Chinese gear vs the rest of the world what you get and what you dont get.
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1790 Registered: Jun-05 | I wanna hear everyones preconceived notions and prejudices,benefits,and buying fears.This is a very important topic,so lets get into this subject objectively and seriously. |
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Silver Member Lancaster, Lancashire England Post Number: 713 Registered: Jan-05 | I read an article in the papers that chinese workers really can be workhorses. They'll travel a long way to get a job and they'll stay hard at it all day. Someone who assessed an electronics factory said standards were high and consistent. However, doesn't mean to say all are like that obviously! I must admit, all I've heard is more negative than positive, yet a lot about fantastic value for money. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1793 Registered: Jun-05 | Would you agree the same can be said for american,canadian,and british companies alike? |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1794 Registered: Jun-05 | And to be truthful,when trying to break into a foreign market people usually dont welcome you with open arms.People are always afraid of what they dont know about,its been like this since the beginning of time.People thought this when everyone thought the earth was flat,but we all found out it was round. |
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Silver Member Lancaster, Lancashire England Post Number: 714 Registered: Jan-05 | I honestly cant say. I'd say there are lots of niches in the UK. Canada has a strong reputation for quality speakers. But compared to China, I've not read anything comparing workforce other than the fact of economic development differences. I see what you're saying, theres so many bad things about the world I just try not to get annoyed at them anymore. Audio is one good thing though in my eyes so I try to keep an open mind to it, but do with most things. Cheapest I could find that Qahqin or whatever was about £350 on ebay! Not looked at retailers yet. |
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Gold Member Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7874 Registered: Feb-05 | As I'm gettin' ready for a trip don't have much time to respond. Just consider this a response also to the more provacative post on the Yaqin thread. I never said anything about the quality of the Chinese gear. I ask that folks read the article in a recent audio magazine and consider that just one piece of information. I have hard enough time getting retailers, distributors and manufacturers to back their products as is. I want the kind of accountability that allows me to contact someone directly. I've had to go to distributors and manufacturers in the past to get things right. I'm not one of those folks who put down Japanese or Korean cars back in the day and as you can read here and on my other post I'm not putting down the Chinese gear relative to function...I do find the form to be very unattractive but that's a personal preference thing. For me it's about two things... Acountability...can I call the manufacturer and discuss issues. Not sure, perhaps. The websites are anything but inspiring. Attractiveness...I tend to prefer a minimalist look. I find most Chinese gear to be grotesque in appearance. Before you get excited please look up the definition of that term. I don't mean that it makes makes me wanna puke or anything childish like that. I mean it's just too much for me...too many lights, windows for tubes and all of that. Just doesn't appeal to me....and that's ok. What I've heard so far from the Chinese manufacturers has sounded very good. When they get good responsive distributors (unlike Music Hall) and begin to be styled in a way that I find attractive I wil buy it. I own a Chinese built REL sub and Epos ELS 3 speakers so far so good. The post at the Yaqin thread appeared angry which I find pretty amazing though not unexpected. That I will choose to buy whatever with my money would seem to be irrelevant to what anyone else here should buy. Keep in mind that I stated over there, that the gear Chinese gear I've heard (the big Shanling integrated was mentioned) sounded good. Why would anyone care if I find the piece attractive. Peace man... |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1947 Registered: Jun-07 | Tawaun- Do you feel quality of products are as good as products built in the North American market. Just wondering. In my experience with my job, they usually arn't. However, there are some companies that stride for quality in china, as much as anywhere in the world. The company I work for buy most of the camera's from China. We also have camera's from America. The camera's from America are built better, with better QA. This is because a human puts it together, then checks it over, plugs it in to test it, then boxes it up, and ships it. 80 percent of China factories, push off products on a line. Large quantities are a must, with low paid employees being pushed to the limit. This is always going to cause a much higher rate of QA issues, and defective products. I have seen this with in the quality of products we get at my work. Take a company like McIntosh or Bryston. Designed by Engineers that work closely with the rest of the company. The product is built, mostly by human. QC'd by a human. Tested to meet standards. Checked over again. Boxed, shipped. This is not the case when it comes to companies like NAD, Rotel, CA who just buy into the cheapest bidder. This is just my view, I could be way off to what actually goes on. |
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Platinum Member Post Number: 10865 Registered: Dec-04 | If you want a hand built classe amp, pay classe money. |
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Silver Member Richmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 137 Registered: Jun-08 | It's not the fact that it's built in China by Chinese, it's the quality controls, process management and workforce management that matter. There are many companies successfully manufacturing their speakers etc. in China but they are setting specifications and managing the process, accordingly. When it comes down to it, it's not the fact that it's designed and built in China but rather the reputation and track record of the company that's running the process. If these Chinese manufactures build a good track record then why not buy their equipment. Right now, I don't think sufficient time has passed to have gained customer confidence, hence this thread, but every once and again one could stumble upon a Chinese company that's doing it right. Tawaun, from your testimonials, it sounds like you have found one - so good for you in spreading the word. Cheers! |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1795 Registered: Jun-05 | Nuck,I've been around Classe for years,but I've yet to hear 1 sound better than the 3.8SE,I've always found their bass to be lacking somewhat,so I could have Classe at the blink of the eye if I choose.So I guess this goes back to George's question,well for the money yes,the Purer costs $1095,and I'm very sure that nothing even remotely close to that price is close,and I mean nothing. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1796 Registered: Jun-05 | Art,this thread has absolutely nothing to do with you,its just what the title says,and not how gross chinese gear looks to you,but since your taking it upon yourself to try to be the center of attention.Lets take a look at your amps your best amp rather,and the speciafications compared to something Chinese at the Rega's price? Well considering the The 3.8SE is in te Rega's pricerange seems like a fair comparison,but in reality it isnt close,ok...Mr. what looks the best lets leave that unfair comparison alone,how about the Bada 222,thats more fair for half the cost,but still in specification it isnt close,you guys see where im going with this? |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1798 Registered: Jun-05 | And Art this isnt a my stuff verse' your stuff thread before you blow a gasket,this is specification verse's specification,for people to see and compare. |
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Silver Member Richmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 138 Registered: Jun-08 | Hey Tawaun, Can we get a little more detailed here and lay out specification vs. specification of models / brands. Though specs. don't say it all so could we also describe the differences in sound between brands/models? What would be a brand/model that would be a good comparision is spec. and sound quality to the 3.8SE? How much would you have to spend. It would be good if we could keep this as objective as possible (accepting that sound is always subjective). If we keep it objective, it will be more convincing. I am interested in this. |
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Gold Member Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7878 Registered: Feb-05 | Tawaun you don't get it and I'm sorry for that. I wasn't blowing a gasket...I have bigger fish to fry today. I'll be in Houston by sundown. Gear is the least of my concerns. I was simply stating how I feel about the issue as you originally stated it...which said nothing about specs. And as I've said to Ashman I have very little interest in specs. Tawauan...anger management man...lol! Just kidding! See ya'll later. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1799 Registered: Jun-05 | For instance it would take the new Rega Elicit from Rega to come close to the Purer 3.8SE and when I look at that amp,its the most serious amp I'v ever seen from Rega,and its very impessive in specification,but still a long way off from the 3.8SE.It says heavily biased in class A,which im guessing here is only 10 watts or so,im comparing here this isnt a pissint match but just going by speciafication is a long ways off.Now if I didnt have the 3.8SE or I didn know about it would be 1 I would strongly consider,which im guessing it costs about $2500.So which would you buy with your money is the question when looking at this more openly things start to look a whole lot different.Bada also has a smaller amp than the 3.8SE the 3.3 it puts out 30 watts in class A,which the Elicit will still be off of those specs by a good amount.I do know the fear's of buying Chinese,Yaqin as a company is no Bada,Shanling,Conisence,Xindak,or a Dodge,but they are right where Nad and Rotel would be in the Asian market,but then again some of their more expensive looks far beyond any Nad or Rotel.Another thing to me in most cases bulk in audio is a lovely thing it means solid well built,quality parts,check out some these guys parts,they are using what the BIG BOYS are using.Here in N.America its always been about bulk,we love big shite,and when it comes to amps the more bulk the better outside of class D and Tripathamps,you guys decide the specs on this gear is at your disposal to compare with the American,Canadian,and,British gear and so are the prices. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1800 Registered: Jun-05 | Im not saying measurements Art,like Ashman no...no,you already know where I sit with that,specifications is different we all strive for good specs dont we?Hey no anger here partner we are all family, I just want you to all have the best that you can have for your dollars,I want us all to be in musical bliss,its unfortunate that dollars usually dictates how much of that we can have,China is tearing them rules apart and people really need to pay attnetion. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1801 Registered: Jun-05 | George 80 watts of pure Class is usually a lot of coin,Accuphase has a 30 watt class A intergrated and its costs $10k Luxman has 1 thats 20 watts and it stil costs $4k,you make a few suggestions,you can use other Chinese amps to,because 3.8SE is a really hard amp to match up with spec wise. |
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Gold Member Albany, New York Post Number: 1226 Registered: Nov-06 | Do you watch p0rn in surround sound? |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1802 Registered: Jun-05 | Gavin,what do you mean? |
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Gold Member Irvington, New York USA Post Number: 3026 Registered: May-05 | I'm not trying to get political here, and my opinion on them has nothing to do with racism. I avoid Chinese and any 3rd World Communist Country products I can. I don't agree with the way they their government treats their people. Not just the employees, but their people as a whole. Some products are unavoidable. I don't read every single label, but I try to make it part of my decision making. A lot of people say they don't agree with the way a lot of these countries treat their people, yet they don't think twice about buying their products to save a few bucks. Nothing speaks louder than money. People can say anything they want, but their truest priorities are almost always reflected in how they spend their money. Everyone has the right to do whatever they wish with their money, and I'm not passing judgment on anyone. I'm just stating part of why I have zero interest in the Chinese gear. Another reason why I have no interest is because their parts content and spec claims do nothing for me. I couldn't care less whether an amp will do 5 watts or 5000 watts in Class A. It makes no difference to me if they're using WBT connectors or Magic Gate caps, and so on. I don't care about what parts are used, so long as they don't fail and they're used properly. It seems like they're using this stuff because it'll add legitimacy rather than using it because it fits the design. Does Mac use WBT connectors because they'll sell more amps if they do (if they use them)? No. Does Bryston use Magic Gate caps (if they do) because they'll sell more amps? No. Companies like these use them because that specific part best fits the design, rather than the design best fits the parts. It kind of reminds me of the low end of the car market. My father owns a foreign car garage. The Hyundais, Kias, Daewoo, and so on are good for the money, but not much more. They have a bunch of luxury options like leather interior, GPS, and garage door openers. Some have V6 and even V8 engines. They use stuff like Bosch Platinum spark plugs. These are a distraction. They're not the best engineered cars, nor are they the most reliable in the long term. Ever see a 10 year old Kia worth fixing? If a Hyundai engine goes, is it really worth putting a new one in? On the flip side, how many 15 year old Hondas aren't worth fixing? How many BMWs go under 200k miles? To quote my Naim dealer - "Ever see a Porsche that's too old?" My Volvo 850 Turbo has 215k on it. My brother's 850 has 295k. And as crazy as it sounds, both will definitely be worth replacing the engine when the time comes. That's not going to be any time soon though. Then there's the issue of worth. Will the Chinese gear be worth fixing if it breaks 1 year after the warrantee ends? What about after 5 years? 20 years? Only time will tell. For $2600, would I rather have a brand new B60 or 2 $1300 Chinese amps? How about 10 $260 amps? I'll stick with one B60 over any of this stuff. I don't have anything against the gear, but it's going to take a while for me to take any of them seriously. If we're talking about budget gear that we're buying because we can't afford to buy anything else, then it's a good thing. But that's not what we're discussing. We're talking about them being the next big thing. Mac, Bryston, Classe, Naim, and so on didn't become well respected stuff that holds its value very well overnight. It took a very long time. Until the Chinese gear can prove they deserve to be in the same conversation, I have zero interest. |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1950 Registered: Jun-07 | "Well considering the The 3.8SE is in te Rega's pricerange seems like a fair comparison,but in reality it isnt close,ok..." "For instance it would take the new Rega Elicit from Rega to come close to the Purer 3.8SE and when I look at that amp,its the most serious amp I'v ever seen from Rega,and its very impessive in specification,but still a long way off from the 3.8SE" How do you know the next guy wouldn't enjoy the Rega better? Is this a thread about your new amp Tawaun? Who are you to say that the 3.8 whatever is better than anything else to someone else listening. Stu- SPOT ON!! Well said my friend. SPOT ON!!! Also, to add, I will buy Canadian made goods first to support my economy. Not China's, who get their economy to where it is today by treating their people like slaves. If I have to pay 3 times more money to get the same quality out of Canada, then so be it. It will at least hold its value, keep people in my country employed, who make REAL wages, and work 8 HOUR shifts. Do we really save THAT much when we have to pay 700 dollars in shipping just to get the stuff over here? Then what? You buy it un-heard? There isn't a Hi-Fi shop in my province that sells any of the products you mentioned? To their loss I suppose right?lol. If I can't hear it first, I am not going to buy it. Again, Tawaun, this is not about your new 3.8 amp. As I am sure, its the best thing ever made.lol. I just will never hear it, and personally, don't want to if its made in China. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1803 Registered: Jun-05 | Im about what something proves to me all the companies you have named Stu,i have heard, some of their stuff I've like some of it I havent.I would choose the Puerer 3.8SE over the B60 everytime,the B60 isnt enough amp for what I want.Furthermore your statement about how the Chinese treat their people,we in america,dont treat our people all that well either, the only diffeence is we so called have freedom we have a liscence to screw over people here,so me personally i can give a hoot about politics or country loyalty when it comes to audio.The Chinese are very passionate about music,we would'nt be seeing a come backin tubes if it wasnt for them.A hyundai is no comparison to a Bada,Shanling,Conassence,or Xindak,function goes into their cars passion goes into their audio gear,thats a big difference.Specs and what something does in class A does count,your crazy if you think it doesent,as a matter of fact no pun intended but thats 1 of many things that makes the 3.8SE better than the B60.So I guess the question is are people willing to have something that perform's on a lower level or something of similar priced that performs on a higher level,apparently beliefs and cultures are playing a part in this,but people dont mind for the favorite company to have gear built in China,seems like a 2-way barrel to me. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1804 Registered: Jun-05 | No its not about my amp Nick,it just so happens to be a good baises for comparisons,but what seems to be bothering most of you that "claim specs doesent matter to you" actually really does,I'll use another Chinese amp if it makes you happy.And you people kill me that everything is a opinion thats ludicriss,better build and better parts usually equal better performance. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1805 Registered: Jun-05 | Well Nick,since you feel so strongly about "made in china" why dont you sell your RS6's then,because they aint made in UK,where are they made? |
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Platinum Member Post Number: 10871 Registered: Dec-04 | Uhhh, ok TW. I prefer to veer towards products that are produced in an environment that promotes responsibilities in the waste department. China is a vast wasteland of dumping. Producing electronics is a very dirty business, and their record(when you can find one) is sorry in the state of dumping mercury, cadmium and various other poisons in the nearest creek where locals go to pissss and fish out of poverty. No thanks. Any business that is enshrined in greatness and some sort of empowerement is simply a pawn of the government, which sends good workers there out of entitlement of having no children, oh wait, the govt let them have one male. Fukc the assssholes, fukc the government, fukc the chink assssshole commies and fukc the asesss that buy shite from commie coksuckers who make the shite. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1807 Registered: Jun-05 | Well,I buy from them Nuck,I guess you mean Fukc me then huhh? |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1808 Registered: Jun-05 | And guess what im about to add some commie speakers to my collection to |
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Gold Member Irvington, New York USA Post Number: 3027 Registered: May-05 | "...but people dont mind for the favorite company to have gear built in China,seems like a 2-way barrel to me." A lot of people do. If Bryston moved to China, a lot of their hard core followers would. Not all, maybe not even the majority, but a good number would. Same for the companies I listed. Like I said before - Anyone can say what they want, but money talks. Most people's wallets will tell you far more about their true priorities than their voices. And for what it's worth, none of my present gear is made in a 3rd World country. From the power cables to the speakers themselves. Maybe the battery in the remote is. Not sure where Energizers are made. Maybe the CDs too. You took my "I don't care if an amp will do 5 watts or 5ooo watts in class A" wrong. I don't care about the specs, I care about how it sounds. I don't care if my B60 is Class A, A/B, B, D, T, or anything else. All I care about in this regard is how it sounds. "we in america,dont treat our people all that well either, the only diffeence is we so called have freedom we have a liscence to screw over people here." Its far from perfect here. But its so much closer to perfect that it is over there. How many Chinese come here to get away from that? How many Americans are going to China to get away from this government? Nothing more needs to be said about that. "The Chinese are very passionate about music,we would'nt be seeing a come backin tubes if it wasnt for them." They made them more affordable. I don't think they're the sole reason though. Mac, BAT, Audio Research, and a bunch of others never went away. They've always been doing what they've been doing. In the words of LL Cool J - "Don't call it a comeback; I've been here for years." I'm not bashing your gear Tawaun. I'm glad you're happy with it. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1809 Registered: Jun-05 | Your right Stu,Mac,AR,BAT,CJ and a few others have been here for the long haul,but at a more and more increasing cost.The Chinese have put the fun back in tube audio,good prices and more nuetral sounds to boot.See Stu I feel the US,UK,and Canada have shut the working man out of tru highend,I dont feel like giving my money away and getting less,and thats exactly what we are getting,only the rich can enjoy true highend these days,and China is giving the average man,the chance to enjoy these riches and not dream about it.Stu im not new to this I've been in this I've been at this game a long time from a consmer and a retailer,this thinking of mine hasnt come overnite.I didnt plan on this thread being more about politics than audio,which audio is what it should be about,especially seeing that many of our usual suspects in audio are built in China these days it seems like a lot hyporcritical on ecoustics.Stu as a matter of fact many fammilies in the military are moving to China,my wife just asked me would I be interrested in going to S.Korea,I said no,but if it was Hong Kong I would be down for that. |
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Platinum Member Post Number: 10872 Registered: Dec-04 | TW, if you want to send money to China, then do so, and enjoy the rewards that it provides. If it means better music, then do so, and order some chinese music with it. I have read into it more than a little bit, and you get what you pay for. Enjoy the asian stuff, TW. As they poison their rivers with mercury,cadmium, arsenic and germanium, all used to make the stuff that they pawn off. Dude, you will come back with a maker that is responsible, surely, but the large margin throw enough shite in the creek out back to make a whole village of 2 headed babies. It is a house of paper. Fukc the commies who run this shithole, and fukc the people who willingly support the asholes. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1811 Registered: Jun-05 | Nuck I am getting what I pay for and then some over and over again,but I cant say the same for you keep giving your money away for less I dont think im entitled to do that with my hard earned dollars and neither is anyone else.And another thing Nuck,if you are trying to say fukc me,than say it be a man about it,where im from we say what we feel so say it,I hate it when somebody beats around the bush,but your really saying it in your head,STEP UP HOMEY! and another thing I happen to like Chinese culture and I have chinese friends,So I'll start this man shite for you FUKC YOU!!! you have no right to dis a whole culture like that Canada aint fantasy land I showed my chinese friend what you said a audiophile he and was real pised off,you need to watch what you say! |
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Silver Member Richmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 139 Registered: Jun-08 | Tawaun, you seem to have a lot of experience with gear...you also own a lot and it seems that from all the gear you've listened to you've found that the Bada and Yaqin amps are the best. You've also stated that the Infinity speakers are near to the best bang for buck...so you must now be in audio heaven, enjoy it - I'm happy for you and only could dream to have that type of total audio satisfaction. I wouldn't worry about the politics of the purchase, you can't change the machine. And let's not get into politics...there is no country that is without it's guilt. If they arn't poisoning the water, they are fighting wars, burning fossil fuels etc...but let's not point any fingers. I want to hear about the gear, I only wish I could actually hear it. I'm interested in the audio talk, enjoying the music...the world is full of arguments, wars and racism. Let's put all that crap aside and just talk about the music and the gear. Tawaun is obviously happy with his gear so I'm not going to mess with that. I just want to honestly understand why...is he on to something. Not that I'm going to buy without hearing and being risk averse will probably not order from where I can't return easily but if this gear does ever arrive here I want to have the scoop. When it comes down to it audio gear is a luxury..a hobby...that's it. We're not saving the world. That said, I really haven't heard a good description of what this gear sounds like, spec's aside, how does it sound? Be descriptive. Give us a detailed review. Then we can break down the +s and -s. Thanks for listening to my sermon. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1812 Registered: Jun-05 | George good man there,im gonna give a good review 2morro on a few items,Nuck I would be a bigger man an appologize to you but im not,I think you owe the whole country of China a appology.As much as I value your audio opinion and like and respect you as a person,until you do that I wont converse with you anymore and if that means never well thats just what thats means.Its a shame that it has come to this,most on this forum turned this to a political debate,and I expected audio talk but we didnt get that for that I am very dissapointed and the close minededness was even more more dissapointing,after looking at my buddies face,and seeing the hurt from his eyes,thats the way I gotts to deal with it,especially since I told him this is my home forum,and I love all the guys here,that really hurt.George tomorrow I will give a several reviews some speakers to other than the the Infinities,thanks gentleman good night. |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1951 Registered: Jun-07 | Tawaun- You claim the 3.8 is a better product than the B60? You say Better as in how? To YOU!? perhaps. What about the next guy. I didn't see the 3.8 win product of the year by 5 different world wide magazines. I never heard the 3.8 mentioned in the same discussion of the best sounding Integrated amps of ALL TIME!! like the B60 has many times. So who are you, one man, to claim that your amp is better than anything Bryston, Rega, Naim all make? Get real man. If you have heard all of them, and feel this way, that is cool. That is your ears. And hey, I am down with your opinion. But doesn't mean the next guy wouldn't feel totally different about it. Your comment about Canada not being perfect. Hey, what Country is? But I tell you something, compared to the rest of the world...its looking pretty F#$Cking sweet right now. The only country, personally, I would consider to live in other than Canada is Australia. I understand maybe, you are a bit bias to China, as we are against it. Perhaps this threat wasn't such a good idea in that case. Just a thought. |
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Silver Member ChicagoUsa Post Number: 403 Registered: Mar-04 | Oh yea, well the Nad M3 is superior to the B-60! Oh, we already did that one. I do have to admit pacific valve has some interesting looking gear. |
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Platinum Member Post Number: 10874 Registered: Dec-04 | TW, I got a lot of my info from my buddy Zyang. He ain't Irish. And he escaped to Canada. Dude sould have been in Atlanta, but ended up here, because escaping is just that. Mean cook this guy is. I value chinese culture, they have done well over the last bazillion years. The place is run by tyrants and they murder female infants for no more than being female. They poison the environment on scales not to be imagined, only to sell trinkets to Walmart, while doing so with the slave labour of children with AK47's at their heads. You will likely come back with something like 'it's not like that', but Zyang tells the living truth. I have heard some really good Asian gear, and I have a small tube amp (Dared) I will drop the drunken vitriole, but I do not apologize to anyone when I am right, and in this rare case, I am. Looking forward to some specifics on the gear, TW, an absolute bargain to be sure. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1813 Registered: Jun-05 | Me and my friend,Xong Zui had a long talk about China,last night as a country,We read over most of the audio companies last nite,and their history and their work eviorment.These are the following well known companies that cared about the land and the people and its employeee's get decent pay according to Xongs translation of their sites.Shanling,Consisense,Xindak,Original,Classic,Dunssan,Shenya(Vincent),Shauga ng(Jolida).,MHSZ,Yaqin,Swan(HiVi),and Bada,So buying from them doesent mean you are paying for a tyrant goverment.These are just some of the 1's we read about,unfortuanetly I cant say the same thing for Melody they are very well known for their treacheries and this company is Austrailian who would figure,so as much as both of like those products we wont buy them,anymore.It seems that most of the audio comapanies care about their country and their people.Now in this thread for now on if you wanna still talk about politics go somewhere else,thats not what this thread is about,becuase the bottom line is that the US,UK,and Canada and many other countries have much to criticize about,now moving on... |
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Platinum Member Post Number: 10878 Registered: Dec-04 | How is the gear running in, TW? |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1959 Registered: Jun-07 | I would love to hear how much Canada has to Criticize about Tauwan. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1814 Registered: Jun-05 | Its running in good Nuck,its lifted my audio listening to another realm,and thats never happened before,and that was before I started running all balanced,and its hard to believe that the Classia C336 can convay all this music,no sub $2k speaker is supposed to this,but hey im glad it does. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1815 Registered: Jun-05 | A new thread,is coming in about a hour on the Acculine A3R in another thread,Jon Lane is also willing to send a few pairs round to you guy to check out.he asked me who to send some to,I said without hessitation my home forum eccoustics,its about time for us all to listen to some good speakers again like the old days,Wonder where Edster is......and where's my homie David at?well get ready we're gonna have some fun. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1816 Registered: Jun-05 | Hey,Nick you little ecoustics new comer,if you dont have anything to contribute,stay out of this thread,or I'll make sure that you do,got it? |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1960 Registered: Jun-07 | Not sure I follow Tawaun. No worries, I will stay out of this thread, as I have no interest in hearing about China audio companies. Cheers. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1818 Registered: Jun-05 | No,I want you stay Nick,You wanna know why the I think the 3.8SE is better than the the B60,your gonna find out why,when I write a full review on it.This thread is to discuss Chinese gear so thats what we're gonna do,the usual suspects arent the only 1's that make great audio gear,China does and they deserve thier just everyone else. |
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Gold Member Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1459 Registered: May-06 | TW, You, not us, started this thread with "I wanna hear everyones preconceived notions and prejudices,benefits,and buying fears.This is a very important topic,so lets get into this subject objectively and seriously.". So you don't like what some of us post and you go off on folks like some lord and purveyor. Your comments about specs, then deflecting further that it is not about measurements does not make much sense to me. As others have alluded to, how do specs sound? Speaking of sound, where are you listening to your Chinese gear? You yourself just posted recently in another thread that your next place will have a room worthy of the equipment. For someone who requested preconceived notions and prejudices you come off as highly defensive and having your own preconceived notions and prejudices to those who are not in line with your thinking. What does that have to do with gear? And in answer to the OP's original question; I tend to align strongly with Stu's comments about human rights and Nuck's comments specific to polution (not the country nor any personal attack). To which I will add I have no interest in support of a country which has poisoned and killed thousands of family pets in my country and who continues to send lead tainted toys to our children. That stuff I do take personal and I believe it to be deliberate. I too have many Asian friends and thoroughly enjoy their cuisine, and before you ask, yes I watched the Olympics this year as I was proud of my country's athletic efforts. At one point "made in Japan" was a long standing joke, and they got it right so they could compete in world commerce. We also went to war with them. I was not alive at that time so I do not know if they were viewed then like China is now, but I do not recall hearing the criticisms here against China in relation to Japan in my lifetime. |
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Silver Member ChicagoUsa Post Number: 404 Registered: Mar-04 | http://nowhearthisblog.blogspot.com |
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Gold Member Irvington, New York USA Post Number: 3028 Registered: May-05 | "For someone who requested preconceived notions and prejudices you come off as highly defensive and having your own preconceived notions and prejudices to those who are not in line with your thinking." I was thinking the same thing, as I'm sure many others were as well. You stated it more articulately than I could have. FWIW, my view of how the Chinese government treats its people includes what Mike and Nuck have said. Anyone remember what happened in Tienamen Square? Remember why it happened? If not, I'm sure a Google search will fill you in. People think we should lift the boycott on Cuba. People also think we should ease restrictions on visiting there. I wasn't born yet, but I do remember hearing about the Cuban Missle Crisis. If you haven't heard about that one... Google. I think Socialist governments, especially China, are the biggest contradiction there is. Governments like China look at Capitalist societies as greedy, money worshipping, evil societies. Perhaps. But if it weren't for Capitalists, where would China's economy be, and where would it be heading? If all the Capitalists boycotted eveything "Made In China", who would they sell any goods to? A few other socialists? Cuba and the few small socialist/communist Asian countries aren't exactly the ones buying high-end commodities. Add to that China's outright and blatant disregard for the environment and humanity. Its pretty safe to say everyone worships the almighty buck. China takes it up a couple of levels. I have ZERO interest in China's audio gear. I don't care if it sounds 10x better than anything else for 1/100th the cost. I'm quite happy with what I've got. The only positive I see from it all is that maybe, just maybe, they'll keep my favorite companies on their toes. I'm done being political. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1819 Registered: Jun-05 | Maybe your right Micheal,I did react strongly and defensive,but you have to admit others were very narrow minded as well im talking about audio not politics audio is 1 of the very few fragile things in life that gets you away from this disruptive world.Change is a hard thing to understand,but it always happens and it always will,its called evalution.We all need to be open minded to, its about the audio,and the fact is China is providing that in spades.Our main market has jacked up the prices,now budget gear costs what midpriced gear costs,and midpriced gear costs what highend gear does and I dont even wanna talk about what highend gear costs.China sells highend gear for budget prices,and im gonna spend a lot time swimming in it and so are many others,infact its already happening.The Fact is if Bryston or any of the other big ballers were seling the 3.8SE it would cost atleast $8k to $10K.Specs matters I know all you wish it didnt but it does,for example the Gallo 3.1's sound a lot better going down to 22htz than only playing to 34 htz without the subamp dont they? Specs help indicate what something does and why,and if their not impressive enough we move along to something else. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1820 Registered: Jun-05 | With your thinking Stu,their gonna do more than put your favorite companies on their toes,their gonna run them out of buisness,so as long as the US,Canada,the UK,and the rest of the audio industry keep their rediculous prices and rediculous performance unless you pay a luxury car payment, money I'll be buying my electronics from them,speakers are a a another matter. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1821 Registered: Jun-05 | UI thats a outstanding read,good stuff right there! |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1822 Registered: Jun-05 | There is a very recent review on the Xindak XA6950 on the www.stereomojo.com and the reviewer owns the Bryston B100-DA SST intergrated amp.He bought the XA6950 which retails for $1295 thru Lotus imports it was the review sample he said he could'nt part with it and he said he didnt even need another amp at the time because he had the B100. You can get the XA6950 cheaper on ebay between $650 to $800 from venders that have 100% feedback such as Listenupchina that I purchased from. The XA6950 is 100 watts class A/B in 8ohms and its Class A up to 30 watts 8ohms.The reviewer said that it bested the B100 in every way the B100 retails for $4395,the reviewer bought the XA6950 and moved the B100 to the family room While the Xindak now takes up space in his man only room.The 6950 weighs 60lbs while the B100 weighs 30lbs,I considered this amp because it was a bit cheaper,but the 3.8SE is a better amp by a large margain.To be fair to the B100,my friend Xong has and it is a oustanding amp with a worldclass built in Dac,I actually like it better than the 2b and the 3b,this amp gives you the lot and $4395 isnt a lot for all the goodies this babe offers.Anyway Xong is selling his B100 and getting either the XA6950 or the Bada Purer 3.3 and a Chinese CDP,I told him to keep it,but for all the money he payed for the B100 he could'nt get the BCD-1,he feels he's coming out cheaper and better,he likes the 3.8SE but we are competeitve,he says he's gonna beat me out and make up the difference with his CDP,he is planning on going with E-Sound's top CDP which has been said to be the best CDP in Asia and even some over here in the states have have said it is th best CDP you can ,it retails for $2500.damn wish I was getting that player,he also has a pair of RS6's as his main speakers a pair of Wharfedale 9'1's which anchor his home theater.But anyway enjoy the read on the 6950 on the stereomojo. |
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Bronze Member Post Number: 77 Registered: Dec-06 | Ever see a 10 year old Kia worth fixing? If a Hyundai engine goes, is it really worth putting a new one in? On the flip side, how many 15 year old Hondas aren't worth fixing? How many BMWs go under 200k miles? To quote my Naim dealer - "Ever see a Porsche that's too old?" My Volvo 850 Turbo has 215k on it. My brother's 850 has 295k. And as crazy as it sounds, both will definitely be worth replacing the engine when the time comes. That's not going to be any time soon though. Volvo and BMW make great cars, but they are notorious for poor reliability, as are companies like VW, Audi, and Mercedes. Japanese cars (namely Honda and Toyota) are vastly overrated (google Toyota and "engine sludge" or "camshafts"; google Honda and "transmission"; people may be surprised), not to mention Japan doesn't allow companies from other countries to compete in their market. The US and Europe does however. Maybe we should slap Japanese cars with a big ol' tariff. I'll stick to the good ol' US of A. My '97 Grand Prix has given me next to no problems, and it was $5K cheaper than a comparably equipped Accord or Camry (ie. power everything, V6 engine, ABS, traction control, 4 wheel disc brakes) and was also more fun to drive. Buying it over those other cars was a no brainer (though the Nissan Altima was pretty good); and now, almost 12 years later with no problems why would I not buy another American car? Especially with Ford and GM having improved build quality and fuel efficiency as much as they have (I admit they did become too complacent and fell behind the Japanese in some respects, but this was always overblown). It's funny how we never hear about the successes of GM/Ford/Chrysler from the Honda and Toyota loving media. Consumer Reports, to it's credit, did recently predict the Ford Fusion to have better long term reliability than both the Accord and Camry, however. Sorry, had to get that off my chest. American companies are building great cars and it's ashame people are unwilling to give them a chance. The grass is always greener I guess. Maybe the same can be said for audio. |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1961 Registered: Jun-07 | The American cars are coming along now. As they had to based on the fact they were so far behind the Japanese companies in Engineering. My Uncle has worked for GM for over 30 years. When he got laid off he worked for Honda for half a year until he could get back into the GM plant. He said he couldn't believe the difference in the Honda plant when it came to quality control. On a GM line, if they find a faulty part, they throw it in a big bin to be refurbished and put back on the line. In the Honda plant, if they find ONE bad part. They stop the belt, throw all the parts in the garbage. Re-assess the part, then re-make a weeks worth of parts for the next week of shipment. Thats why the Japanese engines last longer, in most cases. However, because of the fall behind in technology, and engineering, the American car companies are really picking up their game coming out with much much better cars. Is it too late? Only time will tell. Anyway, this isn't about Audio, so I am about to get in trouble by the boss of ecoustics. So I will leave now. Back to Tauwan- oh mighty Ecoustics god of the chinese audio companies. * On my hands and knees* Oh mighty audio expert, master of Ecoustics. I guess your going to make sure I don't post anymore. OH OHHHHH!!!!! |
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Gold Member Australia Post Number: 2000 Registered: Nov-05 | Message to Nuck: I've bought Chinese made speakers, an amp made in Taiwan and so forth. The company my wife works for gets their stock made in China and if they couldn't, she wouldn't have a job. It's a two way street we buy from them and we export gas, coal and other minerals apart from some produce. Anyway, America is the place the world should emulate??? I don't think so! China has a lot to learn for sure, but they have millions of people who need food and clothes too. They are people just like the rest of us - their government may be something else, but the improvements in that department are happening all the time as their commercial assocation with the rest of the world expands. The amps and speakers are amazing quality and value. Not always evident when from other countries. So f*** us too Nuck! |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1962 Registered: Jun-07 | "Anyway, America is the place the world should emulate??? I don't think so!" Nuck doesn't live in America. Just putting that out there.lol. M.R. - How's the system running? |
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Gold Member Australia Post Number: 2001 Registered: Nov-05 | Actully he does Nick - I didn't say the US of A! Now you can put it back. And the system is fine thanks. |
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Platinum Member Post Number: 10882 Registered: Dec-04 | I never referrent o anything but the government, M.R. Realizing, of course, that the gov't represents 90% of everything there. This having just passed the 10th anniversary of tieneman square display, I was feeling just a little squeemish about espousing large volume trade agreements with barbarians. Have at it folks, there is the B word. And that is what the POS structure is all about over there. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1823 Registered: Jun-05 | Whats wrong Nick? is it the quality of chinese life looking better than you thought,or is it the outstanding quality of their audio gear? To bad that reviewer on the Stereomojo didnt buy the XA6950 1st and just reviewed the 100B SST,he could have saved $4395 and put a used 20 year old Bryston in the family room,but thats what happens when sheep follow other sheep. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1824 Registered: Jun-05 | The US still builds crappy cars,the Vette is the only 1 worth buying,I'll stick with my 650 HP Supra,VW GTI VR6,and Mazda Miata. |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1963 Registered: Jun-07 | Tawaun- I have never once said China made gear wasn't great sounding gear. I never said that once. I just said, I have never agreed with how some of the companies build their products. There is a difference. How they build it is one, how it sounds in a home is another. I am glad that there are other countries into the Hi-Fi gear, such as China. It brings diversity to the hobby. I just hope they can turn around how they treat their employees that are working their (!)'s off making the stuff. At least we can both agree on the cars. I am all about the Japanese/German engineering when it comes to vehicles. My wife and I own two Honda's. Also, I have been to China to a Geovision training course for a week. Trust me, the life over there didn't overly appeal to me. Although, its not THAT bad I suppose. Someone really does have to do something about their sewage backup problems. From the day I stepped off the plan to the time I got back on the plan, all I could smell is human crap. Wah...... |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1825 Registered: Jun-05 | Oh...yeah,Nick when ever you dont want your chinese RS6's,I'll make room for them in my 3rd chinese system Mr.Anti-China. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1826 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah,Nick on a serous note,they are really trying to turn it around in China,atleast they are building things that they can proud of,and make others around the world happy.China has been set in their ways for 1000's of years as long as the muslim countries and none of them have made any attempt to change,hell my wife has been to Iraq twice,and our dauhter is only 5 thats 2 years out of her life.Im gonna give China a shot,what they have done with their economic system in such a little time is astounding,their coming along Im not gonna bet against them,they are certainly the fastest learners on the planet,looking at their economy if anyone can turn it around its them. |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1964 Registered: Jun-07 | They are definitely very smart people indeed. The RS6's are built in china, but who hasnt here owned a product made in china. It is almost impossible not to eventually.lol. Still doesn't mean I like how they do business, but at least they are building good products, especially when under the engineering plans of the UK audio pro's. It appears they are changing their ways, slowly, but surely. Lets hope they keep it up. Hows that big 3.8 working? I see a guy I deal with is selling one and raves about it. It is huge. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1827 Registered: Jun-05 | Nick,its ouststanding,my friend Wong ordered the Xindak 6950,friday,it should be here Wendsday,cant wait to here it. |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1965 Registered: Jun-07 | Cool beans- got any links to that product? |
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Gold Member Ottawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1496 Registered: Feb-07 | I was looking at buying some Xindak cables one day on a whim (I do this a lot), but I balked at it since I couldn't find much info on them. Have you used them TW? |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1828 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah,David they are my refference cables right now,I have the FA-01 interconcects,BC-01 balancedconnects,and FS-1 speakerswire.They beat the pants off of my Kimbre cable which cost more and they are a bit smoother than my expensive W.B.T. cables,Stereotimes just had a very possitive review on the FS-1 speakerwire.Here is Xindak's N.American importer: www.lotusaudioimports.com |
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Gold Member Ottawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1502 Registered: Feb-07 | That's good to know TW. I should have ordered them when I had the chance! |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1966 Registered: Jun-07 | Tawaun - Just a curious question. Has anything that was a North American product ever beat the living pants of any of the china made products to your ears. Regardless of cost? If any, which ones? |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1830 Registered: Jun-05 | David you can also get them from: www.pacificvalve.us they are in Illinois,they also sell Shengya(Vincent),MZHS,Bada,and a few other Chinese companies. |
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Gold Member Ottawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1505 Registered: Feb-07 | Cool, thanks. Shengya(Vincent) - is this the one and the same that builds these? http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VISPT800 |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1831 Registered: Jun-05 | Nick,not anything of similar price the Chinese are pricing very agressive,the Xindak and Bada amps are all about class A biased which to me is as pure a sound you can get.The Purer 3.8SE reminds me of my favorite amp which I think is the best in the world the Plinus SA-Reference it costs $15k here's whats really interresting the SA-Ref puts out 300 watts a channel in 8 ohms and it weighs 125lbs vs the Purer 3.8SE 138 watts a channel in 8 ohms and it weighs 85 lbs both heavey brutes.But the most important thing is the SA Ref 100 watts in pure class A and the Purer 3.8 80 watts in pure class A,thats very close and I got a very good built in Tube preamp to boot and they sound very similar.Ive been on a Class A quest every since I had some good time with the Sudgun A21 but I knew it wasnt enough Class A power,and then I heard the SA-Ref and I was Class A branded for life after that,other Amps I like are Pass Labs and Clayton Audio,a lot of other Chinese companies build class A amps to. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1834 Registered: Jun-05 | Yep,David thats them,My dad just bought the 150 watt hybrid intergraded amp and CDP from ListenupChina on Ebay $550 for the amp and $495 for the CDP,I came close to buying that setup very nice and a stupid deal.Sold as Vincent its still a great deal,but buying it from China is like stealing it.lol |
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Gold Member Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1460 Registered: May-06 | Why does anyone here think that the Chinese are able to under price Europe and North America? Not because they love us so much and want to take a loss on their products for us to have and enjoy. I could understand if they came up with new materials which cost 50% less, or new processes which eliminated 90% of the rework and waste, or new extraordinary engineering concepts which enabled them to get 100 Class A watts out of what others get 10 Class A watts. I have not been presented with any evidence that any of these things come into play here so I do not think that is the case. Maybe it has a little bit to do with the "political" comments posted above? Then again my biases may be clouding me and the gear is simply worth what paid for. This is just how I see it, to each his own. |
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Bronze Member Post Number: 78 Registered: Dec-06 | The US still builds crappy cars,the Vette is the only 1 worth buying,I'll stick with my 650 HP Supra,VW GTI VR6,and Mazda Miata. This is what the U.S. companies are up against. Anyone who follows the auto sector knows the big 3 are competitive in terms of product, each to varying degrees. Unfortunately it takes a long time to filter through to the general public, who have their own preconceived notions. Anyhow, this thread isn't about cars so I'll just leave it at that. |
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Silver Member Fairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 610 Registered: Jul-07 | "...Anyhow, this thread isn't about cars so I'll just leave it at that." Yes, you are not following the rules. Art got slapped down for that. Now you are in BIG TROUBLE. |
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Silver Member Post Number: 303 Registered: Jun-05 | "Why does anyone here think that the Chinese are able to under price Europe and North America?" Cheaper labor Michael. I think its an unavoidable conclusion that you will get more for your money buying something that is made in China, provided(!) the design and QC is up to scratch. Good tube amp design, in particular, is well established and no trade secret. Build quality, both internal and external, of products from Cayin and Prima Luna is simply just better than what you would get for the price buying locally built. There is undoubtably a higher proportion of dreck coming out of China than out of any other country, but do your homework and you will likely get better deal from buying Chinese, depending on what you are shopping for. This seems pretty self evident to me. Political boycotts, each to his own, but I find quite disturbing the idea that the welfare of a human being from the US is somehow more important than that of anyone outside your fence. Some of the opinions expressed in this thread are simply untenable. Personally I'd rather feed the family of a worker living closer the breadline. |
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Platinum Member Dallas, TX Post Number: 13023 Registered: May-04 | . <object><param></param><param></param><embed></embed></object> . |
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Platinum Member Post Number: 10909 Registered: Dec-04 | It must be wonderful to speak a different language. |
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Gold Member Irvington, New York USA Post Number: 3039 Registered: May-05 | "Political boycotts, each to his own, but I find quite disturbing the idea that the welfare of a human being from the US is somehow more important than that of anyone outside your fence. Some of the opinions expressed in this thread are simply untenable. Personally I'd rather feed the family of a worker living closer the breadline." Don't judge someone until you know why they wrote what they wrote. You have no idea where I come from or what I've seen. I find what heppened in my hometown deplorable. We had 5 factories. 3 moved to Asian countries, and 2 to Mexico. Why? Cheaper labor. At least 3/4 of the people in my hometown worked in one of those factories. My next door neighbor worked in one for 37 years. He was one of the last to loose his job. He was given $5k as a severence package. He put more than $100k into his retirement over the years. He lost it all. He and the rest of them mean way more to me than anyone anywhere else. What do you think that did to my hometown? Do you really think people anywhere else are more important to me than my community? Call it Nationalism, Racism, or any other ism. I could care less. I'm responsible for my community, and its responsible for me. If you think what happened in my hometown is an isolated incident, you're not as smart as I thought you were. I care about people living closer to the breadline. I have compassion for them. Its there community's responsible to take care of them. Not mine. I'm not going to contribute to my neighbor or any other American losing their job because someone in a 3rd world country is far worse off. I didn't judge how you spend your money. Don't judge how I spend mine. |
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Gold Member Ottawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1531 Registered: Feb-07 | Well said Stu. |
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Platinum Member Dallas, TX Post Number: 13024 Registered: May-04 | . "It must be wonderful to speak a different language." And it was so profound when I posted it. |
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Platinum Member Dallas, TX Post Number: 13025 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V85V5aDEeSk |
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Platinum Member Dallas, TX Post Number: 13026 Registered: May-04 | . That's better. |
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Silver Member Post Number: 304 Registered: Jun-05 | Stu, IMHO there is always going to be teething problems when an economy moves from one mode of production to another, more efficient one. It does this because it offers the greatest good for the greatest number in the long run. This is the fundamental idea of ethics. Of course no one like it when it happens to them, and I understand you reaction as being perfectly human, but that doesnt change the fact that tribalism is the route cause of most human conflict and just not a good thing however you dress it up. I would hope to still hold this idea, at least in theory, if it were me loosing my job to a chinese fellow. I thought this thread was all about judging...I think thats o.k sometimes. I'll give it a rest, I'm not wanting to deliberately antagonize anyone today. cheers B. |
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Gold Member Irvington, New York USA Post Number: 3040 Registered: May-05 | In theory, I agree with what you're saying about Tribalism. Practice is a different story. My hometown going down the tubes affects me and my family in a lot of ways. Nothing is more important to me than my family's well being. I'm not talking about putting others in the poor house for my own community's benefit. I'm talking about protecting your community first and foremost. There's a big difference. I don't know how else to put it. |
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Silver Member Post Number: 305 Registered: Jun-05 | No fair enough, I think we understand each other o.k. I dont live in your community or country, and my training is in macroeconomics, so we're bound to see this differently. Regards, B. |
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Silver Member Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 287 Registered: Dec-07 | China is going through an economic revolution at growth rates that are phenomenal and IMHO not sustainable. This comes with growing pains. Every country that has gone through economic revolutions has had certain problems, environmental pollution, quality, and lack of oversight being some of the principal ones. The difference with China (and India to a lesser extent) is the technology is available to avoid these problems other countries faced during these periods of modernization. The fact they are not using these to full advantage is deplorable. "Political boycotts, each to his own, but I find quite disturbing the idea that the welfare of a human being from the US is somehow more important than that of anyone outside your fence. Some of the opinions expressed in this thread are simply untenable. Personally I'd rather feed the family of a worker living closer the breadline." All of our money is going overseas, to mainly China and the middle east, as it is. Our country is effectively bankrupt, not solely because of the trade imbalance mind you, but that is a big part as any half-witted student of economics knows. What more do you want? We invent things and other countries steal the ideas and make the stuff for next to nothing to the demise of our factories, workers and entrepreneurs. We make movies, and they steal those. We make music, and they steal that. We help countries discover and deliver oil and they steal the assets from the investing companies. It has to do with abilities and principles, and I'll take ours any day. I don't drive much anymore, and I have to wear really crappy looking clothes that fall apart about the third time they go through the washing machine. Please, let us pay too much to buy our non-Chinese audio gear in peace and with a clear conscience. If I want sparks, fire and loud noise, I'll buy their fireworks. There's a little more run time with those. |
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Gold Member Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1464 Registered: May-06 | Cheers Neil! |
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Silver Member Post Number: 306 Registered: Jun-05 | If Tawaun doesnt mind us getting a bit off topic, Neil, to me your reply comes across as another emotional knee jerk response with not a lot of reasoning behind it. Putting aside the environment, child labour, the quality of the goods or whatever other issues you might have, by my reading your post seems to imply that importing goods that can be produced cheaper abroad than they cannat home is simply bad for the U.S economy. Surely not? "All of our money is going overseas, to mainly China". And look what you get in return, more stuff that your parents could ever have dreamed of affording. Your issue seems to largely be with China though, and I'm not trying to discount your many objections to buying Chinese, just dont confuse your arguments by suggesting that you are benefiting the American public by buying overpriced locally made hifi, coffee or cars. You are the public Neil. If every American did as you are suggesting there surely would be cause for complaint. |
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Silver Member Post Number: 307 Registered: Jun-05 | More to the point though, I claim that better made Chinese hifi, for example the well know Cayin amps, are better made than the average US made amplifier of similar price. Not simply stuffed with boutique parts, but better made through and through. Someone here please tell me they have pulled one of these products apart and still agree with "sparks, fire and loud noise"? |
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Platinum Member Post Number: 10914 Registered: Dec-04 | So better made Chinese amps are better than the average US product. So? Better made Canadian amps are better than btter made Chinese products. Never pulled one apart, but replaced tubes at 1 month, using Russian products this time, due to failure. But remember, this was not a 'better' product, and knew that going in, but a happy little amp nonetheless. |
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Gold Member Ottawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1534 Registered: Feb-07 | Ya know, I was gonna say that I don't think a country that allows manufacturers to put lead in children's toys or melamine in baby's milk can be trusted to do the right thing. But then I realized that just recently right here in Canada our gov't (through shoddy inspections and lack of enforcement) allowed people to become sick and die from tainted meat. |
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Bronze Member Post Number: 11 Registered: Jun-08 | This is one intense thread. I'm going through two Rega amplifiers right now due to assembly and cosmetic issues, so there's no way to tell in terms of reliability. I don't care where it's made, as long as there is an established distributor with a strong channel of communication and the product can be sampled locally in case something like this happens. It means no mail order and ebay for me. |
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Silver Member ChicagoUsa Post Number: 405 Registered: Mar-04 | http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1063198/Chinas-new-slave-empir e--disturbing-eyewitness-account-Peter-Hitchens.html |
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Silver Member Post Number: 308 Registered: Jun-05 | "So better made Chinese amps are better than the average US product. So?" Well, just that Neil is wrong in his sweeping generalization. "Better made Canadian amps are better than btter made Chinese products." For the same price, and all other things being equal, I dont know how this can not be the case, given that their labour costs are unarguably lower. I'll grant things arent usually equal, that there are many things Naim or Mac know that the Chinese dont, but in my example of valve amps, and there are others, this is something I believe they do have the knowhow to produce. The do have their own engineers, creative people, audiophiles and hifi industry, they dont need to steal or reverse engineer everything they make. |
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Silver Member Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 292 Registered: Dec-07 | "Putting aside the environment, child labour, the quality of the goods or whatever other issues you might have, by my reading your post seems to imply that importing goods that can be produced cheaper abroad than they cannat home is simply bad for the U.S economy. Surely not?"\i Well, yes it can be very bad in the extreme. Things are extremely out of balance and have been for quite a few years, and we are witnessing the result of that. As you say you are versed in macroeconomics, I thought you would know more about the subject than that. And child labor, the environment, and the quality of the goods must not matter much to you? Sorry, it does to me. "'So better made Chinese amps are better than the average US product. So?'" Compared to what? |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1843 Registered: Jun-05 | "Better made Canadian amps are better than better made Chinese amps" No they just cost more,and who says that Canadian amps are better than US amps or British amps? Not true either,they all build great amps,China just crushes them when it comes to sound for pound and build for pound.China'stuff that costs $1k to $2k competes with their statement stuff,and they crush their budget and mid level stuff.Look what a $1500 Simimoon gets you not much,its barely better than a budget Nad or Cambridge,but not better than something like a Nad 372,so again Canadian amps are overpriced Simimoon is vastly overrated they sound bloated and they dont time well and yes I mean even their uber expenisve stuff,even new Brystons have gone up considerably but atleast they are at sane prices and they are actually worth their cost.Classe makes decent stuff again I remember when the average man could afford them,but most cant,and to who ever said they sound like Macs...umm no they dont,they are decent and built very well but are not worth what they cost for how they sound,and besides the best amps come from the land down under and their name is Plinus but they aint cheap but they are worth it and then some.sorry for what the US,Canada,and the UK is offering my money cant and wont go to bullshite like that im not paying $10k for something I can get for under $1500,fucc that! |
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Gold Member Australia Post Number: 2009 Registered: Nov-05 | Sorry T.W. But to correct you on two counts: 1. They are Plinius amps (with two i's) 2. They come from that little island country off the south east coast of the land downunder. It's called New Zealand. And yes, both Plinius and Perreaux make fabulous audio gear. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1844 Registered: Jun-05 | I dont owe Mac,Bryston,and Naim shite,they are doing just fine without me and many others.What you think buying with them you should get some kind of save your country medal or something? the hell with that your just making them richer while the economy gets worse,with them getting big tax breaks while the elderly get their health insurance cut.At least this is how it works in the US,this was all the US's idea to take jobs out of the country,my City was affected more than yours Stu,Hamilton,Ohio google it,all industrial,so the dam republicans with all these fuced up ideas.The bottom line is the US is screwed up because we choose the wrong political canidates.Look how they handled New Orleans,thats fucin deplorable,we help everyone else except our selves or should I say the less wealthy.So yeah I dont have any patriotic company loyalty,why should I?I dont know anyone that works at Mac,Parasound,or Boulder ect....and I doubt any of you do,I only owe my family,our voting has made the US a mess and thats just what it is,so when they start being loyal to me and many others I'll start being loyal to them,we better hope Obama gets in or we will be the 3rd world country not China,and guess what I'll b the hell up out of here to.So no offense to you Canadians or others,What the hell makes it better to buy from you than China? I'll tell ya there is no reason,buying a Bryston isnt supporting my country anymore than it is from buying from China,Like I said I dont owe them shite just my family,so cattering to my hobby my money goes where I will get the most enjoyment and the best performance from it doesent matter where its from im not supporting anyones fucin cause or pipe dream brand helps our economy hopes,Canada,the UK,and the US better get their shite together in audio or China will take over,our countries charge to much for far less performance is rediculous,but they wont its all about making the most bucks they can,so when it comes to Speakerwire,CDP's,and amps my money will go to the Republic of China and maybe speakers to,but thats not as bad right now,but time will tell. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1845 Registered: Jun-05 | I know they are from New Zealand M.R. I just used that for the whole area,and yes Perreaux builds some fabulous amps to,your part of the world has the magic touch,im glad affordable companies like Bada and Xindak,have went Plinius's,Clayton,Sudrun and Pass Labs blueprint to build a amp,I cant live without Class A or heavily biased Class A now. |
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Gold Member Australia Post Number: 2010 Registered: Nov-05 | Tawaun - never, never ever bundle us in with New Zealand. They are that sheep paddock off our coast and they hardly speak english - well, worse than we do anyway lol! They keep bolting through the fence and somehow make it to our shores taking our jobs or social security. Kidding, I love kiwis - some of them. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1846 Registered: Jun-05 | Well,atleast they build great amps that you guys get to reap the benafits of.lol |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1981 Registered: Jun-07 | Tawaun - I agree that if they dont get Obama in there they will be in deep deep trouble. Putting aside the fact of buying gear to stay within the means of my own economy. Where else can you buy a 15 year old Amp...that still functions like it did the first day it came off the line, and still has 5 years of warranty left on it? Bryston...and nowhere else my friend. They are built to last forever...and they do last forever. 20 year warranty. And no, they are not that expensive. Especially used. |
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Platinum Member Post Number: 10920 Registered: Dec-04 | Perhaps the thread should have been titled along the lines of budget only? With a disclaimer that anyone unhappy with the way that a certain country operates, could possibly shun current patriotism, and move there because it is 'cheap'. happy trails... |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1982 Registered: Jun-07 | lol exactly Nuck. Cheap is good, only when the product works for more than 2 weeks before blowing up a pair of Totem speakers. lol On to you David... Any word yet bud? Imagine how much it would cost in shipping when your onto the third china product. Damn...why don't these North American dealers carry more manufacturers out of China.....*blurp* |
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Gold Member Ottawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1538 Registered: Feb-07 | No word yet my friend. I mailed the preamp in question back to the distributor on Friday. Waiting to hear back. I dropped my Totems off at my dealer's place yesterday. Hopefully they get a chance to take at them soon. |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1847 Registered: Jun-05 | Nick Brystons do last forever,Macs are very good at this to,so is Musical Fidelity,good old Haflers can be had to,N.America in general builds amps to last thats for sure.It takes time in due time more Chinese companies will have world wide distribution. |
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Gold Member Irvington, New York USA Post Number: 3045 Registered: May-05 | "my City was affected more than yours Stu,Hamilton,Ohio google it" I don't want to get into a pis sing contest about who's town got hit harder. But a stupid question if I may... Do you know what my hometown is? Its not Irvington, NY. I grew up in Watervliet, NY. Practically Albany, NY. The Albany/Schenectady/Troy area got hit very hard. Watervliet (a small town in the middle of it) had about 5 factories that closed. Watervliet is the smallest and probably most blue-collar town in the area, and probably got hit the worst by it overall. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 10 other factories that closed in the past 15 or so years in the surrounding cities. The ones that are still around are at a significanly reduced workforce. I have no idea if Hamilton, OH got it worse or not. Its irrevelent. But, you really shouldn't say that it was worse without any idea where I was talking about. Google isn't going to tell the whole story. |
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Gold Member Irvington, New York USA Post Number: 3046 Registered: May-05 | On a more positive note... Watervliet, NY is also the home of the 1991 New York Football, Basketball, and Baseball State Champions. Yes, all 3 major sports won the state championship that year. What makes Class C so difficult is that a ton of the NYS Class C schools are private schools that have the ability to recuit athletes. |
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Gold Member Australia Post Number: 2011 Registered: Nov-05 | Jeez, I wouldn't worry too much about jobs moving to China - there may not be any jobs anywhere soon! And I wouldn't blame the Chinese. Anyway, my dad's bigger than all of your dads put together. Sheesh! |
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Gold Member Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1848 Registered: Jun-05 | Trust me Stu Hamilton was hammered by the same thing as your city,I should have said it like that,but im letting you know I know where you are coming from on that note,is that a little better? |
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Silver Member Wisconsin Post Number: 863 Registered: Dec-06 | What a stupid thread. Protestants are better than Catholics. Discuss. |
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Gold Member Irvington, New York USA Post Number: 3047 Registered: May-05 | They can fight for second. There's Armenian Orthodox, and those who wish they were Armenian Orthodox. End of discussion. |
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Platinum Member Dallas, TX Post Number: 13040 Registered: May-04 | . Orthodox sux! Reform all the weigh! 'sides, you can only wear orthodox with black shoes. |
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Platinum Member Post Number: 10923 Registered: Dec-04 | and before Easter, no less |
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Gold Member Irvington, New York USA Post Number: 3048 Registered: May-05 | Its not our fault you guys took a Pagan holiday and decided it was as good a day as any to call it Christ's birthday. |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1984 Registered: Jun-07 | lol True Stu. It sure pulls out a lot of money out of people though. I wonder if they had that in mind when the holiday was created by some government b00b. No? |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1985 Registered: Jun-07 | why is it displaying my username and not the full name now. |
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Gold Member Ottawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1541 Registered: Feb-07 | This seems to be happening for a bunch of people. Mine is still my full name... |
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Gold Member Ottawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1542 Registered: Feb-07 | Lol... no it's not. I can only guess that the admins changed a setting to no longer display members real names. |
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Silver Member Richmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 160 Registered: Jun-08 | So now I have to try to see if mine has changed as well. Guess it has - well whatta ya know - we'll all have to get to know eachother again. |
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Silver Member Fairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 614 Registered: Jul-07 | I have been trying to buy ANY product not from China and it is very difficult to find. I guess with a billion peasants they can make it all. |
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Gold Member Post Number: 1986 Registered: Jun-07 | LOL Kevin. George is that you - a.k.a Soundgame. I guess whe can just change our username's to what it was before. But what fun is that. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 161 Registered: Jun-08 | Yup Nick, Soundgame = George now. I kinda like using my call sign..it's like Top Gun. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1474 Registered: May-06 | I am not promoting eBay, this retailer, or this product. However I believe this thread is a most appropriate place for Gene Rubin's message at the bottom of this posting. http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-S-CLASS-Benz-Micro-Glider-II-MC-Phono-Cartridge-NEW_W0QQ itemZ160286408498QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item160286408498 |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1990 Registered: Jun-07 | That guy is a smart man. I agree with what he said completely. Products built, by people who care, making an honest living. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 164 Registered: Jun-08 | Thanks Mike, I like Gene's message and only have one thing to add to one of his sentences and I quote: "Equipment that is built in countries such as the USA, England, Italy, France........built by people under optimum labor conditions." He needs to add Canada to that list, we've got Bryston and others like that. |
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Silver Member Username: JawPost Number: 220 Registered: Mar-06 | Hey stryvn; well, somebody had to say it - this is a stupid thread. In light of the prejudiced, political and protectionist (not to mention nationalistic) taunts on this thread, the only thing dumber is the ill-placed humor of the Spanish Olympic Baskeball Team. If one is paranoid with a bad case of "yellow fever" and can't compete with a "billion peasants", would suggest you motivate yourself to learn a "special talent" either vocational, technical or college-degree backed skill. Otherwise, you will lose based on a labor cost competition with Asia. If one billion Chinese peasants concern you, note that there are well over another billion+ industrial peoples in India, Indonesia, Malaysia et al. The world became a Global Economy with Global Competition about 15 years ago. Deal with it, do something about it and quit whining. stryvn, with respect, my intent is not to distort what your views might be. |
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