Totem Rainmaker vs NHT Classic 3 +
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7756 Registered: Feb-05 | Well we're just a couple of hours from having the first meeting of the Mid Willamette Valley Audio Society...lol! Today's attendees include Gabe a very nice young man and engineering student at Oregon State University. He works part time at Northwest Audio Labs with Jim Ott, the most knowledgeable audio person I know. Jim was invited but is moving today and couldn't attend. Gabe is bringing the NHT's. At home he runs them with a hotrodded (by Jim) Rotel pre amp and Hafler 9500 power amp. His primary source is an NAD C542...he is actually a vinyl guy who is temporarily between tables. Also attending will be Dan, who I believe just graduated from graduate school at OSU. We met online here at ecoustics. He knows Gabe from walking in at Northwest Audio Labs. Dan runs a set of B&W 685's at home and I'm not sure of the amp and source...I believe it's a Rotel integrated with a DVD player, though I will clarify that with him. He was invited to bring them but declined fearing a subsequent desire to spend more money than he wants to. Gabe may bring a pair of Paradigm Atom Monitors to compare to the Epos ELS3's...if he can talk Jim into letting loose of the demo's for a while. We will be comparing all speakers with the Rega Mira 3 and Rega Apollo source. The interconnects are van den Hul The Well Hybrid and the speaker cable is van den Hul D352. None of the speakers ar bi wirable except for the Rainmakers and I don't have a set of biwire vdH's. I did fashion some jumpers which helps, but that will be a handicap for the Rainmakers. I picked up some Deschutes Brewery Mirror Pond Pale Ale (Patrick) and have a nice highland scotch in the cupboard. And so there you have it and the stage is set. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1746 Registered: Jun-05 | Sounds like fun Art,make sure take Creek with ya,the els-3 will shock you on them,the Atom's are in for a rough time. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7759 Registered: Feb-05 | Atom's funna get an a s s whippin'! The boys are on their way... |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1747 Registered: Jun-05 | The els-3 is great monitor for its price its a steal,its upperbass is intoxicating!The Atoms will be sent back to newton's law.lol |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1849 Registered: Jun-07 | lol Atoms are good, but not that good.. We will see... The new Atoms I would say are almost twice as good as the last version of Atoms. I hope he brings them, should be super fun Art. I am playing with some new toys tonight too. Just cheap things, and spinning some Vinyl. I will have a glass of scotch in your honor.lol Cheers man, cant wait to hear the outcome. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7760 Registered: Feb-05 | Well fella's it's over. Drumroll please.... And the winner is... There is no clear winner. It was unanimous that the NHT's bass was earth shattering...better than any standmount I've heard. In some ways better than any speaker I've heard...and the decay of percussion was also outstanding. That's where it ends for the NHT's. To all the Totem were more coherent with better driver integration and a more forward and musically believable presentation. When we played Shelby Lynne's CD "Just a Little lovin" the difference between speakers and their presentation was most obvious. When Shelby starts to sing on the opening track she sounds clear and resolved on the Totem's. She sounds present and in the room. With the NHT's everyone was shocked at just how bad the NHT's did her voice....it was as though she had a pillow over her face. The Rainmaker's are a front row seat to the music and the NHT's are somewhere in the back under the balcony. We all agreed that the instruments had more life and color with the Totem's. Where did the NHT's excel...dynamic scale. These are speakers with unlimited volume potential and the bass is incredible...did I say that already. In the end Gabe is rethinking his speaker choice and I'm not...that's what it's about. Dan declared it a draw for him. He liked some of what each speaker did. Gabe and I gave the edge to the Totem's due to musicality and the ability to get to the essence of the music. Due to not being able to biwire and the materials I had to use the Totem's were a tad too foward...also I didn't have time to fool with placement as well as I would like to. Anyone who has worked with Totem's knows that each centimeter can change the sound dramatically. Guys we had fun. The Atom Monitors did not make an appearance and after Gabe heard the Epos ELS 3's he stated emphatically that it's a good thing they didn't as they would have been eaten for lunch. Both fella's left considering a pair of them for their second systems. You'll find a full list of my music that was played on the music selection forum here shortly. Gabe brought some as well...I don't a have list of his. I open the floor to questions. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1852 Registered: Jun-07 | Good stuff Art. I didn't think the NHT's could beat out the Totem's musically. Especially on the Rega gear. Question : how much do the Epos ELS3's go for? Could be a possibility for my mothers system. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 399 Registered: Mar-04 | I was hoping you would have tried the NHT 3's on your Creek or Nad. Not saying you would have come to a different conclusion just was curious. I did mention before about the bass on the NHT's. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1853 Registered: Jun-07 | Electronics would definitely play a roll in the outcome of a lot of speaker comparisons. If you were to do the test on equipment that has a high synergy level with NHT and a very poor synergy level with Totem, perhaps the outcome may have been different. But the main thing is, in Art's room, with his equipment, the Totem's win out, and thats all that should matter to him. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7762 Registered: Feb-05 | Alright...well Id friendship and good conversation won the day. Either we were going to give a good listen to the speakers or to amps and the speakers won. I used the best electronics in the house. I asked Gabe how well he felt the Rega gear was doing with his NHT's I also asked him if the characteristics that we found problematic with his speakers were also problematic at home with his gear. He was surprised at how well the Rega gear aquitted itself with the NHT's and yes the problems that we heard with the NHT's here are also present with his gear. It sounded to me like the crossover on NHT's gets in the way of the music a bit...don't get me wrong guys I could easily live with those NHT's the bass was palpable...oh yeah I've said that already. The Epos can be had from Echo Audio for 379.00 or less. Call Kurt and he'll take care of ya...one caveat the Epos require manly amplification they are a 4 ohm power eater. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7765 Registered: Feb-05 | Let me add that both Gabe and I wish we could find a standmount with the best of both speakers...however he is the one left looking for a speaker with more life. I will definitely upgrade as well but not in a hurry...not until I do a compehensive upgrade. Guys this was fun...wish we had even more time. The very first thing we did was to elect a president of the Mid Willamette Valley Audio Society...the honorable Jim Ott. For his contribution to audio in the valley, he is truly a legend and a gentleman. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7767 Registered: Feb-05 | Here's another example of an observation that we made: The Patricia Barber disc Cafe Blue, I chose cut #9 "Too Rich for my Blood". First as a test for sibilance on vocals all speakers do it with Patricia...however as warm as the NHT's were I wondered where hey would stand. Same as all that came before... Here is the rub...the piano was rich with timbre and every note could be heard on the Totem's...with the NHT's it was veiled and barely noticeable...we were all surprised by how large the difference was. Also the same could be said of percussion which was upfront and identifiable with the Totem's and was way back in the background with the NHT's...more observations as I remember them. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3003 Registered: May-05 | "Let me add that both Gabe and I wish we could find a standmount with the best of both speakers...however he is the one left looking for a speaker with more life." Very simple fix - Audio Physic Yara Evolution Bookshelf.  If I was in the Pacific Northwest, I'd have brought them over with a case of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7769 Registered: Feb-05 | We'd have loved it...as Pink Floyd said...."Wish You Were Here"! |
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Silver Member Username: DarthPost Number: 140 Registered: Aug-05 | Art, Nice info! Sorry to bump in yout thread but......Get these .....a real steal! Stu is rght http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1225639173&/Audio-Physic-Yara-Ev olution-bo  |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7770 Registered: Feb-05 | Guys...really nice but I'd have to sell something first...no moolah...but thanks. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 86 Registered: Jun-08 | Art, really appreciate your providing the details. I'd heard the 3's on a McIntosh setup awhile back and your description was right on. They had very big sound, lot's of bass - surprised me that they were sealed. The soundstaging was deep, from your description, a little too deep for your taste. Personally, I like faily deep staging but I want to feel like it's a smaller venue rather than a stadium. I also found the 3's a little too polite on the upper mids and highs for my taste. However, I still thought they were great speakers. Glad you're happy with the Rainmakers...for now at least. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7772 Registered: Feb-05 | All very good points George and agreed. The NHT's were too polite on the upper mids and highs for me as well and the Totem's just a bit aggressive. I attribute that on the Totem's to not being biwired and being single wired into the tweeters first...it's that or into the woofers first and then they sound like the NHT's minus some of the bass...lol! The Totem's also sounded just a bit more strained at volume than the NHT's which I wondered if it was more the Mira 3 than the Totem's. None the less the excitement of the music was there with them and that's sooo important. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7777 Registered: Feb-05 | A point made by someone in another thread bears repeating here as well. The Totem's bass dropped off dramatically once it reached bottom and the NHT's rolled off gently giving the impression of a bit more natural bottom end...the bass on those NHT's...oh yeah I said that already...unforgettable. Let me tell ya though and this is where it gets interesting for me...I wanted a speaker that lives in the midrange where the music is, and that is open in that frequency range....that's why I bought the Epos M12i's to begin with...I'm still not there, however the Epos ELS3's remind me of why I thought their bigger siblings would be the ticket |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1860 Registered: Jun-07 | Im going to have to check out those Epos Art. "the bass on those NHT's...oh yeah I said that already...unforgettable." LOL sounds like the only thing that impressed you about the NHT's were the bass perhaps? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7778 Registered: Feb-05 | Decay on symbols was also very good. When dialed in they imaged very well but as stated before...the stage was just too deep for my liking and the timbre was too gray...not eough life to the music. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10768 Registered: Dec-04 | I think the totems roll-off is abrupt due to their 4th order xo. I think. Great stuff Art, thanks for sharing, always a good read, my friend. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3004 Registered: May-05 | How is the stage being too deep a liability? By this do you mean that the soundstage doesn't come forward enough? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7782 Registered: Feb-05 | "The Rainmaker's are a front row seat to the music and the NHT's are somewhere in the back under the balcony." "I want to feel like it's a smaller venue rather than a stadium." Those quotes sort of sum it up for me Stu. The second one is from George and was taken out of context though it works very well for me here. I had the feeling I was not privy to a good seat at the venue. I enjoy a considerable amout of live music and I had the feeling that I was further back in the venue than I like to be. This is a point where preference is going to come into play. I think some folks would like that big venue feel more than the intimate close up feel that the Totem's provided. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7783 Registered: Feb-05 | "I think the totems roll-off is abrupt due to their 4th order xo." Per the Totem Acoustic website the crossover is 2nd order. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10773 Registered: Dec-04 | I took a shot, but misremembered. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1754 Registered: Jun-05 | This still peaks my intrest on hearing the 3's on a KT-88 tubes based setup.Although I didnt find their bass as impressive as Art did,they did have good bass,and yes they have a way with symbols are very good. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1755 Registered: Jun-05 | I would add the Era D5 to that list to,I think they do everything you want Art in a monitor,and their bass is deeper and tighter than the 3's.On another note the els3 is a amazing monitor when I think about what they do for the money it is down right unfair.One of the best systems I heard was the els 3's,Creek 5350SE IA & Creek 5350 CDP,VPI Scout turntable with all audioquest cabling simply mind blowing how that system sounded.In many ways I prefer them to the M12.2's,the ah....man the els3's are that good. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7790 Registered: Feb-05 | I like the Era 5's they just aren't enough for my living room. I also find that they sound strained fairly easily. What they do, they do well...however I feel that they still fall short of what I'm looking for and probably won't get for a few years anaway. Another 2 speakers you would probably agree belong on the list are the new Spendor LS 3/5 R and the Spendor s3e. The little Epos will live happily in the office with the Creek 4330 and modded Rotel CD player and the Rainmaker will be with the Rega gear in the main system and God forbid the R5's may be the fronts on the HT with the Yamaha receiver...gulp! I may have to look for more suitable rears (for cheap). |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3007 Registered: May-05 | "Rainmaker will be with the Rotel gear in the main system" I thought the Rega gear was the main system? In regards to the stage being too deep... That's what I thought you were stating. I phrase it as the soundstage is back too far. In my mind, saying the soundstage is deep doesn't have anything to do where it starts, only where it ends. I thought forward means the soundstage starts close, and laid back means the soundstage starts further back. My terminology is probably the flawed language. Hopefully this doesn't side track the conversation with everyone debating what means what. In regards to live music, I prefer to listen to live amplified music about 1/3 of the way back from the stage. To my ears it sounds best at that spot more often than not. Closer than that and the music sounds like a mess and its way too loud. Further back, and its not quite the same. Probably not coincedently, the sound techs at concerts are usually right around that spot too. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1866 Registered: Jun-07 | "R5's may be the fronts on the HT with the Yamaha receiver" If you prefer the totems so much, why not sell the R5's? Or, if you are looking to get the speaker you want, sell the Totems and R5's and get the speaker that will make you crap yourself. lol. Just curious. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7792 Registered: Feb-05 | Ofcourse...Rega...look again I think you were seeing things....lol! Starts...ends, it's all the same to me. It didn't sound right to me and that's what mattered. I see us using the term laid back meaning different things depending on what it charatceristic in sound we're discussing. Here at this forum we've used the term to mean what you referred to with soundstage. We've also used it to mean..easy to listen to as in not bright or the opposite of aggresive. In the end it doesn't matter to me as I don't refer to the audiophile glossary to write about sound as long as we can come to some understanding based on dialogue then I'm ok. As far as where I like to sit at concerts..this will differ depending on what type of concert and at what venue. I simply won't go to a rock concert anymore so I'm only discussing concerts that are of the reasonable volume variety. I usually like to be close to the front. Where I can see what the musicians are doing and see the expressions on their faces...not so close though that the sound isn't coherent as a whole. I probably like to be closer than you do (I also probably like to be at a different and quieter concert than you do). The sound folks are usually far behind me...and having sat near where they are at in my favorite venues I can tell you that the sound is far better where I sit. When I say that the NHT's soundstage was too deep...I may have meant distant as well as deep. I remember a cello on a piece Gabe brought sounded both present and close but the percussion sounded to me like it was coming from the back parking lot behind the stage. Deep...the stage sounded 100 feet deep and some of the instruments sounded too distant. Occasionally that worked...often it didn't. Just my take on it. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7793 Registered: Feb-05 | I can't sell my R5's...just can't. Not too mention Nick I couldn't get enough out of the both of them to buy that next level up. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1759 Registered: Jun-05 | Art,I would have to say that depends on the scale of the images within the soundstage,something a good floorstander inherrantly does well. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 400 Registered: Mar-04 | Hey Tawaun I thought I heard you talking up the Swan D2.1 SE. Are you still fond of those? http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php/p/swan-d2-1se/products_id/69 |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1867 Registered: Jun-07 | ahhhh got ya Art. I C. Well at least when the day comes you get that itch to upgrade you something to fall back on to make the purchase much cheaper.lol. I am still surprised that the R5's are on the back burner.lol. Why not your wife's office system? Give that 325bee something else to work with perhaps? I am just throwing ideas out there. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7794 Registered: Feb-05 | "Art,I would have to say that depends on the scale of the images within the soundstage" Agreed Tawauan. Nick....the R5's aren't really on the back burner...I'm already considering rotating the Totems. Frankly I would never put anything in the wife's office..! She simply isn't good enough about caring for nice things...and frankly, and Tawaun will testify to this, the Pinnacles may be the best speaker in the house pound for pound. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7795 Registered: Feb-05 | Let me also say the the R5's are the only speaker of the three (Epos, Totem, Rega) that the Yamaha AVR can drive without any issues. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12982 Registered: May-04 | . "The Totem's bass dropped off dramatically once it reached bottom and the NHT's rolled off gently giving the impression of a bit more natural bottom end." That would be due to the difference in enclosure types. The NHT is a sealed box with a -12dB per octave rolloff after system resonance and and the Totem is a basic reflex system with a -24dB rolloff. There's no way around the physics of that issue. Designers have therefore resorted to some "tricks" that can assist a speaker with limited bass extension. The bass that has been given so much praise from the NHTs is probably due more to the fact the NHT's employ the familiar designer's "trick" of giving the speaker a slight BBC lump in the midbass. Made famous over thirty years ago by the BBC designed LS3/5a's and the Celestion BC1's and BC2's the lump in the midbass gives the ear the impression of more bass and deeper bass than really exists. Most listeners find this "deception" to be quite convincing when done properly since you are hearing the point where the vast amount of energy from many instruments is highest in level when compared to the fundamental itself. How convincing this type of bass response is will depend largely on the type of music played. Obviously, 32' pipe organs and Bosendorfer pianos will sound less than convincing on such speakers as will quite a bit of power rock music which relies on the lower octave of the electric guitar/bass and the kick drum for its momentum. OTH on lighter rock and jazz, folk and pop along with less demanding classical fare, the impression of having a subwoofer where none exists can be quite real. (The first time MW heard my 3/5a's in my room he thought I had a subwoofer hidden somewhere in the room.) Given the similar lump in the Totem's response through this same region it's no doubt the NHT sounded much more visceral with most contemporary music considering the deeper actual bass extension of the NHT. "I remember a cello on a piece Gabe brought sounded both present and close but the percussion sounded to me like it was coming from the back parking lot behind the stage." I would expect just that from a cello fed to the Totem given the fairly good sized lump in its midbass response relative to its midrange. I am surprised however at the description of the NHT's high frequency response since it has a technically more correct frequency balance overall. The Totem does have an exagerated high frequency response (compared to its midrange level) as far up as it goes but it then drops off very quickly and severely above 10kHz. The NHT is much flatter above 1kHz than the Totem and extends well beyond 22kHz before deviating very far from flat response - when played without its grill. With the NHT grill in place, the response is quite a different matter and according to Stereophile's measurements the speaker should sound dull and rather lifeless in the octaves where even a female voice will recede into the background of the stage. Cymbals, snares, flutes and other instruments operating above the presence range will also be affected by this grill effect. I do suspect the differences heard at Art's place are attributable to the grills on the NHT's. Did you play with the speakers to get best performance, Art? If you removed the grills on both speakers, the NHT should have sounded less emphatic above 5kHz given the rising response of the Totem (up +5dB at 10kHz) but possibly more correct in timbre. ""I think the totems roll-off is abrupt due to their 4th order xo." Just to be clear, if you mean you believe the Totems bass rolloff is due to the crossover configuration between drivers, that isn't the issue here. The enclosure type determines the bass roll out. The crossover at 2kHz or there abouts has nothing to do with the bass extension. "Electronics would definitely play a roll in the outcome of a lot of speaker comparisons. If you were to do the test on equipment that has a high synergy level with NHT and a very poor synergy level with Totem, perhaps the outcome may have been different" Both the Totems and the NHT's demand a fairly beefy amplifier given the low impedance/high elctrical phase angle of both systems. The NHT's low 4 Ohm impedance with a corresponding -45° phase angle which swings quickly to a +46° phase angle at a mere 5 Ohms will be a definite test for any amplifier's muscle. (I believe Stereophile takes the approach of displaying inductive phase angles as negatives and capacitive phase angles as positives. Either way, this swing from inductive to capacitive or capacitive to inductive in such a short span of frequencies is a difficult task for any amplifier.) This alone would lead most amplifiers to sound a bit thin through the midbass when paired with the NHT's. The Totem has a not too different and equally difficult task for the amplifier to manage though its impedance/phase angle is somewhat more convulsive. If the Rega fared well with both speakers, that would be a definite plus in its favor. The house sound of the Rega would, I suspect, be more synergistic with the NHT's though the Totems might benefit from the less agressive treble response of the Rega where a Rotel might put the Totems over the top. Matching levels between the speakers would be difficult since the rising frequency response of the Totem would tend to make you play it a bit louder than the NHT. This would tend to give the Totem the edge in a one on one comparison. The NHT will require considerably more wattage to play as loud as the Totem and this could easily affect any comparison between the two. Finally, given the bass charactersistics of both speakers I would not expect one to sound as good as the other when they are both played in the same location within most real world rooms. As a guess I would start with the NHT's a bit further out into the room and a bit farther from the side walls to accomodate their deeper bass extension/slower rolloff and broader dispersion. Given the somewhat different dispersion characteristics of the two speakers, they would also probably sound best on stands of dissimilar heights or with different seating heights. Overall I would expect the Totem's frequency balance to appeal to someone who likes a front row seat and listens to many close mic'd recordings. The NHT would probably be chosen by anyone who prefers to sit back a bit in the audience. That can all change with the room and electronics but the character of the Totems is generally one of an up front attitude with the NHT's striving for more accurate reproduction. ***** Print these four pages out and put them together to make a side by side comparison of how the speakers are spec'd and then how they actually measure vs. what has been described as their "sound". Doing so should be instructive in how to assess what you read vs. what you are likely to hear from a speaker in an audition. http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1104totem/index1.html http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1104totem/index3.html http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1106nht/index1.html http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1106nht/index3.html It would also be useful to compare what the Stereophile staff heard vs. what has been reported here. Also notice that despite the fairly similar demands on an amplifier, the NHT is given a "nominal" 8 Ohm rating while the Totem is stated as being a 4 Ohm system. . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 401 Registered: Mar-04 | "That would be due to the difference in enclosure types. The NHT is a sealed box". Seems that most speakers I see are ported not sealed, any reason why this is? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7796 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks Jan I certainly hear ya...we had limited time and did the best we could while enjoying each other's company. The speaker placement per your statement probably favored the NHT's over the Totem's. Any further into the room and we would have them in our laps (well perhaps not that far...lol) they were about 2 1/2 ft into the room (very small room). We also did not have the grills on the NHT's, in fact Gabe almost forgot to take them with him....lol! This is why measurements mean so little to me. Leaving the volume untouched the NHT's were actually louder than Totems. Strange... The Rega actually did very well with both speakers. I think it does have a little harder time with the Totems as they can sound a bit strained at high volume but that is a volume that I don't actually listen at, so it's all good. Timbre was actually one of the biggest problems from the NHT's for all of us. We felt that the sound was very gray and lifeless, especially with vocals and piano...wonder what was happening there. I actually find the timbral balance of both the Epos and the Rega speakers to be more accurate than either the Totem's or the NHT's...lot's of fun with this audio stuff. It's break time at work so I don't have time enjoy all of your post Jan but I thank you for sharing your knowledge, and I'll definitely read it all later this evening...always welcome. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12983 Registered: May-04 | . "This is why measurements mean so little to me. Leaving the volume untouched the NHT's were actually louder than Totems. Strange... " There are lots of things measurements cannot describe with any great degree of predictability but measurements can still get you in the ballpark of how a speaker might sound. It's similar to learning how to play an instrument; you can know all riffs and scales but if you don't know how a 12 bar blues is put together, you'll have problems playing along with anyone. Taking it to the familiar car analogy, if you see an engine that has its peak torque at 5k RPM, you know that car probably isn't what you want to drive on the street. Understanding measurements merely becomes a matter of having as many tools as possible available to you. Ignoring measurements when they are available makes for unpredictable results IMO. I've always maintained the only numbers you really need to know are HxWxD and the weight but that is, of course, a simplification. Knowing how to view measurements can get you to the point where you can eliminate possible mismatches and move on to more promising gear. Or it can tell you when an audition might not be as fair as it is made out to be. The BBC bump in the midbass is a common sign of a speaker that will impress in the bass repsonse even if it has very little to offer in the deep bass octaves. Looking at the in room response goosed up at both ends for the Totem it's evident they will have an up front nature. Not a Klipsch or traditional JBL sound but definitely a speaker that plays to the front row. The ripples in the midrange of the Totem's response are almost always going to lend a touch of nasality to the overall sound and most especially to soprano voices. Any cabinet resonance (particularly through the midrange) will result in imaging and spatial definition issues. Wide or narrow dispersion from the highest frequency driver(s) will result in a speaker that can sound quite different from room to room. With a more pronounced bass response and a flatter midrange than the Totems it could be a simple matter to hear the NHT as "louder" depending on the music. The broader dispersion of the NHT in a small room would also tend toward the perception of a "louder" speaker since there is to an extent more sound in the room with such a system. The same would be true of a dipole system vs a monopole system. But any speaker comparison really needs to be done at matched levels or else it suffers from the inaccuracies of perception. Perception may be all we have in many cases and it is what most of us rely on for our personal decisions but it should be given every opportunity to work fairly for all contestants. The next question then would be, how did you compensate for the perceived loudness level between the two speakers? If the NHT sounded louder but is truly the less efficient of the two speakers, did you turn down the NHT even further? Totem: 86.5dB(B)/2.83V/m measured (though this will be due in part to its exaggerated treble) NHT: 83dB(B)/2.83V/m. measured A SPL meter would have been useful for the comparisons you made this weekend, Art. Do you have one? The Radio Shack version has its own problems but it is a starting point. http://www.stereophile.com/features/103/index7.html Page 8. If you read the article through, you will see a reason for the vast majority of systems being a ported design today. Not a good reason, IMO, but a reason. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7797 Registered: Feb-05 | I actually don't remember what we did relative to the volume. I think I asked the fella's if they wanted it louder or quieter for each speaker without going real loud. One restriction I had was to keep the volume resaonable...don't enjoy loud music. Gabe had the remote at one point. I wanted the fella's to listen like they would at home (with the one limitation mentioned). I do have an SPL meter..didn't use it. Didn't and don't see the need. I bought it before there was auto setup for HT. Otherwise no need for it for me. "But any speaker comparison really needs to be done at matched levels or else it suffers from the inaccuracies of perception. Perception may be all we have in many cases and it is what most of us rely on for our personal decisions but it should be given every opportunity to work fairly for all contestants." Exactly, and any resemblance to a fair comparison is merely accidental. We were having fun and not trying to be professional after all we do enough of that during the week. We all understood and discussed our perception and the role it plays in preference. We knew that this was just a fun listen under real world conditions, in a room that is anything but ideal and in positions that were anything but ideal. We even discussed how lively the room is with my framed pictures and brick fireplace. You're right about the vocals on the Totem's as well. There is a hint of nasality especially at higher volume. Again though the vocals were so much better than what we heard from the NHT's that all was forgiven. Truth is, if I were in the market for a speaker in the $1000 range and listened to both of those I may not have bought either. The high end of the Totem's is a bit too forward and the NHT's are just not my cup-o-tea. I would keep shopping...in the end I may have come back to the Totem, but it would not be love at first listen. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12984 Registered: May-04 | . Just given the in room response of the two speakers I can see the NHT might not impress. Speakers with a fairly flat frequency response across the board sometimes come across as too bland. OTOH, they can also be perecived as pleasant to listen to on a wide range of musical material. That is a listener's preference and why you cannot predict how any one listener will choose speakers or electronics on a broad brushed basis. The Totem's repsonse would lead me to believe it is a "fun to listen to" speaker that would require an extended audition before making a buying decision. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7798 Registered: Feb-05 | Totally agreed on all counts Jan. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1869 Registered: Jun-07 | Some great info Jan. Art- i completely know what you mean about the R5's. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7799 Registered: Feb-05 | Which thing about the R5's Nick...lol! You know the R5's really are still the best speaker I own. The most versatile...and I discovered something with them recently...they really like to be close to the back wall...I mean close. In my office they are less than 2 inches from the wall and the bass is cleaner and more articlulate...ah this dang audio stuff. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1764 Registered: Jun-05 | Jans right about the Rainmakers,I explained this about 2 years ago on here. On the plus side they are fun,they do have a lot of cabinet resonance that really bothers me.I think Vince Bruzze had a goal to make a entertaining speaker,and I think he achieved that. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1877 Registered: Jun-07 | "Nick....the R5's aren't really on the back burner...I'm already considering rotating the Totems. Frankly I would never put anything in the wife's office..! She simply isn't good enough about caring for nice things...and frankly, and Tawaun will testify to this, the Pinnacles may be the best speaker in the house pound for pound." Just was saying, I understand where your coming from.lol sorry it took me so long. I loved the R5's, and especially with the Mira/Apollo. I think if you were still seeking that little missing something something Art, you could always sell the R5's and Totems and buy the R9's and be done with it. *drool* mmMMMmmMMMMmmm Rega R9's mmmmmm. Some day Art, some day my friend. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7802 Registered: Feb-05 | Let's see...after sellin' my speakers I'd still owe my Mazda 3 for those R9's ...nah better not. I'm happy with my speakers for now. I eventually want a richer midrange but it can wait. Actually I can't wait for the weekend to try the Totem's with my new interconnects. Tawaun I don't hear as much cabinet resonance as you do I suppose. I think at the 1K price point there are compromises, and I haven't listend to a speaker yet that doesn't sacrifice some little piece of the absolute sound to try to find another...just the name of the game...in the end I'll take the Totems weaknesses to the NHT's while still realizing that I'm on the life long journey to the absolute sound. I once asked a friend of mine...he's 70+ yrs old and owns 2 of the most expensive and beautiful sounding systems I've ever heard if he was satisfied...he looked at me like I had 3 heads and said "goodness no that's the nature of it". He owned a classical music store and spent more time at live music than any of us and he knew... |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 95 Registered: Jun-08 | Jan, loved your write up. Very well explained. Art - we all have dreams, that's what this is all about. Totem Rainmakers today and R9's down the road. What's great about this is that even when we can't afford to/justify an upgrade we get to hear about how happy others are with their new equipment. Just to throw something in, how would the Totem Sttafs work out in your system? Have you heard or considered them? They would be a little more polite in the top end, have a fuller, warmer sound, quite easy to drive at 8ohms. Dave absolutely loves his and I've been looking at them for a future 2-channel. They can be had for a reasonable price. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1770 Registered: Jun-05 | Art the resonance I hear affects the the midrange with it being somewhat nasal with voices,but I only knew this because I had the Arro's and the Forrest right next to them on the same setup.Me personally I would take the Rainmakers to,like I said they are a bunch of fun.I would like to see you trade the R5's and the Rainmakers in or what you want,What speaker really intrests you a lot in the $2k to $2.5k range? |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1771 Registered: Jun-05 | ID the 2.1SE's are awsome if you have manly power behind them,if you dont they will sound very distant and the images will shrink in the soundstage and the timing will be slow with limited dynamics.Now for the good news powered right they throw a huge deep soundstage with the most black back drop I've heard in a $1k speaker.They have huge bass that will go down to the mid 30's which is amazing for a standmounter regardless of price.They are very warm but very detailed,they have true talent with the female voice and piano's and their build is phonominal 1 of the best speakers at the $1k mark the only draw back is they need big talented power get it right and they will get it right for you. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7845 Registered: Feb-05 | Latest fallout...Gabe's Classic 3's are for sale. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10825 Registered: Dec-04 | Many lessons learned on this little foray, eh? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7852 Registered: Feb-05 | Oh yeah... |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10831 Registered: Dec-04 | Pisss off any wives lately? hehehe |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7853 Registered: Feb-05 | Gabe is unmarried and free to buy uninhibitedly...and since he is early in this disease that may or may not be good. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10832 Registered: Dec-04 | Give Gabe my email, Art. Sounds like my kinda guy... |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1781 Registered: Jun-05 | The disease is bad,but is great to! |
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