I need some advice. I have 2 Klipsch floor speakers, and a 10 inch Paradigm sub (DSP 3100). I am looking into getting the next step in my system. I am thinking either a Klipsch Center speaker (RC62) or 2 rears (paradigm mini mons if they mix well with klipsch, or 2 klipsch rears). Is one of these options better than the other when buying your system in modules?
I am probably listening to music 70-80% of the time. From my research, the center would be the obvious choice if I was more movie oriented. Would the two rears make more sense for me? Also, would the sound of two Klipsch RF 10 fronts mix well with the Para mini mons?
I will eventually have 5.1 or 6.1, but I will probably stay on this stage (3.1 or 4.1) for a while, until the money is in order.
Are you looking to make music sound better, or make movies sound better?
If your priority is 70-80% music as you stated, I'd keep it as simple as possible. The same amount of money will get you far more in a 2 channel system than it would in a full surround system. For music, a dedicated 2 channel stereo is pretty much impossible to beat, dollar for dollar. Rather than paying for decoding, extra speakers, extra wires, etc., you're so much better off keeping it as simple as possible with 2 solid speakers, an integrated amp or seperates, and a high quality CD player.
If you watch a lot of movies with a lot of special effects and sound effects, 2 channels won't ever be able to do what a full surround system will do. If you're watching dramas, comedies, sports, sit coms, etc., you may not miss anything if you have a good 2 channel system connected.
When I first started out, I thought I wanted a surround system. A good salesman helped me realize that it would be a waste of my time. None of the stuff I watch has much if any use for the extra channels.
If you still want the surround system, you should keep all the speakers within the same brand and line. The speakers will perfectly match all the way around. The center channel is probably the single most important speaker, and as such should be given the most consideration. The surrounds are probably the least important, but that doesn't mean that anything will do.
The sub doesn't need to match the rest of the system.
The thing is, I currently have a 2.1 system, with Klipsch RF 10 fronts, Paradigm DSP3100 sub, and a Yamaha Rx V459 Receiver. I've been building it modularly as I get some money. For music, I have some normal DVD player, and I have my laptop hooked up through optical Toslink. I remote connect through my desktop to listen to my flac collection (11,000 songs).
Hence why I was going for the whole set of it. If I wanted a dedicated music 2.1 system, i'd have to wait YEARS to get enough money for a huge fair of floor fronts ($2k +). The guy at the hi fi store said a lot of what you said about keeping it the same brand and the center being the most important. I just wasn't sure which is better to get first, center, or 2 rears. I wouldn't mind having the 5.1 system to begin with. Any more advice for my situation?
I have about a hundred dvd's bought, plus I stream a lot of movies from my computer. What would my next step be for the 2.1 system then? I just bought my Klipsch a few months ago.
Normally I would suggest a dedicated CD player for your music but it appears that your 11,000 songs on your desktop is your primary audio source. With that I would suggest an upgraded DAC for your computer (though that might not be fair since I do not know what DAC you employ today).
If Christopher Malloy or Nuck come along they have some ideas for a DAC.
Go out and listen to some seperates, a pre-amp and amp, to see how much improvement you can hear over your Yamaha.
However, before you spend any more money on gear, place "WASP" or "speaker placement" in a web search engine and work on getting your speaker placement as good as you can.
Spend some time researching room treatments and acoustics. There are things that can be done fairly cheaply.
Once you have a better sense of what you can get with your existing set up you will be in a better position to know for yourself what your next step should be.
FWIW, John Ashman might be along to encourage you to upgrade your speakers.
It would be quite easy to convince me if I had the money :D I currently just have a Creative Soundblaster 24 bit external s/C lol. It's cheap as hell, but it sounds decent, and it gets music to my speakers lol. I just don't really want to go out and get a bunch of stuff that will replace all the stuff I just bought. I just wanted to add to the system, hence my going towards 3.1 or 4.1. It may have been the wrong way to proceed, looking back, but I do not have a big enough budget for some HUGE 2.1 speakers. I can't really buy a DAC in town anywhere either :S
Also, I do own about 250 cd's, I just have pretty different tastes, so I don't tend to put on one album now a days unfortunately.
Just a thought, why do you feel the need to have "HUGE" front speakers???
There are hundereds of wonderful "reference monitors" out there. Many of which better anything in a floorstander.
Since you already have a subwoofer, a nice pair of standmounts might be perfect.
In any event, you have your Klipsch and plan on using them it sounds. But when the upgrade itch occurs, do not shy away from a good standmount speaker.
SOOOO, to answer your specific question, without reservation I suggest you get a center, not surrounds. If Klipsch has a center that "matches" your existing fronts, even better.
As said above, the center is the MOST IMPORTANT speaker for any multichannel set-up. All dialog is sent to the center, and creates a connection between the screen, and the audio. If watching movies in a 2 channel system, the dialog is heard from the front speaker positions only, rather than the from the TV area, and it sounds disjointed.
Even if your source is 2 channel, and you use Dolby Pro-Logic to "create" the 5.1 environment, it will still send all of the dialog to the center speaker.
The surrounds are of little importance except for the crazy sound effects found on your average Hollywood action movie.
Otherwise, you will most likely find the front 3 speakers do 95% of the work.
Sure Master and Commander will use the surrounds in the battle scenes. But in normal TV/Movie/Sports applications, you wont notice the surrounds.
In fact, the only time I specifically "hear" the surrounds, is during a baseball game. Some of the crowd noise in sent to surrounds and sometimes it is audible over everything else.
So get a decent center speaker and ENJOY!!! Add surrounds when funds permit.
Also keep in mind that getting surrounds involves more expenses than the speakers themselves. You will need two long runs of decent speaker cable. Plus you will most likely require some wall-mounts for the speakers.
Lastly, whether you go with a center, or surrounds, make sure to set up your receiver correctly so it knows you dont have a center, or surrounds.
If you are listening to a 5.1 Dolby Digital movie/show, and your receiver thinks you have speakers that you do not, you will not hear everything that is there.
And in the case of the center speaker, you would basically hear no dialog.
If you tell your receiver you do not have surrounds, it will route the audio from the surrounds to the fronts. So you dont miss any of the sound.
Thanks for all the excellent replies. I'm sure the upgrade itch will come someday, and I will definately look into a better 2.1 system, but for now I am going with a center or rears. One last question was, if I do listen to music more than movies, would the rears be a better fit for the time being (between the time I get the money for the center and now). Just doing 2 channel sound (front and rear L, and front and rear R) is a moderate upgrade is it not? I am just looking at the fact that the center probably won't do a ton in a 3.1 setup if i ever put music on will it?
Also. I was either going with the Klipsch RC 62 for a center, or Klipsch RB61 vs Paradigm Mini Monitors. I auditioned them once and the para's seemed to be extremely crisp. I was just wondering if it would be worthwhile mixing paras with the 2 front klipsch. I have a big 10" para sub, and I was kind of thinking that the mini monitors might make a good balance between the Klipsch RF 10 fronts.
"If watching movies in a 2 channel system, the dialog is heard from the front speaker positions only, rather than the from the TV area, and it sounds disjointed."
Not if you have the front speakers set up properly. When watching TV with my stereo hooked up, sounds come from exactly where they sould come from. words come from people's lips, etc. Most people who don't know much about it assume I have the TVs speakers on or a center channel hidden away. Neither is true.
Soory for the sidebar, Kirk. If I was in your shoes, I'd get the best center speaker I could afford. It's the hardest working and most noticable speaker in a surround system. On average, the surrounds don't work a 10th as much work as the center. Those aren't scientific numbers, but they're close enough.
The Paradigms could work as surrounds, but you're probably better off getting the matching Klipschs. They'll be more seemless, and I don't think there's a huge price difference.
Also keep in mind, Klipsch speakers get bashed around here pretty often. The RF series is pretty good IMO.
I love them. I would agree they can be a bit fatiguing if they are cranked. But they are so crisp and they have tons of punch for electronic, rock, etc. The symbols, and drum work sound amazing for jazz stuff too. Obviously i'm not into the upper levels of gear due to money restrictions, but this is a pretty big step for me soundwise.
One last question was, if I do listen to music more than movies, would the rears be a better fit for the time being (between the time I get the money for the center and now). Just doing 2 channel sound (front and rear L, and front and rear R) is a moderate upgrade is it not?
It is not. Stereo music is best reproduced with two speakers. You won't improve it by doubling them. When stereo works well, the speakers seem to disappear from the room and voices and instruments apprear to come from various identifiable spots. Having speakers playing the same material behind you will destroy this effect.
I don't see a huge downside by using Paradigm Mini Monitors as surround speakers if they fit the room better (or cost less). They won't exactly voice-match the front Klipsch, but it may not be so noticeable. But having a paradigm brand sub doesn't make a difference in that decision, apart from matching the looks.}
Ideally, if you are listenning to plain CDs or plain stereo music, nothing. You need nothing more than your two RF-10 for that.
Adding speakers is good for HT, music DVDs and multi-channel music formats (such as SACD and DVD-Audio). For that, if seating alone, you might get more bang for the buck by adding surround speakers. If anyone is seated off-center, then you'd get more bang by adding a center speaker first. Then you'll be amazed at much much sounds comes out of it during movies.
If you are watching 5.1-encoded Dolby Digital DVDs in anything less than 5 speakers and a sub, you are compromising the dynamic range of the sound you hear dramatically using most common receivers. In that case, the equivalent of "midnight-mode" is automatically enabled.
Some receivers have a music surround mode. I'm not sure exactly which speakers get which sounds, or if any get any distinct sounds. In 2 channel mode, the only speakers playing anything would be the two front speakers (and sub if attached and turned on).
Hm Well I am in quite a shitty spot lol. My desire for more seems to stop here I guess. Brand new fronts after a few months doesn't make sense, and apparently 2 new rears or a mid doesn't help me either (music wise).
Yeah perhaps I don't need to rush into spending lol. Any recommendations then for further down the line? Is it basically an upgrade in speakers? Beyond room placement etc. I have a Yamaha RxV459 receiver which has been excellent so far. What would the process be from here on out?
The room is the most important thing. It could yeild tremendous results without costing a dime. I'd exhaust that possibility first.
A new receiver and/or DAC should improve your music. A good thing about your speakers is they're very easy to drive, so your options in a receiver are wide open.
If you're after improvements in music, look into some receivers made by companies like Arcam, Rotel, NAD, and B&K. They'll all sound different and pair up differently with your speakers. They all have built in DACs that could improve your sound quality.
I'm not the biggest fan of Yamaha, especially paired up with Klipsch. Others may like it though. I'd lean toward the Arcam and B&K side with your speakers, but that's just me.
From the looks of it there is a shop an hour away from me with the following brands for receivers etc.
NAD Marantz Musical Fidelity Anthem Goldring Boston Acoustics Radios Denon Pioneer Elite SpeakerCraft Arcam Bryston Nexus
and the following speakers
Paradigm Monitor Audio SpeakerCraft Totem
Would I be better to begin looking into different speakers and a receiver? Also I really like the idea of the built in DAC for a receiver, especially since I run so many digital music files. I suppose I could look into one of those sorts of receivers, then add different floors/bookshelves down the road?
Another note. Where would I hear differences in stepping up from the Klipsch RF10, or really any speakers along these lines. I guess it's mostly the lack of me hearing something beyond this (not available in my small town). What would the DAC aspect add? Totem speakers (as an example). I'm still learning a lot lol.
I have in the past simply used my 2 channel speakers for DVD and TV viewing. Although when properly setup and imaging well, yes the sound should be centered on the screen.
But this begs many questions. Are the fronts placed equally far from the screen? Are there ANY other seating positions outside of the sweet spot?
When I did only have two fronts for my HT system, if I wasn't sitting directly in the middle, I could specifically hear an individual speaker, and the dialog was certainly not centered. In fact it is exactly the reason I pursued a 5.1 set-up.
Although in retrospect, and hence my suggestion to add a center speaker rather than surrounds, I would probably be plenty satisfied with a 3.1 system.
This is most likely due to the fact that i dont watch hollywood action movies. If i did, then a 7.1 set-up would most likely be to my liking.
Lastly, just like Kirk, my emphasis has always been on 2 channel. And I have never been able to reconcile the two applications in one system.
The closest I ever got was to use my HT receiver as a pre only for 2 channel listening. Then I had an Adcom going from the pre-outs to my fronts.
After realizing that the Yamaha receiver was not the "cleanest" preamp section for 2 channel, yet it excelled for my HT needs. I decided to have separate systems.
The only thing that stood in the way was the fact that i didnt want two sets of front speakers. So I picked up a couple of wall mounts for the fronts of the 5.1 and dedicated my floorstanders to 2 channel.
My last advise to Kirk is to stop and think about what you ideally want the system to be like in the end. That will help put you on the correct path. Also it will keep you from buying anything that is only a a stop-gap measure along the way.
If your end goal is a great 5.1 system that also excels at 2 channel. Unfortunately, you'll end up needing to spend alot of money on the entire system. You will want a nice pre, good power, and of course sufficient fronts.
Perhaps your ultimate goal is a great 2 channel system with the ability to do 5.1, while still using the same set of fronts. Then you could get a good 2 channel preamp/amp (or integrated) with an "AV passthrough" feature. This would allow for the nice 2 Channel to always be used for music, and a less expensive processor and multichannel amp for the center and surrounds.
Of course this all presupposes that you want it all in the same room, as I do.
All excellent points, Patrick. In regargds to being out of the sweet spot, this happens with music as well. When sitting too far on one side, the music starts to come from the speaker rather than the middle. This can be somewhat adjusted with a balance control. Using the TV's speakers can remedy this too, but other problems can arise from that.
No matter how good and/or expensive a 2 channel system is, it can't replicate everything a surround system will do. But a lot of people don't need the extra channels.
Kirk,
The DAC is probably going to give you the most immediately noticable benefit at this point, provided that you're using uncompressed music. Garbage in = garbage out. No receiver or speakers will fix a bad signal. The best they can do is amplify what they're given.
You've listed some very good stuff. Some are better than others and some are a better value than others. You can't go wrong listening to as much stuff as you reasonably can. Forget about our desciptions of stuff and hear them for yourself. Our ears, tastse, and wallets are all different. Of the stuff you listed, I'd go with Bryston and Totem. What should that mean to you? Absolutely nothing. You don't know my room, music, budget, etc.
Nothing you listed in there is junk that's not worth having. If you're contemplating getting rid of your speakers (not that I think you should or shouldn't), ask them about trading them in, and/or trading in any other gear that you'll replace. If going this route, listen to complete systems. You'll be able to tell which combination sounds right to you, and what doesn't. Don't take our or the dealer's word for it, take your word for it.
A surround receiver can sound very good for music, you just need to be careful when chosing one. Evaluate it using music in stereo mode with a CD player connected to the internal DAC, since you'll be using the receiver's DAC.
