Archive through September 01, 2008
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New member Username: PlasmaengineerPost Number: 1 Registered: Apr-08 | I am looking to upgrade the speakers (LRC/SLR,SRB) in my home theater. The room is "medium" sized and I would like to find something that has an appreciable sensitivity across the practical dynamic range for 70% movies and 30% music (down tempo electronic). I have read positive reviews on the NHT classic 3 series, but unfortunately no store near me has them to audition with my movies and music. Does anyone have any experience with these speakers or can make any recommendations in a similar price range? Thanks in advance. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6677 Registered: Feb-05 | They are a wonderful speaker, too good for a mostly HT application IMO. They are also not very sensitive, require a lot of current to be driven to their best. |
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New member Username: PlasmaengineerPost Number: 2 Registered: Apr-08 | Thanks Art! How much amplification power are we talking about to let them really stretch their legs? My current AVR is a Yamaha RX-V1800 (130W x 7, .04% THD at 1kHz)...decent...not my preferred separate pre/pro amp combo, but not bad for the cash. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6681 Registered: Feb-05 | That ain't enough current to make 'em sing. And I do like Yamaha AVR's for movies...I have a small one myself...but for music it won't be about watts but about current...the better the amp the more you would benefit with the Classic 3's. They are a better speaker than they have a right to be for the bread....very special but they sound dull and lifeless without quality amplification. Think integrated amp at the $1500 range and up.... |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2627 Registered: May-05 | My experience with NHTs brings me to the exact same conclusions as Art. You need very good amplification to bring out the potential of NHTs. Most receivers on the market simply don't have enough guts. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 68 Registered: Apr-08 | A little late, but Classic Threes don't need exotic amplification, though I wouldn't attach garbage either. Even a lower powered NAD, Rotel, Cambridge or Arcam surround receiver will do just fine in a medium sized room. Even the Yamaha would be fine, even though it wouldn't be my first choice. Don't avoid a great speaker over your receiver. The Yamahas have generally had a tendency towards brighter sound, but the NHT Threes aren't really that hard to drive or that aggressive in the treble. They can be a bit much in a bright room because of the wide dispersion. But the imaging, resolution, soundstaging, accuracy, bass quality is all well above what one would expect for $900. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6728 Registered: Feb-05 | The 3's simply require a quality amp to sound their best. The Yamaha would not do... The other AVR's you mention would drive them but the the better the amplification the better they sound...I know I've actually listened to them. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2665 Registered: May-05 | I wasn't trying to imply exotic amplification, just strong and stable amplification. Yamaha isn't the strongest and most stable amplification IMO. I wouldn't drive them with anything less than a NAD, Rotel, or Cambridge. Arcam would probably be a very good way to go, soley based on their power supplies. I haven't heard the combo, so I have no comment on its SQ. Maybe even a Panasonic XR55 receiver? Not sure about the NHT's impedence dips, but if they don't get too low the XR55 (or whatever replaced it now) should have enough power to open them up. Not sure about the SQ again though. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 72 Registered: Apr-08 | Art, i understand the thought BUT, there's a point where you just buy the speakers you want and deal with the consequences later. We can quibble all we want about the Yamaha vs other units, but it's not going to suck, the sky won't fall, dogs and cats won't have babies. I know, i've installed more Threes in more different systems that I can count. Bad room acoustics if FAR more problematic for them than the amp. They don't like tile floor, for instance. Stu, the bigger yamahas are quite powerful and will drive the speakers no problem. Again, you can quibble about yamaha's stock sound, but then again, some people love that sound and it's still subtle compared to the quality of the speakers. The impedance is pretty stable and high. They're just somewhat inefficient. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6730 Registered: Feb-05 | We disagree and that's ok. Yamaha is about the last receiver in the world I would look at for the Classic 3's |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 74 Registered: Apr-08 | Well, you gotta admit, it's better than a Sony or JVC or whatever. Sometimes, you deal with the gear you have and move forward. I say, you cross that bridge when you get there. I think everyone here is way too eager to jump all over the quality of electronics and force people to upgrade to exotics when they don't even have speakers good enough to appreciate the subtle improvement. It's like telling a guy with four flat tires that he needs a better engine. Maybe he does, but lets fix the flats and get him back on the road first. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6732 Registered: Feb-05 | "Well, you gotta admit, it's better than a Sony or JVC or whatever." Most likely very true. "I think everyone here is way too eager to jump all over the quality of electronics and force people to upgrade to exotics when they don't even have speakers good enough to appreciate the subtle improvement." Ooh...not sure who you mean as I haven't been following the "fight" thread but I don't own exotic gear and certainly am not suggesting to this individual that they buy something exotic. I simply believe in that all too overused term "synergy". I've learned my lessons in putting together systems without a plan and won't go there again...like to help others not make the same costly mistakes. It may be ok to do if your not spending much or are simply upgrading piece at a time from either the used market or while following a plan...but using the NHT's with the Yamaha long term, well it wouldn't work for me, then again I don't have to listen to it. |
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New member Username: Swanny76109Fort worth, Tx Usa Post Number: 1 Registered: Jun-08 | I have owned an NHT system since January, when I upgraded my HT. The Classic 3s are wonderful, revealing speakers that can really slam, but as other posters have noted they need hefty amplification to really open up. If you read the reviews, their actual sensitivity is actually closer to 83, and the impedance is in the 4 ohm range, rather than the 86/8 ohm that is claimed by NHT. When I first got them, I tried them with my Onkyo 805, which claims a high current, but it sounded awful. Then I switched that for the Pio Elite 94, and it sounded better but I didn't get the dynamics or volume I was after. Separates was the route. I got a great deal on a used Sherbourn 5/1500A, which can deliver 300 wpc into 4 ohms continuous with its monoblock design and high current capability. Let me tell you, this system kicks serious butt for the money. I can put on Led Zepp DVD in DTS and absolutely and effortlessly blister the paint on the walls. I had a buddy over the other week and we were grinning ear to ear listening to Jimmy Page's leads. The Classic 3s simply disappear and provide a wide and deep soundstage. My Classic 2s make great surrounds and am happy with those as well. I did have a bass driver go bad with a frozen voice coil(perhaps from shipping as it happened not long after I got them and during break in) and NHT replaced it free and right away with great service. These speakers also sound great with acoustic music. Vocal timbre is spot on and these are the least fatiguing speakers I have ever owned. I think they are great for HT and for 2 ch music, but again, you need high quality separates to make them sing. Even top of the line HT receivers won't cut it. Good luck! |
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New member Username: JoesabinPost Number: 1 Registered: Aug-08 | I purchased the Classic Threes to give my system a more musical edge. I am very pleased with their performance. While at this point I have a Yamaha RX-V2700 system, I used to have Carver separates for my HT. While the Yamaha may not have the smoothness of the Carver, it's got all the punch the Carver had in terms of raw power in stereo mode. That said I strongly disagree that the Yamaha receiver mentioned couldn't drive these speakers. These sparkle in my medium sized rooom. The soundstage is spot on and three dimensional. I added a 2C and Twos in the rear and the theater experience is wonderful, as good as any big theater I've had the pleasure to sit in. From the Absolute Sound review of them: "But the good news is that, in spirit, the Classic Threes are more honest than finicky, meaning good affordable amplifiers and A/V receivers can drive them effectively. At the same time, however, the speakers offer more than sufficient resolution to show why higher-performance ancillary components might be a worthwhile investment." It would be unfortunate for someone to bypass these wonderful speakers because they "only" owned a relatively high end receiver. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7598 Registered: Feb-05 | If you like them with the AVR imagine what they would sound like with a better amp. Having alot of experience with both the NHT's and both better AVR's than the Yamaha and also separates, I stand firmly behind what I said. That said I'm always glad when someone is pleased with their setup. They will be listening to it not me and that's what's important. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1685 Registered: Jun-05 | I have to agree about the NHT's thats the 1 thing that hasnt changed about them,even if company has changed so much,trash in trash out with them.John Ashman sent me a pair of Classic 3's for a few months,and they are very good,with tons of detail,but I found them lifeless and lacking soul this was on the MF X-150 they had plenty of power and current,and they didnt mate well.I would say good powerful push/pull tubes,or a good hybrid such as the Unico,or a good class A amp would be magic on them,they need gear that is very musical.1 of my fondest memories was hearing the 3.3's on some Mark Levinston mono blocks,it still ranks as 1 of my best musical experiances. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7599 Registered: Feb-05 | That's a good point TW about the type of amp that the Classic 3's really shine on. I used an AR hybrid pre with a Hafler 9500 (I think that was the model) power amp with them and it was very good. My friend who owns the Classic 3's is due to come over to my house in the next couple of weeks to run them up against my Rainamkers with my Mira 3...good test with a lower powered integrated. We'll see how they do there. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1691 Registered: Jun-05 | Art I think the Classic 3's are gonna sound really good with the Rega gear,I would imagine with Classic 3's great detail and the Rega's timing and rhythum could be stirring.Thats gonna be a heluva contest. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10694 Registered: Dec-04 | Looking forward to that one Art. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 55 Registered: Jun-08 | Heard the Classic 3 on a McIntosh integrated, the source was a heavily modded PlayStation (the guy was a heavy 6moons reader). I mean tweaking for speed, accuracy and a big a** power supply, the size of the unit. The 3's were pretty impressive and realistic. You could listen to them all day on that setup. Side note - I'm looking to get my hands on an old PlayStation, just for kicks. |
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New member Username: RegguyPost Number: 1 Registered: Aug-08 | After reading the responses, I am curious to note that few have actually answered the question. The answer is, yes they are worth the money. The the secondary question is will they work with my system. The answer is also a yes. Now, one might qualify that and say they won't sound as good as they would on a pair of Mark Levinson's monoblock amps, but hey, what higher end speaker wouldn't? If John Doe is like many of us, he doesn't have the bucks to make a complete switch in his system all in one day. So the question becomes can I buy these speakers and have them work for me. A fair answer to John is an unqualified YES. Yes John they will work with your system. I ran them on an Onkyo AV receiver with only 90 watts to the fronts. They improved the sound of my system by a huge amount. After putting the rest of the NHTs together into my system piece by piece, I discovered they dragged it down and the Onkyo was not able to power them to perform well. So after several months I bought a nicely powered Denon AV receiver and the situation improved. In my room, with my experience, with my perceptions, the Threes are one of the nicest speakers with high wife approval of anything out there. Their soundstage is broad and dimensional. As a person who has gone to many live performances, I can tell you that the clarity of the sound is very close to live. Buy them and enjoy them. You'll likely want to improve what drives them, but I am pretty sure you'll be impressed once they get through their first 50 hours or so of break-in. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10699 Registered: Dec-04 | Good first post Reg, welcome to ecoustics. most anything will work, it just a matter of how well. Lots of people like what they have that 'works' without being exposed to the potential of a single componant, or system. If the speakers are being underused, underpowered or underwhelmed, then yes, the final presentation is not going to be nearly as satisfying as the speaker engineer had in mind. However, the result may suffice for some, or for the moment. Bottom line is..if you like it, run with it. However, once used to their designed abilities, the speakers may just knock your socks off. |
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New member Username: RegguyPost Number: 5 Registered: Aug-08 | Thanks Nuck! I should mention that the Denon also produces about 130 wpc into 8 Ohms. I have not found it wanting for power. Then again, the size of the room is not wanting for coziness either. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10701 Registered: Dec-04 | Cool Reg. It is hard to recommend specific makes over type on a page. I have particular issues with Denon, Yamaha and Marantz, but none of that matters much. What works works, and the end result is a happy listen and tappin' the toes. maximizing any speaker means getting to the level that it was spec'd at, under ideal conditions, with test tones. I don't tap my toes to test tones, so who cares? If it works for the OP or John DOH! then that is all that matters. Getting tp the Nth degree is where it gets sticky. I like sticky, but not in my music. |
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New member Username: RegguyPost Number: 6 Registered: Aug-08 | It is always dicey to recommend. One man's meat is another man's poison the saying goes. I had an awesome setup before getting married. It aged and when I went to upgrade I picked a reasonable AV receiver to make things neater. Domestic bliss and all. Our house is just not big enough to give me my listening room. Next house will have a basement I can fix up and it will ROCK. But for now suffice it to say the HT moves the pictures on the walls. The Denon was a good buy and has gotten reasonable reviews. I got a returned unit at a brick and mortar shop, 60% off retail, couldn't say no. At that price I can eBay it in a year and buy something else. My wife and I have an agreement, if I can afford it, I can buy it. Just the old one needs to leave the house. Cool... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7605 Registered: Feb-05 | Pretty much any speaker will work with nearly any amp. That's not much of a revelation. That all matches aren't created equal is also not a revelation. So when a person asks if a particular speaker will work with a specific amp I mistakenly believe that they are asking if the two are a good match in our opinion. Again mistakenly, I believe that the poster knows that if they hook up the speakers to the amp that they will get sound. So I give my opinion about whether the two products in question are a good match...again probably a mistake. Hearing how much better the Classic 3's sound with that next level of electronics is eye (or ear if you will) opening. I have been priveleged to hear them with some pretty darn good gear...I've also owned NHT's and understand that they have considerable power requirements. I inevitably sold my NHT's because my Rotel separates couldn't make 'em sing like I had hoped. They wanted more power. I really am looking forward to hearing the Classic 3's in my system. Think Ill give ole Gabe a call.... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7606 Registered: Feb-05 | Just called Gabe and the shootout is tentatively set for next Saturday at 1:00 p.m....let the games begin. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 61 Registered: Jun-08 | Hey Art, Looking to hear the results. As to the big question on whether a Denon amp is adequate for the NHT's, I would say that sometimes, "ignorance is bliss". Once you get that upgrade bug, your system will never sound the same. If you're happy, stay happy....for as long as you can. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7607 Registered: Feb-05 | I agree completely George...and BTW I don't think either of us mean ignorance in a disparaging way. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 409 Registered: Apr-08 | You guys kill me with the 'you have to get better gear' thing, like crack dealers. One of the great joys I had being an NHT dealer was being able to put a smile on people's faces with nearly any brand of electronics. If someone is enjoying something, why is there a religious need to tell them they're not enjoying it enough? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7610 Registered: Feb-05 | Geez John...back to put words in folks mouths again. Did anyone but you speak of a religious need. The kid who I'll be having the shootout with is an employee of a good friend of mine who is an NHT dealer. Lot's of NHT dealers... BTW when he first heard the Classic 3's with a Marantz AVR he wondered what was wrong with them. They didn't sound anything like how he heard them when he agreed to be a dealer. After switching to better electronics the magic was back. The crack dealer comment is highly offensive John... I don't profit one f..king bit from someone buying better electronics. An in the end I really don't give a damn. They have to listen to what they buy not me...thankfully. My recommendations are strictly related to what I believe will make a difference in the listening experience...period. |
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New member Username: RegguyPost Number: 7 Registered: Aug-08 | John, Art. Peace dudes. There is a difference in opinion here. I more agree with John than I do with Art, but I have purchased some incredibly expensive equipment while single. There is a difference, however it can be subtle. We as audiophiles need to be careful how we recommend equipment. If a pair of speakers can sound pretty darn good on an AV receiver, what's the deal about saying that? Sure one can buy better equipment and make them sound better, but seriously, why should we as audiophiles discourage people from enjoying a $900 pair of speakers with a system that can't exploit their true potential? The Threes dance with simple receivers, they become magical with better receivers, and become unbelievable with separates with quality. So? Aren't they better than most in that price point? Possible the best of all in that price point. Why not simply say that? I find it obnoxious to say any speaker will sound good. That's not the case and we all know it. There are some speakers that require high current to even produce acceptable sound. The NHTs require mid-level current to produce good sound. They require high current to really punch it out. But, they sound pretty darn good with a higher end AV receiver. There is no reason not to accept that and if you can't, then you are doing no one a favor. Might as well sell Bose if that's your attitude. Garbage for the masses because they aren't willing to spend $40,000 on a system. Give me a break. I've got over $10K invested into my HT and that's way over what most will spend. As to the crack dealer comment, well, it's pretty much how people feel when talking to most audiophiles. I cut my teeth on Heathkits with my uncle. I owned a quad system back in 1974, today I have a fairly impressive 5.1 system. If I talked to some of you folks I wouldn't have purchased anything. Geeze! |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 410 Registered: Apr-08 | Art, I'm sorry. I meant 'crack addicts'. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 411 Registered: Apr-08 | Reg. Beautifully said. I don't think you need advice from anyone, including me. Carry on ;-) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7611 Registered: Feb-05 | Who's the crack dealer Reg...my livelihood doesn't depend on retail sales. In the end I couldn't posssibly care less if folks drive their Wilson WattPuppy's with a Lloyds all-in-one if they are happy with it. However if one asks an opinion relative optimal system matchups I'll give my opinion especially if I have any experience with the gear. As you may have noticed you have more wrapped up in your system than I do in mine...nothing exotic here. I recently took a very nice little integrated (Aura) in to my friends NHT store to show it off to him with the Classic 3's...it was immediately exposed as having too little power for the job...perhaps your idea of enough current to sound good and mine aren't the same. Frank and Tawaun would agree that I don't have amp enough to bring out the best in my Totem Rainmakers...rather than blast them as "crack dealers" and BTW both of them either are or have been in the retail audio biz...I would agree with them...why? Because they are right...what a concept. I respect those two fella's because they are gonna give it to me straight up...I appreciate that. If I ask them right now if I can drive my Rega R5's with my Yamaha AVR...they would let me know that I could do alot better and they would be right and it's the same advice I'd give. Can the Yammie drive the Rega's...yeah and with ease, does it sound good...no...much better with either of the not exotic inexpensive integrated amps that I have...again the truth what a crime. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 62 Registered: Jun-08 | I mean this in the most respectable way, wishing all happy listening but it is really funny that this thread has turned into such a heated discussion over a question posed originally by a member named: John Doe. Forgive me if that's his real name. Something to think about..hmmm. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7613 Registered: Feb-05 | George, one thing I hope you know is that I'm not really perturbed. I was one of the few folks who welcomed John (Ashman) when he first arived and then he and the rest of the forum took to having quite a little debate...over several threads and weeks. I'm only concerned that folks think that because you recommend gear that might make a more optimal system that you somehow don't want them to enjoy what they have. One doesn't have any relationship to the other. That someone might suggest Naim separates as a better match for my Totems doesn't diminish my enjoyment of my Rega/Totem combo nor do I think that they are trying to get that outcome for me. I think that it's more accurate to assume that folks here are perfectly OK with someone enjoying their system whether or not we think that the systems are well matched. |
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New member Username: RegguyPost Number: 8 Registered: Aug-08 | Art, no offense meant toward you or anyone else dealing in high end hardware. I was just commenting on the comment which might have been a comment off an aside comment about someone else's comment. But to be honest, I feel as if some audiophiles get a bit over the top and forget that there are common folk trying to figure out what sounds a bit better than good. I don't mean to offend. I was trying to insert a little humor. Sorry, that's my nature. Some call it being a jerk. Anyway, I still think the threes make a nice addition to a common man's stereo or HT setup. Truly, I don't mean to stir up trouble. Just found this site and hope to enjoy some good solid sharing of info. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 412 Registered: Apr-08 | The cure for not being happy with your speakers? Buy a new [forum approved] amp. The cure for being perfectly happy with your speakers? Buy a new [forum approved] amp. The cure for a erectile dysfunction? Buy a new [forum approved] amp. |
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Bronze Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 63 Registered: Jun-08 | Good to know Art. I'm someone who's driving my mains with an AVR, an Onkyo 805 and I'm not offended or put off by your thoughts. I believe others are just trying to protect the newbeez like myself from the audiophiles - understanding that the audiophile (yourself) intends no harm at all. Ultimately, this is just a discussion and nothing here is personal. We're just throwing out ideas on something we all love...AUDIO. Sweet sounds to you. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7614 Registered: Feb-05 | "The cure for a erectile dysfunction? Buy a new [forum approved] amp." I wouldn't know John but I'll take your word for it...lol! Not a problem Reg, sorry if it seemed that I got steamed, I'm not...really. I'm looking forward to more of your contributions as they appear to be well thought out. George, always enjoy your posts! |
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New member Username: RegguyPost Number: 9 Registered: Aug-08 | Art, we seem to be on the same page here. Just one comment on separates. Once one joins with a female, separates become a complexity that often is not acceptable. My wife is REALLY smart, truly, but doesn't care to deal with stupid stuff (her terms) to hear music or watch TV. She thinks I'm an a** for the complexity. So I aim for a good solid system that we can both accept and enjoy. Women don't enjoy, by and large, the intricacies of a high end separates system. A good solid unified system makes most women happier. As a grown up geek (52) I appreciate this. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7615 Registered: Feb-05 | I certainly understand. When My wife and I got together it was understood that audio is important to me and that my gear is exactly that...mine. She doesn't have to worry about it's complexity as she doesn't touch it. She has since become soemwhat fascinated and now has a small system of her own. Don't know why I call it small it's the same number of components as mine...she loves music and really enjoys her system. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 413 Registered: Apr-08 | www.sonos.com - nothing makes a woman happier. In audio, I mean. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1693 Registered: Jun-05 | John,in all fairness NHT no matter what era they have been in have never responded well to budget gear,its just not their calling card,you being a dealer has to know this.Maybe thats why the people who you give advice to on avs,which you always swear a lesser amp will drive them well,usually people always say they are either bright or dull and worst lifeless.Maybe its time you redo your strategy with NHT,and what do you drive your Revel Studio's with? do you drive them with a budget Yammie gear,if you do you are wasting the potential of 1 of the best speakers on the market,you get where im going with this? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 414 Registered: Apr-08 | Tawaun, I think the idea that better equipment can yield a better experience is self-evident and doesn't require being a reflexive, dogmatic mantra. When people have a Yamaha and ask if the NHTs will work on it, I say 'of course, though SOMEDAY, when you're ready to buy a nicer amp, you might want to look into something nicer". But many people just *bought* their amps, I'm not going to convince them they're not enjoying their speakers when they are. Most of the time, better performance is far easier to get using better setup and some room acoustic treatments. No one seems to be so dogmatic about that though. The Studios are being driven by an NAD M3 that people love to bash because it says 'NAD' on it. I'm not an NHT dealer any more, I dropped them to pick up Revel and Era, but that was because I'm not at all a fan of the new owners. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1696 Registered: Jun-05 | Ok John I gothcha its clear to me what you mean now.The M3 is pretty good no doubt,but it cant really really show what the Studio's can do im sure you know that though.John what other electronics are you carrying? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 415 Registered: Apr-08 | Why can't it? It measures better than most $10,000 amplifiers. And it probably costs more in parts than most of those $10K amps too. As far as I'm concerned, the M3 is as good as it gets. In order to get beyond that, you need to get DEQX and remove your crossovers, something that is very tempting with the Studios. As good as they are, the Xds with their much cheaper amps outperform them in many key ways. So the answer is to go BEYOND wasteful spending on amplification and actually start solving problems. I guess Obama would probably buy the expensive amp and 'hope' it works. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1697 Registered: Jun-05 | Im not just going by expensive,in the M3's pricerange or a bit higher,and some thats cheaper,its not the most tansparent at that price nor as rhythumly gifted. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 416 Registered: Apr-08 | Amps don't have 'rhythum'. How do you measure 'tansparent'? In any case, I disagree completely, so that means I guess people would have to make that judgment on their own. Or by the measurements, in which case, you'll have a hard time finding an amp that measures as well for the price. Many people think a lack of added distortion and harshness means a lack of detail, but it's really just a lack of color. Maybe that's not impressive to you, but it is to me. And even the Studio2s have 100s, if not 1000s times more distortion than the M3. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1698 Registered: Jun-05 | John listen to a Naim and tell me it doesent have rythum and swager or a Sugden A21,im sure knowone here will agree with,thats the 1 thing that none of the newer Nad is good at,except for maybe their pre in the Classic line. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 417 Registered: Apr-08 | I brought in Naim to try out. And sold Rega and other so-called "PRaT" amps. Didn't do it for me. I guess I don't have enough imagination. To be honest, I heard it as a lack of deep bass response at best. PRaT amps sound like regular amps to me except for the lack of bass. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7620 Registered: Feb-05 | Don't need any imagination John...just a set of ears and willingness to believe them. Lack of bass...oh my. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 418 Registered: Apr-08 | Art, the theory here is that if you don't buy into PRaT, you're wrong, we're right. I see your amps as having more in common with Yamaha in sound, yet you bash Yamaha. I still doubt you could tell which was which in a DBT. I've found that the more A/B testing I do, the less I believe my ears and impressions, except with respect to speakers. "believe your own ears" is the mantra of religion, yet we know that all of these things diminish or even go away under DBTs. Yet you still go on and on and on and on. Flat Earth Society. The problem is that you want people to hear what you do and if you don't, you pile drive them. What is someone absolutely LOVES the sound of their cheap receiver? Who are you to say they don't or can't? Or that they will like a more expensive amp more? There are actually some cheapy amps that defy probability and sound quite fine. But you guys are all about the brand names. You're the least of them here, Art, but you're still living on the edge of reality at best. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7621 Registered: Feb-05 | Yeah.... |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1699 Registered: Jun-05 | Im not about brand name,but it is true in audio that some names do things better than other names,seems that between here and avs,you still havent learned that yet,the bottom line is Naim builds way better amps than Nad,its nearly a fact as opposed to a opinion,sorry John,thats just the way life is sometime. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 359 Registered: Mar-04 | John let me be the first to state the obvious (and I know I speak for everybody on this forum) it is great to see you back here. Don't be a stranger; your wit and wisdom are a welcome addition. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 420 Registered: Apr-08 | What do you mean by 'way better'?!? I suggest you check out the measurements of the nearly twice as expensive SuperNait vs the M3 and tell me how measuring worse in every way could possibly equal 'way better'. Just because you may prefer the added 'sound' of a low performance amp doesn't make it better, it just means you prefer low fidelity. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 421 Registered: Apr-08 | PS - www.stereophile.com |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7626 Registered: Feb-05 | UI...what's up man...enjoying AK still. TW, you'll never convince John, he's happy to sell Chevy's and still considers them as good as BMW's and thinks that we should be less brand conscious... The fact that I would rather pay Chevy prices and go away happy as a hog in slop with BMW performance never crosses his mind. I'm inherently cheap...if I could get great performance for cheap I would. BTW John since you last visited (I think)...I bought my wife an NAD C325BEE...nice little amp. However my Mira 3 outperforms it IMO, and by no small amount. I think both my wife and I like the sound of my 10 yr old Creek 4330 better than the NAD...in this case it's just preference as the old Creek doesn't outperform the NAD, in fact it's probably the other way around.. I can distinguish between preference and performance. Once again John, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll take Rega/Naim and you can have NAD...at least we'll both be happy and listening to music..and that's a good thing. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 422 Registered: Apr-08 | Keep in mind that the Chevy Corvette cleans the clock of most if not all BMWs. If I believed there was something that sounded BETTER, rather than simply different, than the M3, I'd go out of my way to sell it. Ironically, I'm selling my Ducati and my Hawks to get a new BMW motorcycle, not for the name, but because they unexpectedly built the exact bike I've been seeking where no one else has. Will I be paying a premium? Maybe about 10% more, but then, there was no other real competition from which to choose. I also sold the Mira and never liked it. Neither did any of my customers when they heard it. Just because you like something better doesn't make it better. Just more to your tastes. Don't extrapolate that to believe everyone will or should agree with you. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 423 Registered: Apr-08 | Keep in mind that the C372 also measures notably, even dramatically, better than the Mira. I suspect the C325BEE does as well. If it were better 'sounding', I would expect it to measure as well or, at the very least, close, to back up the preference. Short of that, I simply chalk it up to the power of suggestion. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 360 Registered: Mar-04 | Hey Art good to see you. I like AudioKarma, not quite sure when I stumbled upon it. I think when you said "Once again John, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll take Rega/Naim and you can have NAD...at least we'll both be happy and listening to music..and that's a good thing" that sounds reasonable. But when you say "The Masters Series is priced where only Mac and Bryston dare tread (exaggeration...obviously) and frankly they don't measure up in any way shape or form" you sound less reasonable. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7629 Registered: Feb-05 | I don't think Rega releases those specs but I'm sure you'll let us know where you found them. John your "if it measures better it must be better" argument is pretty silly. I'm sure even you know better. Sound is about a whole lot more than measurements. I believe those Panasonic AVR's everybody was so excited about measured spectacularly...for music they sounded just plain awful...such is life. I stick by my statement about the Master's series. I've had opportunities to hear them and found them wanting musically. Nice and clean sounding and did all of the audiophile stuff right just didn't involve me. That's OK...lot's of folks aren't too thrilled with Rega...that's ok. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 424 Registered: Apr-08 | Stereophile. We're not talking specs, we're talking actual measurements - distortion, square wave performance, FR accuracy, etc, etc. The Panasonic AVRs didn't measure spectacularly either, I've not seen a digital amp that comes close to SS A or A/B performance. It's kind of funny though. "musical" and "involving" have always been audiophile code words for 'colored'. Just because you don't find the M3's transparency to not be 'involving', doesn't mean that other people don't feel differently. It does *exactly* what I expect an amp to do and nothing else. I'm not sure 'musical' or 'involving' would fair nearly as well as you think in a DBT. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1703 Registered: Jun-05 | "it just means you prefer low fidelity" humm......I prefer low fidelity,your the 1 with a Nad M3 on some Revel Studio2's,how about this with the M3 as your amp, I guarentee my setup will wipe the floor with your system even if you do have the Studio2's.What CDP do you have John? I love how you always revert to your Stereophile measurements buyers guide.And if you have a M5 I really stick by my statement,and John M3 & M5 from Nad dont mean BMW. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7631 Registered: Feb-05 | Like TW said I'm glad you take Stereophile's word for it all. I'm a reader and enjoy the mag. Don't remember when they measured the Mira 3...I'll have to check the reviews I have saved. Also don't remember them doing a review on the Panny...doesn't matter. Truth is whatever we want it to be John...you like yours and I like mine...as it should be. I'd really LOVE Franks...hey Frank ready to donate those Mani 2's to charity...lol! |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 361 Registered: Mar-04 | If a component "did all of the audiophile stuff right" how could it not be an involving experience? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7634 Registered: Feb-05 | I'd ask NAD that question Id. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 425 Registered: Apr-08 | Ummm, yeah, Tawaun, whatever you say. It's kind of funny, but NAD is often compared to VW, but then, VW also makes Audi, Bugatti, Lamborghini. If the M3/M5 said 'Bryston' or 'Rega', or 'Musical Fidelity', all this board would be doing is going on and on about how good they are. I stick by my statement that you prefer lower fidelity sound and really can't grasp concepts like 'transparency' or 'accuracy' or 'realistic'. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 362 Registered: Mar-04 | "I'd ask NAD that question Id". Art your being evasive, it was your statement you know!  |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1704 Registered: Jun-05 | And I stick by my statement that my setup with a real amp that will dance around your M3 with your Revel Studio2's from the "rhythm" Amps measure 100 times better than the best speakers do,so your measurement bickering doesent hold much weight.You just keep measuring that unmusical M3 and we will keep listening to our musical amps,and by the way when ever you get tired of torturing the Studio2's with that uninspiring M3,I got a ole boy over here that will make them dance you know my address. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7635 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm not being evasive Id I'm saying it how it is. If you want to know how to build a rock solid amp that does all of the "audiophile" things right without being involving...best ask those who do it...cause I don't know. I love how you folks who want to be right make more of our statements than we stated. The amp didn't interest me...music sounded like so much detailed drivel to me. The same day as I listened to the NAD Masters the last time I hear the Sugden A21 for the second time...absolutely blew the socks off of the NAD....nuff said. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 363 Registered: Mar-04 | Ok Art fair enough, if you like the Sugden more than the Nad who am I to say otherwise. I just felt when you said, the amp does the audiophile stuff right but still is lacking somewhere sounded a little pretentious. Blew the socks off though, that is significant. What I have found surprising in my audio searches is just how many companies there are making hi-fi components; how do they all stay in business? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10711 Registered: Dec-04 | TW, if you have not sparred with JA before, you are in for a real treat. Same tripe over and over. Pics of the place he works at are around, and be prepared for lots of 'dogma', 'mantra' and other bile regurgitated ad nauseum. And he will always pick out typos, as if that mattered to what real ears do. Have fun, buddy. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 426 Registered: Apr-08 | Pod person, meet other pod person. Tawaun, your statement would fail if tested. It's easy to have opinions, but harder to have them line up with reality. I'll stick with reality. What about the NAD, other than its name, makes it NOT a 'real amp'. It's doing a better job than the Naim SuperNait (or a Rega or an Arcam or......) at reproducing what is fed into it. That's an amp's job, not somehow doing some magic trick. The real magic comes from better speakers, better setup, better room acoustics. God, it's like trying to tell Tom Cruise that his whole religion is based on a bad sci-fi manuscript. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2968 Registered: May-05 | Why do we need our own ears when we have John to tell us what sounds better? John, I asked you this question a while back, but you never answered it: "Because measurements are taken using simulated and static loads, rather than using real speakers and actual music, would it be fair to say that measurements alone are not a good substitue for actual listening and direct side by side comparison - DBT or sighted?" |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2969 Registered: May-05 | "Keep in mind that the C372 also measures notably, even dramatically, better than the Mira." Says who? There's no published measurements from Stereophile that I can find. Kindly post a link. Or is this going to be like your claim that the M3 uses better parts than the Bryston B100 and B60? Remember having to recant that one? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10713 Registered: Dec-04 | Stu, why even post to deaf ears? His eyes point out what really works. Go ahead, JA. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 427 Registered: Apr-08 | Stereophile has the measurements of the Mira, not sure which version. Both the older C370 and newer, but about to be replaced C372 kill it. I'd probably have to go back to 1980 to find an NAD that wouldn't. And don't forget the part about killng the B60 and B100 as well, so let's just say that the *implementation* of the parts is measurably superior. Let me repeat, IF the Brystons or Regas or Naims sounded 'better', there would be a measurable indication of this. I'm just glad car magazines and car enthusiasts aren't so innately naive as audiophiles. Now, yes, I think true DBTs will tell you whether a unit sounds better to a large number of people, or if it just sounds different or if it sounds exactly the same. If you can show a professional DBT test that proves that Brystons or Regas or whatever sound better than a similarly priced NAD, I will drop NAD and do nothing but talk trash about it for the rest of my life. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 364 Registered: Mar-04 | "Why do we need our own ears when we have John to tell us what sounds better"? Exactly, so we all agree then! Long live the Lenbrook group!!! Nad is bringing out some new units this fall/winter and I know how excited the forum is about this development. I read somewhere that Nad is including prat & air in it's newer components so everyone should be satisfied. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7638 Registered: Feb-05 | "Let me repeat, IF the Brystons or Regas or Naims sounded 'better', there would be a measurable indication of this." Just plain wrong. You can't quantify how a measured parameter is going to interact with our senses...they are as individual as we are. You can guess based on our similarities but that's about it. You can say that a piece of gear measures better than another just the same as you can say that a car does 0-60 faster than another but that says noting about which is going to be more involving to listen to or fun to drive. These are too personal to quantify with measurements. I may prefer to go 0-60 in 4.5...in a car that's absolutely no good for anything but drag racing...you may prefer a slower car that corners better because your idea of a good time in a car has nothing to do with 0-60 and everything to do with winding country roads. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 365 Registered: Mar-04 | Hey Stu, nobody doubts that Bryston amps are solid and the warranty speaks for itself. Someone had the 2bsst on audiogon awhile back for $1050 and I was tempted to buy it just to try it, if I did not like it I know I could get my money back (and some extra). But why do they charge $400 for a remote for the b-100sst, that sounds shady to me, who charges for a remote these days? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 428 Registered: Apr-08 | Art, I'm not wrong at all. We can quantify if an amplifier is doing its job better or worse. What YOU like is what YOU like. To say something is better because YOU like it more is preposterous. You feel the need to push your values or even misperceptions on everyone else, rather than simply telling people to go out, try different WELL BUILT, WELL DESIGNED amps and hearing what they like, whether it's real or placebo. You want to convince people in advance of even hearing something. I don't know whether people will prefer the sound of the NADs, but they ARE well built, ARE well designed and DO measure clearly better than most of their competition. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10714 Registered: Dec-04 | Art, let the schmuck do his thing, you listen too well to be bothered. NAD shill. Frigging joke, as always. Ho hum. The guy listens with his eyes. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1705 Registered: Jun-05 | Art,believe me John and I went a go at it on avs many times.I dont want people to get the wrong idea John is very intellagent and 1 of the best minds in audio I know of,and 1 of my favorite people on avs he's always been very nice to me off the forum a true gent,as you all know their not many on that rediclulous site avs.John is also 1 of the most generous and helpful people in the audio world to.On avs he tortures the idiots over there all time,the only difference is John is more by measurements than by listening,which is ultimately wrong in the end but right in the beginning he believes its distorsion and tailoring of sound,we all want something that measures well I know I do.John Loves NHT and Revel,he hates B&W,im starting to hate them as well,John this is not avs your here with a real group of audiophiles over here thats still all willing to learn,everyone over here is reasonable.Have fun John this isnt avs,you dont have a bunch idiots you have to set straight all the time over here,enjoy John this is the perfect forum for you to relax and make friends with and enjoy audio and make you remember what makes you love this hobby in the 1st place. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1706 Registered: Jun-05 | John loves a good debate Nuck,and its tough to beat him at it,my only caveat with Johns train of thought is,if it doesent measure right it doesent sound right,listening comes 1st in my book. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7640 Registered: Feb-05 | Nuck...I tried to keep our discussion civil...no insults...just an honest difference of opinion. Tawaun as you probably know I don't want to get involved in one of those digressing threads. I enjoyed John last time he was here...minus the insults that he and some of the other folks got into. I totally agree with what you said around this being a forum that if one is to relax and understand that differences in opinion are OK one can enjoy. I think that last time John was here he took a lot of BS and dished it as well... Perhaps a fresh start...everyone! "To say something is better because YOU like it more is preposterous." Not at all John...the poster is asking US what is better. If they wanted a spec sheet they would simply check the manufacturers websites and compare specs..instead they asked for our opinions...get it. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1709 Registered: Jun-05 | I know Art,your not the debating type,this isnt a debating forum,but more of a learning forum with a few good debaters,we have all learned new things from each other on this forum,this is a very close knitted group between the people here and even the new people who have come.John has a lot to contribute this forum,but I agree with the insults,we all have our different personalities,hey Art when I 1st got on here on was on a crusade to.Besides the insults John being John isnt like being 1 of the Pauls,what he usually says has real merit,although in this case measuring amplifiers dosesnt hold water like speakers would because all of them measure ions better than the very very speakers,so listening is paramount.But then again what sounds best is best regardless of what measurements say,on speakers they are a lot more cut and dry,me myself I prefer a speaker that measures well,but listening is still the most important. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 429 Registered: Apr-08 | Tauwan, maybe we should send you to the middle east for a peace summit :-) My point is and always will be that subjective preference is personal, not universal. And that just because a product has a certain name does not mean it will have a certain sound or be preferred/not preferred. BTW, although I respect Revel's engineering, I have been critical about some aspects of the Studio2's sound to Revel, mainly with respect to the upper midrange/treble crossover/blend. But then, the first thing I do with any speaker is tell the manufacturer what I think they could have done better. Drove NHT nuts sometimes. Nothing is perfect and no one has any 'magic' secrets. It's all about good engineering, good parts, good value. After that, let the people pick what they like. I'm one of those guys that, when people say 'do I need a better amp', my answer is almost always 'probably not, let's see what you think after a month of the speakers'. Speakers will likely never be as accurate or as low in distortion as the amplifiers at which we turn up our noses. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1710 Registered: Jun-05 | Very true John thats why listening to amplifiers instead of measuring them is the best anylasis,although I dont agree about the Studio2 they are as close as you can get to the perfect speaker with todays technology without equalization of course. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 430 Registered: Apr-08 | Well, as you'll recall, I've been very spoiled by Xd, which still does a few things better than the Studio2s. I'd love to DEQX them, they are ideal for that. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1711 Registered: Jun-05 | John where's the Classic 3's at? maybe it would be fun to send them around to some of the guys,they are a highly revealing very good measuring speakers,it would be fun to see what they sound like on different setups. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1712 Registered: Jun-05 | So are you gonna try to DEQX them? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 431 Registered: Apr-08 | No, too expensive on top of the $16K and the sales of stereo gear is really pathetic right now, even our competition is doing mostly all custom now. But I'd rather have DEQXed Studio2s than any rig in the universe at any price because I know what DEQX can do. That is probably what makes me so opposed to the idea of spending $10K on electronics. For $10K, you can have the new HDP3 and a 6-channel amp and spank the most exotic systems there are with most any *decent* 3-way, let alone a nearly idealized one like the Studio2. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7642 Registered: Feb-05 | My friend here in the local area who is a NAD and NHT dealer is doing almost all custom now. Walk in traffic is near to zilch. I accounted for most of his walk in sales in June with the purchase of the 325BEE...lol! I think a new business model will emerge from all of this for folks in the 2 channel audio industry and my friends from Eugene are on the cutting edge. They deal out of their home, and deal in primarily high end 2 channel. They say that they cannot keep up with business. Their emphasis is personal service first... They have a very nice website and demo gear in their living room. If you are not local and much of their business is not, they are happy to send it to you to demo in your livng/listening room. Several folks here have worked with them from my recommendation and have been very happy with their service. I certainly am looking forward to hearing the Classic 3's in my system. I've not heard an NHT speaker yet that I didn't like. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1713 Registered: Jun-05 | Thats true,I heard the Phase Tech setup and it was amazing,why do you tink the audio world is ahving such a hard time believing that DEQX is better? |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1714 Registered: Jun-05 | Yep Art the 3.3's remain 1 of my favorites,I still they think they are superior to anything NHT makes now,John wont agree but my ears tell me otherwise.The 3.3's on Mark Levinson Mono's,Wadia CDP,and a VTL preamp is 1 of the best systems I've heard and I always dreamed of having that level of performance and emotional involvement that was 11 years ago and i was a young 22 year old basketball player and young dad that grew up on good audio,I now feel I've finnaly acheived that with this new system.It took 11 years to do it with way less of a budget and countless changing and check cashing thank god to China and better technology,there's something about a very low distortion speaker with great bass pitch with wide dynamics organic mids with a sweet extended topend,with gobs of class A power with a tube pre and a monster tube CDP with really good cables its certainlly magic somthing that audio heads should get to experiance in their system,but as John would say its just very good engineering,but its magic to me! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1797 Registered: Jun-07 | My dealer is saying the same thing. He said in the last 4 months the Hi-Fi sales have been next to none. Everyone is buying up cheap home theater crap. All the money right now is in the custom installations. John A- Whats been going on? I see were back at this argument about Measurements again. We all know, as well as you that measurements does not predict how one would hear the gear, or even how the gear does sound. This is a proven fact, even to those who are the real engineers of all this great audio gear. Technically speaking amps today are all built, roughly around the same technology, depending on what class the amp is of course. So, on this forum when we say ' better ' we just mean, in our experience of listening to that product we felt that THAT specific amp brought us more musical enjoyment than the other. That is all. To say that an amp is BETTER than another based on one's opinion is hog wash, but to say that an amp is BETTER based on specs and measurements IMO is also hog wash. That is the great thing about our hobby is that not one person has the same listening ability,tastes,likes,dislikes. So nobody has the same opinion. Some companies out there are building amps today based on measurements, and that is fine. Some companies are building amps based on what sounds good to them. Again, with each manufacturer comes different ideas of what music should sound like. Another great thing about this hobby. If every engineer based their design on measurements alone, I think the selection of stuff out there today would be pretty boring. The M3 amp is a great piece, I believe I could live with it and be a happy camper. It has won many awards. Going over to the other fence we have the B60 which also has won multiple awards, including a Stereophile's product of a year award. Regardless of measurement comparisons and all someone in that magazine felt they thought the B60 was the best sounding integrated amp they had heard. Again, their opinion. Nothing more. The Rega gear presents a totally different sound than NAD, and to say, John, that a NAD amp is better based on measurements is a bit crazy. The sound of a Mira3 is so different, that anyone that loves the Rega sound would probably not care for the NAD sound overly. This is just the way it is, regardless of which amp measures better, don't you think? If a NAIM amp were to measure better on paper, would that make you go buy it instead of your M3? Of course not, to you, the M3 sounds better. In this hobby, that is all that matters bud. I am almost damn sure that the M3, and Revel speakers sound freakin fantastic. So why care what measures better, just as we don't. Surely you didn't build such a great system John for yourself based on Measurements man?lol Don't lie to me, it had to sound good right? B&W is over rated...lol. Nice cars, but if your going to compare a Corvette at least compare it to what Chevy make it to compete against. The likes of Porshe, Ferrari and such. Now were talking.LOL Last, I seen your comment about Obama? Not a Obama believer or what? I can't speak for anyone in the south, but the rest of the world is on their knees preying that guy gets elected.lol I agree with Art, that on this forum, if people ask for our opinions, they get it. Thats JUST our opinion though. Our opinions are based on what we hear. The day people shop for hi fi based on measurements alone is the day there is going to be a lot of unhappy music lovers. Of course, thats why were in this hobby to begin with right? To enjoy the music, not the gear. Lets try not to argue about engineering anymore, I have to hear about it at work enough as it is.lol. Stick around this time John, your input is always welcome. Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2970 Registered: May-05 | "Stereophile has the measurements of the Mira, not sure which version." Stereophile doesn't have any posted Mira measurements - http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/401rega/ I agree with your belief that amps don't have PRaT, rythym, or anything else like that. You're absolutely right when you state a good amp doesn't add or subtract anything. But you're missing something here - Amps that supposedly have PRaT don't add PRaT, they simply let it through. Same can be said for sources and speakers. Too many companies mess up the timing. Just because there's no measurement for PRaT doesn't mean its not there. There's no measurement for soundstage height, width, and depth. Does that mean there's no such thing as soundstaging? There's no measurement for imaging accuracy and true to life sized images. Does that mean there's no such thing? Just because it can't be measured doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Often times it means they haven't figured out a way to meause it accurately if at all. |
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