Jan Vigne, Question Regarding VPI HW-19
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New member Username: AceboympkPost Number: 1 Registered: Sep-08 | Jan, I've read through about 20 or so threads and your contributions are incredibly helpful. So first, thank you for the significant amount of knowledge and experience sharing you've given to this forum. I don't know how many people have thanked you in the past, but I for one greatly appreciate the time and effort you've devoted to assisting readers. You don't simply answer a question, instead you go into great depth and cross-reference other threads for additional information. Thank you! I have a question regarding a thread from about 4 years ago. You had been using a HW-19 for about 20 years and your belief at the time was that a suspended design had strengths over the solid plinth desig that VPI uses on the Scout. I read about the sandbox and other types of solutions to reduce the vibrations that are more likely with a solid plinth design. However, I'm not really wanting to build infrastructure around a hole in the dam as much as I am wanting to plug the hole. Isolation feet, sandboxes, and other techniques to address the solution provided by a suspended platform seems counter-intuitive. Why not simply go with a suspended design? That brings me to where I am today. I have to make a decision about three different turntables. Two of which are solid plinth, and one is suspended. Well, make that possibly two suspended because I strongly considered the HW-19 for the past year. I don't own a TT other than a Realistic TT from Radio Shack. I hope I didn't destroy any records using it. The link you provided about record care was also very informative. So, I've done my homework, but I'm still struggling. The (now four) turntables I'm looking at are: 1) Linn LP-12 (from the late 70's or early 80's) with a lot of upgrades 2) HW-19 (probably the MK IV 3) Scout with a lot of upgrades making it almost a Scoutmaster 4) Roksan Radius 5 (Brittish built solid plint that has received a lot of awards ~ whatever those are worth) There is a Linn set up guy near me who has worked on them for about 30 years. He knows them inside and out. He sells VPI TT's too and he strongly recommends the Linn. I've read that the Linn has a "sound" to it and either people love it or they don't. Some people describe it as bloated, but I'd imagine that has to do more with set up than anything else. The Linn LP12 is $930 and includes a Grado (ho HUM) Prestige cartridge. I couldn't resist writing it. Sorry.  The HW-19 was one of the first TT's I strongly considered based on NUMEROUS reviews. I think it is a no-brainer that the TT offers excellent results. I see these ALL over the map, but generally speaking around $1500 on average. The Scout seems to be a great bang for the buck solid plinth TT. With all the upgrades to this unit to bring it up to a Scoutmaster and it's under $1400. No cartridge. The Roksan is normally $2200, but I can get it for $1000. New. No cartridge. So, the Linn ($930), Scout ($1400), HW-19 ($1500), or the Roksan ($1000)? I'd apprecaite any direction, though I think you may lean toward the HW-19. You've owned it for 20 years, so you must enjoy it! Can you recommend where to find reliable reviews of cartridges, or would you make a suggestion for the HW-19? Reading the initial reviews about the Sumiko BPS it sounded like the best cartridge for the money. Then the emperor was told no clothes (lean, bright, prone to damage, etc...). How do newbies such as myself know who to believe unless they can put someone's reviews into context. That's why I'm asking you. Regardless of what other people's opinions are, mine seem to mirror yours. So, I'm asking you. Regards, Mark |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10918 Registered: Dec-04 | Hi Mark. That lovely hw-19 table is now in my collection, actually a gift from JV. However, you might be pleased to know that it was only replaced with a Scout. Jan had (and has) a hot-rodded RB250 arm on the scout, just like the HW, I planted a stock RB300 on the Rega ready armboard. JV, will fill you in, better than I can, of course. The HW, while not in service at the moment, gave me a chance to try the table in suspended and solid mounting. JV used solid points for the table, and so I decided would I, after trying it both ways. Truth be told, I had the table on points on a carpeted floor, but got a good feel for the player both ways, and I must agree that the vpi really does it's best on solid plinth mounts. Mike Wodek here has the Linn, and JV has played with that table a bunch with Mike, MW will be able to tell you anything tht you need to know about the lp12. Cheers! |
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New member Username: AceboympkPost Number: 2 Registered: Sep-08 | Thanks Nuck. I'm kind of surprised that JV transitioned to a Scout. Now my world is upside down! Jeez, what am I to do? First, I thought the HW-19, then the Scout, then the Linn, then the Roksan. If I'm going with a solid plinth, the Roksan gives the Scout some serious competition. I know any of these players are going to be a terrific first TT. And, I will experiment every couple of years. So, it isn't as though I'm not going to get another TT in the future. The question I have is whether or not to go with a solid plinth or suspended design. I know these are only questions I can answer, but I don't have the luxury of trialing the different designs. The internet has given people an opportunity to get more information than before (when only trade pubs offered reviews). And, buyers can now source equipment from all over the country (and the world) to find outstanding deals. But, that amount of information and access to so many different products causes stress for me. As a buyer I want to make the best decision possible. Now it's down to four players and two designs. Fortunately, none of the four are direct drive players. Anyway, thanks for the heads up. I've got to make a decision quickly. I'm sure I'll be happy with any of the four, but like everyone else I want to bring in the best for me. And there's the rub. One man's treasure... Regards, Mark |
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New member Username: AceboympkPost Number: 3 Registered: Sep-08 | I love when I can answer my own question. Thank Al Gore for the internet! This is a review between the Roksy and the Scout: http://www.10audio.com/roksan_v_nima.htm I'll go with the Roksy. I think the Scout has many more options available to it, but for $1k I can't go wrong with the Roksy. I'll put the additional $$$ into a good MC cart and call it the day. I wish I knew which cart to go with. I think I'll try the Clearaudio Aurum Beta S or the Grado Sonata. Hopefully the motor being off the main part of the plinth will not cause the typical Grado hum that I've read so much about if I go with it. Please continue to add to the thread with the hopes that someone else will benefit as I have from the excellent contributions from you folks. Oh, and I'll let you know when the table arrives and I get it set up. Regards, Mark |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1465 Registered: May-06 | This is the isolation and suspension I have employed for my Linn. There are two ways to go, isolation or suspension, and I am using both. The flower pot tray is filled with sand. The boards are MDF. Those are plumbing end caps and racquetballs. Lastly the little wooden tiles are Jenga game pieces.  Back to your options; perhaps you could add your preferences for what you listen for, familiarity to live music, what you listen to primarily, your room, and what gear you have in place. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1466 Registered: May-06 | Cartridges are a whole different animal. Might want JV to weigh in there too. |
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New member Username: AceboympkPost Number: 4 Registered: Sep-08 | Anyone who comes across this thread, there seems to be a great deal of praise for the Denon DL-103R. Many varities of the DL-103, some questionable like the SA (on the Denon website, but it appears to be the 103R with an upgraded body instead of the black plastic body on the "standard" 103R). The DL-103 PRO does not appear on the Denon website, and it MAY be a specific unit from one vendor. The "standard" 103R sells for about $275 on ebay with shipping. There is A LOT of history with these carts and the 103R seems to elevate this to be a spectacular buy. Some specs that I pulled from a review on Agon: The DL103R is a low-output moving coil type cartridge. It has .27mv output and an internal impedance of 14 ohms. The weight is 8.5 grams. It tracks at 2.4 - 2.8 grams. It has a spherical stylus with a surface hardness orientation toward the contact surfaces. The cantilever is double walled aluminum. The coils are wound of 99.9999%(6N) oxygen free copper. Compliance is 5 cu. The differences between the 103 and 103R, are the OFC copper windings, and a lighter coil structure. The output is slightly lower than the regular 103. The internal impedance of the 103R is lower than the regular 103(40 ohms). All the other specifications are the same. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?ranlg&1034089946 Here is another review about the DL-103R: http://www.10audio.com/denon_103r.htm Oddly enough, the reviewer also uses the Roksy that I'm buying. So, there may be more synergy with this specific TT. Thus, YMMV. There also is an upgrade for the DIY crowd available from Uwe in Belgium for the "standard" 103R. Here is a pdf with more info: http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp6_pics/Classifieds/Uwe%20Bodies/Bodies3-1 .pdf To reach Uwe use this email: Anette.Bretschneider@post.rwth-aachen.de The premise is that replacing the plastic body with a wooden body opens up this cart to new levels (basically what the SA version does). A lot of risk associated with changing the body, so do your homework. I'm going to try the 103R and then I'll buy the body replacement from Uwe if I feel confident about my DIY abilities and if the "standard" 103R isn't fulfilling. May be worth the $150. Regards, Mark |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3041 Registered: May-05 | Mark, All the tables you mentioned are excellent tables. You can't go wrong with either of them. Suspended and sloid tables have their pluses and minuses. One isn't inherently better than the other IMO. Either one, designed correctly, and just as importantly set up correctly, will give excellent results. If the Roksan was the least expensive, you're just as happy with it as anything else, and you don't plan on keeping it forever (although you may), its a no brainer. The Denon cartridges have been around for a long time and are a lot of people's favorite for good reason. Zu Audio sells modified versons of them if you're interested - http://www.zuaudio.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=4 I think they use a metal body and I think a few other differences. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1467 Registered: May-06 | Mark, JV had provided me this link recently. http://stereophile.com/artdudleylistening/1007listen/ I am now lining up in my sights a Zu and perhaps a K&K phono transformer. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13033 Registered: May-04 | . Looks like there's not much for me to add since you've already made your decisions. I replaced the twenty five year old, upgraded/modified HW19 mkII/mkIII since I had reached the point where I could no longer make further modifications that would substantially improve its sound quality. The mkIV version of the HW19 actually takes into account many of the features that would have made the upgrade from mkII/mkIII status a worthwhile investment. Unfortunately, VPI no longer supports the HW19 with those upgrade parts. So it was scrounge the internet for piece meal improvements or start over with a newer design. I kept my RB300 since it had been upgraded to the point where I hardly could do better without a cost vs. gain ratio that exceded my needs/desires. I have run Grados in that arm for the past twenty years. The inverted main bearing on the Scout closed the deal. Twenty years ago I scoffed at and sold against inverted bearings as they existed on the SOTA's of the day. As Linn had proven a conventional bearing shaft riding in a sintered close toleranced bearing well was the only way to approach decent sound quality. Then the Well Tempered table came along with its Teflon bearings and pre loaded bearing shaft. DOH! Now inverted bearings have improved(?) sufficiently that I see their benefits and accept their superiority. Those WT bearings are still awfully neat though and SOTA is still selling what is basically the same table as they were twenty years ago. Twenty years ago I sold the HW19 jr. with an MDF plinth and minimal suspension as the lower quality table that could later be upgraded to the fully spring loaded, suspended subchassis, acrylic/steel plinth of the HW19 mkII/mkIII/mkIV. Now I've given up the fully suspended, acrylic/steel plinth of the HW19 for the non-suspended MDF plinth of the Scout. I actually paid extra in 1982 for that acrylic/steel plinth on the HW19 as an upgrade from the MDF which was still standard on the table. This was several years before the HW19 jr. was introduced. Hmmmmm ... As to suspended vs. non-suspended, you can achieve high quality sound with any technique if you have the time, money and talent to pour into the project. VPI is now selling a rim drive upgrade for the Scout series. Rim drive is an "ancient" drive method found on classic tables such as the old Thorens and Dual tables from the 1960's and the Garrard 301 transcription tables. It's what drives the platter on the 1940's GE table top radio/phono system that I sometimes use for playing 78's. Rim drive (with all of its inherent problems) was forsaken decades ago in favor of belt or direct drive, both of which also have their advantages and disadvantages. There is very little new in this hobby and we seem all too often to lurch from one moment to the next favoring the hot design culled from five decades hence. Be aware the Denon is a very low output cartidge and you will require a phono pre amp with sufficient gain or a step up device to make it work with most systems. The sound of the 103 is "classic" with the somewhat typical flaws of a budget cartidge (that ancient and outdated conical stylus you know) and the superior strengths of a design made without cost constraints in mind. While it can beat many modern designs in shear listening pleasure its musical performance is exception, IMO, but not absolutely state of the art. The modified versions promise to "correct" a product that needs little in way of improvements. It or its modified versions can serve as an excellent start on a high quality system with minimal financial outlay - if you have the where with all to make it work in your system. At anywhere near the price you will be hard pressed to find a cartridge that is more faithful to the musician's intent though you can certainly find many cartridges that are more tilted toward the pyrotechnics desired by those not familiar with the sound of live music. Good luck. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13035 Registered: May-04 | . Possibly its a mere coincidence these two tables share the current Stereophile.com home page with a picture of the LP12; http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/384vpi/ http://blog.stereophile.com/stephenmejias/project_sapphire_at_the_end_of_the_long_dreamlike_hall/ . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3042 Registered: May-05 | From Jan's thorough and informative post, I've extrapolated a few things... There are few, if any, new designs in turntables. What has made them better in a lot of instances is materials that were costly and/or exotic are either currently commonplace or are inexpensive to produce and/or work with. Modern machinery has made tolerences easier to achieve has pushed the envelope in regards to how close to perfect parts can be made. Its a lot cheaper and easier to make rim drive parts perfectly round to the 9nth degree. They're also far more consistant. I guess that the designs aren't new. What is new is the process by which they're made and the tolerences. In the 50's, a Project Xpression with an acrylic platter, teflon bearing, multi-step laminated plinth, and carbon fiber tonearm would probably have cost at least 100 times what costs today. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11070 Registered: Dec-04 | I am very close to picking up: Denon 103R cartridge Incognito wire kit for the RB300 arm(for later) Classe Thirty preamp, only for the phono. The thirty will get me balanced phono connection ( I like). Does this seem like a fairly good setup? Mostly Rock of various types, no classical, maybe some jazz later. |
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Bronze Member Username: Jl2002Montral, Qubec Canada Post Number: 11 Registered: Dec-07 | Nuck, I would like to know a little bit more about your though of the phono section of the Classe Thirty. thanks jl |
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New member Username: AceboympkPost Number: 5 Registered: Sep-08 | Ok, so I've had the Roksy for about 6 months and although I have absolutely nothing to compare it to, I can say I'm smitten. Maybe ignorace is bliss. I decided on the Dynavector DV-20X MC Low Output cart. I think it is an excellent pairing, though I'd welcome any suggestions that would improve the sound. Simply put, this cart sounds great for the price I paid (thanks Agon). Overall I'm very happy with my set up: Canary CA-903 four chasis pre-amp Canary CA-400 phono stage Roksan Radius V I'm switching from my ASL Hurricanes to either a Yamamoto 45 based amp or a Almarro EL34 based amp. I love the 'canes, but too much for my room and the high efficiency Coincident Super Eclipse III speakers. The Canary has a LOT of gain, so I don't need a pair of mono blocks putting out 200 watts. Thanks again for everyone's help. I'll keep you posted once I switch my amps. I'll be sad to let the 'canes go, but I hope that the new sweetness of the EL34 or 45 tube based amp will help me forget the amazing dynamics and slam of the KT88 based 'canes. Regards, Mark |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13492 Registered: May-04 | . Go for the 45 based amp. |
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Silver Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 302 Registered: Aug-06 | JL, Can you start a new thread and ask Nuck your question? That way, if someone is looking for info on Classe, they'll find it. Nuck will find the thread. Regards, Marc |
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New member Username: AceboympkPost Number: 6 Registered: Sep-08 | "Go for the 45 based amp" Well, there's more to that than I'd care to go into. But, to make a long story short I'd have to get new speakers for the 45 based amp (Cain and Cain, Zu, Avantgarde, etc..) which I don't care to undertake right now. Although the 45 would be superior to the EL34 based amp, many of the reviews say they're a lot closer than they are farther apart. In fact, Tom Evans uses the EL34 in his Linear A and B design. TEAD's amps will simply blow away any amp in its price range to many times more. I've read enough threads and articles about TEAD's amps to confirm that if I had $8k to spend on an amp I'd get his amp over any other amp. Granted the Almarro isn't a TEAD. But, it's also $800 and for $100 Bill from Response Audio will upgrade the caps and the attenuator (it's integrated). Those are the only "shortcomings". Yamamoto's 45 based amp would be ideal, but having to buy new speakers instead of using my Coincidents just isn't in the picture. That being said, if I had $5K I'd be all over the Yamamoto. $3K for the Yam and $2k for a pair of Cain and Cain BEN's on Agon for $2k. That's a STEAL. Alas, the $5k is out of my price range with this economy. So, I'll have to settle for the $800 Almarro. Boo hoo for me. Now I've got to finally let go of my 'canes and the Canary 903. Brutal, but I've got to do what I've got to do. I guess there goes keeping this short. Sorry. Regards, Mark |
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