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Anonymous | In comparing 2 speaker companies (Klipsch and Polk Audio) I noticed that Klipsch uses the Klipschorn for the tweeter, what is the Klipschorn and how well does it make the speaker sound, are the Polk Audio LSi 15s in a totally different league then the Klipsch RF-7. |
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Cain Puki | I've auditioned them both...and for me it (Klipsch) sounds a little piercing and cold. I like the Polks because its warm and soothing. Both are not bad, though...it's a matter of preference. I'm auditioning the Axioms M50ti, who knows how i'm going to like it . We'll see |
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Anonymous | The Klipschorn is not a 'tweeter'. Horn technology in general is responsible for Klipsch's claim to fame as is their clear sound & wide-dynamic range. The Klipschorn, as it is usually referred to, is a complete speaker system. The actual "Klipschorn", technically speaking, is the bass section of the speaker which is basically a bi-furcated, multi-impedence, folded trihedral wave transmission line. IE: a folded corner horn. It uses the corner wall/floor intersection and their surfaces as a continuation of the bass horn 'walls' to substantially increase the effective size of horn so it can reach low frequencies (32Hz). Otherwise a horn type unit many times the size of the Klipschorn would have to be built in order to achieve the same performance. While it may not have much extension into the sub-bass region, and it's ultimate performance is also dependent on the room itself, it still stands as one of the great reproducers of all time. And in fact, is the only speaker that has been in continuous production for over 50 years! And still sells better than ever dispite an almost non-existent dealer network carrying this product. The other thing to remember is that Klipsch speakers in general are capable of wider dynamic range than most other speakers, especially those like Bose & Polk. Klipsch's primary objective is low distortion. With this combination (wide dynamic range & low distortion) people tend to turn them up louder than is necessary because it still sounds nice & clear. Then the louder parts come along & it's too loud as the room acoustically overloads because the reverberation time is now so long at the higher sound levels. |
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elitefan | The above poster is correct about Klipsch and their history etc. but not about their dealer network. Everybody and their brother is selling Klipsch these days including Best Buy. I find the newer Klipsch models to be very, very bright so if anyone buys them they need a very laid back amp to drive them. [H/K, Elite, Marantz]. My local dealer sells Klipsch and Elite, Denon and SonyES and believe it or not in their main theatre room pairs the Klipsch with the SonyEs and it sounds really awful. They acknowledge that the Elite sounds much better but people tend to buy by the name and Sony has done such a good marketing job that lots of people don't want anyhting else. My other dealer who sells Monitors and Marantz keeps SonyEs also and tells me that people come in to his store and won't even listen to the Marantz even thought he tells them that Marantz is way better. What a shame. Anyway, Klipsch are ok but buy a mellow amp/receiver. |
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Twisted Crank | I believe you missed the point of the posted message on Nov. 4 by Anonymous, he means not alot of dealers carry the Herritage line, Klipschorn model! It is a specific model, not the whole Klipsch line-up! It doesn't matter anyhow because it is in a different league than the speakers orriganally talked about; 1st these guys aren't talking about 52" tall 175 lb speakers, 2nd they probably are both out of there budget and space limitations for propper enjoyment, 3rd from there own conversation it is obvious that there audiophilly experience is limited! So what! There are alot of people who like Bose accoustacrap also, myself I love my K-horns and and Velodyne HGS-18's! I sleep well at night knowing that not to many people are going to tote them out of the house over their shoulder and I would really like to see a polk system that someone thinks can keep up! |
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Al Holland | After owning many brands of speakers I got the bug to buy Klipsch. I was skeptical because each time I listend to them in recent years they were always demoed with Denon receivers and did sound very thin and somewhat bright. Since I have owned Denons and they sounded about the same on all speakers I used with them I decided that it must be the electronics that contribute so much to the final sound of Klipsch. I ended up with Klipsch RF35, RC35 and RS35. I use Rotel 1066/Sherbourne 5/1500A electronics with Super Cube 1 sub. This system is definitely not bright as so many claim Klipsch to be. I now hear so much detail and clarity that I never heard before. These speakers remain clear and uncompressed at louder volumes. Contrary to all that I have read they also sound as good with music as with movies. As they say, you either love or hate Klipsch. This could also be said about most all gear. Mate them with the proper electronics and you may love them also. Anonymous, I have a pair of Polk RT28I's that I really like. They can hold their own with my Paradigm Monitor 11's. But to your question. I would not say that Polk and Klipsch are not in the same league, they just do not sound the same. I believe that you would enjoy the Polks if you do not like Klipsch. Polk is an excellent speaker. Listen and decide for yourself because sound is so subjective. Enjoy. |
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DenonFan | It is amazing how perceptions last. I have Klipsch rf-15's (rs-25, rc-25, and a rw-10) hooked up to a denon 2803 (all purchased within the last 2 months). IT is not bright. I listen to a wide range of music for hours without so called fatigue from a dry or bright sound. It is possible that the previous versions of this speaker and reciever were very bright. The Klipsch RF series (15,25, and 35) are new this year. You cannot say that they are the same as last years series or the the previous series. I listened to both the previous version and the current and did find a signifigant difference. As well Klipsch Reference series are not sold every where. Klipsch Multimedia series is sold almost everywhere. Klipschorns' or the Heritage series is a custom order placed through an authorized dealer. There is just so much crap being posted on bright dry don't match this receiver with this speaker etc. SO FAR no one ahas answered what a dry sound is or described in any adequate detail what bright really is and why it might not be good - Hawk, Elitefan, Miguel, John A. Johnny, A. Nonymous any takers?. I believe that is room dynamics that is the major component of whether your systems rocks or sucks. If the room where you are placing the system in,. is bare ( wood floors white walls no windows or curtains, minimal furniture, then any setup will be hard to listen to. If the room is carpeted with wallpaper or texture paint has large furniture windows with heavy curtains etc then any set up will sound duller than in the store and you may need to crank it more to hear it. As Al Holand said "Listen and decide for yourself because sound is so subjective." |
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Twisted crank a.k.a. Roger | I am not saying that Klipsch doesn't make speakers in the same league as Polk Audio. To the contrary, RF-3's, RF-35's,RF-5's, RF-7's etc. are aimed squarely at the same market! What I am saying is that; 1) Polk Audio makes nothing in thier line-up that is in the same league as my 52" tall, 175 lb, $7000.00 a pair new speakers. 2) Every speaker in the Klipsch line-up has a horn, but their is only one model that Klipsch makes that is "the specific model refered to as KLIPSCHORN" 3) Polk Audio makes nothing that can compair to 104 db at 1 watt per 1 meter of sensitivity or maximum accoustic output of 121 db! 4) Polk makes nothing with the vissual impact of my K-Horns. I doubt their is a Polk owner out there that had someone come over to their house and upon first sight of their speakers exclaim "Jesus Christ","what are those". No, the upper levels of Polk don't compair with the upper level of Klipsch. I say upper levels because we haven't even touched on the proffesional theater level of speakers that Klipsch has to offer! I am sure that their is some YO-YO out their who has a cousins' friends' sister who owned a pair they heard once who will differ with my oppinion but until you have heard both in a side by side comparrison, it is redundant! In addition of the few dealers who stock this $7000.00 a pair model; A) How many have the floor-space to stretch the legs on a pair, without accoustically overloading the room? and B) How many of those will push a speaker in this price range for just anyone who wants to hear what it is capable of? I have a dedicated 30 foot by 32 foot audio visual room and would challenge anyone who differs to pack up thei Polks and come to northwest Ohio, and we'll plug them into the same wall recepticals, and audition them, side by side! I promise it will be both enlightening and embarising for you. |
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Twisted Crank | Dear Denon Fan, although maby not in your area, some dealers do carry Heritage series and Klipschorns in stock still, although few and far between for obvious reasons, ie. The buying public in general wants surround sound and this puts a limitation on the amount of individuals who A) Have the room in their homes for such a system. B) Have enough digits in their positive cash flow to afford a system with 5 to 7 speakers in this price range plus subwoofers and electronics, I have over $3000.00 in my interconnects and speaker wire alone. and C) Most people in this price bracket are more interested in asthetics, ie. how a room looks, rather than in actual sound reproduction. They would rather not even see the speakers as long as it sounds "good" to them! That along with a factor of John Q. Publics inherant stupidity and good marketing strategies explain the popularity of Bose Accoustacrap! Clearly what the general public considers "good" would be unacceptable to the true audiophily. My younger brother runs a top of the line Dennon and I personally believe their best stuff is as good as anything anyone out there has without going to separates. |
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DenonFan | Twisted C, I have the reference series. I do not have the room for Klipschorns, but I am planning on getting some La Scalla's or heresy's in a year or two. I really do not think that any one on this board has really heard Klipsch speakers of any variety and are going on what others have heard about them without auditioning them. Just like most people think Bose is good. Actually getting tired of reading Denon is bright Klipsch are Bright, NAD is the best NHT are the best etc. No real discussion of audio equipment or explaination of terms ( Bright Dry mellow laid back etc). Still no takers on this (Hawk, Elitefan, John A.) Too bad because I think these guys could really add a different dimension to the discussions. |
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Al Holland | DenonFan, I will not begin to try and explain how to describe bright, dry, sterile or other descriptions used in describing sounds. I can only say that some systems are fatigueing to me whereas I can listen to others at any sane volume for hours. I will call the sound thin or lacking in mid to lower bass. As an example, I have a friend with B&K electronics, B&W 801's and the complete complement of B&W center and surrounds. This is in a dedicated theater (about $100,000). I can not listen at louder volumes for more than about 20 minutes without it bothering me. I do believe that it is possible that not all receivers sound good with all speakers. Just my opinion but we both agree that sound is subjective. |
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Twisted Crank | Denon Fan, I had afriend when I just got out of Highschool who had a set of Lascala's and a set of Heresy's. When kids came along, he sold his Lascala's and his (at the time top of the line) Yamaha receiver, but you couldn't pry his hands away from the Heresy's! They really are a sweet litle speaker! Anyhow that was my initiation into Klipsch. The Lascala's and Yamaha went to a second friend who later mated them with a pair of Klipschorns, a Klipsch Accadamycenter channel and Adcom surround separates. He doesn't have a sub and the fronts and mains really overkill the center on surround. He has this in a small 2 bedroom ranch in a room about 15' by 20' and it doesn't soud all that well on surround (accoustic overload), but honestly he plays the big 4 so loud on stereo that the guy has to go out a couple times a year and bang the long nails that hold his rain gutters back into the house! My wifes brother is building a 1500+ sq. ft. addition to his house, with a dedicated A/V room. We are wiring it for 7 channel but his present system is 5 channel. He has K-horns for across the front and an old set of Altec Lansing studio monitor 19's for surrounds. Myself, I have owned Quartets, Quintets and Klipschorns. As far as bright sounding; just as everyones nose on their face is different, so are there outer ear, the shape, length, angle of entry and diameter. Varriation in size and thickness of the timpanic membrain. Variation in the so nicknamed "hammer","anvill", and "styrup/stapies" bones. Differences in the Cochlea of the inner ear and it's cillia. Anyone can see that with different a Intelligence Quotiant and differant backgrounds in upbringing, we train different parts of our brains differently and build new neural pathways. How could anyone possibly think that any two of us can see or hear the same as another, but just as we have been conditioned that our own personal interpretation of a pigment is red, so have we been conditioned that our "interpretation" of a symbol or snair drum is the same resonance that someone else hears and identifies as a symbol or snair drum, so we must be "hearing" the same thing. Not so! We have been conditioned to the eperience! Why do some like red and some like blue, this is because of individual interpretation. Moreover, when I was younger and my mother would drag me along to go shopping, I couldn't stand to go to K-Mart or the like because I could hear from 50 or 60 feet away a soud that sounded to me like grains of sand falling into my ear cannal and landing on my ear drum any time I was arround cheap electronics, T.V., Stereo, etc. it didn't matter, and nobody else in my family could hear it! I have met others who could. "Bright", I take to be a greater emphasis on the midrange and highs. I can pick up many sounds in my klipschorns that are subtle background in the orriginal source material that I cannot discerne with other speakers. I personally believe this crispness which I personally enjoy is what to others would be termed as "bright". Some use base, midrange, and treble controls as well as equallization to color the sound. Every speaker system made colors the sound to some degree or another. Myself, I like my sound flat, ie. as close to orriginal source material as possible. I believe that most people subconciously like the way a certain brand of speaker interprates in their mind, but would truely be amazed at clarity issues in a low to mid volume side by side comparison! On a differant note, differances in different brands of electronics. I hav a Sony ES 777 reciever with Klipsch Quintets for my bedroom. Now the 777 was $1600.00 and sony's top receiver in 2000, the only thing in their line-up better was separates. Back in 1980 I bought a Nakamichi TA-4A stereo reciever for $1250.00. I have listened to both in stereo format through Klipschorns and Quartets and have to state for the record that the amplifier in the 20+ year old reciever sounds alot better to me! That aside I believe that a person should spend approx. 80 to 95% of their audio budget on their speakers and 5 to 20% (dependant on size of budget) on electronics because A) electronics outdate themselves so quikly and B) This is a closer representation of the ratio of distortion in a reproduction system per dollar ratio to electronics distortion per dollar. As an example this cristmas I bought my mother 4 used Klipsch KSF 10.5 tower speakers, a Klipsch RF3-II center channel new in the box, a used Velodyne HGS-10 with the optional clear case and remote, a $400.00 Pioneer receiver and a $200.00 Pioneer single DVD. Now I believe this system will sound vastly improved over a sytem costing the same had I gone with Denons best reciever and DVD and bought what I could for speakers with what I had left! I am climbing off the soap box now, I enjoyed your responce and would like to hear your thoughts. Thanks, Roger |
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DenonFan | Al and Twisted C. You have both put into words what I have thought and had hoped someone would respond with. I too do not know what bright or dry is but would also descibe sounds as thin -lacking in bass or muddy - way too much bass. I bought the klipsch for exaclty the reasons you have described - the clarity. As for the denon, I do not have that much experience with a lot of brands. (Hitachi and JVC) I like my Hitachi integrated amp with my KEF speakers. I did not like my KEF speakers with the JVC receiver, too mellow but this was due to a dead crossover capacitor that ruined the tweeters (sinced repaired and replaced). The KEFs still sound nice but not as good as the Klipsch (age and size). I find that some forums are filled with cognescenti (audio snobs) and talk about 10,000$ tone arms tube amps and 50$ an inch cables. Stuff that I do not care about. Or boards that discuss a single brand (like the Klipsch board) or run by some audio magazine that has an agenda to push their sponsors products. When I started with this board I was hoping to read some good dialogues on the merits of certain equipment set ups. What I found was a few guys who had some good knowledge but focused on the electronics and not the whole set up. This could be in response to people looking for info. Look at the difference in the posts between speakers and receivers. The post by Jacko about the NAD lovers got more responses that some really good questions. I had actually made up my mind to get Klipsch speakers before I found this board. It was only after reading all the non positive remarks about Klipsch that I went back an demo'd them again. I DID NOT MAKE A MISTAKE. I have written several post stating that the Klipsch speakers were the only ones to make me go WOW - with a denon receiver. It is very funny to read everyone who says Klipsch are bright probably have never really heard them. I do not think electronics outdate themselves, it is just that features that were only available in the 1500$ plus range are now coming into the sub 1000$ range. Do you really need THX for DVD movies that were made years ago without THX encoding? Or if you are listening to CD made 10 years ago do you need a DVD-A or SACD player? In fact downloading music in MP3 format (from itunes KaZaA etc) contains less digital information that it almost makes it unnecessary to get a high end CD/dvd player . This has been one of the more interesting threads. |
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Twisted Crank | Dear Denon Fan, All good valid points. Some food for thought, one theme that has always puzzled me. Why would someone pay the money for a full set of top of the line Martin Logan's, or Revel set-up and $1500.00, $2,000.00, or more per very short run of the newest magic Bi-wire settup and place them in a livingroom, great room, etc.. Have they spent so much that they cannot afford to build on a dedicated room, or are they so simple minded as to not realize that they will never hear the potential within with shitty accoustics, and could have better sound with less and propper accoustics. On another note, I don't know if you are planning to buy new or used when you decide to change to a heritage line speaker system, but if it is the latter, I will give you some food for thought. 1st Klipschorns and Belle Klipsch and heresey's changed from wood laminate over 10 ply, plywood to wood laminate over medium density fiberboard in 1985. 2nd if you are going to buy used, save the extra for the Klipschorns over the Lascala's. Nice versions of Lascala's are hard to come by as that they are portable and most have been drug arround for parties or for some clowns backyard band. The Klipchorn's are heavy enough and awkward enough to move, that they generally stay put, and therefore usuall haven't been abused as much! Another consideration is that while the Lascala's sound tremendous, the bi-folded horn is a heck of a dust magnet back in at the sides where it is easy to see, but a real pain to routinely get back into to clean! On another note; you are right, some electronics do not outdate themselves that much. A perfect example would be a set of Carver Silver 9t Mono block amplifiers. In case you might not be familliar with these units they are a single channel amplifier for each speaker that puts out 585 watts rms per each unit and at better than a deccade old still bring close to what they cost new if you can find a set and we wont even talk about the silver 7 tube amp, 7 of these units for surround would run more than Al Holland's friends theater! But at the same instance, look at the Klipschorn, it has gone from single channel reproduction of radio, to vinyl, to 8-track, to reel to reel, to cassette, to compact disk and beyond, and hasn't changed much. In this way I state that electronics do outdate themselves. If you find speakers you are truely happy with and care for, you will change electronics several times over the course of the speakers lifetime. Also, for the record, listen to some budget electronics. A receiver in the $300.00 to $500.00 range. I state emphatically that you will hear a much vaster differance between a $1600.00 set of Bose 901 speakers and a $3000.00 set of Lascala's than you will listening to the Lascala's hookedup to a $500.00 receiver vs. the Lascala's hooked up to $4000.00 separates. My point is that audio nirvana on a budget, lies in the speakers not the electronics. If funds are unlimited buy it all, but start with speakers. I'm 39 and I'm guessing you are younger, buy the Klipschorns, even if used, you'll achieve the room needed as your earning potential peaks. Later, Roger |
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DenonFan | Roger, I am 45. I first heard Klipschorns in the late 60's when my dad was building stereo cabinets (furniture) the large all in one receiver turntable and speakers . An audiophile friend of his knew he was a cabinet maker and asked him to make a cabinet . He was curious about the specs and found out that they wanted to put a hi-fi into it. he said he would do it if he could get the hi fi equipment for one for himself. He started making several cabinets as he had a few orders . His friend had the Klipschorns. Amazing sound. Since that time every time speakers ar mentionned he refers to those Klipsch. I agree with your statements about a system on a budget and about the nirvana is in the speakers. This was true back then and is still true. About the use of plywood vs MDF. Sonically MDF is better as the density is consistant throughout while plywood will vary depending on the grade of the laminates used and the application/consistancy/amount of the glue. Plywood was considered a better choice as these four components can be controlled better than using solid wood. MDF is a step beyond plywood as it can be totally controlled in manufacture. Each piece will be identical (short of a manufacturing problem) and that every speaker would/should sound identical. Later, Norm aka DenonFan. |
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Twisted Crank | Norm, nice to talk with someone who has been arround long enough to remember this stuff when it was on the shelf. I am presently thinking about upgrading my amplifier. I know my Klipschorns are only rated at 100 RMS and 400 peak but I like the idea of excessive headroom to the point of overkill, an amplifier definately has to be fairly major to even think about hitting 400 peak and the speakers are fuse protected. Believe me I keep plenty of extras on hand, but I wish they still made the 1.25 amp fuse as that my oldest pair are 1998's, although I have only blown the 2.5 amp fuses so far. Anyhow I like the Sunfire Cinema Seven Signature Edition Amplifier, but something nostalgic in me wants to buy a full brace of Carver Silver 9T's. I can remember going to the audio store and wishing when I was a kid. Anyhow I don't have to change amps immediately and have been watching "Carver Amp" on E-bay religiously. I've seen 2 sets go in the $1500.00-$2000.00 a set price range. Do you remember these little tanks? I have the space built into my wall to run the separates. Any thoughts, should I give into temptation and run the separates? My only other change I am contemplating is packing up 1 of my 2 Velodyne HGS-18's and taking a 3.5 hour trip over to Yougstown, Ohio, Funny, I grew up in that area. I want to compair the sound of SVS's B4PLUS model with the Velodyne. SVS says they have recorded a maximum accoustic output of 131 db in an open field with this model, are you familliar with it? If not, look it up on the web and let me know your thoughts. Hey you never responded to my quandry about these multy mega systems in bad rooms, I want to here your thoughts on this! Have you visited the AudioReview website and viewed the galliery of pictures on peoples systems and discussion forum? It is an interesting site. Well, good talking with you, and let me know more about your system and long term goals with it. I have to go eat bad Turkey at the outlaws. Later, Roger |
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Hawk | DenonFan: Obviously, you are looking for someone to take the bait, but I would merely suggest that for those of us who have listened to a lot of different equipment, we hear differences in the sound and use subjective language to describe those differences as audio engineers have never come up with measurements that would allow those differences to be accurately measured. Therefore, since we cannot give numbers to describe the difference, we must use more subjective language to describe such differences. Some differences are good, some are bad, but most merely need to be accounted for when assembling a system. Since you have challenged some of us to tell you what the various terms mean, I suggest you check out the Audio Glossary found here: http://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html This is the best source I know and perhaps you will understand that we are not "dumping" on your system! I have never described a Denon receiver as "bright" (but Yamahas and Kenwoods are defintely brighter sounding than most of the other comparable products). I have described my 3803 as "dry" and "artificial" sounding, but never bright. NAD receivers, however, have a sound very different from my Denon and that sound is both warmer and smoother to me. Likewise, in speakers, I have suggested that Klipsch are bright sounding, but I have never criticized this brightness as it also brings a lot of detail. I have merely said that a bright speaker such as Klipsch (or JMlabs, Mirage, etc.) should be mated with the proper electronics. Therefore, I would never put them together with a Yamaha, Kenwood or a JVC. I think they sound better with a H/K. Pioneer Elite, or even a McIntosh receiver, all of which have a laid back, relaxed sound that minimizes the brightness and allows the excellent detail of the speakers to shine through. You seem to be a bit touchy about anything said which you take as a criticism of equipment you like when in fact it is meant to express a concern that certain equipment does not match well with certain other equipment. The first great stereo system I ever heard was when I was in high school about 30 years ago. My best friend's father had a full McIntosh system (pre-amp, dual amps and tuner) with a Dual turntable and with four floorstanding corner Klipschorns so that he could enjoy his opera recordings (he had several hundred). Since his job had him on the road a lot, my friend and I used it often to listen to more contemporary (head-banging) music. I remember that system well as it had an accuracy and realism that was quite extraordinary--so much better than I had ever heard before. It was also well matched--something I didn't figure out for another ten years. I have since learned that the quality of a system comes from matching the indivudual components as they may have a synergy or they can fight each other so that the system is less than the sum of the parts. So, don't take any comments as a criticism as much as a factor that needs to be acounted for when assembling a system. |
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DenonFan | Hawk, Good of you to weigh in. I was not taking the comments so much as a criticism. What I was about was the automatic gainsaying that this speaker was this or this receiver was that without any kind of reasoning or explaination why. The url you graciously provided was very informative. I just wanted to get a discusion going (yeah I was trolling). Whether any else here likes or dislikes cetain receivers/speakers they should at least say that they sat down and seriously listened to them. I can't say that I have listened to a lot of receivers or separates. There is a group here that think (fill in the blank) should be avoided. All I wanted to know is this from experience, or a 5 minute demo in a Best Buy? I do not profess to be a true audiophile nor do I aspire to be. I would rather enjoy listening to the music rather than the equipment. I also think that not enough detail and attention is paid to the environment that you place your audio equipment in. Twisted Crank has hit it on the head when he mentions mega systems in bad rooms. As I previously written, when my Dad was making these hi-fi cabinets, the room they were to be placed in was discussed at great length. As well as how the room effect/affects the sound. I agree with you, to a degree, about matching individual components in that you need to define your requirements (movie/music ratio) type of music, media (cd, dvd, vinyl) but you can match perfectly all your components only to pooch the whole thing by putting them in an inappropriate setting i.e Klipschorn in a 10 by 8 room wirth hardwood floors and a low ceiling and lots of windows. |
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DenonFan | Roger, The only thing I can say about multi mega systems in bad rooms is - more money than brains! I have heard some phenomenal equipment in an acoustically great room and the same equipment in a dreadful room. I have heard cheap stereos that sounded amazing because the room was acoustically good. I posted earlier my dad built a hifi cabinet for himself . My uncle saw it heard it and wanted one for himself. My dad built a cabinet for my uncle and used same components. His living room was much larger than ours. Our sytem sounded good I remember my uncle complaining that his sounded like crap. It wasn't the hi fi it was the room and the placement of the unit. On the topic of carver amps you should look at this site: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/masterindex_amplifiers.html I would probably lean to the Sunfire for several reasons. It has the power you are looking for. it can drive 7 channels, Takes up less space than 7 Carver silver 9t, less energy/heat, and $$$ Yoy should check out the audio asylem forum www.audioasylum.com Happy turkeydat - Norm |
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DenonFan | Roger Check this article out about room frequencies http://www.roger-russell.com/room.htm I found it after reading the post on speaker wires too big. |
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elitefan | I can and will say that the Denon 3803 is very bright. I can't imagine anyone using this receiver with the newer Klipsch models. I find Klipsch models except the K.Horn, Hersey and Lascala to be very harsh and a terrible match with Denon. Only thing I have heard matched worse is Klipsch with Sonyes. Awful! Klipsch really need to be paired with a much mellower receiver than Denon to sound ok to my ears. |
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Al Holland | DenonFan, What experience do you have with listening to the Sunfire amps? |
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DenonFan | Al, None. I have heard carver (Phase Linear) amps around 1980. A friend had a Phase Linear 200b with Electrostatic speakers (can't remember the name). I have looked at them at the time as I was getting a "sound system" unfortunately I had champagne taste but a beer budget. Due to my work (too much travel and not enough money) I never set up a separates system. Given todays HT emphasis, I did not look at separates when I purchased my Denon. I have only started to research separates again based on what TC asked. I did not think that a single amp could drive 5+ channels, as all the snob audio magazines always talk about monoblock tube amps (one for each channel/speaker). Check out this article on the sunfire http://www.vxm.com/21R.69.html |
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| I am a newbie to the speaker world, am looking for some advice on deciding between Klipsch and Boston's. I was planning on either Rf25/35 or Boston's vr1. My buget is limited to 2K, so wondering if folks on this board have a particular liking to either of these brands. I know that finally I have to pick the ones, I like the most, but I would like your opinion on the brands I dont have a lot of technical knowledge(on speakers). From whatever little jargon I picked-up from you guys both of the speakers sound bright( I have to confess I like bright but not obscenely bright, though). Also, would you suggest a third maker that I should audition before making any decisions. Also, any good places to buy speakers. I was introduced to Klipsch in Good guys but wondering if you suggest any good sites to buy them from. Thanks, Sandeep |
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Alford Holland | Sandeep, since you asked I will give an opinion. I do not wish to be redundant but listen to all possible brands and combinations of equipment and then purchase what sounds right for you. I have owned VR's and they are not bad but I would prefer either Klipsch that you mentioned. The third choice would be Paradigm Monitor 11's. I prefer them to the rest of the Paradigm line and I have found only a few other brands at 2 to 3 times their price that are as good or better. You did not mention electronics, however, they will ultimately contribute immensly to the sound, |
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Twisted Crank | Dear Norm/Denon Fan, Sorry it took so long to get back! I checked out the sites you listed and can honestly say I understood about 90% of it all. Very interesting reading! I am glad to have read everything Bob Carver had to say about the Sunfire! I wish that he had addressed the Silver 7, Silver 9's, but it was informative enough to decide to probably go with his Sunfire. I was wanting to check out the 7(t),9(t) [t=tube, meaning the amp has tubelike sound characteristics] and was especially interested in reading about both the high amperage and the high voltage outputs, an the implications there-of. This couldn't have come at a better time as their are 2 Carver Silver 7t's up on Ebay right now under Carver Amp, that I was salivating over! I still may get a set to try out afterwards, there shouldn't be any problem with reselling them. What ever happened to your dads and unkles old speakers? Were they kept in the family? Got any old photo's or drawings? I would make one observation about the room resonance sight, although I see what they are getting at in finding holes at certain frequencies, and it is a repeatable, demonstratable fact, the waters are somewhat muddied by the fact that A) They are moving the micophone away from the speaker in a lateral direction; this will change the amount and frequencies of the holes by the make-up of the speaker, ie. horn midrang vs cone, size of cone vs angle of horn throat, offset midrange driver as with some speakers, etc., etc., etc. To many variables! B) Speakers, in the ideal room, regardless of brand or type, should optimally be placed in the corners and angled to a mutual crossing intersection within the middle of the room, for optimal stereo imaging! I have several directly related articals from PWK's Dope from Hope that are very interesting reading. I very much enjoyed the sites you mentioned as that it always pays to look at as many informative articles as you can and cross reference ponts and ideas to come up with more thorough insight. Thanks, Roger |
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DenonFan | TC No pictures unfortunately. At least none that I can remember, will have to ask Dad. My uncle passed on about 10 years ago. The speakers were built into the cabinets at slight angles. All I can remember about the speakers were that they were very large woofers with a smaller ( possibly tweeters) speakers above and a bunch of wires and bits ot electronics (probably the crossovers). The turntable was a Garrad. I can't remember what the reciever/amp was. I am surprised that you are still interested in the Silver 7's and 9's compared to the sunfire given what Bob says about them. My reading on them seems to show that they are somewhat compromised in their performance. But then I am not sophisticated enough to really understand everything that was written. As for room dynamics I agree with your observations about what they did to measure (moving the mic). My point was that we spend so much time in trying to get the right speakers/electronics/cables(!) etc that most people overlook the room itself. Let us know if you go for the Carvers Norm |
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DenonFan | Sandeep, I would go with what Al Holland posted. You really neeed to listen to as many combinations as possible to really understand what sounds good to you. The key is what sounds good to you. If you think a bose lifestyle system sounds great and you cannot discern a difference between that and a mega dollar system (i.e 10,000$ amp 10,000$ speakers 2,000$ dvd player etc) then get the bose (or whatever you think is good) and be happy. Do not let others tell you your choice is bad or you should have got this one instead. You are the one who ultimately must listen to it. And as for the Klipsch speakers - If you like them get them and do not worry about what anyone else thinks about them. |
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Twisted Crank | Sandeep, ultimately it is your perception that matters most. Read what I wrote about an individuals personal perspective up towards the top of all this. There is no way myself or anyone else can perceive things exactly as you!!! You are the one who needs to be pleased. Some advice though, think about your space; how much room do you have, especially for propper placement! Bigger is not always better, but can be also. Think about room clutter with placement, accoustics matter more than you might expect! Do you primarily want to listen to music or surround. If it is primarily music; spend the money on a better set of fronts! If surround is your goal the sensitivity has to match across the front, but your best money to spend on a budget here is in your center channel by far and then in a good Sub! You are the one who needs to be happy but understand this, listen to as many speakers that you can that fit your size requirenments of both space placement and cubic volume of the space (open doorways, room dividers, archways and bars do not totally sonically isolate the room! When listening to different speaker systems, manipulate base treble and midrange, if the speakers sound better with manipulation to you, they are not the ones you want! An excellent speaker should sound best set flat! This touches on Bose speakers as their model 901's aka the speakers that made the company come standard with an factory EQ. If they sound so great why then is such manipulation nessecairy? Can I get an Amen from Denon Fan and Al Holland? Once you have come up with several that you like flat, try to do direct comparrisons. You be the judge and to h_ll with what anyone else thinks because their are alot of experts that get their knowledge from what the salesman or a buddy told them, but they'll never admit to it! |
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Twisted Crank | Dear Denon Fan, I am planning on the Sunfire after reading this article. It sounds like everything I could want! Later I will try a set of the monoblocks for stereo, just because, and if I don't see an improvement I can difinitively say that I have owned and compaired! As you stated, cheaper than trying to complete a set of them, only to find out I liked the cheaper set-up! And don't troll with me! I like you! I enjoy talking with you! But not for a second do I believe that you are not sophisticated enough to understand the articles that you sent me to look at! I am tired of looking at misinformed kids that argue if JBL ever owned Altec Lansing, when they did not even exist on the plannet then, arguing that their system must be better and louder because they have more watts ( Duh, what is speaker sensitivity got to do with anything Bubba?), or some other unimportant,insignificantly trivial, uninformed conversation! You seem to know alot more than you let on, and I look forward to the mind stimulation! Let me know what you find out from your Dad, it would be a shame if they didn't get passed along to the one in the family who would probably cherish them the most, even if you just used them in a basement or something. Thank you for the discussion, Roger |
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DenonFan | TC, I am right there with you on your post to Sandeep. Room acoustics are one of the most overlooked dynamics. If it was not that important why do they build fancy concert halls? Wouldn't a hockey arena do just as well? Good on you for going with sunfire. I'd really like to know about your comparisons between the sunfire and the monoblocks. Since you got me started on this I am looking to see if there are any sunfires in local area that I can demo. As for power when I call Klipsch about how to get the heritage line (la sacalla/heresy/klipschorn et al) I also asked about the power need for them. Interestingly they leaned toward less power, but would not suggest anything more. Later , Norm |
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Twisted Crank | Denon Fan, Just because the Sunfire is capable of 400 watts RMS per channel doesn't mean I would try to push this through my speakers. I like to be able to run the amp so it isn't beig pushed and with this much wretched excess the amp shouldn't have any problem pushing a peak at the high end of the speakers capabilities. So mony people run 100 or 120 watts RMS amplifier to a 100 watt speaker and don't realize that when they are pushing the speaker to the max, alot of what they here in loss of clarity is the amp running out of headroom. Most think the change in sound quality is do to the speakers inability to track at this volume level when that just isn't nessecarily the case! Klipsch is obviously right in that this kind of brute power is unnessecary to push their speakers and they don't want some average guy to hurt his speakers but I regulate my imput signal into the larger amp, more on that later! Gotta go, Roger |
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Twisted Crank | Denon Fan, I had an item I was bidding on comming down on Ebay. I got it. My old Nakamichi TA4A reciever had a variable imput into its own amp as well as 2 sets of pre outs to run sepparates. I really loved that receiver! Anyhow, I had an AudioSource EQ "TEN", yhis isn't like the other AudioSource EQ's out there. The "TEN" has a microphone with pink noise capabilities, is the only EQ AudioSource ever made that has it's own remote (a very thorough one I might add), the sound shaper takes up about half of the front of the unit instead of a tiny little window, the unit is also capable of variable output level to the amp! I believe this unit was about $500.00 around 1989 when I got it. Anyhow, I decided to run these units in all channels. They have bypass if I want to take them out of the loop, but I don't color my signal anyhow. I want to adjust my various channel output levels in anticipation of the big amp and also watch the signal displays of the various channels. These units are also 12 band, not 10 and capable of full display for 1 or 2 channel! So far I have 3 model "ten" and 3 model "NINE" EQ's. The "NINE" is the same unit minus the remote capability and pinknoise capability. It all should be pretty neat when I get it all hooked up. Later,Roger |
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DenonFan | Would like to see a picture of all this when you get through. I haven't seen one of those in years. Always lusted after them just never had a real good reason to get one. Saw 2 one Ebay just now An EQ10 and a twelve. Later Norm |
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DenonFan | TC the power follows what Bob Carver wrote about in that article. I re-read it and now have a better understanding. I think what Klipsch was saying is that the speakers are very efficient so that huge amounts of power are not necessary to drive them as oppose to martin logans which I believe are hugely inefficient (great sound but needs loads of power). Does not look like there are dealers close to me. Will have to plan a trip. l8tr norm |
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Twisted Crank | Denon Fan, Look under the bids on the "TEN", I have watched that site nightly for the past 6 months to aquire the units I have, and was first bidder on this one to bookmark it. Two things I have learned about Ebay; 1) If you find something you want, bid minimum one time to book mark it, if you proxy bid to soon others will chip and chip to find your sealing and you'll pay alot more than you had to! 2) It pays for itself in money you save to have real dsl hookup in that last 15 seconds of an auction! What part of the country are you from? I live in northwest Ohio, but I'm planning to load up one of my Velodyne HGS-18's and make a 3.5 hour trip to Youngstown this next spring or summer to compair it to a SVS B4PLUS. Have you looked at one of these on their website? I spoke with them on the phone. They only sell by order direct, no distributers. They have an optional 2500 watt RMS amp for this model and said they have run as much as 5000 watts RMS through it without a problem! They said they measured output at 1 meter in an open field and recorded 131db! It has 4 long throw 12" push/pull subs built in! Should make for an interesting day! What other interests do you have other than Audio? I have 3 old mustangs, I used to street race alot, I have a Yamaha V-max which I am modifying over the winter, I snow ski, I go rapelling, I scuba, I have played paintball for over 15 years, I hand load, belong to a gun club, shoot High Power Rifle, and I was into karate for several years. I want to achieve all model "TEN"'s for all channels including both subwoofers prior to my sunfire purchase. The model "nines are fill ins if I can't achieve my goal and for spair parts thereafter, especially the displays as they seam to be the weak link and have been out of stock for 7 years according to AudioSource. I really am looking forward to trying the Sunfire, it will happen, but it takes a little time when you have to many toys. At least the wife wont complain how big the sunfire is. The SVS B4PLUS could be another story though, She already thinks the HGS-18's are to huge. I'll tell her its more security as they will be to big to steal, thats how I got my last gunsafe. Good accoustics to you, Roger |