I need your expert help in upgrading my stereo set-up. I like my current set-up immensely.
My System: Totem Arros, Primaluna Prologue 2, Signal Cable, Hero Inter Connects, old Sony DVD/CD Player.
My upgrade plan is to add a CD Player & Sub-Woofer.
CD Player Options: Rega Appollo, Naim CD5i, CA Azur 840C, Cairn fog V2 (not easily available), Simaudio Moon Equinox , Sony dvp-ns999es, any good tubed CDP (All Pre-Owned)
Sub-Woofer Options: REL Strata III, REL Storm III
So I need your help for the following questions:
1. Which change will make more positive impact on the sound system....CDP or Sub ? ( I will go with the second upgrade few months down the lane ).
2. If CDP needs to be upgraded, what would you recommend between Naim, Rega, CA, Cairn Fog, sim and tubed cdps for my system (primaluna 2 and Arros) ? I like warm organic music with excellent vocals, instruments and strings with good BASS. Just want to remind again that I am using tube integrated (primaluna 2) for getting the warm preso and planning to add REL Sub for the quality BASS.
3. Since I already have a tube integrated in the line, should I be looking for a CDP that delivers excellent PRaT and Bass like Nait CD5i / Simaudio (or) more warm presentation of Rega (or) more warmer tubed cd players?
4. I read great reviews of 840C and it was being compared to Naim CD5i. I would like to know the system harmony of CA 840C with Primaluna 2 and Totem Arros for my music ?
5. Since I would like to add more Quality BASS (using REL), which of these CDPs make more sense ?
6. How does a modestly priced Sony dvp-ns999es (pre-owned) compete with the likes of Naim, Sim, Rega, etc ?
I will be eagerly awaiting your feedback for improving my 2 channel system. Thanking you all in advance
I would look at a sub with a smaller driver such as the Era 8 inch or Velodyne SPL 800i and for a CD player I would look at the Sim. Good smooth sounding player that won't accentuate the negatives on the Prima Luna piece. If you want it more pacey I would look at a pre owned CD5i or Rega Apollo.
I'm not hearing that good of feedback on the Cambridge except for the Robert Harley review.
Good luck...nice system BTW. Are you sure you need a sub? Big room I guess.
I agree with Art on both counts. The 8" offering from Era has so much snap and punch...not so deep, but unless you are looking for Organ depth, Mike, the 8" is a good listen.
From your description, and if you are happy with the PrimaLuna, the simaudio player is a good piece, from what I have read. That one will need you to listen to it and find out. I have never not recommended the Apollo, either.
Thanks for your feedback. Good to know that you owned Prologue2 and that makes it "words coming out of experience". From your words Sim looks like a neutral CDP and Naim CD5i and Apollo seem to be more pacy and punchier versions. Does it mean Apollo is a good compromise between Sim and Naim ?
Also, you seem to be saying Sim does not accentuate the negatives of Primaluna 2...do you mind elaborating the negatives you are referring to ?
My preference is warm organic preso with my interests in Jazz, Vocals, Instruments and pop....what CDP would you recommend between Apollo, CD5i and Sim ?
Also...surprisingly I did not see you recommending any REL sub...rather you recommended ERA 8" and Velo....Any reasons ?
Finally....Can you let me know the systems you drove with Primaluna 2 and your observations?
In my system the Prologue 2 had a tendency toward edginess or brightness. In the end I prefer the Prologue 1 to the 2. The Sim cd player is smooth, not really warm so you get a very musical sound without losing any of the detail. The other 2 cd players may work well as well however I think that their design principles are counter to what the Prima Luna's presentation is.
Rel's aren't as fast as some folks believe. There are REL's that I would recommend but they start with the R205 and 305 and continue with any B series sub. The the other REL's and their legend for speed is exaggerated. The Era is a good inexpensive sub and the Velo is also good for the money, also they both have an 8 inch driver.
I had the Prima Luna in a system with an Audio Refinement CD complete and later an Apollo. It drove ProAc Studio 110 speakers and was linked with all Analysis plus and later Kimber Kable interconnects and speaker cable. I also tried Cardas for some pieces. It was a very unsatisfactory system and I eventually traded in the whole thing for a full Rega system...much happier.
Thanks for the explanation. So you prefered the EL-34s (PP1) to KT-88s (PP2) or did you try EL-34s on PP2 as well ?
I understand the reason for you prefering the sim cdp...but I am not sure what you mean by Naim / Apollo design principles are counter to what the primaluna's preso is....can you please explain what you mean by this ?
I did try the EL34's, Mullards and EH, on the PL2...didn't work for me. My local tech gave an explanation as to why it didn't...I have since forgotten.
Relative to the design principles, please read the thread about the Epos ELS 303's. I explained to David Mitchell the same thing (very briefly) and the same applies IMO to the Prima Luna that I applied to NAD. I'm at work and only have time for brief replies...can only use the internet at lunch (all 1/2 hr of it).
Keep in mind that the dealer I bought the PL2 from had all of them returned..not a happy camper. Everyone complained that something just didn't sound right...one of the returnees was an employee...yikes. Perhaps that was a bad batch...you know how it goes in manufacturing.
I tried reading through and could not understand that much. May be you can explain this conflict you are referring to about the design principleas of Primaluna againt the design principles of Naim CD5i / Apollo later over the weekend if you find sometime.
I see that you are recommending Era 8 inch subs over RELS. But considering my integ amp (primaluna), I will not have any subwoofer outs separately. In case of RELS, I can not connect the full range signal through their speakon cables and that is what REL recomends to do for their subs. If I need to consider Era / Velo, I may not be in a position to do that.
I'm not trying to put words into Art's mouth, but I think he's alluding to what I'm about to say.
I haven't personally heard the PrimaLuna, I've read a bunch of reviews and have spoke to several people who own one when I was considering buying one so take this with a grain of salt...
Naim and Rega (among others) rely on PRaT as the main focus of their sound. Everything else is secondary. If the PRaT isn't correct, nothing else matters as this is what they believe true musicallity is all about. One of the easiest and most immediately audible differences is attack and decay times are quicker. The leading edges of music aren't blurred and exagerated, relatively speaking. Same for the end of the notes. To the proponents these shortened times can give the impression of a faster amplifier. To the opponents they can make music sound harsher and edgier. It depends on which presentation the listener prefers.
From my undrestanding, PrimaLuna places emphasis on what some people call "hifi attributes." Smoothness, lushness, liquidity, and so on. Naim and Rega don't believe these are what truly make music sound realistic. Companies like PrimaLuna don't think PRaT (as Naim and Rega use it) is what makes music more realistic.
With opposite approaches, the designs are fighting each other. Very rarely do they meet in the middle and complement each other. They usually make a mess out of the presentation.
Stu : Thanks for patiently explaining the differences between the two approaches towards music. You said..PrimaLuna places emphasis on Smoothness, lushness, liquidity, and so on. May be that is the reason why Art was recommending sim cdp.
Stu & Art: So are you guys saying if I take PRaT based CDPs and hook them upto details and smoothness /lushness oriented Primaluna, I might end up messing up the total outcome ? I was just intending to introduce pace & rhythm into the music and any so called perceived brightness from leading edges will be rounded off by the primaluna resulting in a system that has PRaT that is a little bit rolled off at the edges with lushness and smoothness still retained in the preso. Is this a chance i should take (or) should i just look for sim ?
Finally....Do you recommend tubed CDPs for the design philosophy of Primaluna ? If so, do you mind recommending some names in less than $900 range ?