OH yeah.
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2735 Registered: May-05 | Get your facts straight. I've never once said that no one would prefer the M3 over the B60 or vice versa. I'm no more superior than anyone else here. But, I'm no more inferior either. I don't care what opinion John has. My issue is when he states something is better - not 'sounds better to my ears.' If that was the case, very few people here would be arguing. He accuses everyone else of not having an open mind, yet he's the most closed minded person here. Everything we hear is imaginary, yet everything he hears is scientific fact. Somehow, he's the victim. Somehow, every arguement follows him. It's everyone else, not him. As far as listening to my gear instead of writing about it - Most of my posts are when I'm at work. Is it also inconceivable that I could be typing while I listen? Why do you post here instead of listening to your gear? Why does anyone? You're one of his biggest supporters. Have you DBT'ed your gear against anything else? Are you sure you're not just imagining any of the qualities that sold you on your gear over its competition? |
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Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 87 Registered: Jul-05 | What do you care what opinion John has? True, We need to let Johnny fantasize about his audio knowledge, his opinion and "experience" lack validation anyway, no more proof is needed about how much he lies and contradicts himself. Let him be; after all he doesn't really hurt the world being the way he is right? Let's watch some Stanley cup finals! |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 347 Registered: Apr-08 | I do believe someone was going on as to how Bryston is better because it's 'better built' and 'measures better' and I simply pointed out that if that's true, then NAD is "better" at the price points they actually compete. And, as I said, DBTs aren't all that useful for determining which gear is better but it's REALLY useful for showing people that most of the differences are exaggerated or non-existent. You don't need a DBT to tell you you like the the sound of something, but if you think you can make big assertions of sound differences, having taken 5 minutes or more to swap out a piece of gear, you definitely need a DBT just to show you how hard that really is when imagination is taken out of the equation. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 88 Registered: Jul-05 | see! my point exactly.  |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1564 Registered: Jun-07 | "It is conceivable that many would prefer the M3 over a bryston integrated" Of course it is. No doubt that there are people out there that A/B'd an M3 vs a B100 and chose the M3. No doubt that a lot of people also chose the B100. Its all preference to that person, on what they HEAR, not what they read on a piece of paper. Specs and Measurements do not mean $#IT!! when it comes so what someone hears in a certain brand. Thats why this DBT test crap is complete Bull$#it. Say the M3 measures better(still not sure how) than that of the B100. Or say they even measure the exact same. They still don't sounds anything a like at all. And it is not my brain, or the sales guy making me believe that. When I first auditioned the M3 against the Bryston, I was totally gun Ho on wanting, and thinking the M3 was going to sound better. It just didn't, that was just my personal preference. Now put them behind a closed door, and I could easily tell which one was which, based on two totally different qualities of sound. Is one BETTER? to ME, the Bryston is, to another, perhaps the M3. Put JA in the same DBT, and I bet he will be blown away that he can clearly hear a difference. He may prefer the M3, and thats fine. Measurements,specs, and DBT tests do not mean diddly squat when it comes to this Hobby. Its all preference, and of course when someone prefers something, to them, it is Better. Thats just how we think. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 349 Registered: Apr-08 | Nick, more powerful, lower distortion, better square wave performance, marginally more extended, lower noise and it weighs about 20 lbs more. Nick, I also bet that I could take a person who doesn't know I'm doing it, put on an M3, then wait 1 minute, tell them I jut put on the Bryston and they will say, having heard about it on the internet, that the 'Bryston' is punchier and more detailed, even though it's really just the same amp. John Dunlavy loved doing that kind of thing to people and it worked on them. A little suggestion goes a long way. I still think I could trip you up really easily in a DBT. The only 'flaw' in a DBT is that it shows people how limited their hearing is (or how good amps have gotten) and people don't like that. They feel good about themselves thinking they have such good hearing they can tell the difference all the time. I suppose I shouldn't try to spoil that illusion, but it's annoying seeing people with big imaginations scapegoat a good company just because they have low prices. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1565 Registered: Jun-07 | I am not scapegoating NAD. I like NAD, but I am just stating that the two amps do sound quit a bit different. To me, they do. A guestion, you said you had owned, or had a B60 for a while that you traded in for home theater. Did it not sound different in ANY way at all, to that of you M3? Just curious. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1191 Registered: Apr-06 | "I still think I could trip you up really easily in a DBT." The tester can't trip anyone up in a DBT because he is as ignorant as the testee when it comes to what is being tested. I learned that one in psychology. "Marketing by itself is a conspiracy - manipulating the customer into thinking he "needs" your product." I'm curious where you took marketing... Marketing as I learned it has nothing to do with manipulating customers, and everything to do with creating lasting, mutually beneficial relationships. Step one of doing this is creating a product to meet an *actual* need or want of a customer. That isn't to say there aren't slimeballs that advertise garbage to unsuspecting dolts, but that is hardly the definition of good marketing from an academic standpoint. "I do believe someone was going on as to how Bryston is better because it's 'better built'" Performance aside, I'd say Bryston's warranty is pretty good validation of superior build quality. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1309 Registered: May-06 | "I also bet that I could take a person who doesn't know I'm doing it, put on an M3, then wait 1 minute, tell them I jut put on the Bryston and they will say, having heard about it on the internet, that the 'Bryston' is punchier and more detailed, even though it's really just the same amp." How is that a DBT? "I still think I could trip you up really easily in a DBT" How can anyone be "tripped up" in a DBT? I thought the concept was to listen to "A" versus" "B" not knowing which gear is "A" is or which gear is "B", and not knowing when "A" is playing or "B" is playing. For someone who lives and dies by DBT ... |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 350 Registered: Apr-08 | To be honest, it was several years before having the M3 and I don't make judgments based on more than a few moments of time difference, at least not with electronics. I can't even remember any specific impressions, to be honest, I'm just saying it didn't make me 'need' it. Stu, I think, was saying about how warm and rich McIntosh was and how that was a good, but different thing, compared to maybe a Bryston or Krell or whatever the other brand was. That's all this is, IMO. I don't know whether Bryston and NAD set out to have different flavors and achieve it or if it's just accident or whatever, but I love what i feel to be NAD's lack of sound. And sometimes I listen to an older, brighter, maybe even harsher NAD that sounds really 'punchy' and I like that too. I like, but don't get desperate for, what Byston and other companies do. I have an absolutely lush, tuby sounding Audio Innovations amp that is anything but punchy and dynamic. Smooth, warm, rich, and that's great too. For a long time, we sold Parasound with its brighter, more dynamic sound and B&K with its warmer lusher, sound and people who I thought might like Parasound fell in love with B&K and vice versa. So I learned to just, at best, express some differences i heard if asked, but basically just let people decide what they liked themselves. NAD has a nice middle ground between the two and they're easier to deal with and have more of the products we need. And people like them and seek them out. I've never said anything bad about Bryston when people ask, even compliment them on their sane, sober approach to design, but I am able to compete with them extremely well. The Masters Series is everything i want in a high-end component and a bag of chips. And others who take it home agree. The only people that seem to disagree are the ones that won't take it home for an honest spin. They didn't get the kind of measurements they achieved by accident. I just think people should be more fair in their judgments of products and brands and certainly shouldn't make the kind of sweeping generalizations I've seen here. Kinda like when i sold the Regas - I didn't like the original Planet, but many of my customers loved it. I did like the Planet 2000, but then, to me, it just sounded more like the C541. But I let people buy whatever they wanted and I took their comments to heart after running it through a bias filter. For instance, some people say a speaker is harsh and sucks. Some people say 'too detailed'. Some people say 'dynamic and punchy'. I know how to boil that down to something useful. If someone says 'smooth, rich, non fatiguing' and someone else says 'like a blanket thrown over the speakers', I can boil that down to something useful. No amplifier aside from some tubes, maybe, or a broken one truly sounds like a blanket was thrown over the speakers. Of course, the NAD does have features such as tilt control that could cause that if someone chose to engage it. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 351 Registered: Apr-08 | Well, I'm saying the DBT could trip someone up. Certainly an SBT can trip up people in pretty much any which way someone wants. Besides, just because I set up the conditions doesn't mean I'd be flipping the switch. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 350 Registered: Mar-04 | "Get your facts straight". I know this for a fact Stu, this is just a hobby. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2736 Registered: May-05 | So now that DBTs aren't that important in determining what is better, what is? A spec sheet that detials measurements into some unrealistic load? Looking at the specs of the M3 vs B100, it does seem the M3 measures better in some ways. But it doesn't appear to measure better than the B60. You have yet to substantiate that claim. The only spec that may appear better for the M3 is the distortion specs. But keep in mind that they weren't measured using the same parameters, hence differences will be found. Because the spec sheets use unrealistic loads, they're not as reliable as the manufacturers will lead you to believe. If the spec sheets are somewhat misleading, and DBTs aren't all that useful as yoy claim, what's left? Actually listening to music, and A/B'ing the equipment. Until you've done that, you can't argue what you'll truly prefer. You can't say for certain that you prefer the M3 over the B60, B100, et al. until you've heard them side by side. Until you have, your preferences are purely hypothetical and theoretical with no solid proof. Also, why did you buy an M3 over the 372 at more than 2x the cost? You did you buy it over a 325BEE at about $2k more? It certainly can't compete with a 325BEE from a price/performance standpoint. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 352 Registered: Apr-08 | Marketing is about creating lasting relationships beneficial to the company, not *necessarily* 'mutually beneficial'. If the sale is made and the customer thinks they're happy, then it has worked. Most of high-end is pure marketing that is has little to no benefit to the consumer, but if the customer *believes* it does, well, 'perception = reality'. Marketing is about perception. I took my classes at Penn State and my profs weren't exactly pro consumer. In fact, one prof said 'anyone hear think they're honest? Drop the class, this isn't the class for you'. I certainly felt I was honest, but I wanted to learn and learn I did. Now I see right through the manipulation. Everyone should take these classes, so they're on the same level as those trying to manipulate them. I've never heard anyone define marketing as trying to create mutually beneficial relationships before. I didn't know Marx taught marketing |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1192 Registered: Apr-06 | "Marketing is about creating lasting relationships beneficial to the company, not *necessarily* 'mutually beneficial'." If it wasn't mutually beneficial, it wouldn't be a *lasting* relationship. "Most of high-end is pure marketing that is has little to no benefit to the consumer" There is a difference between good marketing and good advertising. I'm surprised that hasn't been beaten into your head by professors. Then again, I went to college in California. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 353 Registered: Apr-08 | Stu, if you take a DBT, you'll realize that these things are so close, there's no clear 'winner', just slight differences. At least with the good stuff. I haven't seen the B60s measurements done by the same place, but I assume the B100 is better than a B60 in most ways. But I could be wrong to assume that. Certainly the M3 has 3x the power which counts for something. Now, if 8/10 people hear that one unit is 'better', that is significant, but I haven't heard of such a blow out. Even an SBT with everyone in the same room someone pointed out had relatively inconclusive results with relatively poor measuring digital amps. I didn't say I prefer the M3 over the Bryston. Just that it's everything I've, thus far, wanted in a high-end amp. And your preference for your Bryston are purely anecdotal, unscientific and almost certainly tainted by bias, whether you like it or not. Why do i have an M3? It's my demo piece. I have an NAD T765 for theater and NHT Xds for stereo using Sonos as the music source. If it were my money, I'd be perfectly happy with the C325BEE as my stereo amp and I'd buy yet another used motorcycle with the money I saved from the M3. People ask me if they 'need' an M3. Of course they don't. It's purely a 'do I WANT it' kind of thing. But it does do some things other amps cannot, aside from brute squad kind of power - optional HP filters, bass/treble/tilt options, RS-232, pre-out/main-ins, HT bypass etc, etc and it looks dead sexy and has no audible noise. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 351 Registered: Mar-04 | Let's watch some Stanley cup finals! Zorro for once you and I agree, go Detroit! |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1193 Registered: Apr-06 | Also, while I won't claim Wikipedia is the greatest source on the planet... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing "The goal of marketing is to build and maintain a preference for a company and its products within the target markets. The goal of any business is to build mutually profitable and sustainable relationships with its customers. While all business domains are responsible for accomplishing this goal, the marketing domain bears a significant share of the responsibility." |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1566 Registered: Jun-07 | "For a long time, we sold Parasound with its brighter, more dynamic sound and B&K with its warmer lusher, sound and people who I thought might like Parasound fell in love with B&K and vice versa." So you DO claim you can hear differences in sound between different Brands of Electronics. Thats all I was looking for dude. Which is better between the two is all based on preference of that person. But at least they can hear that there is that difference in the first place. Thats all I was trying to say. On a side note, I do think the M3 is a great integrated amp. I also think the B60 is also a wicked integrated amp. But the point is, both sound different in a lot of ways. Thats all my point is JA. What was your main reasoning buying the M3, other than being a dealer? I'm not trying to sound snobby, just curious. Perhaps you fell in love with its sound right away, and thats a good reason. But not because it looks good on paper, or that you did a DBT and couldn't tell the difference.lol Come on. When a new customer comes in and listens to a C372 and the M3 side by side, and turns to you and goes, there is no difference between those two amps that I can hear, hell there is a bigger difference between my two, left and right speakers at home than that that 800 dollar amp, and that 2700 dollar amp.lol what do you say to that? I would probably say....buddy you obviously have trouble hearing. I am sure you would be thinking the same thing. No? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1567 Registered: Jun-07 | Crossed posts again. "Certainly the M3 has 3x the power which counts for something" Not really. Most audiophile companies, make great sounding products with minimal power. A 600 watt per channel, Emotiva, power amp sounds better...or measures better than that of a Bryston or NAD power amp rated at 120 watts per channel? No way man. Maybe it counts for something, but surely doesn't mean it will sound better, or last as long. I know power supplies have a lot to do with the sound quality, but just because its bigger doesn't mean better. lol |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 354 Registered: Apr-08 | Well, as long as the customer *perceives* the relationship to be mutually beneficial and spends tons of money, then it's the same thing as mutually beneficial. If you *think* spending twice as much on a Bryston has benefit to you, even if it doesn't, and you spend a ton of money with them, then mission accomplished. Marketing can also be about shorter periods of time, perhaps 10 years where the company gets way more out of you than is sane or mutually beneficial and while you may leave, they got more out of you than they might have hoped for in a lifetime. Marketing is just a tool. It can be wielded in all sorts of ways. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2739 Registered: May-05 | "And your preference for your Bryston are purely anecdotal, unscientific and almost certainly tainted by bias, whether you like it or not." Whether you like it or not, your preference for the M3 over the B60 or B100 (even though you haven't compared the two) is more anecdotal, unscientific, and almost certainly biased than mine.At least I've heard them side by side. I'm glad you like the M3. I'm sure you like it as much as I like my B60. But I know for a fact that the differences are more than slight and imaginary. That's not to say that you wouldn't prefer the M3 in the same situation if you weren't biased. Switching back and forth between the two makes it very obvious. Furthermore, I'd more likely have had a bias for the M3, seeing as how I owned NAD gear at the time. In case you missed a thread here a while back, I stated something along the lines of I really wanted to like the M3. Another one of your biased opinions - more power doesn't mean better sound. So long as the speakers are being driven properly by the amp, the number of watts is pretty much meaningless. Very few people will drive either a B60 or an M3 to their respective limits. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 356 Registered: Apr-08 | Nick, last I checked, more power is more power. if it is also good power, it certainly doesn't hurt. Except maybe the electric bill. But for me, 30W or so is plenty. I'm hoping NAd comes out with a smaller 100W M amp, to be honest to be more in most people's comfort zone. Regardless of what you think the engineering is amazing. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 357 Registered: Apr-08 | I didn't say I preferred the M3's sound better, but it is heftier, sexier, more fully featured and measures better, so if I were taking a chance, I'd bet the money on the M3. One would think if Bryston were THAT good, the product's measurements would reflect it and it would be a blow out on the spec sheet as well. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot new in amp design, it's really just attention to detail and spending the money for the good parts. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1195 Registered: Apr-06 | "Well, as long as the customer *perceives* the relationship to be mutually beneficial and spends tons of money, then it's the same thing as mutually beneficial." If both sides of the transaction are satisified (this includes in the long term) with the product/payment, then it is mutually beneficial. One can spend tons of money and still have a mutually beneficial relationship. Look at Ferrari. "If you *think* spending twice as much on a Bryston has benefit to you, even if it doesn't, and you spend a ton of money with them, then mission accomplished." Are you saying that there aren't benefits to having a Bryston? Are they trying to defraud anyone? I suspect there are at least a few people that would be interested in having a high quality product that is warranted for practically their lifetime, even if that meant they paid a slightly higher up front cost. "Marketing can also be about shorter periods of time" Marketing, at least in its true/academic form, is related to the long term performance of a company, not trying to make a quick buck off a dimwit. "perhaps 10 years where the company gets way more out of you than is sane or mutually beneficial" Thats why we have competition. "Marketing is just a tool. It can be wielded in all sorts of ways." Certainly. But there is a correct and incorrect way to wield it, just like a hammer. If you wield it correctly, your company will be profitable for the long term. If you wield it incorrectly, it will eventually die at the hands of competitors. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 360 Registered: Apr-08 | I'm assuming you understand viral marketing as well then. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 349 Registered: Jul-07 | What a bunch of circle talk. There ARE differences, there AREN'T differences. Power certainly counts for something....no wait, 30 watts is enough. Your opinions are unscientific....well lookie there, my opinions are unscientific too. Jeepers John, you're all over the map. The differences you just listed in the the different brands of gear are the exact types of comments you chastised everyone else for, saying they couldn't hear differences, they were imaginary. What a complete hypocrite. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 350 Registered: Jul-07 | "I'm assuming you understand viral marketing as well then." Stand back, he's about to unleash his vast intelliect on the masses. Chest puffed out, head swollen, and..... |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2744 Registered: May-05 | I thought I was the only one who caught that (the contradictions in his posts). |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1197 Registered: Apr-06 | "I'm assuming you understand viral marketing as well then." Yup. And I assume you understand the difference between marketing and advertising? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 361 Registered: Apr-08 | There are differences in amps, some are even audible. But they're not gigantic, not night and day, not 'this kills that' or anything like it. That's what I'm getting at. You'd struggle to hear them in a DBT, assuming you can hear them at all. And you'd struggle even more to know which sound is 'better' if you don't know what it is. It's easy to say 'this is better' if you know what the brand is. All this talk of 'Bryston blows away NAD' is just completely ridiculous. At worst, given the similar price point, they're just different. Which one you prefer is up to you, don't just act like it means one brand is 'better' than another. The very first thing I learned in this business is just how small the differences really are with people trying to 'prove' to me how big they were with their green pens and frozen CDs and all that BS. I trained myself to hear the subtle differences, but they remained quite subtle, certainly not black and white, night and day, hot and cold as you guys would pretend. Some of you seem to suffer from self-esteem problems and this is your way of feeling good, since you hear 'so well'. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10284 Registered: Dec-04 | And parts that don't erupt. I think the NAD site quoted 'quite spectacular' as the failer of the power caps. With a one year warranty. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1568 Registered: Jun-07 | No I caught it as well. Lets compare a 3B sst to a Nad C272 for a second. 1.) The NAD C272 rates more power, so it must be better 2.) The Bryston is 20 pounds heavier...so IT must be better..?? 3.) There is no difference in electronics..so they are both the same?? 4.) NAD releases post on their site regarding the large amount of burning C272's, and caps blowing. Bryston comes with 20 year warranty.....But I thought there was no difference in electronics? 5.) JA will claim I am not comparing apples to apples do the price difference...but I thought there was no difference in electronics? 6.) The NAD C272 is sexier, and more feature filled...oh well then, in that case I better bet my money on the NAD.NOT! 7.) "more power is more power. if it is also good power, it certainly doesn't hurt" ...So you rather have more power, than GOOD power?lol Even if the first watt sucks...as long as there is a lot of it...lol. WAIT!! I THOUGHT THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE IN AMP DESIGN!!! I am confused.....Stu, guys, shed some light for me. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1569 Registered: Jun-07 | Crossed posts. I am not trying to say anything blows away anything. I am just saying there is a difference. Sometimes more than subtle. Now that you have admitted that I can now go in peace. Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2746 Registered: May-05 | I wish I could train myself to hear better. Also keep in ind that a product can be significantly better than another without sounding any different. Sound alone doesn't make one better than the other. I'll humor you and act like there is no sonic difference between the NAD M3 and Bryston B100. Which is better? Bryston is made in Bryston's own factory by people making an honest living wags. NAD selects its factory by going with the lowest bidder. Chinese sweat shop labor comes to mind. Bryston has a 20 year transferrable warantee. NAD has a 3 year warantee. Bryston has an intellegent human being answer the phone that tries to talk you through problems. NAD will get back to you at their earliest convenience. Bryston hasn't had any serious issues with their gear. NAD has had countless hiss and hum problems which they refused to acknowledge. Bryston will repair virtually anything they've ever made, bringing it back to original specs, if net better. NAD can't fix the hum of a two year old AVR. Why would anyone pay more for a Bryston when they can get an NAD? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2747 Registered: May-05 | That is a way in which Bryston blows NAD away. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1570 Registered: Jun-07 | Stu- my point exactly. Dont forget the fact that their 20 year warranty is transferable as long as its sold by a "dealer". After talking to Bryston, they still pretty much warranty anything within the 20 years. With no questions asked. You can also buy a Bryston Amp, use it for 15 years, with no problems, and then sell it for a good buck, as it holds its value. NAD? I don't even think I have seen a 15 year old NAD for sale, its out of warranty, and its worth about 40 bucks. Oh and the amount of money you have to pay to up-keep it after 5 will easily put you in the hole. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2748 Registered: May-05 | I was wrong and gave NAD too much credit. NAD has a 2 year warranty on their new gear, not 3. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1571 Registered: Jun-07 | 2? Its even less now? lol |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 362 Registered: Apr-08 | Ummm, yeah, Nick, you're totally misreading what I'm saying here by clipping stuff out of context. I didn't say more power is better, i said it doesn't hurt and, in a sense, more power is 'measuring better', I didn't say a C272 is sexy at all, it's rather homely etc, etc, etc. Stu, if you want to pay for a longer warranty, by all means, go ahead. There's nothing wrong with that. If you want to buy a B100 for its built in DAC, go ahead. But the whole Bryston sounds better because I say it does is what I'm against. Does it? Or are you just biased towards it. I'm not saying NAD hasn't had issues, they put out a whole lot more product than Bryston and at far lower prices most of the time. You have to do volume to pull that off. Bryston doesn't make the entry level stuff. As far as I can tell, $1500 is about their least expensive product and Bryston has fewer features and capabilities in its products. They're more like an Adcom or Parasound in that way. NAD is amazing because they can spit out a whole lot more product and variety of often complicated product than Bryston and that means they'll have more issues than Bryston, but it gets people into a fun hobby. And, BTW, Nick, you don't see a lot of NAD used because people like it and keep it. I know a LOT of customers that have 25+ year old NAD. And when it sells, it goes for surprising amounts of money, given the age. Sheesh, you guys can't even give NAD credit where credit is due. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1949 Registered: Nov-05 | I do - I think NAD is a great product for the money. I've always maintained that outlook and still have a NAD in my system. The issue with most of us is not NAD, JA. It is you. One day you'll get it. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1572 Registered: Jun-07 | Do a search on Ebay, you find more used NAD and Rotel than almost anything. Its just all withing the 1-4 year old range. "more power is 'measuring better'" So by it measuring better based on power ratings doesn't mean its actually better then? But I thought you had said measurements on paper mean the product is better? *Scratches head* Yes NAD can spit out a lot of product, and cut corners doing so to accomplish this. Meaning they cut corners on people, and products used inside their stuff. Its easy to spit out more product when you have sweat shops building it for you. A Hand full of Canadians build Bryston stuff, and they QA it with their own eyes. Oh and then run it through a full bench test, to make sure it wont have problems for at least 20 years. So by agreeing that NAD puts out a lot more product, and by doing so will have to cut corners and build cheaper products...you agree that NAD is not Built as well, or as expensive as a Bryston product? Agree? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2749 Registered: May-05 | The arguement can also be made that the reason why there aren't very many older NAD products being sold is because they broke down and weren't financially worth repairing, if they could be fixed at all. What is "surprising amounts of money?" Knowing a lot of customers with older NAD products is purely anecdotal and unscientific, to loosely quote you. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1573 Registered: Jun-07 | I still like NAD. Still own NAD. For the money, or on a budget, it is still my favorite gear to go with. Hell I am buying my mother a 315bee/515bee combo soon. But I still know a 'typical' sold NAD is not built as well as any 'typical' Bryston. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1574 Registered: Jun-07 | And I also know, by doing numerous A/B testes between my own gear and others, and in stores. That I prefer the presentation of a Bryston to a NAD any day of the week. MO. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2751 Registered: May-05 | NAD makes a quality product at its price point. I've owned NAD for a number of years and had no complaints for the money spent. If I was upgrading and didn't have Bryston money (not that I can afford brand new Bryston), it would be on the top of my list. But that doesn't mean that something along the lines of Bryston isn't worth the additional money. The M3 was on the top of my audition list when I was contemplating upgrading. It just so happened that I liked other stuff better for the money. The McIntosh MA6300 blew the doors off it IN MY OPINION. So did the Naim Nait 5i for half the price. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1950 Registered: Nov-05 | I will also admit that here in Aus on Ebay, NAD always attracts many bidders and yes, I've seen plenty of old NAD gear on sale. Still, to say there aren't signficent (or night and day differences) between amps is just plain ridiculous. JA, you may as well call my wife a liar (I double dare you) as she picked the night and day difference between our C162/C272 combo and the MFA5 that replace it. And so did I. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2752 Registered: May-05 | My wife whom couldn't care less about this stuff noticed a huge difference between NAD's and Bryston's presentation. And on top of that, I didn't say a word to her as to what to look for, thereby biasing her. She wouldn't know what I was talking about if I mentioned dynamics, forwardness, soundstaging, etc. Yet she knew it sounded better in every regard. The best part about it, she said it sounded a lot better without being asked. Trust me when I say this, my wife doesn't hand out compliments just to make me feel better. Especially when it comes to this stuff which she states "I just don't get what the big deal is." |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1575 Registered: Jun-07 | lol Im in the same boat as you STU. I had six people tell me the differences they heard, none of which care about the hobby. My wife??lol she only claims she hates it until she hears it, and secretly loves it. *I know she loves it* And she too, after swapping the two amps out could hear the difference. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2753 Registered: May-05 | My wife cares as much about audio as I care about here shoes and pocketbooks. Maybe that's a little harsh. She doesn't mind music being played at a respectable level. I however have no interest in the latest Coach bag. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 363 Registered: Apr-08 | Nick, I'd say NAD is built equal Bryston at the same price, but with better parts. Stu, I'm fine with what you're saying right up until the 'blows the doors off' part. That just tells me you're not a good listener and don't know how to prevent bias when you or others are listening. Do those same models in a DBT and you'll quickly find out there's no 'blowing of doors off'. THAT is my problem with what some of you guys say. Talk is cheap and exaggeration easy. I found out very easily doing level matched instant A/B tests just how similar amplifiers really sound and it's far smaller than your imagination tells you. Taking out one product, installing another and then turning it on 5 minutes later with levels being totally different doesn't make for useful commentary at all, let alone the kind of BS most reviewers spew. At least I'm not Tom Noussaine. He'll tell you that a $200 Pioneer receiver sounds IDENTICAL to a Bryston and the only reason he owns the Bryston is that it is more powerful and has the long warranty. Seriously. I argued just as strongly with him over this as I'm arguing with you guys that the differences aren't as big as you're imaging and you're AT LEAST imagining a lot of it! One nice trick that some companies do is just goose the volume control a bit so that it plays louder ad the same, let's say, 9:00 position than another. Instantly, pretty much everyone will think the amp that plays louder at that volume level adjustment is better. Like I said, if I were a marketing guy at some of these companies, I'd be howling at how easily you guys eat up some of this. And the really funny thing is you've been so programmed that you actually fight any kind of common sense! |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 365 Registered: Apr-08 | MR, I wouldn't call your wife a liar, I'd just have her submit to a DBT and embarrass her a little. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1951 Registered: Nov-05 | I very much doubt you'd be able to do that JA. Maybe what some us call a significent difference is only a subtle variation to you - that being the case I suggest getting your ears syringed. Had mine done once and could hear a whole new world. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 351 Registered: Jul-07 | "....I'm arguing with you guys that the differences aren't as big as you're imaging...." WHAT !! You're arguing over what you think we're imagining ? Good grief. You've completely lost your grip John. Look, it's very easy. You don't like how people describe the differences they hear. Nobody cares. There. Next topic. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 352 Registered: Jul-07 | Oh, and you're full of youself. Almost forgot that one. Oh, and you can't admit your opinions are your own, and only your own. You state them as fact without any proof of your own while demanding proof of others. And you insult some very bright, helpful people by telling them what they hear as differences aren't really there....but then you say they are there. I know I've left some things out, but you get the idea. |
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Bronze Member Username: SnapcatPost Number: 56 Registered: Oct-07 | As I said earlier, I think the room thing is THE most confusing part about listening at an audio store. My room is no where near as perfect acoustically as some of the higher end audio store rooms. The entry level stuff usually is just crammed together in an ok room. Not to fan the flame, but I'll do a DBT in my room, with my equipment and my music. If I do one in a strange room with a few pieces of different equipment, it'll be much tougher if not impossible. I think that you do notice differences in equipment or spaces you're not familiar with. That's the thing, you notice the differences from that with which you've become accustomed. I'm not biased about the Bryston. I can sell it next week if it's not what I want. I can also sell the NAD. However, I maintain that they sound differently from one another in my room. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2754 Registered: May-05 | You obviosuly can't read very well, John. You completely missed the part where I wrote "IN MY OPINION." I even capitalized it in my post so you wouldn't miss it. Not a good listener? Get off your high horse. What makes you think you're any better than anyone else? The reason why everyone here can't stand you isn't because of your opinions. Its because you think you're better and smarter than anyone else. You argue that you're just giving opinions, yet when some clearly states their OPINION (capitalized again), you tell them they're wrong. Just like you said you don't need a DBT to fully evaluate a system (although you just changed that again), I didn't need a DBT to form the OPINION that the Mac MA6300 blew the doors off the M3. What do I mean by 'blew the doors off it?' Very simple - EVERYTHING THE M3 DID, THE MA 6300 DID BETTER. Not to mention build quality. Bias did have something to do with it. I was hoping the M3 would better the MA6300 for a few dollars less. And some more of your ignorant assuming - What makes you think the 2 amps weren't level matched? What makes you think the the salesman needed to disconnect one and connect the other? I wasn't the only one who thought the M3 fell on its face. Not that others wouldn't prefer the M3, but it was my strong, educated, and unbiased OPINION that the Mac blew the doors off the M3. Furthermore, where is your evidence that the M3 uses better parts than the B100? Is that fact or opinion? If its fact, back it up. I'd love to see parts lists for both. Yet another unsubstantiated claim you're slipping in there. I have no problem with you arguing what you PREFER. But to say my PREFERENCE and OPINION is plain wrong makes you the POS that you are. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1576 Registered: Jun-07 | "Nick, I'd say NAD is built equal Bryston at the same price, but with better parts. " WHAT!!!! Is this a fact, that you know of? Come on JA. Can you honestly say the NAD's are built as well as a Bryston coming from a Sweat shop, line worker, who is 12 years old and makes a dollar a day compared to an educated 40 year old making 20-30 dollars an hour at his own work station. I am going to research this further actually. I want to see what kind of capacitors and parts NAD Masters use compared to that of a 90 pound Bryston. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2757 Registered: May-05 | Here's a little reading for you, John. What makes it even better is that the prices of Bryston gear in the UK is double what they are here, which gets factored into the price/performance equation. Personally, I'd think the Brits would be biased toward their own manufacturers who buy up advertising space in their mags. A North American company who doesn't advertise in their mag did this well should say something... MEMO: To all Bryston Customers SUBJECT: What Hi-Fi Ultimate Guide to Hi-Fi Magazine - England May 21st, 2008 Hi All, Well this is a milestone -- the April 2008 issue of the British magazine What Hi-Fi Sound and Vision has listings of their top choices and best buys in quality hi-fi components for 2008. I am happy to report that Bryston received three listings all with 5 STARS: 1. Bryston BCD-1 CD Player. 2. Bryston BP26DA Preamp and 2B SST Power Amp Combination. 3. Bryston B100 SST DAC Integrated Amplifier. The price ranges on the CD category ranged from a low price of 2,050 GBP to 33,000 GBP. The Bryson CD Player was the least expensive in the category -- best buy or What! Prices ranges on the Preamp/Poweramp category were from 5,850 GBP to 27,000 GBP -- guess which one was the least costly? -- Bryston Combo! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12701 Registered: May-04 | . SP - Why are you still beating this POS fishy? |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 754 Registered: Dec-06 | Things ain't looking good for the human contradiction once again. Of course, I think he lost all credibility a looong time ago. It's still fun to watch him try to defend the indefensible....lol. oh...congrat's to snapcat. I hope you're enjoying the Bryston. It blows the NAD away. Night and day. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1577 Registered: Jun-07 | LOL Stryvn - where u been lately. Don't see u posting much. Not much to post about I guess. Keep posting Stryvn, it blows me away, night and day. lol. You can't get the rep of being the best in the world just from Marketing. Nope, your product has to hold up too. Bryston, McInstosh, yup, both hold up. Both top dogs. Hands down. *Stirs the pot* lol jokes. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 366 Registered: Apr-08 | Nick, i said comparing NAD and Bryston at the same prices. Of course, NAD has the advantage since they're built in China, assuming Bryston is still built in Canada. Now, if you say that Bryston has better QC, that might be true. But the NADs are much heavier beasties for the same price. The M3 outweighs the B100 by about 20 lbs. Stu, it's nice that Bryston gets awards, they deserve it. I'd rather have Bryston than all but a few brands in their price class. Of course, NAD and NAD Masters has racks up more awards than that in a month, typically, and, to be honest, getting awards and recommendations is pretty easy and close to meaningless in the end. But the real issue, again, is the hyperbole. Go on and on about it if you want, but you can't browbeat me into respecting your opinion because your opinion is clearly based on belief, not reality. And the more you talk, the more I realize how you're just trying to fit in with the crowd here. Too bad. There's more to life than fitting in or buying things just because other people push them. Snapcat, I'd be curious. I didn't take your OP as over the top, though I am sincere in that we do run much more expensive and difficult speakers with the C372 and people love it (even replacing stuff twice as much sometimes). But it's tough to even discuss this stuff with everyone making it personal. It seems you can't have your own opinion hear, it has to line up with the crowd or you pay the price. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2758 Registered: May-05 | "Go on and on about it if you want, but you can't browbeat me into respecting your opinion because your opinion is clearly based on belief, not reality." No more nor no less based in reality than your opinions. Actually, mine is based in more reality than yours. I've directly compared the B60 to everything I've mentioned. You have not. Not a single piece that I've mentioned. Yet you state the differences are so small that I'm imagining them. Pretty bold statement for a guy who hasn't heard the gear. I guess I should discredit my own opinions that I've rationally come to by comparing the gear directly against each other, and believe the M3 is superior because you say it is. You do after all have superior ears compared to mine, and a true knowledge of all the gear that you haven't heard. The M3 is the best because you say so, no matter how unsubstantiated your claims. I should DBT the M3 against the others that you haven't heard, because I'm imagining the others are better, when in all reality they aren't, even though you haven't heard them. But wait, the DBT isn't very useful in auditioning gear. Please master, teach me more. I want to learn your ways. I'll blindly follow you and your advice no matter where you take me. Your ears and intellect are vastly superior to mine. I'll ignore all my personal preferences, in favor of yours. It'll be hard, but I've got the discipline. Please tell me what to buy and like, so I can stop the insanity which is imaginary, and get back to reality - though I've never been there before. "It seems you can't have your own opinion hear, it has to line up with the crowd or you pay the price." Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You've discredited everyone's opinion here. You've called everyone's opinion imaginary with no basis in reality. Any opinion that isn't your's is wrong because your's is the only opinion based in reality (even though you haven't heard the gear you call inferior- how's that reality?). Yet somehow, you're the victim. This is the reason why everyone hates you. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2759 Registered: May-05 | "SP - Why are you still beating this POS fishy?" Because I honestly had nothing better to do with my time today. I literally sat at work all day long staring at the computer. I have no patients for the whole week, yet for some reason have to go in for 8 hours. At least I can show up at whatever time I want. I've got the whole week with nothing better to do, John. Keep it coming! |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 755 Registered: Dec-06 | "Of course, NAD has the advantage since they're built in China..." LOLOLOL... Not even the Chinese believe this....lol Fishy got a hook in his mouth Fishy got problems. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2761 Registered: May-05 | They do have the advantage, Stryvn. They have the advantage of being assembled by prisoners or 10 year old kids. Both of these groups care a great deal about how good a job they did. Skilled and educated adults who make an honest living wage and are given ample time have no pride in their work. Uneducated and unskilled people forced to make something faster than they realisticly can pay so much more attention to detail. HUGE ADVANTAGE! I can't wait until they start importing their cars! I'll be the first in line! |
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Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 89 Registered: Jul-05 | thought I was the only one who caught that (the contradictions in his posts). No Stu, you are not the only one. Did you get a chnce to read my post? Zorro Bronze Member Username: Zorro Post Number: 87 Registered: Jul-05 Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 02:00 pm: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you care what opinion John has? True, We need to let Johnny fantasize about his audio knowledge, his opinion and "experience" lack validation anyway, no more proof is needed about how much he lies and contradicts himself. Let him be; after all he doesn't really hurt the world being the way he is right? IMHO, there is no sense in replying to his crap, we know he is just talk so why keep feeding him? I am telling you guys, is just wasted time!!!!} And now Johnny is a marketing wizard! hahahaha what a joke! |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 369 Registered: Apr-08 | Hey, i just think it's sad to see so many people living in self-deception. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1312 Registered: May-06 | JA - "Instantly, pretty much everyone will think the amp that plays louder at that volume level adjustment is better." Oh well that simplifies it for me, the only differences in gear now is volume. JA - "Go on and on about it if you want, but you can't browbeat me into respecting your opinion because your opinion is clearly based on belief, not reality." Well at least Stu has a belief... JA - "And the more you talk, the more I realize how you're just trying to fit in with the crowd here. Too bad" Yes JA too bad that you couldn't recognize class at any level, be it Stu, equipment, marketing, I need not go on. BTW John that is not an insult it is reality, not that you could ever recognize it. JA - "But it's tough to even discuss this stuff with everyone making it personal." Go back up and read the last two items from you I quoted... JA - "Hey, i just think it's sad to see so many people living in self-deception." Been looking at your tri-fold mirror wardrobe again? Like id I tried to avoid most of this, but this is too silly to ignore. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 370 Registered: Apr-08 | Well, keep trying. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 352 Registered: Mar-04 | "I am hoping NAd comes out with a smaller 100W M amp, to be honest to be more in most people's comfort zone. Regardless of what you think the engineering is amazing". May 2007, Zetex and NAD Electronics unveil collaboration in the development of high-performance digital audio amplifiers. I read there would be an update concerning this collaboration early this year. Anything you can tell the folks who are interested? There will be more news about this this summer. (response from Nad). I know the first amp using zetex will be a masters series amp. Slightly off topic but I think we may have reached the point of diminishing returns with the Nad vs Bryston thing. I own Nad and like it and if ignorance is bliss than so be it. For those who own and enjoy bryston that is wonderful. I love the look and what the M3 offers and someday I will demo one at home as a dealer offers me this option. I don't know if I would be able to do the same with bryston, if I could I would. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1578 Registered: Jun-07 | "Of course, NAD has the advantage since they're built in China, assuming Bryston is still built in Canada" What???!!! Are u absolutely INSANE!!!! You been to Canada lately JA- were only ranked top 3 in Economy,Jobs,Education,Resources and you claim that something being built, by THAT company, in their OWN country, that doesn't rely on slave working in sweat shops, and that pay very good wages to their employees has the disadvantage. Where are you from again?lol Wake up man, that statement is dead on WRONG! I design and build(with my own two hands) high end digital surveillance systems for very large companies John. I have 3 diploma's, slightly EdUmeDicAtEd, and take great pride in building a solid product as I know the companies that are installing them are relying on our product. I have seen the products that come from china, they are CRAP!!! Made in a sweat shop, on a line, with the cheapest parts possible. They get paid a dollar a day, I get paid 38 dollars AN HOUR!!! IN CANADA!!! lol See where I am going with this JA. Do you still think china has the upper hand when assembling "high end" products. Come on man. Unbridled- I agree man, this crap that is coming out of JA's mouth is becoming tiring, and simply put, I am done with it. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 354 Registered: Jul-07 | THC - The Human Contradiction. What will he say next ? How long will it take after that to directly contradict it ? How long till he chastises someone for doing something he just did himself ? Stay tuned and find out. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2762 Registered: May-05 | Id, You can audition Bryston in your home for 30 days, whith a money back guarantee. Bryston allowed Audio Advisor to become an anuthorized dealer, with the provision that they allow customers 30 days to return gear, and only if there isn't a dealer within a certain radius. Here's their B60 listing - http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BYB60RSST Still waiting for John Ashman's evidence, like a parts list for the M3 and anything Bryston, that backs up his claim that the M3 uses better parts. Also waiting for him to justify his 'if Bryston is still made in Canada' claim. Throw all your useless unsubstantiated claims out there, John. It undoubtedly adds to your credibility. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2765 Registered: May-05 | I figure I'd share this with the rest of you to add to John's credibility... JA - "Chris, opinions are easy. Having one based on experience or based in fact is harder." Me - "Kind of like prefering the NAD M3 over the Bryston B60 or B100 without ever hearing them? That's pretty hard. Please enlighten me on how to prefer one product over another without hear one of them, Master." JA - "i didn't say i preferred either, except that the NAD clearly measures better and has more useful features. And I'm extremely happy with the M3's performance. It's transparency is as good as I can imagine." I thought it was all of us who were imagining, and you were the one who based your decisions on science and reality. If the M3's transparency is as good as you can imagine, you seriously lack imagination. The B60 and B100 are far more transparent. But you wouldn't know that, having never DBT'ed them, nor at the very least hearing them side by side. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2766 Registered: May-05 | Your imagination is anecdotal and unscientific at best. My "imagination" is based on the reality of actually hearing the amps side by side. (Kung-Fu Theater Accent) The student has become THE TEACHER!!! |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 371 Registered: Apr-08 | You guys are sounding so desperate at this point, all I can do is laugh at you. Well, sometimes i feel sorry for you, but you make it hard. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2769 Registered: May-05 | You can't be serious, John. That's the best come back you've got? So many questions are going unanswered... Did you get those parts lists yet? When are you going to stop imagining what a B60 or B100 sounds like and hear one in reality? Have you heard a Mac MA6300? DBT them against an M3? When are you going to teach me how to prefer a component over its competition without actually hearing the competition? Strike that last question. I just have to convince myself my prefered component is better than I could ever imagine. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 375 Registered: Apr-08 | Did you take a DBT yet? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2770 Registered: May-05 | Answer a series of questions with a single question. I've never taken an audio DBT. I never claimed it was important. You did. Have you ever taken a DBT? When is the Bryston/MAC/M3 DBT scheduled? You challenge everyone here to one, what about you? What about my other questions? |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 756 Registered: Dec-06 | hehehe...the human contradiction dismantled again. lolol. When are you going to teach me how to prefer a component over its competition without actually hearing the competition? Just imagine it's so, Stu, and it's so. Then argue the point to the death with unbelievably stupid statements like, "Of course, NAD has the advantage since they're built in China, assuming Bryston is still built in Canada." |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 376 Registered: Apr-08 | It's cheaper to build in china, therefore NAD has the advantage in construction costs - they can build a more exotic amp for the same or less money. If you don't understand that, i think you should look in the mirror and say the words 'unbelievably stupid' several times. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 377 Registered: Apr-08 | Stu, do you realize how desperate and needy you sound? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2771 Registered: May-05 | Another unbelievably stupid statement - The M3 uses better parts than the Bryston. In my boredom, I'm contemplating starting a John's Greatest Hits thread. Have you had enough time to come up with answers to my questions yet John, or do you need more time? |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 757 Registered: Dec-06 | lolol...Yea, because the kid over there making a buck a day is concerned about quality for that amp he's building today and shipping out tomorrow and will never see again. Well, at least compared to them stupid Canadians up there. Man, you're thick as a brick John. Answer the questions, Fishy. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 378 Registered: Apr-08 | Stu, there's no point answering the questions of the close minded. When you actually want to learn something, let me know. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 379 Registered: Apr-08 | Hey, if you want to buy an amp that supports relatively local workers, I fully support you, 100%. But that wasn't the subject at hand. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 758 Registered: Dec-06 | Still waiting for John Ashman's evidence, like a parts list for the M3 and anything Bryston, that backs up his claim that the M3 uses better parts. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2773 Registered: May-05 | I've asked you to teach me on several occasions. Lets start with a simple one... Please let me how you came to the conclusion that the M3 uses better parts than the Bryston. Do you have a parts list? Did you take both of them apart and inspect the contents? I don't think that's a sarcastic nor close minded question at all. You made a statement, and I'm asking you how found this to be true. I have no reason to believe the M3 does or doesn't use better parts. I haven't seen a parts list, nor opened both up and compared. I'll open mindedly listen to any serious response you have. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1202 Registered: Apr-06 | "It's cheaper to build in china, therefore NAD has the advantage in construction costs" I'd be curious to know how much cheaper it is to build an amplifier in China... After all, skilled labor costs money no matter where in the world you are, and we aren't exactly talking about assembling Tonka trucks here. Moreover, with the crippled dollar, Chinese folks realizing that they can in fact ask for more money, etc, one has to wonder how big of an advantage it really is (and will be in the future). |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 759 Registered: Dec-06 | Stephen, he can defend that statement no more than he can defend the statement that the amp he tries to sell unsuspecting customers is better than an amp he's never heard. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 382 Registered: Apr-08 | Stephen, things always equalize. Remember when Japan was cheap and we thought they'd destroy us? Then it was Taiwan, then Korea, then China, etc, etc. Eventually they start making money and the jobs come back. As long as China is poor, we have a problem. I would never have given China MFN status, but what's done is done. Now I'm just praying that they will get a whiff of money and a taste for freedom and force a revolution in China. That would be good for everyone. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2775 Registered: May-05 | Good points, John. That would be very good for everyone. Lets keep the good points rolling... Will you please answer how you came the conclusion that the M3 uses better parts? You said when I actually wanted to learn something, to let you know. I'd like to learn how to determine which one uses better parts. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 356 Registered: Jul-07 | "When you actually want to learn something, let me know." Oh, please. Talk down to us some more John. Puff yourself all up. Then, with your infinate "wisdom", back up your claims like you ask other people to. PROVE your opinions John. Remember, we're not allowed having them because all of our opinions are pure fantasy, having not come from DBT's. But wait....neither did YOURS. But for some unknown reason you're alllowed to have opinions without proof, but we're not. Hmmmm. If I looked up the word hypocrite in the dictionary, it probably says "See John". |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1204 Registered: Apr-06 | Exactly John, which is why I suspect Chinese manufacturing isn't as big an advantage as it was say, 10 years ago. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/JubaksJournal/ChinasNewestExportI nflation.aspx?page=1 Food for thought. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1579 Registered: Jun-07 | I actually watched a thing on DateLine NBC about how the whole "build it in china to save money" will be gone in a few years and it will move back into North America. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 383 Registered: Apr-08 | Nick was putting words in my mouth, so I just said something a bit different, the 'better parts' being more of a deduction than a fact. NAD gear costs less in manpower to build than Bryston and they run on very tight margins. Since the two products are about the same price, and the NAD weighs quite a bit more and measures better, has very high S/N ratio preamp design and output devices and the NAD is the top end product vs, for a Bryston, it's more of an entry-level product, I'd say 'chances are'. On the other hand, maybe it just has more, bigger parts, like the very heavy dual transformers and it's more design difference than parts difference. Generally though, if you're looking at a high-end product, the high-end parts are reserved for the top of the line pieces, almost always. otherwise, you can't get people to step up. Like I said, just a deduction more than fact. Hence the "I would say that" (or maybe even 'it would make sense that....." rather than "NAD absolutely does use better....". I would bet that amp would cost $5000-$6000 if it were built here. And then people would say 'but it's just an NAD' and wouldn't listen to it. that's the problem we had with the S300. People wouldn't listen to it at home, wouldn't even try it. Then it was discontinued and then people read about how good it was and wanted to hear it. Too late, it was gone. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 384 Registered: Apr-08 | Chris, I'll stop talking down to you the moment you act like a grownup. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 385 Registered: Apr-08 | I'd love to see China fall down and manufacturing move away from them. I'd much rather be partnering up with Mexico, for instance, than China. I view this as a phase we are destined to go through. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2776 Registered: May-05 | "And then people would say 'but it's just an NAD' and wouldn't listen to it. that's the problem we had with the S300." The S3000 wasn't built nor designed by NAD and you know it. It's a Gryphon Audio product wearing an NAD badge. "Nick, I'd say NAD is built equal Bryston at the same price, but with better parts." That doesn't sound like a deduction to me. No mention of a 'chances are' either. Your post is a cop out. You got called out trying to pass off something you knew was obviously flawed, and that's the best you could do to save face. Good job. You get on people when they pass off their opinions as facts, yet can't see you're just as guilty. At least you finally answered that question. Gotta give credit wherever its due. What about my other questions? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 387 Registered: Apr-08 | See Stu, you said you were ready to act like a grownup and now i have to put you to bed without supper. Too bad. I thought you were better than that. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2777 Registered: May-05 | Do be upset with me because you got called out on an obvious lie. Actually, two obvious lies in the same post. That's not very grown up if you ask me. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 760 Registered: Dec-06 | Stu's posts blew his away. Night and day. Nice try though, Fishy. bye |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 357 Registered: Jul-07 | "Chris, I'll stop talking down to you the moment you act like a grownup." If by "grownup" you mean ignoring your BS and hypocrisy, then I think I'll pass. I don't engage in idle banter with someone who has insulted just about everyone on this board, but who is delusional enough to think he hasn't, or is indifferent enough not to care. But I will point out your obvious horse dung when I see it. If you want me to stop pointing it out, stop being such an ar$e. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 389 Registered: Apr-08 | Chris, all the evidence indicates that, except for Art, Stephen and a few others, the only other adults have been driven off. What you describe as 'horse dung' is reality, so you'll just have to keep throwing temper tantrums, I suppose. Don't forget to change your diaper though. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2783 Registered: May-05 | "What you describe as 'horse dung' is reality.." Only in your sick and dillusional mind. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2784 Registered: May-05 | Are you seeing planes? Is your name Tatoo? 'Cause I swear you're on Fantasy Island. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 390 Registered: Apr-08 | Wow, that's big boy talk, almost like you're in 3rd grade! My, they grow up so quickly. Stu, Chris, Jan, it's guys like you that keeps this such a tiny forum. Most threads are started by people with their first post and they don't seem to stick around that long. AVS has a huge diversity of opinion and there's room even for adults there. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2787 Registered: May-05 | Then why don't you go over there? Why do you think you're the only one in touch with reality? Everyone else here only imagines things while you alone know the facts. There's a bunch of people in mental hospitals who have that exact same view. Think about it. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 392 Registered: Apr-08 | Stu, I just think you're childish, insecure and desperately need to fit in with the group. If you'll recall, none of my original posts were ever directed at you personally, you took it upon yourself to get in my face. I can't help it if you the glass slipper fit. Grow up. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 761 Registered: Dec-06 | and you still can't answer the questions. Maybe it's because he's in New Mexico, folks, where all you have to do to be 'ahead of the curve' in audio is put up a halfass web page that barely functions. lol...nice try fishy. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 393 Registered: Apr-08 | You have to be THIS tall to ride that ride, sorry. Someday, when you grow up, you can ask me some questions if you like. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2789 Registered: May-05 | There are a few problems here that I'm not quite sure if you truly see or not. You made it personal pretty much from the get go. Personal to me and just about everyone else here. Everyone including you is entitled to their opinion. You dismissed everyone else's opinion and said they were imagining what they were hearing. Just like what you hear is your reality, what everyone hears is their reality. When people tried to defend their hearing, you insulted them. Present company included. THAT'S PERSONAL. To be totally honest, the overwhelming majority of the people here like NAD. Most of us have owned it, and some of use have moved on. Most of us who have moved on didn't move on because we hated it, we moved on because we could afford things we previously couldn't. Had I not been able to afford better, I'd still be very happy with my NAD gear. My Bryston gear didn't make my NAD gear worse. On the contrary it made me appreciate even more what it did for the money. While I can't speak for anyone but myself, I'd be willing to bet most feel the same way. There is a reason why everyone here ganged up on you. It has absolutely nothing to do with you being the new guy, or following each other's lead, or anything remotely close to that. It has to do with you discrediting everyone else's hearing. Not their gear. It has to do with your condecending approach, not your obvious passion for your M3. Anyone who didn't/doesn't agree with your opinion is imagining things. Your's is the only opinion based in reality and science. People take that personally. "I'm going to guess though, having not heard a B60, that it's wimpy little transformer and power output makes it seem "faster" to people and some people think that equates with better sound. Not me. Besides, if you think one amp "sounded better in every single aspect", the bias is so thick that you probably can't see your computer screen." Remember that? How is that not personal? That's the first time you addressed me. I asked you a few questions and you insulted my hearing in response. For the record (as I've stated many times) the M3 is an excellent amp, as is just about anything else NAD builds/built. Its not perfect, but nothing else is either. IMO the B60 is a better amp in every way. No bias. Had I thought the M3 was better for me, I'd have sold the B60 for what I paid for it and found an M3. I don't know if your 'I'm the victim here' charade is how you genuinely feel or if its just another way to annoy people. It makes no difference to me either way. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1208 Registered: Apr-06 | "AVS has a huge diversity of opinion and there's room even for adults there." Speaking of viral marketing, I'd say AVS would qualify. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10294 Registered: Dec-04 | Go back to AVS, JA. Uh I forgot, you are not wanted there either. Just contradictions and idle bullshite. Back in your diatribe you said that you didn't like the Planet player. I though that it didn't matter, man? It would sound perfect through your speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 763 Registered: Dec-06 | backed into a corner and dismantled. the human contradiction. lol....you look silly dude. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 764 Registered: Dec-06 | You have to be THIS tall to ride that ride, sorry. lol...this from a guy that rides a jap bike. Classic. You are somethin' else, man. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 394 Registered: Apr-08 | The thing that makes you guys so immature is that you can't let it go. You guys fling insults like an M16 flings bullets, but can't take even the slightest implication that you're biased or unscientific in your listening. I can handle all the insults and set you guys up to look like infants for the next 10 years if you like. Keep it coming. And like a lot of high-end is for people that can't hear, Harleys are for posers who can't ride.  |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 353 Registered: Mar-04 | For those who are familiar with the Nad sound how does the masters series sound improve upon the classic series sound? I have heard it is a similar presentation and have heard the opposite. For those who prefer the bryston sound what does it offer you that nad does not? Some feel bryston is dry but always revealing which was not seen as positive. I have read some reviews about the mcinotsh ma-6300 which felt that it offered a different sound as compared to it's brothers (6500-6900). |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 395 Registered: Apr-08 | Stephen, AVS is certainly viral marketing headquarters, but it's buried in so much other stuff that it's a whole lot more easily dismissed than the nonsense that goes on here. Might as well rename it the Rega/Bryston/McIntosh/Musical Fidelity only forum. Funny that if an expensive amp is warm or smooth or 'tube-like', that's great, but if an affordable amp has the same exact attributes, it's 'flawed' or 'awful' or 'slow'. Back when B&W was kinda warm and muffled and NHT was kinda bright and unrefined, the B&W guys would say the NHT was 'harsh'. Now that B&W is kinda bright and unrefined, and NHT is kinda smooth and warm, B&W is 'detailed' and NHT is 'muffled'. Same people. If Bryston made an amp that sounded like an M3 and charged $10k for it, most of the people here would be desperate to afford it somehow or another. Too bad that's how it works. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 358 Registered: Jul-07 | Can YOU spot the BS ? "The thing that makes you guys so immature is that you can't let it go." That is rich coming from you. Truly. Another knee slapper. "You guys fling insults like an M16 flings bullets..." As do you....in spades. "you're biased or unscientific in your listening" Where are the answers to the questions put to you John ? It appears your "opinions" are pretty much just as useless as anybodies. You have no more "science" behind your "facts" and opinions than we do. And your listening is biased by all those spec sheets you read instead of listening at face value. Music is listening pleasure John, not a science project. The science is interesting to some, but many are just interested in the end result. And if you're critical of that, that makes you ignorant and rude. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 396 Registered: Apr-08 | Keep it coming! Looking good, Chris! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1582 Registered: Jun-07 | "how does the masters series sound improve upon the classic series sound?" I have never heard the two side by side, but I would say fairly similar. Any thoughts on the differences in sound John? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 397 Registered: Apr-08 | Unscientifically speaking? Just a little better refinement, effortlessness and sense of 'blackness', but, yes, you're right, fairly similar. Not night and day, IMO, though others have said as much. Maybe I'm just jaded having done this so long. Still, I like the extra features, the extra power, the extra good looks. Interestingly, the really fun sounding amp was the old 902 power amp. 30W/ch, really 'punchy' and 'fast' sounding. Probably just a bit unrefined, but it has a spicy, punchy flavor to it. Very subtle, but it was just like a tiny dash of salt and pepper in the sound, reminiscent of the old 3020. Though, again, I wonder sometimes if I'd pick it out of a lineup or whether that was just how I was hearing that day. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1583 Registered: Jun-07 | JA- I agree. I would say NAD's master series compared to their classic series is overall, the same sort of sound engineering but just everything 'advanced', if that makes any sense. If your not a fan of the NAD classic sound, then most likely you wont like the NAD Masters series either. If you are a fan, then you will love the Masters series. Overall it is a definite improvement, but at cost of course. Unbridled ID- "Some feel bryston is dry but always revealing which was not seen as positive" Yes, some people do not like the typical Bryston sound. To my ears, its not dry, just very very neutral and detailed. And 'airy/open'. When going from NAD to Bryston, the first initial thought was that it was definitely 'dry' compared to the NAD sound. This of course was because I was very accustomed to the NAD sound. First impression was I could hear more of the music. After listening for hours and going back and forth continuously, I found the Bryston was not Dry at all, just very very Neutral and detailed, where as the NAD sound was very 'liquidy' and warm. The NAD has a punchy bass where as the Bryston has a tight/fast bass. The two sound different to me. Either could be liked more than the other. Just depends on your preference. Obviously I thought the Bryston was better, but I was also going from NAD classic series to Bryston, which IMO is a big step up. A more comparable demo would had been the Masters vs the Bryston stuff in my own room. Unbridled- You really need to listen to some stuff yourself, and see what you think. You may hate what I love, and love what I hate. That is the great thing about this hobby, not one single person listens or hears alike. You seem to be enjoying your NAD gear, and enjoying the music that is played on it, and if thats the case, look no further. Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1212 Registered: Apr-06 | "Unscientifically speaking?" What other way do we have? I suspect that no one here has the resources, time, or patience to perform a proper DBT, which is from a psychology standpoint, the only valid way to perform a listening test. "Maybe I'm just jaded having done this so long." If you want an opinion, I'd say you are most certainly jaded. I expect most posters on this forum are aware of the realities that science have said are so. We are aware of DBTs. I'm aware that my own mental or physical state will have a significant impact upon how I perceive a system I'm listening to. Nonetheless, I don't sit and worry about it, nor do I try to convince myself that something I heard was just a figment of my imagination. You acknowledge that you hear differences, but you try to discount them or call them unimportant. You talk about fun sounding amps, implying that there might exist a boring sounding amp. That sounds to me like there might be at least a reasonable difference between amplifiers, without even getting into the technical reasons why amplifiers differ. So yeah, jaded is a word for it. "Still, I like the extra features, the extra power, the extra good looks." Pride of ownership is a powerful thing not to be discounted when considering the value of an amplifier either. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1584 Registered: Jun-07 | Stephen M - You know me man, I try my best to stay out of stuff. Most of the time.lol. As I disagree with a lot of JA's Scientifically speaking ways, I would say I applaud him for having a good post on what he thought were key differences in sound. Not put him down for it. We have all, strongly let him know we do not agree with measuring an amp on paper, but by what our ears tell us. So when he has a good, honest post on the differences his ears hear, I say thats a pretty good step forward here. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 398 Registered: Apr-08 | NIck, if everything sounded alike, it sure would be a boring as$ hobby! I honestly don't have a fixed preference between something like Bryston or NAD, it could easily depend on my mood, the model or the speakers or room I have. i often tell people I could live with most amplifiers or most CD players. But NAD is a cool as$ company, as is Bryston. I just prefer to look at them as simply different, rather than better or worse. Especially since most of my customers just have different desires. I sell NAD because *most* people like or love it and it fits their budget. I phased out a lot of expensive brands because Masters is so good and does what I want without having to have a bunch of other vendors. A guy brought back my demo C355bee and wasn't in love with it, nor was in love with my Decco nor my competitor's Rotel through his B&Ws. I suspect the B&Ws are partly to mostly at fault, but hey, his wife gave them to him for a present, so what are you going to do? And, guess what? I recommended that maybe he look for a used Bryston B60 or YBA Integre DT or even a used Krell as they might have a little more of the 'zip' he is seeking. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 399 Registered: Apr-08 | As an aside, I thought people were really overdramatizing the differences between the brands and so I was equally dramatic in my response. It's really pleasant when someone says 'you know, i prefer the Bryston because i felt it has a little more snap in the bass and a little more vibrant sound" rather than 'The Bryston is better than the NAD in every way, night and day, it blows it away'. The former adds to the general anecdotal knowledge base, the latter is actually rather insulting to those that own the product that is 'blown away', as though their opinion of the product is invalid. It's like telling someone that blondes are dumb right in front of a blonde woman's husband, if you understand what i mean. It's like saying that anyone who has a different opinion or preference is an idiot. That's certainly how I felt when i read the thread. Maybe not purposeful, but I really felt insulted and pissed off after reading the first 10 posts or so. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2791 Registered: May-05 | IMO the best product NAD ever produced dollar for dollar was the 352 integrated. I've heard just about everything they've ever made, and always thought they hit the nail on the head with this one. The seperates are very slightly better. Certainly not worth the added cost when using appropriate speakers. The M3 is better, but not worth the added cost. JUST MY OPINIONS. I'd agree with John's M3 vs Classic Series views. I'd say more than "just a little bit," but there's no way to quantify that and we could mean the same amount. The flexibility, extra power, features, and better build quality aren't free and must be factored into the added cost. Not a bad amp at all for the money. You could do far worse. IN MY OPINION, Bryston's and NAD's presentation are very different. Bryston sounds more forward. The music easily and quite often breaks the front plane of the speakers. NAD's music hangs back more, and often doesn't step out in front of the speakers. Neither is right or wrong. Sitting in the second row isn't wrong, just as sitting at the midway point of a concert hall isn't wrong either. NAD sounds warmer and smoother. Some describe this as more tube like. I don't think that's an accurate statement, but people use it as such. Bryston's note edges sound crisper. Some may say less exagerrated, others may say harsh. Your interpretation of which of these types of sounds is correct probably depends on how close you're accustomed to sitting to live performers. The further back you sit, the more smoothed over the leading edges become. The closer you sit, the tighter the leading egdes. Standing 50 feet away, a cymbol can sound somewhat smooth. Standing 5 feet away its sounds way too sharp and egdy. Bryston's bass may seem lean to some. To others it sounds tight. NAD's bass may seem fuller to some. To others it sounds flabby. Personally, I much prefer Bryston's presentation to NAD's. It sounds like where I sit or stand during a concert. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1585 Registered: Jun-07 | JA- and Stu- props to both for two excellent posts. JA- "if everything sounded alike, it sure would be a boring as$ hobby" -You got that right man. Boring indeed. JA- " it could easily depend on my mood, the model or the speakers or room I have" -Exactly. I always love when a guy sits down to hear a system, and goes " I really hate the sound of that amp" lol well how do they know its wasn't the speakers, or the room, or the source? or all of the above together. Stu-"MO the best product NAD ever produced dollar for dollar was the 352 integrated. I've heard just about everything they've ever made, and always thought they hit the nail on the head with this one" I completely agree. I always thought the C352 was a great integrated amp for the money. And always thought it bested the C372 in a lot of ways. I am hearing really good things about the new entry level 315bee, which my Dealer claims is an insanely good amp for the entry level price. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 765 Registered: Dec-06 | That's certainly how I felt when i read the thread. Maybe not purposeful, but I really felt insulted and pissed off after reading the first 10 posts or so. I bolded the 'felt'. You felt a certain way, incorrectly, so you came in guns blazing. Wrong entrance, dude. Learn from that. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 400 Registered: Apr-08 | Keep in mind that I don't really care what your reaction is. If you want to fight and be ugly, I can do that. If you want to have a civil conversation, I can do that. I'd do it again under the same circumstances. If you want to keep it a running feud, I'm game. If you want to get over it, I'm game. Either way. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 766 Registered: Dec-06 | Then you won't make it. I tried. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1586 Registered: Jun-07 | I say we get over it. And talk music and audio. Whats done is done, and we have all had a say on what we feel about certain things. I wonder what Snapcat is listening to right now. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 767 Registered: Dec-06 | Decide on a conclusion that makes you feel good and then craft a witch hunt to get there. It's just backwards. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1587 Registered: Jun-07 | Stryvn- Still blazing up those lovely Studio 60's with the nice Rotel setup? You thinking about purchasing that P5?(Sick table). |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1588 Registered: Jun-07 | Did anybody realize Stu is a Athletic Trainer. Remind me not to piss him off.lol. Stu- I work out about 3 times a week, but when I played ball for Team Canada they had me about 15 pounds bigger from work out and eating regime. I am 5'10", 165 pounds at the moment. Just curious, whats the fastest way to throw on 5 pounds of muscle man? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 401 Registered: Apr-08 | Nick, the thing that worked best for me except my elbows can't do it any more is doing 50-75 pullups every other day, no matter how long it takes to do it. in a few weeks, it's pretty obvious you're gaining muscle fast. Of course, as i understand it, it's all about doing the heavy lifting and pulling up your own body around is tough. Breathing is a big thing too. I've found most weightlifters don't know how to breathe. Gotta exhale as you're exerting, in as you're coming back. Otherwise, you run out of oxygen and you can't push your muscles as far. I used to embarrass a lot of really big guys lifting weights in the gym mainly because I know how to breathe. Now I don't push nearly as hard because my joints have one by one become a bit wounded in various accidents, falls, walls falling on me etc. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 768 Registered: Dec-06 | Now I don't push nearly as hard because my joints have one by one become a bit wounded in various accidents, falls, walls falling on me etc. Lemme guess....those badass motorcycling skills? lol |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 402 Registered: Apr-08 | Uh, no. Nothing so dramatic. Having a bike that actually handles helps prevent those kind of things. Middle aged Harley owners are, as I recall, the biggest statistic in motorcycling, due to lack of experience and inherently poor handling. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 769 Registered: Dec-06 | anytime you wanna give it a go I got a thousand dollars says I'll outride you whenever you get the balls to accept the challenge on your jap bike. jap bike owner, who claims he owns a business, who can't afford an italian bike. $1000 is out there. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 403 Registered: Apr-08 | i have two Honda Hawk GTs and a Ducati Monster 900, FWIW. And i don't buy anything to impress anyone, especially motorcycles. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 354 Registered: Mar-04 | "IMO the best product NAD ever produced dollar for dollar was the 352 integrated". Some good deals on that unit now with the release of the c355. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 770 Registered: Dec-06 | congratulations. $1000 anytime. I'm glad for the jap bikes. It keeps the boys off the mens motorcycles. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 771 Registered: Dec-06 | and you've lied so much here, fishy, I'll bet your motorcycle says "Schwinn" on it. I don't believe a word you say. Come on, $1000. Back up your mouth for once. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 404 Registered: Apr-08 | Are you SERIOUSLY this immature?!? Talk about insecure wannabe. 'men's motorcycles'? "Jap bike?" I have the Ducati despite idiots like you. Maybe I should sell that and get a bike not ridden by morons. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2793 Registered: May-05 | Very common misconception, Nick. An Athletic Trainer is not a personal trainer or strength and conditioning coach. In Canada, we're called Athletic Therapists, which is more accurate IMO and in the opinion of countless other ATs. When a basketball player gets hurt at the college I work for, I'm the guy who goes onto the court. I do the first aid and initial assessment stuff, and the rehab stuff for the injuries. But that doesn't mean I don't know about strength and conditioning. I work very closely with that staff in developing rehab exercises. The current guy I work closest with is by far the best strength coach I've ever been around. The fastest way to thrown on 5lbs of muscle? Steroids. Seriously though, the best and safest way? Hard work. There's no substitute for hard work. Forget about traditional bench press, curls, squats, etc. They have their place, but they're not practical for anyone. Concentrate on Olympic style lifts - cleans, snatch, etc. The old school stuff like John was alluding to - pull ups, dips, push up, and squat thrusts are excellent too. These things are far better and more functional for everyday life than a bench press or curl could ever be. Also, for every pushing/pressing exercise you do, you should do a pulling exercise. If you do 3 different bench presses, you should do 3 different rows. This helps prevent imbalance injuries. A lot of people (I was one of them) did a lot of bench pressing stuff, and very little rowing type stuff. I had back spasms and postural problems that kept me from a lot of activity for quite a while. It wasn't until I went to college for this stuff that I realized why I had the problems. Surprisingly, Men's Health magazine is an awsome resource for this stuff. All of their contributers are experts in their fields. I own quite a few books the strength and conditioning guys have written. Here's an excellent link to part of what I'm talking about - There's a bunch of reading and information. There's several different routines, and none of them are really impossible if you have access to a gym. I just bought a Total Gym a few weeks ago. Its an awsome machine. Far more challenging than it seems. Its not as good as the Men's Health routines I linked to, but if you're creative, you can incorporate the stuff into it. Keep in mind that most personal trainers in health clubs have nothing more than a weekend certification course. I actually took one. It was the biggest joke. They didn't teach anything about putting a program together, proper technique, etc. They only taught anatomy. That's not to say there aren't any who know their stuff. Chrisopher Molloy is a personal trainer, and after talking to him about it I'm pretty sure he's the real deal. The most respected credential for a strength coach is C.S.C.S. That certification requires a minimum of a Bachelor's degree in a related field, and a rigorous exam. But that in and of itself isn't the be all, end all either. I could go on for a very long time, but I'll stop here. Now back to those stereos... |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 772 Registered: Dec-06 | one thousand dollars, fishy. Put your money where your mouth is.....anytime. Bring whatever jap bike you want, give your thousand dollars to a 3rd party, and give it a go. and you're bullshittin about the Ducati too. That's the way you are. Draw a conclusion then go find evidence to support it.....it's ok, borrow someone elses...I don't care. Put up or shut up, fishy. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 405 Registered: Apr-08 | You're pathetic! Unlike you, i wasn't making ridiculous claims. You might find that I can kick your butt. But I'm not a gambler at all, I only make bets when I already am sure about the outcome. You could be amazingly fast, but you'd still be pathetic. Please tell me you have an Aprilia or Cagiva or something. I don't want people thinking that all Ducati owners are jerkoffs. Literally, people like you are the reason I don't mention the Monster. Hawk GTs are almost universally owned by really cool people, aside from the fact that few people know what they are. Ducatis? Not so much. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1313 Registered: May-06 | Nick, Just to piggy back on Stu's post, working the core is essential to everything else. I also prefer dumbbells to bars as it exacts more stabilization. Doing weight exercises standing on one leg or on Bosu balance ball or a stability ball provide excellent results as well. Do you have a pic of your bike stryvn? Lunatic Fringe - Red Rider on the tuner! No seriously I do not mean stryvn, it's really on 92.5 right now... |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1590 Registered: Jun-07 | lol u guys arguing about bikes now?lol can't help anyone on that one. Stu- thanks for the post man, that helps huge. Athletic Therapist makes sense man, sorry for the misconception. Yes back to those stereo's....but how the hell did we get onto Bikes? I thought Japanese engineering had American engineering smoked?lol Or is Harley Italian? phack that I know. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1591 Registered: Jun-07 | Thanks MW. I am in good shape, just want to throw on some quick weight. Muscle that is. When I was picked for team ontario, and then team Canada. We had personal trainers and Athletic Therapists that put us through the loops and took good care of us. But once you stop, all that work to put the weight on drops faster than an eye blink.lol But oh well...back to audio.lol. I got a bike, its red, has gears, and it peddles. I don't even wear a helmet when I drive it *how dare me* |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2969 Registered: Sep-04 | Hey Nick, watch out mate, I tripped on a 1" hose last September and slammed onto my knee. 230lb landing on one knee a mess doth make. Didn't break, but loads of soft tissue damage. Haven't been back on the bike yet, but hope to do so in the summer...if we get one... |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1213 Registered: Apr-06 | I've just started riding a bicycle again after a ~10 year hiatus. Its funny how quick you pick it back up, its like riding a bike. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1595 Registered: Jun-07 | Ouch Frank- that would hurt like heck man. LOL Stephen- it was my first time in a while as well. I hope to get into it more often once we move this weekend. To All- I need some quick tips on how to make a very 'HARD' room soft. What I mean is, I have a feeling my new audio room is going to need some tender care to tame down the hard floor and walls. Also, I can just lay my MA RS6's with the spikes on the tile, should I put something under them, or just take the spikes off? Ideas would be awesome. Thanks guys. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 406 Registered: Apr-08 | Heck, i tore up my elbows pretty badly saving my face from concrete after getting my shoelace caught on a sprinkler. I should have sued myself over that one. It was either that or a broken nose (at least). Nick, usual stuff - nice thick throw rug, overstuffed fabric furniture, big fabric pillows, absorbent foam at first reflection points. Tile is tough. I usually take the spikes off and shim if necessary, so at least i can slide the speaker around. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2795 Registered: May-05 | Nick, I've got a trick for using spikes. I just tried to describe what I did, but it was long and a mess. Its very simple. I posted pics here a while back but can't remember where (not in the system pics thread). It'll cost about $5. I'll take some pics within the next day or two. I've been meaning to take some new pics for the System Pics thread anyway, so its just more motivation. Not to back track, but if anyone's contemplating buying a Total Gym, order the cheapest one on their website or over the phone. They'll upgrade it to the most expensive one (without added cost) because that's the only one they make anymore. They won't tell you anything until it arrives with a sticker on the box saying 'You've been upgraded to the ??? model for free!' I think people are paying an extra several hundred bucks for nothing. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1596 Registered: Jun-07 | JA- Ouch, and thanks man. I got some rugs coming. I will post pics of the room once its set up so you guys can a better feel for it. Stu- Awesome man, can't wait to see the pics. I am tearing my whole system apart tonight. *Fun* Your trick my have something to do with setting them on something. I was thinking maybe wooden blocks of some kind, but that elevates the speakers off the floor even more and would think that would make it brighter yet. But I could be completely wrong about that as I have never tried it, nor really read up on it. I look forward to the pics. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2796 Registered: May-05 | In a nutshell, I put adhesive felt pads under thin granite blocks. The speakers and spikes sit on those. The speakers sit about an inch or so higher than they would without them. Rubber feet on just about every speaker I've heard sucks. Spikes tighten up the mids and lows; cutting the flab so to speak. There are technical and scientific reasons/theories why, but I can't explain them correctly. Your tweeters should be ear level when you're sitting. You can adjust this by tipping the back of the speaker up with the leveling spikes. Not difficult to do. Easy to overdo though. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1597 Registered: Jun-07 | Awesome, thanks Stu. Yeah the spikes on the MA's are completely adjustable within about a 2.5 inch height. Putting the spikes on the pads/granite blocks sounds perfect. And will save my floor. Thanks man. Still want pics though. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1315 Registered: May-06 | Nick, one of my failed experiments was when I moved my audio rack with my equipment intact. It was on a carpet already and had spiked feet. I placed moving tiles (the ones with a hard shell plastic on the bottom and foam rubber on the top, about 1/4" thick, normally used for moving couches and the like) under each spiked leg with a wooden Jenga block, about 2" X 1/2" X 1/4" between each tile and spike. It made moving the rack quite simple. I then left the tiles and blocks there and played some music. It was too flat! However the Jenga blocks on a hard floor might work out, FWIW. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1598 Registered: Jun-07 | Thanks MW. What about setting the speakers on a perfectly flat, thin carved, cutting board? I guess trial and error will have to be the way to go.lol. I am excited I get to install my whole system in a proper, large room now. So much fun. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10296 Registered: Dec-04 | Have fun Nick, and look back from the last 6 mos of the posts. Lots of goodies. The room? Start with sofr furniture and play with WASP placement. Be sure, man. |
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Bronze Member Username: SnapcatPost Number: 57 Registered: Oct-07 | Stu, I like that spike idea. I've been using the rubber feet lately - we have tile in this room with a rug out in front of the speaker plane. I'm headed out for some kind of block/board/something now! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1952 Registered: Nov-05 | The other thing you could try is to place small coins under each spike - blue-tak them to the tiled floor, but drill a positioning groove into each coin for setting/stabilizing the spike. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10297 Registered: Dec-04 | For spikes on a hardwood board, you might check out the dollar store for some haknsak balls. Under the woody  |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1599 Registered: Jun-07 | Everyone with great ideas. M.R. Something like that came with the Isolation cones I got for the Apollo. I doubt my Apollo needs them in this new room due to the fact that nothing can really cause vibration in this room (concrete with tile laid) And I sure as heck don't need them for the blu ray player anymore. Done my man. Great Idea. But I am still going to play around with everyones idea. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2976 Registered: Sep-04 | For a cheapish solution, buy some sticky back felt, apply on both sides of 8 coins (2p in the UK, maybe dimes in the US?). Place speakers on top of appropriately placed coins. The felt incontact with the floor will crush and provide a level of grip. The felt on the top side will keep the spike in place so it doesn't move. If you don't use the felt, the vibration from the speakers will (not can, but will) shake the coins so the speakers will eventually rock, so you need the felt on both sides. Alternatively look at floor protectors but these tend to be expensive for what they are. People like Michell make them. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1602 Registered: Jun-07 | Awesome, thanks Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2801 Registered: May-05 | A picture is worth 1,000 words...   I just realized how dusty the floor is under the speakers. The granite strips are what I think is used on the edges of counters. The top (and bottom) surface isn't finished smooth. The spikes sit prefectly in little divots on the surface. The felt pads keep the unfinished bottom surface from scratching the floors. They also make moving the speakers very easy. They slide very easy if I push on both strips at the same time. They were far more sturdy when I had my PSB towers on them - 45 lb each. I haven't filled my stands yet, but if and when I do they'll be far sturdier. They sound so good right now, I don't want to mess with it |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2802 Registered: May-05 | A single square piece may or may not be better, depending on how level your floors are. A single piece rocked too much on my floor for them to be effective. Four seperate pieces would have been too small for me. The adhesive pads would have been either too big, or too small. Your results may vary... |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1603 Registered: Jun-07 | Stu- that looks awesome. I will try that out this weekend for sure. I can't wait to play in the new basement. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10301 Registered: Dec-04 | Stuie, I bet Mrs. Stu knew about the dust... Good look and thanks for the pix! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2812 Registered: May-05 | I'd think her being allergic to dust would keep her out. Hasn't worked out that way for some odd reason. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6966 Registered: Feb-05 | I know you've already said somewhere Stu but what stands are those? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2814 Registered: May-05 | Actually Art, I didn't. Apollo A3 stands. The seller included them in the sale. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6973 Registered: Feb-05 | Very nice. I saw them on the system pics thread. |
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