Paging mr. vigne (speakers for tubes and low-powered vintage)
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Bronze Member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 39 Registered: Jan-06 | hi guys, been a while since the last post, but I've been lurking nonetheless. I deployed my sonos system (and may have to page frank about that..), but as I assess strengths and weaknesses of current system, I wondered if we couldn't create a short list of what jan has contributed on, "tube friendly" speakers. I ask not because I'm ready to start down the search for the holy grail of "tube sound" but rather because one of my favorite amps is an old sanyo made sears integrated mini amp that puts out 20 wpc x 2 very nicely (warm, sweet, not analytic at all) and has a great tuner to boot. I'm also interested (for near field office and "sound support" during party mode (the sonos can all play in sync) in picking up one of the "trends" type low-powered amps (i.e. apparently pretty good at relatively low volumes but certainly not for power hungry speakers). finally, I thought of jan as someone who might know this, (but anyone can jump in) the relative, how to say, suitability? quality? or the sound "type" of a vintage yamaha cr 240 that I have (and which managed to burn the cones of some old genesis speakers. a story I can tell another day). Is there a style of speakers that might work well with this (maybe 40 wpc?) or is it even worth bothering about (or rather just put it out in the garage with those white and bright all weather speakers for noise making merriment?) sorry for the length. I hope it is coherent. at this point, please don't ask me what I'm looking for, what is missing, etc, as I've got about 5 or 6 listening spaces between an basement office, gameroom, kitchen-entertaining area, garage-grilling in backyard and living room-tv space. I'm simply trying to make a long term plan for getting closer to that audio nirvana that yee the masters doth know at least something about, right? cheers btw, the sonos may not be super hifi, but it changes the way you interact with and live with music. sorry, I guess that was a troll-like, no what do you call that, shilling?  |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12903 Registered: May-04 | . I'm not sure what you call it - I remember the secind generation Yamaha and the original Genesis line so I'm not up on what the "kids" call things nowdays - and, unfortunately, I'm not sure what your question is. Do you just want to know the advisability of using the Yamaha as a part of a system? If so, how long since it's been in use? . |
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Silver Member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 199 Registered: Apr-08 | mnr3, Among the brands that offer a very efficient, and easy to drive speaker, Zu Loudspeakers out of Utah are some of the finest. Work great with 2 watt SET kit. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3147 Registered: Sep-04 | Klipsch, Living Voice, Audio Note... |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithCanada Post Number: 2190 Registered: Feb-04 | Altec... |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12911 Registered: May-04 | . Nice answers. What's the question? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithCanada Post Number: 2191 Registered: Feb-04 | "tube friendly" speakers. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12912 Registered: May-04 | . Really?! So what's the Yamaha got to do with it? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7505 Registered: Feb-05 | Appears to be looking for speakers that'll work well with a Yamaha CR240 or if it's not worth it (buying decent speakers for the Yammie) then let him know so that he can get on with it. That was my interpretation.... If you're looking for audio nirvana you will not likely find it in that Yammie and any speaker....move on. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12914 Registered: May-04 | . Have you heard that particular Yamaha receiver, Art? It's second generation and has much of what made Yamaha's reputation in consumer electronics. The real reputation, not the one they have now. It even has a real wood veneer cabinet which is made from trees Yamaha grew themself. This was a well built receiver that led the pack of low priced receivers in its day. There wasn't much better in receivers without spending a good bit more cash. I owned a CR220 for several years as part of a bedroom system and gave it away to a good friend with no reservations about the quality of the product. Now, not long after the "40" series, Yamaha started to produce less impressive product, but the "20" and "40" series are worth having. It ain't McIntosh but it'll do in a pinch - if it works. The problem is Yamaha no longer supports any of their older product so parts are not available when needed. The CR240 does have sufficient guts to drive something other than high sensitivity speakers. We sold this day in and day out with Large Advents. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7506 Registered: Feb-05 | Yes Jan I've heard it. I had a CR820 recently...decent perhaps but nowhere near as good as the Creek 4330 I presently have where that receiver was. I certainly wouldn't make it the centerpiece of my main system YMMV. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12915 Registered: May-04 | . But you like old Pioneer? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7509 Registered: Feb-05 | Who said... I also owned 2 old Pioneers...I liked the Yamaha's and the Sansui's better. I stated so at the time. I believe that I was quite clear that the Yamaha's performed better than my other vintage receivers. However they were clearly not as good as the amps that followed... |
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Bronze Member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 40 Registered: Jan-06 | sorry I had to drop out of the discussion for a few days--crazy weekend and Monday. I was getting ready to prompt Jan again the other night about if he knew the specifics of that receiver (as I have been impressed with his knowledge of gear from that period) but he managed to answer my obtuse questions just as I had hoped before my prompt. To restate, I was trying to get an idea about the relative power (and quality) of the vintage yammie, and in a broader context, recommendations for speakers to complement amps of the lower powered variety, including the trends or other tri-path (for near field in office-playroom) and my vintage sanyo, and, if it were deemed a reasonable performer, the yammie thanks guys |
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Bronze Member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 41 Registered: Jan-06 | follow up so it appears that the yammie need not be the amp to exile to the garage. I thought it was clear I didn't think it was in the league of a creek or meant to be a centerpiece, no? anyway, any chance we can expand the list of speakers a bit? to be a bit more precise, I'm looking for something that rises above the big box retailer "plays loud and bright" speakers. I'm looking for a bookshelf or smallish floorstander that can put out balanced sound paired with a low-watt producing amp, even if the latter might be able to handle some swings in current, as I gather the yammie may be, (40 wpc) or the sanyo at 20 wpc (sorry if you've never heard the latter, you'll have to trust me and my ears, it's a clean little performer, but not a creek, bryston or mac obviously). I guess I'm looking for some speakers I can grow with in the $500-$1000 range, with no expectation that they will be the last pair I ever buy. actually, take all the above as a preface to a simple question: suggestions for speakers to pair/demo with a 20wpc tube amp you've never heard (of) thanks again |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12917 Registered: May-04 | . You ask a tough question. The speakers that have been named above all exist in what would be considered a high voltage sensitivity type design. That's the only thing all of them have in common. Obviously, with 20 watts you want a speaker that can make the most out of those watts (as you should with any amp/speaker combination) without running the amp to its limits and into clipping. With most of the manufacturers listed however, there are limitations to their designs that cannot easily be addressed in such a short form as this thread. One problem with most of the above named manufacurers is the size of most of their products. Consider the fact that the three basic, unshakeable quantities a loudspeaker designer starts with are bass extension (how low does the speaker play with clarity), box size (how big is it) and voltage sensitivity (how loud it will play for "X" watts in). Changing one will alter the other two. Therefore, many high sensitivity loudspeakers will either have compromised bass extension or they will be fairly large enclosures. Large enclosures present several problems not the least of which will be the box resonances inherent to large, flat panels which are far more difficult to control and minimize in a large box than in a smaller enclosure. Several of the designs named above rely heavily on horn loading and they do so in the mids and highs but not in the lows until you get to a very large enclosure. Just my opinion but I've never heard a design with a fully horn loaded upper end and dynamic drivers in the bass that sounded balanced to my ears. Next, only one of the manufacturers mentioned has been given consideration to the interaction with tubes. Most of the names given are now building for solid state amplification and often of the lower priced variety. Though, IMO, there really should be no difference when you are designing an amplifier friendly speakers, what tubes require in a speaker is not the same as what transistors can tolerate. I will assume you're not going into esoterica and looking for an OTL tube amp. That means whatever you buy will have output transformers. OT's mean a relatively high output impedance which shifts with frequency and can even be a frequency limiting device of not done well. A high output impedance means an interaction with the load impedance following Ohm's Law, as the impedance of the speaker shifts so does the amount of voltage supplied to that frequency. The best choice of any amplifier but particularly a tube amp will be a speaker with a high nominal impedance - nothing that dips beneath six Ohms - and a very stable impedance curve. If you find that, you are very likely to have found a speaker that doesn't require high current delivery from the amplifier. Such a speaker would be well suited to your prospective tube amp. So, you'll have to decide what your trade off will be. Big box or less bass extension. It's quite easy in today's market to find a good standmounted speaker with extension down into the lower mid bass and fill in with a quality subwoofer to gain the degree of deep bass extension you desire. Otherwise you will more than likely find a big box that still can't do deep bass and sounds bad to boot. If you have to live with somewhat limited bass extension due to budget constraints, it's better to do that than to buy a boom box that only supplies one note bass. Buy the best speaker possible on your budget and proceed from there as the money allows. Do this to get started, start reading about tube amps and you'll find speaker recommendations. With the internet markets fairly bustling with tube amps the market for speakers to pair with these amps is also quite busy. You should find multiple manufacturers who offer their products over the interent which are designed exactly for the type of amplifier you are considering. Keep in mind the three basics that a speaker must adhere to and view anyone who claims to have found a way around those laws with suspicion. If I were to give any further direction, I would suggest you place "single driver, full range loudspeaker" in a search engine and start reading about that sort of design. It might be a bit more purist than what you are looking for but it is a good way to get a top notch speaker for minimal dollars. Kits for such speakers are available on line and offer a further route to value if you can screw a driver into a box. Good luck and let us know what you find. http://www.worldtubeaudio.com/ } . |
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Bronze Member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 42 Registered: Jan-06 | hi jan, thanks for that advice, it puts succinctly what I had of course already read from posts years back. I was really close to pulling the trigger on some of tim's lings; just been in the wings lurking. here are some more details that your pointed comments allow me to add (jeez, I said, don't ask me what I want and Jan makes me say it anyway, he's good, no?  ..don't want bass extension except in this regard: timing is most important. I'm in an old house with hardwood floors, plaster wall, and relatively high ceilings and rooms all cut up in small bizarre areas (opposite of an open floor plan, lots of walls with doors and windows, but few full walls; a maze). So bass gets boomy pretty quickly (speakers usually close to walls or corners) If it means anything about my ears, probably my favorite speakers are my sealed enclosure (i.e. no port)infinity reference one's, small 80's bookshelf with 6.5 woofers --regarding the ohm dip, can I assume that manufacturer number of nominal, say 8 ohm, is not very useful? where does one find the actual dip in impedance experienced in vitro? sdfr: I know Jan has been a fan of this; I also know he does not like to name brands, but how about the comparison of your bbc bookshelf whatevers versus your current (did you build them?) single driver (or one still available on market today with or without kit) --do you still have the home built, battery-powered Italian amp (maybe a tripath?) finally I will mention that my sears-sanyo is 20 wpc but it must have a big power supply because it is heavy and plays quite effortlessly with smaller bookshelfs I also have, to be clear, 2 of Sonos 50 wpc amps (ZP100). they are also quite robust judging from weight and from Frank's suggestion that they could drive some of the totems with good results. obviously not so much in the market for amps, now. need some clean sources and speakers first. trying to figure out the plan and budget. thanks again |
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Bronze Member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 43 Registered: Jan-06 | out of curiosity: anyone familiar with triangle (french) speakers? they seem to be the right genre, but of course no local dealers here in sunny cleveland. ciao |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10643 Registered: Dec-04 | mnr, I get the feeling that you would have liked the Ling's with a small tube amp...as much as I do. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7511 Registered: Feb-05 | I've listened to Triangle speakers on a number of occasions. I've heard some folks complain that they are bright however I did not have that experience. Then again I was listening to them with a very nice Cairn integrated and CD player which really had great synergy with them. It's all about putting together a system I suppose...synergy and all of that good stuff. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 44 Registered: Jan-06 | is it also possible, Art (and others--a ? for us still at the bottom of the steep learning curve), that because Triangles are efficient (90+), which I assume must mean higher upper frequencies (that are low energy-consuming, right? vs bass which takes air and current?), simply giving a bunch of juice should make them scream (and if I'm not mistaken, at least some of the triangles may use a directed horn config for the tweet)? similar to klipsch, then? -- anyway, any comments or corrections welcome. at least I'm getting this all written down (for the how-manyeth-time for y'all). thanx guys |
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Bronze Member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 45 Registered: Jan-06 | another follow up for Jan: the speakers that the yammie burned were indeed the genesis 2's (I think) with about an 8in woofer and 8" passive radiator. the tweeter (and maybe x-overs) survived the meltdown of the woofer foam, but the enclosures survived. since I'm a dis-placed New Orleanian, from well before the storm (93), I'm exiled in Cleveland; homesickness has inspired me to fly 2 sacks of crawfish up every spring, in which the old genesis pair as table stands. Worth it to get some cheap (or not) drivers and play around? any suggestions? speakers today, even for the same cost of a bunch of boutique drivers, would prolly still sound better. does anyone remember anything about the sound of the original genesis? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12920 Registered: May-04 | . "can I assume that manufacturer number of nominal, say 8 ohm, is not very useful? where does one find the actual dip in impedance experienced in vitro?" Search the web for reviews with tests. Stereophile is the best place to start but they only review product with a minimum of five retail outlets. If you can't find a review, call the manufacturer and ask. " I know Jan has been a fan of this; I also know he does not like to name brands, but how about the comparison of your bbc bookshelf whatevers versus your current (did you build them?) single driver (or one still available on market today with or without kit) --do you still have the home built, battery-powered Italian amp (maybe a tripath?)" I still have the T amp but it doesn't get much use. The Mac tubes still sound better but the T amp has defeated several other amps along the way for a cost of about $200. I use Merrill ZigmaHornets right now and they have been reconfigured into a dipole arrangement with the additional drivers CM sold me. So not quite the "plan" as sold by Merrill. I had to change the enclosuer somewhat to get the dipole drivers to work together in a single enclosure. Where the as is Hornet is a straight quarter wave pipe, what I have now is modelled after an Omega QWML. Both the 3/5a's and the single driver Hornets, IMO, excell at coherency and tone. "if I'm not mistaken, at least some of the triangles may use a directed horn config for the tweet)? similar to klipsch," No, the Triangles use what would be considered a waveguide while the upper end of all Klipsch use an expotential horn. Similar to each other in desired effect but not the same in use. "Worth it to get some cheap (or not) drivers and play around? any suggestions?" Not in my opinion. The Genesis were a good but not great speaker that rode in on the Boston/MIT wave of AR/KLH/Advent, etc. Lots has changed since the mid 1970's and most of it for the better. Rap your knuckles on the Genesis' particle board cabinet and you'll hear a pretty lively box. Crossovers have changed in many ways for better performance. . |
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Bronze Member Username: Mnr3Post Number: 46 Registered: Jan-06 | thank you for the thorough answer. an addendum: what about my notions about sensitivity and brightness. that is, am I wrong to have the impression that the more respected speakers TEND to have lower sensitivity #'s than the mass-produced variety, and if so, what would be the exceptions to the rule? ...a speaker like Omega comes to mind: I believe it's up there in sensitivity, but is also a single driver with basically no crossover to dissipate energy. I can start looking at the tube forums, but I'm so familiar with most of your tastes, it feels more like home here. merci --Marvin |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12922 Registered: May-04 | . High sensitivity and "brightness", which tends to fall in the upper harmonics of most instruments, don't necessarily go hand in hand. Unfortunately, it would appear many high voltage sensitivity designs suffer from a touch to an excessive boost in the upper mid to high treble regions. Part of this is the way a designer goes about gaining higher efficiency from a speaker system. A horn is the most efficient way to provide additional output over and above the driver's inherent sensitivity. A horn makes for a very directional dispersion pattern in most cases which we aren't used to hearing from dynamic drivers. This high level of on axis sound is going to be perceived as "too much" in many cases when our ears are referenced to hearing the more broadly dispersed sound of a dome tweeter carrying the top seven octaves of response. Naturally a designer who employs horns will most likely make the claim you have been listening to something that is all wrong and you have been doing so for the last four decades. A case could be made for that concept. Since most horn loaded systems are more directional, sometimes all it takes is a bit of toe in to resolve the issue in any given room - and remember limited dispersion is not necessarily a bad thing depending on your overall goals for reproducing music. Sometime the horns are just not well designed and implemented. You'll have to listen and judge for yourself which is which and what appeals to your own sense of music in your own room. . |
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