Please keep in mind that I am in no way a professional reviewer. Please excuse any misused terms, or "canned" observations.
The Naim Ariva Loudspeaker
Firstly, the rest of my gear is Naim 102 Pre / Naim 180 Power / Beresford external DAC playing FLAC files in Foobar2000.
Cables are Naim's NACA5 speaker cable and SNAIC (between pre/power). Also using a Chord Crimson RCA-to-DIN I/C for the DAC.
The Ariva uses two 7" woofers, along with a ¾" Vifa sourced tweeter, all in separate sealed chambers. The cabinet itself is also a "sealed" design without any ports. They angled front is purported to reduce resonations within the speaker. As most Naim designed speakers, the Ariva has only one set of speaker terminals on the rear. No bi-wire or passive Bi-amp possibility. Which is fine by me. Also of note, the speaker's cable terminals are not your typical "5-way" style. These will only accept bananas, and are spaced to accommodate Naim's termination "plugs", which I have on both ends of the cable.
My first impression when unpacking the speakers was that the build quality is superior, and it has a gorgeous subtle matte finish to the real Cherry veneer. Something I think we should be able to expect from a $2800 (new) speaker. Sure it is the missing 20 coat, lacquered "piano" gloss finish, not that I was expecting one. Though, I must admit it feels, sounds, and looks like I spent A LOT more.
Weighing in at about 35 lbs a piece, they seem heavy for their size, which is reassuring as usual. To decouple this weight from the floor, the Ariva sits on a provided MDF plinth/base with only three points of contact between the speaker and plinth. The plinth then has the typical 4 speaker spikes on the bottom, one on each corner, to decouple the plinth from the floor. A nice feature is the ability to adjust the height of two of the corners of the plinth from the top using an Allen wrench inserted into a hole, in order to level the base.
When plinths have been leveled and speakers dropped on top, the look is very striking, and fits my eye well. Of course the grilles are removable and I found I preferred this look to the "dressed" appearance. The Ariva's above mentioned sloped front creates a nice modern, clean look. While at the same time, does not stray from "traditional" speaker design in so large a fashion as to put people off, or look gimmicky.
The sound.... Because this pair was a rarely used dealer demo, they are basically new. But since they have been demoed in-store periodically over the last 3 ½ years, I assumed they were somewhat broken in. In the last 20 hours of listening I have not heard much audible change, if any.
Upon listening to the first few tracks through the Ariva's, the very first thing that struck me was how clean and detailed the treble was. It was not harsh or overly bright in the least. It was simply crisp, clean, and lifelike. Compared to other speakers Ive owned and demoed, it sounded as if some filter had been removed from the music. It fully demonstrated the proverbial "lifting of the blanket", you read often in speaker reviews. The dynamics were in no way analytical but I would venture to say they are hyper-detailed. If a more rolled off treble suits you, this might not be the best fit for you.
The mid-range was a more "forward" than I am used to experiencing, but not in a negative fashion. Although this is most likely due to my previous Energy speakers in which the mids were extremely muffled and sounded as if they were originating from inside a tunnel. If you want a very warm, buttery, bloated mid-range that some prefer, this is not your speaker. The mids are very accurate and reflect exactly what the recording contains. I don't listen to much solo vocal music, but I can imagine the Ariva's would excel there. Horns for example, as found in combo jazz, sound very lifelike with a perfect, neutral timbre.
The bass is produced by two 7" woofers, of which only the middle is required to double duty in the mid-range region. The bottom woofer is relegated to pumping out only the very lows. I am not sure how the crossover is set, nor what kind of crossover the Ariva employs. But Naim states it is a 3-way speaker, although by description it appears to be like your typical 2 ½-way design. Perhaps the separate internal chambers makes it more of a 3-way design.
Regardless, down low in bass regions of the Ariva is where I have come to learn what is meant by, a "fast" speaker. The decay is lightning quick on bass notes. There is no residual echo, or boomy-ness of any kind, and is extremely tight. This is not for lack of bass presence, as it is ALL there. The specifications state that the Ariva goes down to 30hz. Although I do not have anything to actually test this, it seems to go as low as they suggest. By far, this is the most realistic bass response I have heard from a speaker of this size. I would liken the experience to that of using an extremely accurate stand-mount reference monitor with a separate subwoofer.
Some might describe the presentation as "bass heavy" but for the wide variety of genres and styles of music I enjoy, the Ariva adapts perfectly. It does not create bass where it isn't, nor does it sound as though someone has used equalization to increase lower frequencies. In my opinion, it simply plays what is there, and very well for that matter. I think those who would state there is too much bass, have never heard, or aren't accustomed to, a very balanced full range speaker. I have found that moving them further away from the wall decreases the bass somewhat. Currently I have them about 12" from the rear wall.
As a pair, the Arivas throw out an extremely wide soundstage. The sound extends well past the speaker laterally, and is very cohesive overall. Except in extreme "stereo" moments, you don't hear the individual units. I would describe it as a wall of sound. Although I am still playing with their placement, they seem to image fairly well, and the sweet spot is a little larger than I am used to. In so doing, they seem a little less finicky about placement than some other "high-end" speakers.
Musically speaking, they are of high-order. To all ears they present the music with both ease and high energy. Analogous to a high performance motorcycle or watching a top class athlete. While not fatiguing, they are very lively. Separation of instruments is where the Arivas really shine. I can "see" the music and how each instrument interrelates. While the Ariva may not be as synergistic as some speakers, this type of detail is my personal preference.
For example, I am now hearing very audible details in the recordings that were not present in the past. It is as if my entire music collection has been given a thorough cleaning. Mostly found in the areas of percussion, I am hearing more and more I never noticed in the past. Specifically, I was listening to a Steely Dan's Aja and discovered some maracas that have been shaking in the background ever since the track was laid in the 70s. With my previous speakers, these subtleties were simply lost in the mix. Now with this tremendous separation of instruments, these details do not go unnoticed.
The Arivas, at least in combination with Naim electronics, are the most revealing speaker I have heard. Bad recordings sound as such, and anything sub par upstream will make itself evident. Although I have not used a Naim CD player with them yet, I expect to reap huge rewards when I do. My Beresford DAC is my only source at this point, and when playing FLAC files from a PC, I am extremely pleased. The overall sound is destined to only get better as I improve the source. This revealing nature of Naim's speakers and electronics must be what drives the "source-first" philosophy common amongst Naim owners. Something I didn't understand until I heard the Arivas.
Lastly, there are only two slight shortcomings I have found with the Arivas in the context of my existing system. One of which is mentioned above. They are so revealing, they will dramatically expose any weak links. If you think Barry Diamente's Led Zeppelin masters make the Jimmy Page remaster unlistenable. The Ariva is going to exacerbate the gap. Is the recording mastered too loudly? The Ariva will show you exactly where it is clipping. Specifically speaking, they have made recordings like The White Stripes "Icky Thump" unbearable. Unless you like things distorted and digitally clipped. But trust that the recordings always contained these elements. It is just that other speakers, and perhaps electronics, mask these negative aspects. I have read in the past about problems with the engineering and mastering of this album, but I couldn't agree that I "heard" it. Now it is clearly evident. Personally speaking, this kind of accuracy is something I want. But some, especially those who perhaps listen to badly recorded music or MP3s etc, might find things sounding worse than before. A poor recording will not be made better in any fashion by them.
The other complaint is also very minor. The Arivas, and once again it could be the electronics as well, are a little "hissy". Although not audible from any further than a few feet, it is a little more than I like to hear. Perhaps it is the 90db efficiency, or the NACA5 cable. I will tweak a few things as I live with them to see what can be done there. Then again, I have always had very sensitive ears, and can hear speaker hums and high frequencies no one else seems to. Of course some degree of speaker hiss always exists with any gear, but I expected less than is there.
In conclusion, I am completely floored by the sound of my system. I have only heard this sophistication in kits 10 times the price. If there is a brand that fits my ear, it is Naim. And the typical knock on Naim speakers, as being harsh and clinical, couldn't be farther from the case with the Ariva. And for around $1300 to $1600 dollars second hand, they are surely a bang-for-buck product.
"Please keep in mind that I am in no way a professional reviewer."
That's probably the best 'non-professional' reveiw ever read. Very articulate.
I agree with you entirely on your views on this speaker. One belief I have is that when a speaker is this revealing, not only does it reveal the bad points of any recording, but it also reveals the good points. Speakers can't discriminate good from bad and only reproduce the bad aspects.
The revealing nature of them gives more weight to the garbage in = garbage philosophy. No component will fix a bad signal. Some gear will artifically mask it, which IMO makes it worse.
I'm glad you wrote a review of them. There aren't many if any reviews of them. Its a shame. Its an even bigger shame that Castle went out of business, and Naim hasn't found anyone to OEM the cabinets. Naim hasn't replaced them with any thing yet either.
I've been planning on writing a review of my Audio Physic Yara monitors, but I think I'm going to sound like an uneducated moron compared to this.
Truth be told, if I sell the whole lot off, I would go right to Naim. They do what I like, and the wryteups of the Ariva are just right for me. I always like what they do.
Would love to read a review of your Yara's Stu. Looks like as usual the forum is moving in a direction...right now we seem to be moving toward highly detailed and dynamic speakers. Love it man!
Wow, I wasn't expecting that kind of response. Thanks for reading it!
Since I have not heard the Ariva's with other electronics, I suppose some of what I heard and commented on is due to the Naim kit as well.
Stu, Regarding the lack of opacity in the Ariva/Naim. Absolutely, the revealing nature is equally applicable to both good and bad recordings/sources. For example, my collection of Hoffman, MFSL, Diament, recordings are so much better now... I have even been enjoying things like Jethro Tull, who I have not previously been overly enthusiastic about.
The tenet, that a good kit will make you enjoy music you haven't appreciated in the past, is somewhat true.
On the other hand, I have an old (256kbps) mp3 rip of Nina Simone, from the the Philips recordings Set, that i've had for years... Well I permanently deleted it last night. It is unlistenable. Same goes for a Willie Nelson set a friend gave me a while back.
ANYONE who thinks they cannot tell a V0 (or 320) Mp3 from a FLAC (or WAV) needs to come to my house.
Also, Stu, I would LOVE to read your review of the Yara's. You can add it to this thread, start your own, addend it to the 102/180 thread, or anything you choose.
You should never get rid of any of your music - you never know how you may come back to it, even if it is a 320kbps MP3. You just never know.
Now, about the Arivas. While they were available for sale, one of the big questions was always the one of grilles off or on, both for dealers and customers. There was much discussion about this.
Naim's view was that, as with all their speakers, they had voiced the Ariva for use with the grilles on. In the early days, most dealers disagreed and almost always took the grilles off. Over time, the number of dealers taking grilles off decreased dramatically.
I have a feeling that this was in part due to the Ariva's extended run-in time. The Ariva suffered in early days because dealers didn't get it, but also because the Ariva actually took a heapload of time longer than it had any right to expect before it really came on song. This was not unusual with Naim's bigger speakers (SBL, DBL which take months) but was unexpected of Arivas, especially since N-Sats - which use similar drive units - take all of a week to run in.
Once the Ariva is run in properly, its performance becomes far more cohesive. The bass which seems to trail a bit (by comparison to other Naim speakers, if not other speakers) engages with the midrange and starts to propel the music as it should.
In my opinion therefore, the slightly forward nature of mid and treble that you've found is ameliorated by the application of the grilles, as Naim designed them this way.
Now one of the concomitant benefits of putting the grilles on is in the timing. It's weird but it seems to me that once the grilles go on, the midrange and treble may recede a bit but the piece of music becomes more cohesive and naturally balanced. It's obviously not quite so clear, but this seems to bind the units together and makes you less aware of the individual drive units working at their tasks. To me, this is preferable since it adds to the emotional connection I get when playing the speakers.
On the subject of placement, this is obviously quite dependant on the room. If the room bass modes interact with the speakers easily, you need to pull them away from the wall. Naim designed the speakers as wall proximity speakers. That tightness in the bass you hear is due to the lack of a port. The sealed cabinet provides an acoustic suspension to the drive units which makes them easier to grip for the amp. Sealed operation is quite common with Naim. Only the Intro, Credo and Allae have been ported, and these ports aren't tuned in the usual way of using a tube, so even Naim's porting methods are different. The Ariva, with its 'shoes' and its single sealed cabinet, was meant to be a simplification of Naim's previous speakers. The result was that you had a speaker which lived happpily close to the wall but could be pulled away from it if necessary without losing the wall of sound it (and all Naim speakers) produce. Please remember they were also designed not to be toed in. All Naim speakers have very wide dispersion and benefit from a straight ahead (or very slight toe-in of 2 or 3 degrees) placement giving a very wide, if not particularly deep soundstage- and that wall of sound.
On the subject of hiss, the culprit is the amp. In fact if you wanted to be cruel, the real culprit is the preamp. the 102 was known to be a little bit on the bright side. Still a fine performer, it could take your head off when you weren't looking. The application of the NAPSC to drive the front end digital electronics of the preamp (the control bits) removes a layer of hash and makes the top end of the 102 that bit sweeter. This was usually our first recommendation for 102 owners and in fact we sold few 102s without the NAPSC.
Hmmm, it's unusual to mate Naim speakers with anything other than Naim electronics. that said, a speaker is just meant to do what a speaker is told by the electronics so I guess it's always worth checking out.
Then again, Classe is closely associated with B&W (B&W own Classe I believe). Since B&W's presentation differs greatly from Naim's speaker presentation, I'm not convinced this would be a great combination.
Firstly, I didn't FULLY delete those albums... But they are no longer on my listening drives. I back everything up to DVD that ends up on my hard drives. And I keep track of all of my music in a spreadsheet. On it, I note what DVD a particular album is backed up on, and then another column noting if it is DVD only.
I will certainly try the Arivas with the grille, as I have not yet. In fact it will stop me from staring at the darker finish on the areas not under the grille. My speakers are cherry...
My initial thought was that I liked the look of the naked speaker. But if the grille changes things, I definitely want to investigate.
Do you have other suggestions/information on them? There aren't many write-ups, reviews or history given on the Ariva, nor for Naim speakers generally.
Any other insights regarding the Ariva would be most welcomed.
Yes, definitely trying to find a used NAPSC, and will buy one as soon as I find one. In fact, I have been considering just buying a "new" black box NAPSC.
The only thing holding me back on that is the fact that I am looking to the desired end point of my kit.
Assuming I would like to get to the 252/SC/250 in the end, I am trying to avoid buying unneeded equipment.
But at $550, it is hardly an issue.... And maybe ill find myself with a 282/200 along the way, and could use the NAPSC there.
I know the 102/180 isn't the final solution in the Olive series. But I am pretty happy with it as my first kit.
I assume my next upgrades will take me into the black boxes. Most likely the Supernait.... i need a DAC.
But my eye is on a nice pair of seperates eventually... within 4 or 5 years. By then there will be an external Naim DAC.
In reality, I am looking for the following, in this order:
- NAPSC - Olive HC (that should help the 102????) - Used Naim CDP (probably CD5x, to get me juiced for black box upgrades), if not, a CDX might fit the bill for the time being.
In my review I stated that the speakers were most likely broken in, and I had not noticed much change in them.
Well, upon further listening over an additional 50 or so hours, the sound is actually improving.
It could be that the system is finally settling down and starting to harmonize. Perhaps the speakers DID in fact need some breaking in. Maybe it is all in my head.
In any case, it has improved to a fair degree in terms of speed and timing. Also, the tweeter has seemed to have backed off slightly.
The most substantial change is the imaging which was less than stellar previously. I was willing to sacrifice this aspect for others. You cant have it all for $2800 can you? It is now much more cohesive, while maintaining separation. It is as if every instrument and sound has found its proper place.
By the way, pop music sounds incredible on my kit. I am not really into pop music in general, but as a product of the 1980s, I can always enjoy a little MJ or even some Toto. Say, say, say anyone???
It is true that great hifi will make you like music you previously haven't.
I haven't heard Thriller on vinyl since I was in 3rd grade.
But I can say that the Japanese pressing (Denon i think) with Pre-emphasis is truly amazing and much better than either the standard or "delux" releases.
That's interesting Patrick. I've noticed that even when a system is run in it can take time for the components to reach some sort of equilibrium when connected differently or in a different place. Your confirming that I think...or as you said it could need some more running in...or both.
Or it could simply be that you're tuning in to what the system is doing more readily. There's little doubt in my mind that a substantial change in presentation often needs a longer familiarisation before all the depth and nuance of the new presentation can be fully appreciated.
Patrick, the 82 and 282 both come with the NAPSC in the box.
Yes, a Hicap is a substantial improvement, as you'd expect. However, the standard thing is no mean performer. You're often better off looking at the source.
I wouldn't count on Naim coming out with a standalone DAC. They might come out with a streamer, but they might not. And whatever they do come out with will be more expensive than most people would be prepared to consider. It's one consequence of the almost handmade manufacturing techniques they use. I dread to think what'll happen when they decide to really bring themselves into the 21st Century.
FWIW, I think you should just sit back, relax and enjoy for a while...
Nice review. Recognize you from the Naim forum and always appreciate your posts. I am about to buy a used pair of arivas (one year) for about $1400 so I am excited. I now have a pair of Audio Physic Yara, and they seem pretty similar in specs. I am hoping, since I have an all naim system (82/250/CDX/XPS) that it will be an upgrade. Has anyone compared the yara to the ariva?
Thanks again Patrick and keep posting. Even though things get a little snarky over on the naim forum, I appreciate your ability to stay on topic and not get too offended by what seems to be cultural differences in communicating opinions, if you get my meaning.
Regarding the Yara's... Stu just bought a pair and reviewed them here. You should read his review as well.
It would be very interesting to hear your reflections on the comparison.
And yes, some of the individuals on the Naim forum are quite intense. But mostly people are very smart and quite funny.
By the way, the Arivas continue to amaze. I just returned from a trip last night, and was in need of some music. I was listening to a Cobra performance by John Zorn, when I almost spilled my beer, and poo'd my pants.
There was this percussive sound off to the right, that played with amazing brute force and attack. And it came from behind. It actually scared me. I twisted my neck instantly to see what was coming up from behind...
Of course no one was there, save the music filling the room. The sound, a combination of a rim-shot, snare image, with a bass kick.
Ive never had music scare me before. Albeit it was a dark and brooding passage with extreme dynamics. And given the live recording, it made me feel as though I was in attendance.
Creepy. I kept looking over my shoulder all night thinking someone was standing there.
After, I moved on to Secret Chiefs 3, and it happened again with a strange twang of one of Trey Spruance's many interesting instruments. A tar perhaps.
The music was bull-dogging me.
So in the end I went with some Jim Croce and happily passed out on the couch with my beer in hand.
MAKE SURE YOU INSURE THE SPEAKRES IF YOU ARE HAVING THEM SHIPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If at all possible, also buy from a dealer.
When I received my pair. One of the speakers had a "loose" crossover inside. That came unattached during shipment. This required sending to NANA for fixing. Of course becaus eit was through a dealer I purchased them, as well as insuring the shipment, it did not cost me a penny.
BUT!!! It was mentioned by Naim that the Arivas had this problem when shipping long distances.
When they shipped the repaire speaker back to me they strapped it to a pallet to stabilize it.
Lastly, It your shipper does palletize it, make sure the back of the speaker faces down. Not to the side as the Naim box is oriented. This should keep the crossover stable.
But really, buy from a dealer. I cannot imagine what this would have cost me if I had not.
Wow, now I am really nervous. I am buying from a guy who seems to be very reputable and has made inquiries to his dealer friend who suggested double boxing, i.e. sending via insured fedex, with a second box around the original naim box, with padding. He also talked about pallet and freight solution, but did not reccommend as insurance may be an issue with sending freight. They have to be sent from Massachusetts to California....
Do think I am foolish to try this? I have not seen arivas at this price anywhere near me before, so i would like to jump on them, but I will survive if I dont.
By the way, I did read that yara review, but the review was for a different model than the ones i own. The diffference I can tell on paper between the ariva and the yara is another 10hz of low frequency , and a ported woofer on the yara.
I hope the ariva are enough better to justify the risk of getting them to me!
Let us know your results. Very interested. Arivas are floorstanders, but they like to be fairly close to the rear wall. Pull them out about 6 - 8 inches only. And they don't weant to be toed in. Start with them almost square to the room and only toe in very slightly if at all. Once you find the right location (having played music on them), make sure you level their shoes and stop them from rocking.
Thanks for the info Frank. I have made the plunge, and although I don't think I can come close to the depth of Patrick's original review, I will do my best to compare my Yaras (2002) to the new-ish Arivas when they arrive-a.
As for placement, I have an odd set up where we have a fireplace (mostly unused) is central to the living/listening space. The fireplace has a large raised stone hearth that is about 18 in. deep x 18 in high. So I can place the speakers on the hearth, at about 6 - 8 in. from the wall, or place them on the carpeted floor, in front of the hearth and more widely spaced, but probably a full 2 ft. from the wall. I will see what happens but it is not really an optimal set up for audio. I don't generally keep my speakers up on the hearth, only when I need them out of the way -(wife factor.) I will just have to test things out to see how it all sounds.
I was on St Louis all week for the athletic trainers convention, and just followed up with this thread.
John, There are a few different Yaras - Evolution bookshelf (which I have), Evolution tower, Yara Classic, and Yara Superior (Classic and Superior are towers). To confuse the issue even more, they've recently updated the entire line with new drivers. Simply comparing the Yara with the Ariva is impossible.
The most obvious differences between mine (Evolution bookshelf) and the Ariva is bass and imaging/soundstage. The Ariva has stronger, lower, and tighter bass. This is to be expected though. The Ariva gives Naim's signature "Wall of Sound" whereas the Yaras are far more 3 dimentional and bigger, so to speak. If the comparison is the Yara Evolution tower vs the Ariva with a Naim system, I'd take the Arivas. I haven't heard the higher end Yaras to give any insight. I also haven't heard the Yara and Ariva side by side for a true A/B comparison.
IMO, at $1400 and owning a full Naim system, the Ariva is a no-brainer if a speaker change is needed. Then again even some hard-core Naim guys don't like Naim's speakers, so there's no guarantee that you'll like them. I'm pretty confident that the Yara should fit very well into a Naim system though.
Stu - and Art - thanks. I understand your message Stu - I think Art got confused by your last sentence, although he is correct that I have Yaras, and I think you understand that as well. So my yaras, as Art points out, are 2002 (approx) and they are floorstanders, and they sound great.
My exploration started when I heard a pair of Wilson Sophias at my friendly neighborhood dealers. I thought "I need to get me some of that!" After looking at my bank account I had a little reality check (it bounced) and resigned myself a more modest journey of discovery. I had always felt like I was trying a little too hard to listen/enjoy the Yaras. To my ears they just seem to lack a little in the lower frequency and lack a little organization in the soundstage. I am sure it is not all their fault, and I am not exactly in NEED of a speaker change, but just exploring and having a great time doing it. I am hoping I will be pleased, even though the upgrade is small-ish - not taking anything away from the Yaras, which I have been pleased with, but I just come away feeling like I needed more.
I was looking at lots of different s/h speakers and my constraints were 1)greater freq. range 2) cost 3)wife factor i.e. something that looked enough like the yaras that either she wouldnt notice or would approve outright 4)size 5)something that would mesh with my all naim system. Seems pretty obvious where I went with it, I guess. Arivas seem to be a good choice given these parameters.
Stay tuned! And thanks for all your comments - and to Patrick for getting it going.
John
PS my friend was at the St Louis trainers convention - said it was just this side of a bacchanal...
I had to look up the definition of bacchanal - "A drunken or riotous celebration." That describes every NATA convention. This one was pretty good, but for some reason the convention is always the most fun when its in Baltimore. Its a city that seems like it was designed for a huge party. It was supposed to be in New Orleans the year Katrina hit, but was moved for obvious reasons. I'm pretty sure that would have been the best one. Someone told me they had the convention in Las Vegas about 15 years ago. Everyone went, but no one showed up to the convention itself. I wonder why? But I digress...
You really can't go wrong with the Arivas. If they're not for you, you can most likely sell them for at least what you paid for them.
Sorry for the hiatus, a review/comparison is coming. Take it as a good sign that I have not taken the time to write anything. I am too busy taking every spare moment to convene with my new Arivas!
It seems to get better and better every day. I assume this is the process of my ears retraining themselves to hear music like they never have before.
Every moment I have an opportunity, I am enjoying them.
I finally realized what makes Naim so special, and decidedly different than anything else Ive heard.
The Naim sound = live sound.
They are the only, in my experience, to truly replay the music as it sounds in person. With extreme transparency, bucket loads of timing, and incredible speed.
I will liken the Arivas, as well as the Naim electronics, again to a highly tuned Triumph Speed Triple.
So much fun, yet blistering performance. Not uncomfortable, but raw and powerful. Not fatiguing and still exciting.
4)size 5)something that would mesh with my all naim system. Seems pretty obvious where I went with it, I guess. Arivas seem to be a good choice given these parameters. 