Integrated amp for Dynaudio Focus 110
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New member Username: Yes_cxPost Number: 1 Registered: Jul-08 | Budget is $800 so I guess I have to go with integrated amps. I am looking at Rotel RA-1062, Marrantz PM6002, NAD C325/355BEE, Cambrigde Audio 540A V2.0, have you listened to those combinations? i would love to hear some opinions. I will pretty much buy the amp online and may have very limited audition opportunities. Also I need speaker cable, looking at audioquest type4 or CV-4, would the DBS in those CV-4s make a difference? Also how do they compare to Monsters' Z1 or Z2? I mostly listen to Classical, and some Jazz and vocal. Finally, do you have some idea about a good pair of stand for the Focous 110? I heard those speakers really need good stands, but I am a bit reluctant to pay the primium of Dynaudio's own stands. Thanks a lot for your imputs! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2905 Registered: May-05 | There are a ton of factors involved in which amp is best to use. The Focus 110s are very good speakers and need very good amplification (read clean, not necessarily powerful) and a very good source to make them worth your time. Cross the NAD 325BEE off the list. Simply not good enough, power and performance wise. The amps listed sound different from one another. What type of presentation do you like - forward, laid back, bright, warm, smooth, aggressive, lean, rich, etc? Simply crisp highs and good bass doesn't mean anything. To be honest, I'd forgo the expensive cables and stands at this point and add that money to the amplification and source (if necessary). Good cables have advantages, but you should sort out the components and room issues first, then finish with cables IMO. The additional money will yield far better results with these speakers. I'd look a level higher, but that's just me. Think companies like Rega, Naim, second hand Bryston, Roksan, etc. Atacama stands get very good reviews. I have a pair of Apollo stands. Very inexpensive (relatively speaking) and very good. What amplification was used when you heard the Focus? If you haven't heard them, why did you choose them? What source do you have? Where are you located? |
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New member Username: Yes_cxPost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-08 | Hi, Thanks a lot for your reply. Indeed I need some good amps for those speakers. But I really try to make it no more than $1k. My ideal amp is the Krell KAV 300-i, but it is way over my budget atm. I am looking for more musical presentation, (one reason I chose Dynaudio over B&W's) and a bit towards warm side. I listenedn to some NADs Rotels a while ago with some other speakers, (BW, Paradigm) and heard the limitation of those amps, I do wish there is a really good one for me to move up to with in reasonable price range. (I would pay $1k for a used Krell if there is any out there) I haven't been playing with any hi-fi stuff for a while, any specific model from those brand you would recommend in my price range? (maybe second hand) I heard Roksan really goes well with Dynaudios. I got a pretty good deal for those 110s, (below 1K, after some cash back) the source bought them used Sunfire which I am not a big fan of and did not really have a good chance to listen to them. They do carry Rotels and may also give me some good deal on them. I could arrange an audition with them again on Monday. For those cable I mentioned, I could get them around $100 new on ebay, don't know if that sounds reasonable. I live in Delaware, any place around to shop for those Atacama stands? Thanks a lot! |
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Bronze Member Username: LamcamOrange County, CA USA Post Number: 95 Registered: Nov-07 | Cross the Rotel off your list too. I had it and was not happy with it. Go with Stu's recommendations. |
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New member Username: Yes_cxPost Number: 3 Registered: Jul-08 | I agree Rotel sounds a bit too bright, and can be a bit harsh sometimes, especially with B&Ws. Haven't listened to it with Dynaudios. So what's your specific problem with your Rotel Lamcam? What speakers did you use with it? Then not much left in my price range? (perhaps even with in 1K?) Any one has expirience with the Marrantz or Cambridge Audio? any other good candidate? Thanks a lot guys! Btw my CD player is Marrantz SA-8001 |
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New member Username: Yes_cxPost Number: 4 Registered: Jul-08 | Ok, now I am looking at some higher level amps than NAD and Rotels. I may get a Krell 300iL for $1200, (stretching), or a Naim Nait 5i for $900 and 5i2 for $1200. I heard from another disccusssion initiated by Stu that the Naim Nait 5i is really good for the Focous 110 I have. Any thoughts about that guys? Also, How do you think about the difference between Naim Nait 5i and 5i2, and Krell 300iL vs 300i or even 300r? Thanks a ton! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3075 Registered: Sep-04 | The Nait 5i or 5i-2 is only just about powerful enough to drive FOCUS 110s. I've done it on a few occasions and it's a pretty good result but there is limited volume in larger rooms since the Nait has only so much power. The difference between a Krell and a Naim is quite big. Krells have a lot of power with a big powerful warm sound, but they don't time particularly well. The Naim is more about pace and timing and less about power and scale. |
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New member Username: Yes_cxPost Number: 5 Registered: Jul-08 | Thank you Frank, I think I am more into quality than quantity as this moment, if i have to choose, so maybe i would lean more to the Nait, plus Krell is abit more expensive. One other amp that I have spotted a good deal is Accuphase E212, I have heard it may not have quite enough power for the Focous, despite its higher rating than the Naim, but may sound more musical, any thoughts? Thanks! |
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New member Username: Yes_cxPost Number: 6 Registered: Jul-08 | Alright Frank, Help me out there! My living room is 13" by 20" (4X6m) with carpet, would the Nait 5i2 do the job for me? I occasionally will play loud, (to the level similar to real orchestra Tutti passage if possible) Can it hold it self at that kind of volume? But if I had to choose I probably will still trade it for a warmer musical tone at normal volume (without the lost of detail). I auditioned the Focus 110 with Rotel RC1070+RB1080 at the dealer and was rather disappointed, the bass was weak (with the RX 1052 it was lose) and highs a bit harsh. Though they did not put the speakers on a good stand, and claim the speakers were not broke in yet (almost new). So Frank, now you know more about my situation. Nait 5i, Accuphase E212, 300il, pick one for me, will you ?  |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2907 Registered: May-05 | Your use of musical is relatively meaningless, Xing. Everyone's idea of musical is different. Its about as imformative as saying 'good bass.' Everyone's idea of good bass is different. If you don't like the Rotel, I'm not so sure Naim will be up your alley. Not that they're one in the same, but they're not opposites either. Naim detractors usually describe it as harsh, bright, and in your face. Not warm by any means. Its also a lean presentation. To most people, its a love it or hate it presentation. Just about everyone respects it, but that doesn't mean they have to like it. To my ears, the Nait 5i and Focus sounded pretty good together. Not the perfect match, but very good none the less. But that's according to my tastes. The more I read, the less I think our tastes coincide. There are a ton of audio companies out there. Us picking a few for you isn't going to do anyone any favors. If you like the Krell that much, go for it. Its your money and ears, no one else's. Krell makes a very good product. I'm not a fan of their sound, but I respect it. I'd imagine that you'd feel the same way about Naim. But by all means, go out and audition as much as you can. If you haven't heard Roksan or Creek, they may be worth hunting down too. Not that they're warm and smooth, but they're a little more acceptable to more people than Naim is. |
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New member Username: Yes_cxPost Number: 7 Registered: Jul-08 | Hi Stu, Thanks a lot for your informative reply. Indeed I should be more specific about "musical" The more I auditition and the more I found I like a warmer mid range sound. Then I am very sensitive to any harshless in the high frequency, but a bit easier on the lower end. (not that eager for a overly well defined low bass if I cannot afford) I myself am a Pianist and I guess we use the word "musical" too much too often and blured the definition. It's just something that's non-mechanical (I am also a Physics PhD candidate, but I think I am more a pianist than a physicist). Bright is not neccessarily a bad thing for me, not at all (a 9" Steinway can be extremely bright, sweetly bright, and that's actually something I love and one big reason I prefer them to Yamahas) But being bright is just risky for a stereo system to be harsh which is then all bad. So actually when I said too bright, it just meant harsh. And I guess I do have to audition a Naim to see what it sounds to me. I may love it as you do, or as I love the Steinways. Just hope it won't sound harsh to me. Then I still wish to get some suggestions or knowledge from you guys, did you have any expirience with the Accuphase? any issue for E212 to match Focus? I heard people say it is not powerful enough. I do have a really good deal available but may not be able to audition it. Last thing, the E212 is a 100-105V Japan version, how big it is an issue to use it here in US with 110V outlets? Thank you so much guys. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10543 Registered: Dec-04 | Xing, no problem with the voltage here, as both are 60Hz. I run an pld Pioneer from Japan with no problems. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3086 Registered: Sep-04 | Xing Chen, Very difficult to help you. If the FOCUS 110s were really quite new and not run in, then you haven't heard them! Dynaudios are notorious for taking ages to run in and sound decent. They are not harsh or brash. They have a remarkably deep bass too. Your description (especially with the relatively powerful Rotel) is of Dynaudios which are not run in properly, so it makes sense. I use the Nait5i-2 with FOCUS110s in a 7.5m x 5.5m room. It won't go so loud that a well recorded orchestral tutti will sound real, but it'll go loud enough to be impressive and enjoyable. At normal listening levels, you will get the usual dynamic swings you would want for classical music to sound right. For example, Rachmaninov's 2nd piano concerto's first movement starts very quietly and builds, then quietens then builds again. Provided you stay within the limits of the amplifier you will get a great sense of the scale and depth of the orchestra, but as soon as you go slightly beyond, the illusion shatters with a flattening of dynamics (and eventually distortion if you keep trying). Where you would really approeciate the Naim is in its portrayal of microdynamics, the interplay between orchestral members, the chitchat between instruments and the change from slow to fast to slow again. Here, the Naim hits you emotionally with its fast change of pace and immediate intimacy. By contrast, the Krell will be able to achieve louder overall passages and give you more scale and depth. The big swathes in a largo flow slowly and sonorously, impressing you with power and depth. However, in the more intimate sections, the chitchat between instruments and microdynamics as the various sections listen to each other for their cues, you lose out with the Krell, it doesn't have that immediate intimacy and attack. On solo piano (e.g. Ludovico Einaudi's Le Onde), with the Naim you get the percussive nature of the piano allied to the nuance of the playing. With the Krell you get the broad sweeping statement and the power of the instrument. It's a diffiult choice here and both are valid. I ahve not heard the Accuphase so I cannot comment on it I'm afraid. |
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New member Username: Yes_cxPost Number: 8 Registered: Jul-08 | Hi Frank, Thank you very much for a detailed, very helpful reply. Due to the immediate avialability, and even a bit of my curiosity, I went for the Accuphase (also for the good pricing). My first impression was pretty good with this combo. Although I still hear the hint where the speakers were not run in (tight mids, and the speakers did not "disappear" in many case), but they are much better than I heard with the Rotels and the brightness in highs is almost gone! I believe the Accuphase sounds similar to the Nait 5i-2 as you described. It also lacks the power to get a real life loudness in an orchestra work, but is extremely articulated and intimate(love the vocal and violins!), so I believe I got into the right direction for me this time. (a bigger Accuphase is beyong my budget atm) Now I also have a chance to trade up to a Focus 140 with little or no loss. I did feel this combo can sound restrained at those tutti sections, and the bass is still a bit weak to my taste. I think this has a lot to do with the power from the amp but still cound'nt help thinking it's from the limitation set by the small cabin and bass driver. And I know it's me, but I am just not that confident when looking at those small cabins when they are playing so loud, hehe. (closing eyes did help!) And the extra 4hz at the lower end on paper does look tempting! Then I do have a bit more technical question: is the 140 easier or harder to be driven? it has a bit higher sensitivity rating, which obviously is a plus, but also I heard the bigger driver units make it asking for even more power. So, it is much appreciated if some one can elabrate on this a bit more. Feel free to throw in some complicated theory if it would help, some times I just love theories I will eventually upgrade my amps for sure so even it they are equal in drivability, any real benifit from the 140 would help me deciding going for it. Thank you guys! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3114 Registered: Sep-04 | Very difficult. On paper the 140 should not be quite so difficult to drive, but in practice I find it is a very demanding speaker. I would never put a Nait5i in front of a 140! |
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New member Username: Yes_cxPost Number: 9 Registered: Jul-08 | Thanks Frank! After auditioning both in home, I found the 140 to be more favorable for its more openess in the lower range. The mid-high from the 110 sounds a tad better to me at this moment but I am kind of thinking/hoping it was because they are more broken in. And I tend to believe the hint of nervous sound from the 110s when played louder in the lower range are due to its size limitation and is going to stay. So I am inclined to keeping the 140s. And about the drivability, they sound similar with my E-212 which is barely sufficient to drive them and cannot really go to life like volume of an orchestra. So now I am more thinking about finding a stronger amp for the 140s with similar quality. I have heard good reviews about the Moon I5 and I3 (SE) which are in the similar price range. Though they have similar power rating as my E212, people are talking about their power to be sufficient to drive even 84db speakers. Do you have any experience with them? Or further, the difference between the two? In your experience, how much more one need to spend on a amp for the 140s that can yield a general improvement than my current E-212 (or say than one that is similar to the Nait 5I2?) and what are the popular choices? Your input is much appreciated! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3151 Registered: Sep-04 | Sorry, I have no experience with either the E-212 or the Moon amplifiers. I can't help you on this. On Saturday I was using a Naim SuperNait with the FOCUS 110s to great effect. No problems with drive and power. But a SuperNait is a LOT of money, much more than a Nait5i, even if it is only rated at 85wpc - it has a very stiff power supply. |
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New member Username: Yes_cxPost Number: 10 Registered: Jul-08 | I recently found a very informative Chinese forum with many serious Taiwanese audiofiles. A lot of people are playing around with Dynaudio speakers (they love/admire dynaudio a lot) and to my (pleasant) surprise, Accuphase was one of the popular amplifiers they choose for Dynaudios (especially for focus and contour line). And many hi-fi shop in Taiwan use Accuphase with Dynaudios as demo units. However most consider E3XX and up to begin with, and much as I feel, E-212 will only be barely enough. So I am thinking my upgrade may just stay in accuphase line since I do like how they sound with dynaudios. (however even an E-308 is significantly more expensive than a E-212) And just some opinios to share, other (mostly higher end) amps they like with Dynaudios are Ayre, Pass, Theta, Krell, Classe seperates, and they love the Gryphon Diablo with Dynaudios. Meanwhile, Mcintosh is considered one of the worst match and Bryston is not recommended for Dynaudios as well. For my own recent experiments, I found in my room, a proper toe-in is VERY important and that make the sound much better in about every aspect. (I read the sterophile 140 review where he put the 140s almost straight forward) That's just one more lively lesson for myself how things can be so different! Oh, here is the link to the forum I mentioned above, if you can read Chinese http://www.myav.com.tw/forum/printthread.php?threadid=8828 |
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