Archive through April 29, 2008
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 109 Registered: Apr-08 | Francis, Jan's right in that, if you love the tone of your speakers, keep them and play with everything else. The thing is that there are always better speakers, but they will always have a different tone as well. If you can get clear in your mind the flavor of the speaker, well, electronics won't really change or fix that. Changing your electronics will make small real differences, but can often generate a big psychological reaction to them. And if that makes you enjoy the sound more, then it's all good. But if you want a *big* upgrade, that's the speakers. The hassle is just finding a set that you like more and that often takes time and lots of listening and even adapting to a new sound. Changing electronics is easy and safe because you'll get essentially the same sound with maybe a few small differences. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12528 Registered: May-04 | . That's just wrong and shows how little fishy knows. "The thing is that there are always better speakers, but they will always have a different tone as well." What did I tell you in the previous post, fj? You need to know the tonality and timbre of real instruments. That's your goal. Knowing how real things sound in a real space. Not the ever changing "tone" of "different" speakers. Speakers change "tone" when you move them across the room or to another room. They even change tone if you move in the room. That's what fishy is selling, that you can have a new sound every time you change your speakers. That's flat out crap! If you only want something "different" and not something "better", you go fishy's route for most of your hifi purchases. If you want more than just a pair of speakers (that will always sound like speakers) in your room, you need to find what's real to you, not just what's "different". You need to get your head around the idea of "transparency". Look it up; http://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html Transparency means your system doesn't sound like a bunch of boxes making sound. Instead it sounds like what you heard when you listened to live music. That's a big "difference" when you think about what fishy sells. fj, you need to learn how to distinguish what speakers have correct "timbre" and "tone" and which do not. If you can do that, you can easily hear which speakers are worth owning and which will just get you back to fishy's store for another pair. I suggest you begin with the midrange since we all have a fairly good idea what the human voice should sound like. You're not striving to get such and such a vocalist's voice "in your room" because the recording wil vary from this disc to the next. You are looking to get a recognizable voice in your room. Microphones flavor the sound and production values alter the sound. So you need a few "reference" recordings that present a clear tone that you accept as the human voice to use as your starting point. When I sold I always had a few recordings from artists I thought the majority of my clients would know. I kept Elvis, Frank Sinatra, Pavorotti, Patsy Cline, etc. These are voices us Old Dogs know from years and years of hearing the same voice on TV, radio, recordings and in person. The medium changed the "tone" slightly as did age but the "timbre" of Elvis' voice remained distinguishable. So, like a captain charting a course, you work with timbre and tone and get a recognizable voice. Once you have the middle, you start to work outward and find other instruments to hear in the same fashion. You learn a piano and which piano as you get better at this. And you learn how those voices and instruments sound in real space. It's tough and it's not quick. But it's the way to get a music system and not just a hifi. You need to know the "timbre" and the "tone" of a voice. Look up what those words mean. They are tied together but not the same. Your voice probably has a similar tone to your brother's. It has a different timbre which makes you identifiable as you. Think about those differences. Ask your mother what your voice sounds like. When you begin to get that value judgement fixed in your head, you can eliminate quite a few "speakers" from those few that get the midrange right. Get someone to stand next to your speakers and listen to how their voice sounds compared to your speakers reproducing a voice. If they sound very dissimilar, you might want to change the position of your speakers to see if you can bring the timbre and tone into line. Your speakers' high frequency issues might be nothing more than poor placement or too much reflective energy into the room. It's all part of the learning process of how to narrow down choices rather than simpy root around amongst the various pieces of fruit until you decide to buy "different" speakers. If you don't want to do that much work, then you can just hop on fishy's ever changing merry go 'round of speakers that sound "different". You can spend your money over and over on speakers and every few months or years you can go down to the audio store and buy something different. One time you may actually get something that comes close to sounding real - but you'll never know it. Stick with us, fj, and you'll get it right. . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 113 Registered: Apr-08 | "Stick with us, join the cult, validate us, don't listen to anyone else, leave your family and possessions, we know what is best for you........." Francis, here's a link to the measurements of your speakers - http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/jbl_l890/ As you can see, it's a bit on the boom/sizzle side, but does measure pretty well in distortion. But that's the flavor of speaker you have. It's good to see this things in black and white as it gives you a good idea what kind of flavor you have and what to look at if you want different or better in the future. If you like that sound, you might find that you can't get any better without spending silly amounts of money. Or you might find a speaker that has what you like, without the elevated, peaky treble. You can certainly stick within the same family - Revel speakers are someone similar to the JBLs in many ways as they come from the same company, but do have a flatter response. I'm going to guess you don't care for the sound of that horn |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 257 Registered: Jul-07 | Not that easy a speaker to drive. The 8 ohm rating seems misleading, at least to me. And I thought boom & sizzle was distortion ? Obviously I'm not keeping up. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12529 Registered: May-04 | . Let's consider the options. You're buying a component system to faithfully reproduce music in your home. You can learn to listen and hear what music sounds like played both live (real) and in your home (reproduced). Or, you can learn to look at graphs and charts and still not know a thing about how a speaker or component reproduces music. Virtually, every objective test devised for audio products tests the product without the use of music. Consider what that means to you when you are shown a graph and told this is what you will hear. If you were buying a camera, would you want to look at the specs of the camera or would you want to take a picture with the camera? Does the horsepower spec of a car tell you how it drives and handles? Does the type of grape on the label tell you how the wine inside the bottle will taste? In very broad terms, yes, in what really matters obviously not. If I ask this, "If you read the "Rules of the Road" handbook and learn to recognize the shape of the 'Yield' sign, will you be able to drive a car on the highway in traffic?", what would your answer be? You certainly get to decide how you want to go about this but even a simple on-axis frequency response chart tells you little about how that speaker will reproduce music. Consider the "T.H.D." spec mentioned. If you are prone to believe the disortion product of a speaker is as serious as the distortion product of an amplifier (then you should read the expanation of speaker distortion provided above), you might be frightened by the significant amounts of "T.H.D." shown in the test results. Read how the measurements are taken. To achieve a T.H.D. measurement, the speaker is driven at a relatively high constant output level with a series of discrete (50, 51, 52, 53Hz, etc.) sine waves or "tones". These are electronically generated "tones" that are one pure frequency at a time. In other words, when they test at 55Hz, 55Hz is the only frequency present. No harmonics and no overtones, just 55Hz. If the distortion measurement at 90dB output is not "high enough", they increase the output level in order to arrive at an "acceptable figure". They cheat! With few exceptions you do not listen to discrete, single frequency sine waves generated by electronic devices when you listen to music. Nor is the sine wave continuous and at a high level.* Consider for example, a 40Hz note played on a piano has as much as +12dB more energy at its second harmonic of 80Hz than at the fundamental of 40Hz. Telling you the distortion measurement at 40Hz doesn't provide any useful information about how a piano will sound when reproduced by this speaker. Music program material varies constantly. It has harmonics, overtones, rhythm, timing and dynamics among other qualities and, for our purposes here, almost always more than one "tone" being produced at the same time. The "test" does not. This doesn't make the test invalid but it makes the test results not representative of how you will use the speaker (or amplifier, or CD player or the particular tweak you are considering). The point of any music system is to connect you to the music. How that is done is a personal affair that relates to how you have learned to listen to music - not test tones. There is no specification for the main function of a speaker (or amplifier or CD player) which, as we've stated, is to connect you to the music and to hold your interest. (Believe me when I say you will quickly get very bored of single test tones.) If there is such a measurement, I would like fishy to show me where it exists. BTW, your speakers, according to those charts has a + or - 3dB deviation from flat response. That's really quite acceptable for most budget speakers and yet still tells you nothing about the sound of the speaker. There is nothing on those measurements which can tell you whether the timbre of Elvis' voice will convince you it's Elvis in your room. If there is, I'd like fishy to show me where that exists. Frequency response, like T.H.D., is derived by a series of single tones played in sequence. Additionally, the response shown has been taken in an anechoic chamber - a room without reinforcing or reflective walls, or you might say total absorption of everything that does not come directly from the drivers and enclosure. Sounds right? Not in the real world. It has so little to do with how that speaker can sound in a real room that it makes the test all but useless for anyone other than the designer who can then take more tests to determine what is happening with his design. Bottom line, pieces of paper tell you nothing about how the speaker or component will do its job - reproducing music in a satisfactory and convincing manner, simply holding your attention. To do that job well, a speaker needs to "not exist" allowing itself to be "transparent" to the music fed to it. Anything anyone else tells you is BS. Run away from them while protecting your wallet! *"Please note: an SPL level of 90dB measured anechoically is very loud and considered far beyond normal listening levels, particularly for small loudspeakers." http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/test_loudspeakers.htm Like the Wizard, learn to look behind the curtain when someone is trying to covince you they know something you don't. And, fishy, that's the proper use of an "*"! . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12531 Registered: May-04 | . fishy, I thought you were going to tell me about fourth order crossovers and why the information matters? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12532 Registered: May-04 | . fj - Take one more note on those measurements. The T.H.D. is sufficiently low in your speaker according to that test report. So low, in fact, they increased the output from 90dB to 95dB, 90dB already being quite loud as is noted. To achieve that amount of change in this speaker the voltage increase would be almost four times as high, say from 10 "watts" to 45 "watts". We are not comparing apples to apples in this case. One thing the test does not/cannot show you is the amount of back EMF (electromotive force) which is generated by the low frequency driver itself and fed back to the amplifier through the speaker cables to complete the amplifier/speaker circuit. This amount of EMF voltage is then put back through the amplifier by way of the solid state amplifier's negative feedback loop. Depending upon the amount of NFB used in the amplifier and the amount of back EMF present at the amplifier's NFB inputs, this "return voltage" from the driver's voice coil can actually cause the amplifier to become unstable and result in an increase in ... wait for it ... T.H.D. So are you testing the speaker or are you testing the amplifier driving the speaker? In reality you are testing both and a different amplifier might actually result in a different distortion number. The only thing this test verifies is that, assuming the same amplifier is always used for these tests, the amplifier should respond to all speakers identical in nature to your's in a similar fashion. Since your speaker's impedance and electrical phase angle are not identical to other speakers (none are), this will not apply in any case other than a speaker with identical voltage and current requirements - another speaker just like yours. There exists a highly variable condition with this test that is not discussed in the literature. A sort of grading on the curve, if you will, that doesn't make for a true test of only your speaker. One thing to remember about audio component "tests", they assume to test only one product while in any audio system, you cannot divorce one component (the amplifier) from the other (the speaker) when both are required for either to operate. Just keep that in mind when someone pulls out their spec sheets and tries to convince you the test results mean anything. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12533 Registered: May-04 | . "Or you might find a speaker that has what you like, without the elevated, peaky treble. You can certainly stick within the same family - Revel speakers are someone similar to the JBLs in many ways as they come from the same company, but do have a flatter response. I'm going to guess you don't care for the sound of that horn." LOL!!! |
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Silver Member Username: NoutPost Number: 112 Registered: Mar-06 | You have to replace the worst part of the system and that is and always will be the speakers. or the room. I think I'll agree on the last part: the room. Room acoustics in my opinion make the most difference. That is: it will bring the best or worst out of the system you own. I'm not certain about the other factors, whether the source is more important than the amp or speakers. I own two cd player, both Marantz players. One is a KI tweaked CD 6000 and the other a cheap CD 5000. The differences are very subtle..most of the time insignificant. But I have connected my iMac to my amp as well and the iMac as source is definitely inferior to both cd players. To me it proves that source matters, but I am not certain in which degree. But when I am listening to my iTunes library, with MP3's of really poor sample rate I no longer care about the inferior sound, my ears easily adjust to the sound and make the best of it...MP3's can sound pretty darn good! I wonder why I am responding to this thread. It appears "a pleasant sound" or whatever I mean by that is enough for me to enjoy music. It doesn't have to sound "real" with a direct reference to live music. And from my experience, getting emotionally moved my music is'nt related in any way to the sound of a system. The first 'click' I got with some great songs, when the tune gets you and you 'get it', and you want to play that song over and over again, at these moments I never had/have a clue how the song exactly sounds, how it is produced. There's only melody and rhythm, a blurry emotional manifestation, I breath the music and I don't care if I hear it on a transistor radio or on a fancy pancy hifi-set. Most favorite music pieces I started to appreciate on poor systems. Unfortunately the magic fades in time, those songs are still great, but the strong emotional reaction has disappeared. Still I want to keep playing those tunes and preferably on a "pleasant sounding" system. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12535 Registered: May-04 | . "And from my experience, getting emotionally moved my music is'nt related in any way to the sound of a system." Quite the point! You do not want a "system sound". You want the system to "sound" as little as possible and step aside to become as transparent as possible to the source. If you are buying the "sound" of a speaker - or any other component, you have stepped further away from the original sound of the performance. Do you have a greater chance of error with speakers which have a definite "sound"? Yes, but that doesn't mean other components cannot have a sound or that all other components sound alike. If you only listen to over processed, studio created works, then you have minimal benefit from knowing the "sound" of live music as it has little to do with what you hear. However, every musical performance, well recorded or poorly played - professional musician or native chant, has similarities that can be heard when you are familiar with the "sound" and emotional impact of real musicians performing on "real' instruments in a real space. That is, IMO, undeniable and only takes a bit of effort to understand. . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 119 Registered: Apr-08 | Nout's attitude is exactly what we try to foster in our customers. Don't sweat the small stuff, the goal is musical enjoyment, not component enjoyment. Having money for music, not money only for gear. Audio nirvana, not audiophilia nervosa. As I said, some people just naturally enjoy music and don't think too much about the gear, others don't seem to enjoy music, but figure it's just because they're so sophisticated and they require only the best before they can enjoy it. Music lovers come in and we play stuff and they just smile and tap their toes. Audiophiles come in and furrow their brow and 'analyze'. Our customers are very happy people that rarely upgrade, never feel the need to spend huge bucks on amps or CD players or cables, while our competitors' customers are always unhappy, always upgrading, always complaining about problems with their systems. Even the finest, most expensive systems are not realistic or transparent so feeling you can get there is futile, so just enjoy the ride. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12538 Registered: May-04 | . fishy, I thought you were going to tell me about fourth order crossovers and why the information matters? You brought this up a week ago. What's your problem? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 123 Registered: Apr-08 | I was waiting for you to explain it to me Grandpa. I ever so enjoy your fireside stories. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12544 Registered: May-04 | . So we found another thing little fishy doesn't know squat about! I kinda thought so. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12545 Registered: May-04 | . "Music lovers come in and we play stuff and they just smile and tap their toes." See, they can hear PRaT. Why can't you, fishy? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 128 Registered: Apr-08 | I hear the exact same thing, we just don't make up stupid, senseless names for it. You're the one that seems to know about phase. I know what different order crossovers do and why speakers aren't time coincident (completely killing any idea that 'PRaT' in an amplifier is a serious phenomena), I just wanted to see if *you* know, but apparently you don't. I don't know how someone who knows so little can bloviate so much. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 276 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan, there is no shame in admitting you put the B in BLOVIATE. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12550 Registered: May-04 | . "You're the one that seems to know about phase. I know what different order crossovers do and why speakers aren't time coincident ... " Whoa, man! Did she let you put your hand under her blouse? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12551 Registered: May-04 | . Hey, id, screw you. Why don't you spend your time on fishy's forum? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 277 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan, come on dude lighten up. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12552 Registered: May-04 | . OK, how about you go get those other two guys on fishy's forum and tell them he's over here. They seem to like it when he gets in these "regular fights" he apparently engages in on a constant basis. Tell them he's run into me and they should come watch this and enjoy it while I dismantle him bit by bit. As to lightening up? You stop with the BS and I won't tell you to screw yourself. . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 278 Registered: Mar-04 | Every time you and John have an exchange it seems like one of you is tense and unpleasant. I will let the forum make their decision, though it seems obvious. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 279 Registered: Mar-04 | "Tell them he's run into me and they should come watch this and enjoy it while I dismantle him bit by bit". Jan, I wasn't off by much when I called you smug was I? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12553 Registered: May-04 | . No brag, just fact. http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/no_brag_just_fact/ |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 130 Registered: Apr-08 | okay, Jan, how does an amp with "PRaT" make sense of the time/phase behavior of this $15K speaker? http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/206G52fig08.jpg |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 280 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan just to refresh your memory, the abbreviation ms on the bottom stands for milliseconds. I remember you were having issues with that last week. Now that wasn't BS, just a helping hand. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12554 Registered: May-04 | . "okay, Jan, how does an amp with "PRaT" make sense of the time/phase behavior of this $15K speaker?" How in the "F" should I know? Do you? The question makes no sense, there's no information provided other than a graph. For Godssake, fishy, you don't even know how to ask a proper question. Why should this Old Dog pay a bit of attention to your daumbass questions, lil'fishy? You don't even know enough to know how to ask a proper question. You are an embarrassment of ignorance! I suppose most amplifiers just stop working with this speaker and wait for someone to connect something that makes sense. Why should I care how an amplifier deals with BS?! Dear, imcomplete id, I never had a probelm with "ms". fishy had a problem with too many of them and not knowing what to do with them or what they do. Now bugger off! You are very annoying waiting for fishy to say something and then chiming in. Particularly when fishy doesn't say anything intelligent hisownself. And you playin' the "which way do we go, George, which way do we go" part of the team. You must be real proud! Get a life! Ya'know what, guys? You two are a waste of my time. I have better things to do, like go clean the eye boogers off my dogs' muzzles Unless you can come up with something that's worth my time, you are on "ignore". And, fishy, that doesn't mean I won't be watching for more of your dumbass comments. Have fun playing with yourselves, guys! . |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1264 Registered: May-06 | Neil - "Try and convey this with only generic reference to brand and model names." Excellent advice, I will try to keep that in mind for this thread. Chris H - "I have found that listening for the music first, and then if something strikes me as wrong, engage my logical side to try to determine what, works best as a process. If I try listening with my left brain, it is easy to miss the music." I actually did the opposite with my kit. I listen analytically whenever I change out something or tweak something. When I feel it is as spot on as I can get it I switch gears and then forget about everything and just listen to the music. I figure it isn't going to get any better without me changing something else, so as long as I am not messing with anything I forget about everything but the music. Stu P - In my situation, I also upgraded in order of the weakest link. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/243686.html I invited my neighbor, a musician, to come by yesterday to listen to various LPs on my "gullible" system. He stayed for a few hours. His foot never stopped tapping or swinging while the music was on. He actually hated to leave. He will be back! My "gullible" system does a very decent job of not getting in the way of the music. As I posted earlier, I have spent a lot of time tweaking with isolation and dampening, room treatments, various wires and ICs, once I had the gear I wanted in my kit. Whether it is my vintage tuner, or the displacing expensive speaker wire and IC for my inexpensive hand made stuff, I am willing to understand my mistakes and step back if that makes things better. With the help of the forum members here I have learned a lot to enable me to do this. JV - even though id seems stuck to JA like a suckling piglet I can understand him not spending more time on JA's forum since he keeps posting questions which JA ignores. BTW id, do you even know why I or anyone would use .999 pure silver wire? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 281 Registered: Mar-04 | "id, do you even know why I or anyone would use .999 pure silver wire"? Yes, you would use .999 pure silver wire wire because you are Michael Wodek. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 282 Registered: Mar-04 | "Tell them he's run into me and they should come watch this and enjoy it while I dismantle him bit by bit". "okay, Jan, how does an amp with "PRaT" make sense of the time/phase behavior of this $15K speaker"? "How in the "F" should I know"? Fantastic, I love that Jan. Keep it up Jan, bit by bit. Priceless. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12556 Registered: May-04 | . my boy, you aren't even as smart as fishy so don't go there. What he doesn't get is whether an amplifier has PRaT doesn't determine whether it can drive stupid loads. Some really good amplifiers with no more than a few watts can have pacing and timing that gets you exicted, gets you moving to the music and pulls your @ss in. Some amplifiers that drive stupid loads can't do anything else. What fishy doesn't get is you can't ask me how "an amplifier" deals with a speaker. You have to tell me what specific amplifier and what specific speaker. And if it's a speaker that looks like that, I don't give a rat'sass what it does. The real thing fishy and you don't get is I don't care to play your stupid games. So you go on acting like you know thisshit. Anybody with half the knowledge my dog has about this stuff knows you are both full of BS and fakin' it all the way. Get a life! . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 283 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan, I sense some hostility. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12557 Registered: May-04 | . Funny, you should sense you're being ignored. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1928 Registered: Nov-05 | unbridled id What does that stand for - an idiot on the loose? Will you please try not to turn this audio forum into a kiddies playground id? I'm sure your momma could find other things to keep you occupied. Go ask her if you can play with razor blades or something. |
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Bronze Member Username: AfjGaboroneBotswana Post Number: 62 Registered: Jan-08 | ja, thanks for the page but i dont have the experience or knowledge to relate to them. to me they are absolute figures. but maybe i'll learn through them. appreciate it though jv, my system is part of my living room. so cant really move them around too much apart from changing the distance between them +/- 1mt, or perhaps some toe in. i just bought the nad c272 and though i've read that its a very neutral amp i felt that it was a little warm. also the bass wasnt as tight as i thought it would be. but in saying that its very musical. and the realism is better than anything i've owned. i wouldnt say its perfect but im enjoying listening to it |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1929 Registered: Nov-05 | fj, The C272 is a real value for money amp imo. Yep, not perfect, but what is? I found interconnects and speaker cable gave the bass much more control. If you can borrow a few different types it may be worth your trouble investigating. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 284 Registered: Mar-04 | "Will you please try not to turn this audio forum into a kiddie's playground id"? Exposing Jan is in my opinion doing this forum a favor. Open your eyes M.R; you seem like a sensible person. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 285 Registered: Mar-04 | unbridled id What does that stand for - an idiot on the loose? "I'm sure your momma could find other things to keep you occupied. Go ask her if you can play with razor blades or something". Your not wishing harm upon me are you MR, that is beyond the pale? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12559 Registered: May-04 | . fj - You mentioned the highs not being all to you liking. Do you have any "hard" surfaces between you and the speakers? Possibly an uncarpeted floor or a coffee table in front of your chair? |
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Bronze Member Username: AfjGaboroneBotswana Post Number: 63 Registered: Jan-08 | well, my living area is open plan so its about 600 sq ft with a lounge, kitchen and dining. the speakers are on either side of the tv with a 3+2+1 sofa in front of it. the floor is ceremic tiled. there is a small carpet (5'x7') in front of the tv. i dont really have a chair which i use as a sweet spot to sit and listen. im pretty much all over the place. the highs only bother my when i play the music is loud. normally when im listening to something heavier - hard rock etc. doesnt bother me at all when im playing slower music or the acoustic versions (unplugged) |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 131 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, it's an impulse response graph, not an impedance curve. It's pretty easy to read and has plenty of information. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 132 Registered: Apr-08 | Francis, it's probably that that you've got too much reflection in the room and some dampening such as a rug or some wall panels will help keep the harshness down in the room, aside from the speaker's own sound. |
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Bronze Member Username: AfjGaboroneBotswana Post Number: 64 Registered: Jan-08 | mr, will try and check on interconnects and speaker wires. its difficult though. dont really have anyone that does this level of audio in the country. everything i buy comes through south africa. |
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Bronze Member Username: AfjGaboroneBotswana Post Number: 65 Registered: Jan-08 | chris - "Not that easy a speaker to drive" what makes it not an easy speaker to drive |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12561 Registered: May-04 | . fj - This would be better accomplished in another thread. This was meant to be a "how to listen" not a "what to buy" thread. I think your "problems" such as they are could be from mulitple causes. If you would please begin a new thread, answers meant for you won't get caught in the congestion of this thread. . |
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Bronze Member Username: AfjGaboroneBotswana Post Number: 66 Registered: Jan-08 | ja, the set up of the room definitely is acoustic averse. a lot of stuff in it. my wife so far has humoured me with my system but i dont think that would continue if i dampened the walls. im sure i can get the floor rugs by her though |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12562 Registered: May-04 | . fishy - What part of my previous reply are you finding incomprehensible? That I don't care to play stupid games devised by someone who can't ask a proper question? Well, accept that one as fact. Your "question" says nothing and I don't care to play your childish games. You started on fourth order crossovers and then didn't care to reply to my suggestion you tell me all you know about them and why it matters. Now you want me to comment on a graph. This is not a game of flashcards that you hold up and I respond to. This is me ignoring you unless you say something that needs a response. I don't care about your silly games. Babble on if you must but I'll just sit and make note of when you get so seriously off track as to endanger the rest of the readers. Otherwise, fishy, Toodles!!! . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 133 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, just admit that you don't know anything about speaker design or measurements and then we can move on. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 264 Registered: Jul-07 | "Exposing Jan is in my opinion doing this forum a favor." Exposing what exactly ? Is your name Jan too ? If your objective is to attempt to discredit JV to anyone here let me save you some time and tell you how it all turns out. You don't, and you look silly trying. Not that the agenda of JA and his sidekick was particularly well hidden. But it's nice that someone actually owned up to it. Give it up and get on with something constructive. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 134 Registered: Apr-08 | I don't know about 'exposing' Jan, but he is full of crap on most things, so there clearly needs to be other POVs that are a little more based in reality. I mean, seriously, he can explain "PRaT" in great and meaningless detail, but can't read a simple graph. Sounds exactly like the stereo store on the other end of town. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 286 Registered: Mar-04 | "If your objective is to attempt to discredit JV to anyone here let me save you some time and tell you how it all turns out. You don't, and you look silly trying". Hello Chris, can you tell me who said this: "Tell them he's run into me and they should come watch this and enjoy it while I dismantle him bit by bit". |
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Silver Member Username: NoutPost Number: 116 Registered: Mar-06 | It always makes me sad when people cannot agree to disagree. John Ashman, most of your posts, what I have read in two threads ("Audio Context" and "Old NAD vs New NAD") were constructive and nice to read. Unfortunately you seem to be somewhat too 'passionate' in trying to convince others (Read: Jan Vigne) with your truth. I actually agree with you on some parts: there aren't huge differences in sound between amps, in my opinion of course And PRaT will only be a concern when you're looking for it. But it exists, at least for many. And if not for me, if I personally would find PRaT a load of bullsh*t, who am I to tell others that they're wrong, that they must be imagining things? Just agree to disagree with Jan. I cannot see anything wrong in that. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 287 Registered: Mar-04 | Exposing what exactly? Fair question Chris. Exposing the fact that when other pov's are given that are not in line with Jan's he gets.. Simple. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1266 Registered: May-06 | JA - remember posting this? "As a drummer, i think i know a bit about 'pace, rhythm and timing'. It's a musical event, not a system event. PRaT is something for people that don't know anything about real pace rhythm and timing. Systems that often are described as having 'PRaT' on their own screw up that *actual* PRaT in the music. Especially if you're a drummer." Perhaps you forgot the BS you were spewing otherwise. Only an @ss who posted that would later post this: "I mean, seriously, he can explain "PRaT" in great and meaningless detail, but can't read a simple graph." While we are on the topic of your ignorance this one was another beauty you provided; "Keep in mind that PRaT in a speaker can be easily achieved with some cone resonance in the upper midrange and a mid bass peak. Voila, PRaT.Never mind that it's screwed up in time and phase by hundreds or thousands of degrees and quite a few ms." Meaningless? About anything that you provide is meaningless unless you copied it from another web publication and posted it here. The members of this forum are only folks who enjoy our kits and music. We do not sell this stuff, yet you have proven many folks here know more about this than you. With id(iot) as your sidekick, who somehow appears to know nothing, the two of you have pretty much turned into a joke for us. Good-day |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 135 Registered: Apr-08 | Thanks Nout, I don't enjoy disagreeing for the most part, but I'm also not the one that is so emotional about the discussion, unfortunately. Now if Jan can explain how you design an amp that has PRaT and what measurements correspond to it, that would be more interesting. Or if he could explain how an amp that has a lower upper end FR limit is "faster sounding". Or if he could explain one amp that is time/phase accurate has more 'timing' or 'rhythm' than another time/phase accurate amp. Or how CD player that has "pace" accuracy in the picoseconds can be lacking in pace. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 265 Registered: Jul-07 | JA, you don't get it dude. JV, nor anyone, are obligated to explain anything to you. I thought we agreed on another thread that people could listen and make their own minds up. If you agree with that, why do you care how they describe what they hear, and prefer ? I think you've left a few comments of your own unexplained (unexplainable ?), so why do you insist on challenging JV to explain YOUR theories. They're YOUR theories. You explain them. |
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Silver Member Username: NoutPost Number: 117 Registered: Mar-06 | Now if Jan can explain how you design an amp that has PRaT and what measurements correspond to it, that would be more interesting. Or if he could explain how an amp that has a lower upper end FR limit is "faster sounding". Or if he could explain one amp that is time/phase accurate has more 'timing' or 'rhythm' than another time/phase accurate amp. Or how CD player that has "pace" accuracy in the picoseconds can be lacking in pace. I don't know if Jan can explain this in a technical way, but he made a clear distinction between a "subjective" and "objective" way of looking/listening at audio. What is perceived by some isn't always measurable. Do you believe in God? I don't believe in a god, but respect anyone who does. True, Jan's way of debating and responding could be perceived as irritating I guess (Mr. Know it all etc. etc.), but he has every right to do so. I cannot come up with one person who has been and is such a valuable contributor to this forum. The time and effort he puts in his mostly erudite posts, not to show off, but to give people valuable tools and stuff to think about, gives him every right to sometimes respond in a mocking or provocative way. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 136 Registered: Apr-08 | Chris, I do think he should be able to back up at least *some* of what he says. Or, he'll just have to deal with the fact that I think he's largely full of crap and people should take his advice with extreme caution. Which of my comments would you like t to have explained? Nout, there's a bit of difference between belief in after life which can never really be proven one way or another and belief in supernatural hearing ability which can be proved or disproved easily and scientifically. The reality is that science is far more on my side than on Jan's, so believing most of what he said is like taking someone's word that there is God and joining a monastery. My point would be that "God" hasn't been proven so maybe joining the monastery is a bit extreme and living normally might be more rational. Jan does come off as the 'guy on the mountain' type though. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 288 Registered: Mar-04 | "With id(iot) as your sidekick, who somehow appears to know nothing, the two of you have pretty much turned into a joke for us". Not only that Mike but my ic's are only copper, and nothing is balancing on racquetballs, life is not fair. Ok, here is a funny one you may have seen before.... "Tell them he's run into me and they should come watch this and enjoy it while I dismantle him bit by bit". "okay, Jan, how does an amp with "PRaT" make sense of the time/phase behavior of this $15K speaker"? "How in the "F" should I know"? Jan, you set yourself up and when you had your chance you crashed and burned. Deal with it and let's move on. If you really were passionate about audio you would welcome not excoriate the opinions of others. What I find amusing has been your reaction(s) when challenged. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 289 Registered: Mar-04 | "The time and effort he puts in his mostly erudite posts, not to show off, but to give people valuable tools and stuff to think about, gives him every right to sometimes respond in a mocking or provocative way". If you can't take it why give it out? |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 266 Registered: Jul-07 | "Hello Chris, can you tell me who said this: "Tell them he's run into me and they should come watch this and enjoy it while I dismantle him bit by bit"." Clearly JV is evil. Luckily we have you two Super Heroes to save us from the relentless helpfullness. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 290 Registered: Mar-04 | Luckily we have you two Super Heroes to save us from the relentless helpfullness. Well, if I get to pick I would like to be Thor. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12563 Registered: May-04 | . "The reality is that science is far more on my side than on Jan's" Oh, my! One of many types of Logical Fallacies meant to distract from the reality of the situation. "Appeal to authority" An appeal to authority or argument by authority is a type of argument in logic consisting on basing the truth value of an assertion on the authority, knowledge, expertise, or position of the person asserting it. It is also known as argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it). It is one method of obtaining propositional knowledge, but a fallacy in regard to logic, because the validity of a claim does not follow from the credibility of the source. The corresponding reverse case would be an ad hominem attack: to imply that the claim is false because the asserter lacks authority or is otherwise objectionable in some way. fishy, this is beneath anyone with a real argument to state. Science is not more on your side than mine. You have no credibility when you use science as your weapon. You have words. Words that don't go together and don't prove anything. You just hope nobody notices you are behind the curtain. I notice. You toss out these flashcards as if what I know is on test here. It is not! Everyone here is satified with how I answer questions. If you're not satisfied, go somewhere else. Like back to your own little know-nothing forum. Why are you here? You never answered that! I dispense my knowledge when and where it is appropriate, not at the command of some wild eyed "gotcha" clown! A single graph that I am supposed to respond to? Please! How would am amplifier with PRaT deal with this speaker? Good Lord!!! fishy, if you see amplifiers solving the problems of speakers, I feel sorry for your customers. You've done them no favors. If you would have paid attention to any words not coming from your own @ss, you would have found your answer in my posts on PRaT. Since you consider yourself to be the only expert here, rather than read what I posted you made a dumb remark. How sad! "Now if Jan can explain how you design an amp that has PRaT and what measurements correspond to it, that would be more interesting. Or if he could explain how an amp that has a lower upper end FR limit is "faster sounding". Or if he could explain one amp that is time/phase accurate has more 'timing' or 'rhythm' than another time/phase accurate amp. Or how CD player that has "pace" accuracy in the picoseconds can be lacking in pace." Oh! Look!!! More flashcards from fishy! boy, you are wasting my time and only providing further proof you are inconsequential to this forum. You're not the first to come along and think I'm the one to knock off this forum. Luckily for him, no one seems to realize it is Nuck who is the big cheese around here! Get this straight, fishy, I'm not interested in your games. People who have been here for any length of time without any desire to become "King of the Hill" on their first post know when I will assist them and when I will ask them to think on their own. My rules are established and people either trust me or they become ids and climb up the rear end of someone like you. This past week has done nothing for your credibiltiy here. You are sounding more and more like a lunatic screaming outside the White House that the Venutians are coming. I'm not going to play your stupid, childish games. You can take that however you want. If you truly think I don't know from where I speak ... ROTFLMAO!!! Just know, fishy, I'll be watching for the most stupid things you post. Please, don't keep me constantly busy. Go attend to your store. There's a spot where you haven't split fresh BS today. Now, would anyone care to discuss audio? . |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 267 Registered: Jul-07 | "Well, if I get to pick I would like to be Thor." I have no doubt you are a bit. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1244 Registered: Nov-04 | Hey John Ashman! I have a question for ya. Why is it that you have no address on your website? How are we supposed to visit this wonderful store of yours? Oh, and why is the number you provide a personal number? I can't find ya in the yellow pages. Its ok though as I still found out where your store is and it's phone number and it seems that you have some unattended complaints against you. Don't believe me? See for yourself: http://www.bbbsw.org/BBBWeb/Forms/Business/CompanyReportPage_Expository.aspx?Com panyID=99126505 looks like we should pay a visit and be dazzled by your amazing knowledge in person. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 137 Registered: Apr-08 | 1. So as not to attract burglars and thieves 2. If you're a customer, you know where it is. 3. It's not a personal number, it's a business number 4. That was taken care of weeks ago. You're always going to have a difficult customer or bad situation in 15+ years of business. Can't avoid it, must as you'd like to. 5. This is the sad thing about people these days, everyone turns a logical disagreement into a personal, emotional one. I think it reflects more on you than on me. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 138 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, it's okay, it's already clear you can't answer easy, let alone tough questions. I don't know why you get so riled up about it except that you feel the need to be seen as an authority figure. I'm just trying to figure out if you even know anything at all as I haven't seen any evidence to show that you do. You can wax eloquently about nothing, but can't say anything about something. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1246 Registered: Nov-04 | I have by no means taken this personally, frankly I don't care. I have noticed Jan going from a much more helpful person on the forum a couple years ago to a much grumpier person now so I can see where you gripe comes from about him. I merely found it unusual for a retailer of such a small footprint not to have anything to make a connection to your business for outside potential customers. Obviously an existing customer will know about your business. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 291 Registered: Mar-04 | "Just know, fishy, I'll be watching for the most stupid things you post. Please, don't keep me constantly busy". Yea Jan, you have been most effective in refuting what John has said thus far, keep up the good work! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10111 Registered: Dec-04 | Ashman, there is usually a big dog on every forum, go troll for another one if you must continue to make no sense.You could continue in your own hated part of the web, or spread like mucous running down a little kids snoot. Deal with it. JV sounds like a know-it-all, and damn near does, just accept the attitude for suffering charades poorly. Know nothings are fine, thats learning, and Jan does it pretty well, lotsa bark. Each point that has sat still long enough for a fly to land or an answer to be delivered, you aswat and aswing like like the Gashouse Goon from Baseball Bugs. Dude, have a good time, I know I am, and JV couldnt care less. I suppose after so many decades in the business and enjoyment of music, along with providing sound for a music&production theatre those years, must have ruined JV,s hearing. Seems to me there was left a lingering question(among many) back there about Linkwitz-Riley XOs hmmm... |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 139 Registered: Apr-08 | Well, I don't know Jan or why he's so grumpy these days, but disagreement on forums is common. I also have strong opinions and don't expect everyone to agree with them, but I do like to make people think. I don't think it makes sense to personally attack people over a difference of opinion, after all, most of my customers differ with me on politics and religion. When you're talking about products with such relatively small differences, it makes a whole lot more sense to say admit that your experience may be entirely different from someone else, rather than acting as though it is fact. I'm not going to tiptoe around Jan just because he's grouchy and easily set off. Maybe he should consider that times change, products change, perceptions change, practices change. I have a competitor who is very much a front end first person and he comes off as very arrogant and as a know it all and he inadvertently drives people right to us, looking for just a normal, rational conversation. He comes across in person as Jan comes across on line. I come across as a whole lot cockier on line than I am in person. Or, maybe I'm just more diplomatic in person. I like exposing people to things, not ramming it down their throat. The "Jan" character in town tells people stuff like "well, if you knew *anything* about audio, you'd know that......" or "your system just won't sound good until you have a top notch CD player such as ......." and goes on and on about PRaT and front ends. But people just can't stand the guy for the most part and come to us (some of the stories I hear are pretty funny). And I'm sure some potential customers leave us because I talked more about setup and speakers and room acoustics and go straight to him to buy a $5K CD player to "solve" that room mode they've got. Such is life. We each put out a message and people respond to the message they like. As for the small footprint, I really don't go after internet business. I should, but I don't. There's a big double standard where companies tell you 'you can't', but then turn their head while some do, but I morally don't like taking money from out of state dealers that are really on the same team. I'd rather take business from CC and BB. And I'd rather take a guy that was going to buy a low fi system and get him into a mid-fi to entry level high-end system than convince someone who has or is buying a high-end system to buy it from me. Gotta do that occasionally just to stay in business, but the real thing dealers need to do is just get the masses into a decent, enjoyable, well setup system. And that we mainly have to do through word of mouth. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 140 Registered: Apr-08 | Nuck, I asked the crossover question for Jan since I know the answer and maybe he does too. But he won't answer it, even if he has to look it up, precisely because it undermines his whole point of the importance of "PRaT" in an amp or CD player. Front end people almost always use "PRaT" as a sales technique and use phrases like "garbage in, garbage out" or "you can't have quality from your speakers unless you have first rate products upstream". This is how you convince people to spend silly amounts of money on CD players, preamps, cables etc. Maybe he's not selling gear anymore, but he's acting as a sales person still, like a old timer selling cure all tonics that scientifically have little or no value. Now, I have a policy of not telling people what they can or can't hear *except* when they're trying to convince someone else who is on the fence about this stuff that they should hear all the dramatic differences a $1500 CD player will make. People ask me all the time "will these expensive cables make a difference for me" and my answer is generally "not really, don't worry about it, your cables are fine, BUT, if you want to come and try some, you're more than welcome to do so". Sometimes they do and say "you're right, I really didn't notice anything". There are people who *need* to spend the extra money on this stuff to be happy and there are people who don't want to and shouldn't have to. For them, we just get them into good speakers that make the most of whatever they have and let them get back to enjoying music. If they need more, they know they can always come back. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10113 Registered: Dec-04 | Ashman, you are such a twit. Vignes setup would make you tap your dick if you had one, all with 600$ in homemade speakers. Do you never read or listen, just keep the gums a flappin. Useless twit, I am not even going to go back and quote how many times you have changed your tune, if you could carry one. Check my profile, Goon, and make sure you have heard of this little brand before you go making offhand comments about listening. I have heard as many bands, as many musical productions as you have, I bet, I being a weekend musician and the 4 yr high school sound guy with help from the local orchestra guy. Thats a lotta years ago, and ya know what..it still sounds as sweet. So..geez..If I wish I could play a 13 pc Tama rock kit...play harmonica between front vocals and have fun, I would do so ...again. Kareoke on Thursday...hmmm... All with PRaT. Cause I CAN. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1930 Registered: Nov-05 | Where's the good old Lone Ranger or the Nun when we need them? They used to be able to clean up the trash on this forum. Fancy advice from a twit who can't hear differences in amps, or when various cdp's or cables are added to a system. Even my wife can hear changes, subtle and not so subtle. She could hear how crappy our NAD C542 sounded against an Apollo. She could hear how spacious and clean our MFA5 sounded compared to our C162/C272. She could believe the difference Merlin cables made in our system. And she knows less than I do - which admittedly isn't much. However, she, like myself, can spot a dork a mile away. And Ashman, you are a complete dork! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10121 Registered: Dec-04 | Cheers, M.R. At least there is a convenient whipping boy available. Stupid and talkative...very handy. Sidekick is a free option in a slow year. Enjoy the winter, mate. Sunbathing here..well. in a few weeks, had the last weekend to clean the yard...sweet redhead leading the show, shorts and a tighty top to move things along  |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1931 Registered: Nov-05 | Hey watch those redheads my friend, they can be fiery! Our winters are pretty respectable here in sunny Queensland. We're off for a week in Byron Bay on the 9th. Still hope for a tan even then. Cheers mate. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10124 Registered: Dec-04 | Working on buying a house and an income property here, kids. Stereo might be for sale coming up. Classe for (relatively) cheap. Buy the lot! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 268 Registered: Jul-07 | "I also have strong opinions and don't expect everyone to agree with them" Yes you do John. You cling to them like absolutes instead of opinion. And you don't listen to arguments to the contrary. "When you're talking about products with such relatively small differences" Small to whom ? Relative to what ? "makes a whole lot more sense to say admit that your experience may be entirely different from someone else, rather than acting as though it is fact." Yes, ok, but then in the same breath to say.... "...and go straight to him to buy a $5K CD player to "solve" that room mode they've got. " ...where you have no sweet clue what their problem is. You have 1 answer to all problems and won't admit for one second that there is someone out there with a crappy source causing the rest of their system to sound like crap. No, not EVERYONE, but SOMEONE. Unless there is some magic cure for crap that leaves a poor source, I'm at a loss how your going to fix that with speakers. That's like putting lipstick on a pig. Not every problem is the same problem John. Every situation and Customer is different. And if you can't hear the difference between a DVD player and a decent source you are in the wrong business. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 269 Registered: Jul-07 | Keep the Classe gear Nuck. You'll regret parting with it. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10128 Registered: Dec-04 | Chris, you get all the more fun everytime you post. Watch the IM Nuck |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10129 Registered: Dec-04 | Meantime, I think I gotta move some stuff. ca200 amp..Rotel RB985 5 channel amp. The ca 200 should garner 1400 for the divorce lawyer |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 292 Registered: Mar-04 | Wow, Nuck woke up on the wrong side of the bed. What is wrong Nuck the wife driving you up the wall or what? Goodbye Classe hello NAD? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 293 Registered: Mar-04 | John you made the fatal mistake of taking on (and thrashing) the Pied Piper of ecoustics, shame on you! |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 142 Registered: Apr-08 | Nuck, MR, if you could make an argument that did anything more than spew anger, frustration and immaturity, it might help. Ooooohhhhh, you called me a name, I guess I'll run home and cry now.  Chris - "Yes you do John. You cling to them like absolutes instead of opinion. And you don't listen to arguments to the contrary. " My experience and my own proofs tell me I'm right. People calling me names and telling me all the BS I've heard before won't change my mind. People are free to believe as they wish. I'm not trying to change the minds of the entrenched, but hopefully bring a bit of sanity for those that may get caught up in the BS since it's so prevalent here. I suspect that many of these people got driven from other boards because there were too many rational people on them. "Small to whom ? Relative to what ? " Small to anyone except for imagination based magnifying glasses. Certainly relative to speakers, setup, room acoustics. This is all easily proven. "...where you have no sweet clue what their problem is. You have 1 answer to all problems and won't admit for one second that there is someone out there with a crappy source causing the rest of their system to sound like crap. No, not EVERYONE, but SOMEONE. Unless there is some magic cure for crap that leaves a poor source, I'm at a loss how your going to fix that with speakers. That's like putting lipstick on a pig. Not every problem is the same problem John. Every situation and Customer is different. " The last sentence is true. However, some problems are imagined and some are real. It's pretty hard to find a "crappy" CD player over about $200 or $300. "And if you can't hear the difference between a DVD player and a decent source you are in the wrong business." Sure, if BSing people into buying expensive stuff is the business, but it's not for me. It's making people happy, not feeding neurotic impulses. My main customers are music and movie lovers, not audiophiles and that's because I will *not* sell an amp to fix what is obviously a room problem, I will *not* sell a CD player to fix what is obviously a speaker problem. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 143 Registered: Apr-08 | BTW, Chris, one of the things that happens with two products is that if one unit is more expensive or has the more prestigious name or is the preferred brand or product, *any* difference heard will almost always go to the product that is predetermined to be superior. If it's a DBT and you can provably hear a difference, it is far more likely that the underdog will win. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1932 Registered: Nov-05 | Ooooohhhhh, you called me a name, I guess I'll run home and cry now I hope you're a man of your word! |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1268 Registered: May-06 | One of the reasons JV and others tout to listen to live music, starting with vocals, is to get a sense of what to listen for. Having a point of reference is essential to auditioning gear you may purchase. If you listen a system, or a system with the component or speakers you want swapped in and out, and it only sounds different why spend your money if the difference is not necessarily getting closer to the sound you are wanting from your system. Better is in the ear of the beholder. It is important for newbies to have a sense of direction, a plan, and knowing what sounds right when they hear it. Brands should not matter nor should price (within budget), nor a double blind test (DBT). Having someone tell me what I am hearing or what I should be buying is useless. Not unless you spend the time to find out what it is I listen for, what it is I listen to, how I listen. One of Marsh's favorite phrases is "nobody cares what you know until they know that you care". I could not buy from someone who simply decided for me what I wanted without knowing those things about me. It would be like someone coming to me to sell a recliner to them to sit in for hours on end and I just ask them what do they want to use it for, what they want to spend, and sell them our sale item without further adieu. Same for someone venturing into higher end audio, they should not be told what to listen for and what gear provides that. The sense that someone will pick the preferred brand or product is assuming they have a fear of looking stupid. Would they have that fear if they were informed that there is no right or wrong answer? Would they feel the need to "get it right" if someone did not emphasize what they "should prefer"? Any experienced listener would not care which one they picked, just whichever one sounded better to their ears. I would rather work with a dealer that would best prepare me to make an unbiased decision and support what it is I hear and say by understanding my wants and keeping me on course by staying on course with me. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 144 Registered: Apr-08 | Live music can be listening to your roommate strum a guitar, listening to a singer in church, hearing someone play piano. We hear live sound every day, especially voice. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 270 Registered: Jul-07 | "My experience and my own proofs tell me I'm right." Two things. First, this can only be right FOR YOU (this is the part you seem to have a hard time understanding). Secondly, how long has your mind been made up ? Cuz you haven't learned ANYTHING since it has been. "It's pretty hard to find a "crappy" CD player over about $200 or $300. " No, it's really easy. Of course "crappy" depends on your objectives, oh, and your ability to hear. I've done this test myself, and to my ears there are significant differences. If you don't hear the difference, or if the differences aren't important to you, that's fine John. However you only have one set of ears, and you can't hear what anyone else hears. No matter how hard you huff and puff, you'll never convince someone that what they are hearing does not exist, which seems to be your whole arguement. This is predicated of course by an assumption of mass hysteria. Keep hiding behind your internet DBT if you like, but people largely aren't as stupid as you let on. Except for the ones who refuse to allow that they might be wrong. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 294 Registered: Mar-04 | "However you only have one set of ears, and you can't hear what anyone else hears". Or what anyone else wants/imagines to hear. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12566 Registered: May-04 | . "Wow, Nuck woke up on the wrong side of the bed. What is wrong Nuck the wife driving you up the wall or what?" id, you f*cking idiot! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12567 Registered: May-04 | . "Live music can be listening to your roommate strum a guitar, listening to a singer in church, hearing someone play piano. We hear live sound every day, especially voice." Exactly! You got it, fishy, except you want to use it as a negative. You don't need measurements first, you need a reference first to tell you if the measurements are heading in the right direction. As I said on the NAD thread, just ask if the designer listened to the product before they put it on the market. If the answer is yes, you know what the designer thought was most important and they realized measurements are simply a set of tools for their use but not a substitute for their finest tool, their ears. Tests get the length and the width right but the designer's ears get the "fit" right. . |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 271 Registered: Jul-07 | "Or what anyone else wants/imagines to hear." Yep, that's right ID. No one really hears anything. It's all an illusion. Stick with that. Buy a boom-box and be happy. That's why you hang around an AUDIO forum, cuz you think everything sounds the same. Makes sense. Why don't you go find a Video forum and tell people not to trust their eyes. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 146 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, measurements won't tell us if something sounds good or bad to anyone necessarily, but it will tell us if something is *wrong* or if the product is on the right track towards accomplishing its goal. Chris, a DBT *can* prove whether we're both right of if only one of us is right. Most people won't put their pride on the line for one though. It's hard to after you've pontificated about how great your hearing is for years, then suddenly fail test after test. That's why there's always these bad excuses why DBTs don't work. The "tests" you have taken aren't scientific and though they may give you impressions, they can just as easily give you false impressions, ones that you might cling to for years or decades. Again, there's a reason why the output of DACs are so high, it produces an instant, obvious difference to someone doing a simple non-level matched A/B. There's a reason why some speakers are designed for high efficiency. There's a reason why TV colors come set badly from the factory. To make it easy to mislead the consumer into buying. I head a BIG difference between the Parasound CD and DAC way back when, til I actually bothered to precisely level match them. Then it was somewhere between marginal and non-existent. It hadn't occurred to me at first that a slightly different output voltage would skew my perceptions so badly. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 147 Registered: Apr-08 | BTW, this all goes back to having a little caution is making statements of superiority. Let's say that you hear a Rega and a Linn CD player. You hear that the Rega is clearly better, blows away the Linn in very specific ways. Someone else compares them and comes to the exact opposite conclusion. A third person isn't sure if there's a difference at all. What does that mean? Anything? Do the views cancel each other out? Does each person angrily hold their opinion as sacred and call the other people names for not hearing what they did? How to you hold onto your perception while respecting someone who thinks the exact opposite from the same experience? You realize, of course, is that this is why we have such horrible government regardless of who is in charge, right? People with tightly held beliefs based on pure emotion, not reason or science, that then clash with each other and call each other names rather than admit that maybe they don't have all the answers? It could very well be that a Rega Planet or Apollo blows away an NAD C542, but if it does, I'd like to see it proven as I had no such experience as a dealer. They both sounded great. But if one is clearly superior, a DBT will easily and consistently reveal that. I would think you guys would *love* DBTs because it is the perfect mechanism to prove how good your hearing is and how right you are about everything. It's illogical for you to revile them so much, which is why I don't trust anyone who attacks them. It's like knowing there's no God, but pretending there is because it makes you feel better or something. |
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Bronze Member Username: AfjGaboroneBotswana Post Number: 68 Registered: Jan-08 | "Or what anyone else wants/imagines to hear." lol. id, you cant really believe what you just said??? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 148 Registered: Apr-08 | Francis, he's got a good point. You can't hear someone else's imagination, though you can prove it isn't valid in a DBT. You can easily hear exactly what they hear, you just may not imagine it into something it is not. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 272 Registered: Jul-07 | "a DBT *can* prove whether we're both right of if only one of us is right." Nope. It can only, at best, prove to ME what I prefer. YOU aren't even in the equation. "It could very well be that a Rega Planet or Apollo blows away an NAD C542, but if it does, I'd like to see it proven as I had no such experience as a dealer. " No one here is saying that one is better than the other. They only know what is better TO THEM. If you disagree that's fine. But you having an alternate viewpoint does not make them wrong. You've already agreed that if a Customer likes something better, then to them it's better. Why are you clinging to right and wrong when you also state.... "Does each person angrily hold their opinion as sacred and call the other people names for not hearing what they did?" So John, are you angrily holding your own opinion as sacred ? You can't have it both ways. We're either wrong (and you're right), or we're able to hold our own opinions and perspectives. Which is it John ? |
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Bronze Member Username: AfjGaboroneBotswana Post Number: 69 Registered: Jan-08 | ja, i dont know much about prat and dbt, but what i do know is that i dont have fairies singing in my ears. cables change sound. cdp's change sound. you may argue that you prefer the sound coming out of a nad to a rega. or that the increment in quality of sound is negligible. but you cant argue that they sound the same |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 149 Registered: Apr-08 | Well, Chris, I kinda remember everyone talking about NAD getting "blown away" or "only hearing music for the first time *after* NAD" and "it's not even close" etc, etc. Let me ask you this hypothetical. Let's say you took a DBT to prove you were right. Obviously, being able to pick your player 75% of the time or more would be a great proof. But......what if you picked the NAD as the best player? Would you become a little more open to the influence of price and branding? Or, what if you heard no difference at all, basically coming out 50/50 on the test? Would you cling to your beliefs and disparage the test as Jan always does any chance he gets? Feel depressed? Educated? Just curious. As for my beliefs, I'd put them to the test any time and do any time I get the chance. My beliefs aren't sacred to me, they only come from past experiences and are subject to change based on future experiences. But I am a natural skeptic and listen very carefully to hear beyond my predispositions. Francis, I'm not saying no differences, I'm saying that most differences are subtle, subjective and not inherently better, just different most of the time. And that many people view these 'equal but different' experiences in favor of the more expensive machine when it may not be the case. Of course, if two pieces measure differently, they *must* sound differently, it's a matter of being able to hear it and make sense of it. |
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