Archive through April 24, 2008
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1918 Registered: Nov-05 | 250 posts. Enough for a cow paddock and plenty to contain the huge amount of BS. Shame some can't tell what it looks like. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 53 Registered: Apr-08 | Mike, no offense, but pretty much your entire system just screams "gullible", so if taking shots at me is your way of preserving your self-made world, feel free. |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 251 Registered: Mar-04 | "Enough for a cow paddock and plenty to contain the huge amount of BS. Shame some can't tell what it looks like". Very clever MR, ever since you acquired that A-5 you have a swagger about you, keep it up! |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1920 Registered: Nov-05 | U/id Many thanks. My wife commented on the swagger also. She likes it! |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 252 Registered: Mar-04 | "All that because I asked if you were from the North side of town"? Acutally yes, I was not defending the northside I was offended by your presuming I resided there (if that is indeed what you did). I have noticed a similarity on this forum and the Polk forum. There seem to be "elder statesmen/audio elitist" types on both, polk has Russman (also from... you guessed it Texas) and his acolytes, cross them and its mudslinging and name calling until they drown out any opposition. I understand taking three smug p*icks from a sample as large as that of the state of Texas is in no way representive of anything in particular. Now John doesn't need me to speak on his behalf he can handle himself (and quite honestly I don't know much about phase angles). But Mikey, if you read the thread from the beginning the mass opposition towards anything John said began in earnest after his magesty Jan Vinge spoke disapprovingly towards what John was stating. I think having someone around who goes against the grain so to speak is healthy but you folks (this is why I call you lemmings) don't seem to want that. Well, who cares what the heard wants let them stay in the cow paddocks? I attempted to smooth things over or inject some (often poor) humor into the situation to "lighten" the mood a bit and hopefully keep the conversation on point. But a smug p*ick is a smug p*ick and it doesn't matter where he is from. Why don't the rest of you show some balls? |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 253 Registered: Mar-04 | "Many thanks. My wife commented on the swagger also". Just remember MR, you left NAD, NAD didnt' leave you. You are welcome to come back anytime you feel the need. (I know the A-5 is bonzer). First cow paddocks and then bonzer, I am getting hip first to English lingo now Aussie lingo, been a great day. 1667 posts to go MR and then maybe I can hang with you. |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1921 Registered: Nov-05 | Why don't the rest of you show some balls? 0 (only one - testicular cancer) Happy now id? Perhaps you can hang with me. There's plenty of room! |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 241 Registered: Jul-07 | "But a smug p*ick is a smug p*ick and it doesn't matter where he is from. Why don't the rest of you show some balls?" Who needs to take the deep breath ? Goodness, you're getting yourself all worked up into a lather. If you paid attention you'd know that people here disaggree all the time. Almost always respectfully. Get over yourself. Your presumptions are just that. |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1257 Registered: May-06 | id - "I attempted to smooth things over or inject some (often poor) humor into the situation to "lighten" the mood a bit and hopefully keep the conversation on point." But I post - "id - tell me you are from the north side of Chicago...LOL " and you crap all over yourself. id - "There seem to be "elder statesmen/audio elitist" types on both, polk has Russman (also from... you guessed it Texas) and his acolytes, cross them and its mudslinging and name calling until they drown out any opposition." My elucidating JA's behavior as huckster or shyster? That's your idea of name calling? Good grief, your sensitivity ls...well is interesting, let's leave it at that. I pointed out that there has been little that JA offered that would be of value to this thread with respect to facts. For that you feel the need to get frenzied? JA, I have heard NAD M3 and other NAD gear. It does not bring life to the music for me. The presentations that I heard were uninspired. Yes it presented accuracy, imaging, and was not "bright" by your definition. I have listened to live music and grew up listening to music which both have an influence in what I look for from my system. Fortunately I was gullible enough to build a system that does all the things I look for in its presentation, which is to find the music enjoyable and exciting. I do not cull from your posts that those qualities are something you embrace or understand. Cheers. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 54 Registered: Apr-08 | As a drummer, i think i know a bit about 'pace, rhythm and timing'. It's a musical event, not a system event. PRaT is something for people that don't know anything about real pace rhythm and timing. Systems that often are described as having 'PRaT' on their own screw up that *actual* PRaT in the music. Especially if you're a drummer. My system doesn't have "PRaT" in and of itself, it simply allows it to pass through unadulterated. I have a saying that music lovers are people that use a stereo system to listen to music and audiophiles are people that use music to listen to a stereo system. I should include that people that believe in PRaT are people that can't feel the rhythm of music and therefore have to have it manufactured by their stereo. Mike's system looks like it was based exclusively on random reviews and passing fads. I guess if you call a Gallo's compressed bass, thin/harsh midrange and disconnected treble "PRaT" then, well, I avoid that in my system. Here's a fun quote from Soundstage article: "Now, the next word up for sale on "Is the Review Right?" is Rhythm. That's one of the big bass words, right next to Pace and Timing. Just what do any of these words mean in the context of audio, anyway? A trip to 1990's subjective review bible, The Audio Glossary from J. Gordon Holt, yields no help. As far as I can tell, the current fad in using those terms goes back to two columns from reviewer Martin Colloms. The December 1991 Stereophile goes into "Bass," while November 1992 yields "Pace, Rhythm, and Timing." I remember reading them when first published and being unenlightened. A recent return to the material didn't help much. Regardless, I have to take exception to these terms. First off, audio components don't have pace, rhythm, or timing -- music does. One of the fundamental flaws of most audio reviewing that I read is the poor grasp between cause and effect for what people hear and report on. If I tell you a cable has bad rhythm, this gives you almost no useful information; I'm just throwing around a poorly defined term. Instead, I should be describing what it is that isn't coming through that makes the rhythm seem bad. If I tell you a cable rolls off the bottom end, you can bet that it's got bad "pace," too, but now I've given you an idea why. What's really a shame is that in these same reviews that confuse the reader by describing pace, rhythm, and timing, the real problems are mentioned -- things like speaker cabinet vibration coloration, often a cause of poor "timing." Why does a reviewer have to pick a trio of poorly defined words to describe that? Just say the cabinet rattles enough to smear the bass around already, don't pick a mysterious word that only true audiophiles are supposed to understand. The whole style of subjective reviewing where sound quality is described with little concern for why doesn't do anything to help people who have issues with their system understand what it is they should be improving. It's no wonder people often read reviews and end up more confused than when they started!" |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12486 Registered: May-04 | . "JA - Do you ever sell anything more expensive than NAD? Or do you always downsell to the cheapest product? You know, to do your client a favor. "Hellsbells, it's good enough for me, why should you want anything more? I can't hear PRaT, why should you want it?" "Mike, no offense, but pretty much your entire system just screams "gullible" Question answered. I've worked with the likes of you. A quick sale based on, "You can't hear a difference can you?" I haven't called you a punk for awhile, punk. But taking a shot at someone by insulting their system is the kind of cheapass crap I expect to find on the playground. You got nothing, you know nothing and you're a chump, PUNK! IF you're going to stay here, what people own is off limits. But I don't see you staying much longer. Punks don't fair well on this forum. We like people who can disagree and still respect the others. Gonna call me an old guy again, punk? . |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 55 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, you don't know me at all. I do know you though, you're the 'big poster' that tries to be the big fish in the little sea. You attack anyone or anything that contradicts you because it hurts your position as a know-it-all. You do anything and everything possible to drive your 'enemies' off the forum by putting words in their mouths, calling names, running to moderators and generally whining a lot. You *do* sound old and out of touch though.  |
|
Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 68 Registered: Jul-05 | John Ash Unbrid Hey stop this insanity! come on guys all you need is some Bisacodyl. It will help you a bunch. It worked fine for a guy I knew at school. You will be thankful!  http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a601027.html |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 56 Registered: Apr-08 | BTW, I don't care if people devote their entire life building alters to 'PRaT', even if they're dropping in Aural Excites and an array of DBX processors to do it (the old method), but acting like other systems that don't have the 'PRaT' colorations (or imaginations) are some how 'deficient' or 'non-musical' is just silly. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 57 Registered: Apr-08 | "A guy i knew" Uh huh  |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 242 Registered: Jul-07 | Look in the mirror JA. An attacking know-it-all pretty much sums up your last few posts. You talk in absolutes like you've got everything figured out, and everyone else is wrong. PRaT doesn't exist because you say it doesn't. Who's contradictory ? NAD is as good as anyone can hear, because it's as good as YOU can hear. And "good" to you is what should be "good" to everyone right ? Just tell us the way it is JA and we'll be your captive audience. Tell us more of your truisms. What, MW's kit sucks ? Wow, didn't see that coming, but I'm sure he's grateful to know. Shame none of us were so honest with him about it. Good for you JA, good for you. And you don't need any help getting driven from the forum. You're doing quite a nice job of that on your own. |
|
Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 69 Registered: Jul-05 | "A guy i knew" Uh huh oh my it was you !  Carry on Johnny |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 58 Registered: Apr-08 | Forums aren't about 'captive audiences'. They're about the exchange of information and opinion. Not driving out anyone with whom you disagree. When you're willing to lay a large chunk of change on a DBT, you let me know and you can prove me wrong and take my money. Prove that a Bryston or whatever has "PRaT" and the NAD M3 doesn't with no audiophile goggles on. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12487 Registered: May-04 | . ""A guy i knew" Uh huh oh my it was you ! Carry on Johnny" ROTFL |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 243 Registered: Jul-07 | Nice switch John. From attack to passive aggressive when you're called on it. Pretty smooth. If you want to exchange ideas and opinions then great. Just stop the rest of the nonsense. Allow that maybe....just maybe....your word isn't the last word on audio. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12488 Registered: May-04 | . JA - I'm not trying to drive you off, you'll do that by your own self. Stupid doesn't last on this forum, ask any of us old guys. There's a long list of punks that have come and gone from this forum. Stupid is what you are however. So stupid you can't recognize it when someone is trying to do you a favor and educate you so you stop making dumb mistakes like "hundreds of phase shift". You see that as a challenge. Yep, I've worked with you before. You're perfectly welcome to stay as long as you feel comfortable being corrected every time you post something ignorant like, "Never blame the electronics for the sound of a speaker." Hey, look, you've got one fan already. Id is doing a great job defending you. Stay as long as you wish. You might learn something. Unlikely but you might. . |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1402 Registered: Jun-07 | When I listen to gear, I listen to hear weather its musical to me, sounds right, sounds like music should. If I like the presentation of a full setup, then I like that system. Personally thats all it takes for me, I don't listen for any specific 'type' of sound like PrAT, or Warmth, or whatever other terms there are. I listen to the music, and if the system happens to play that music to a level I can enjoy it. Then hey, I am a happy camper. Bryston sounds amazing to my ears, the NAD M3 does sound good to my ears as well. Always has. And also, Mike Wodek's system sounds great as well. A Solid state AMP/ Tube pre amp combo is still to this day, the most musical combo I have ever heard. I may be young, but I have heard a Sh!t load of different gear and setups. Mike Wodek's sytem may be "Gullible" to you, but to me it would bring lots of Musical enjoyment. This again, is just my opinion. |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 254 Registered: Mar-04 | But I post - "id - tell me you are from the north side of Chicago...LOL " and you crap all over yourself. Mike, your Frasier Crane muse isn't serving you well. Calling a spade a spade isn't being frenzied its being forthright. But, here is why I "crapped all over myself"?. I see a commonality between folks like you and those on the Northside, I don't care for it and don't want to be lumped in with it. What is the matter Mike, you have a sharp set of elbows on yourself, man up. I understand as we age (your 50 now) and as our hairlines receed and waistlines expand we attempt to recapture our youth but what is with the LOL's and ROFLMA's? Perhaps your expressing your soidarity with your brokeback mountain co-star Jan? Express yourself, I value your thoughts. |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1403 Registered: Jun-07 | Unbridled ID- Im not trying to butt in here, and I am on nobodies side on this. But I remember a few times now, a while back Jan and Mike Wodek both providing you with great help on certain questions. As they have to all of us at one time or another. We are here for ya man.lol Cheers. |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 255 Registered: Mar-04 | "Hey, look, you've got one fan already. Id is doing a great job defending you". But Jan I don't know anything about phase angles! And I own some NAD gear! Once again I ask for your forgiveness your excellency. "IF you're going to stay here, what people own is off limits". Who are you to say this when you critize whole companies? Jan your not playing fair in the ecoustics sandbox, shame on you. I have a question for you Jan. I ask simply for curiosities sake. What is wrong with DBT, why is it's validity in your opinion an issue? You castigated (look Chris I found my thesaurus) John for a foucs (though not exclusive) on measurements. |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 256 Registered: Mar-04 | Why don't the rest of you show some balls? 0 (only one - testicular cancer) Happy now id? Perhaps you can hang with me. There's plenty of room! Figure of speech I had no way of knowing your situation. I am intimately aware of what cancer can do to someone though. I would love to hang with you and I like this board (even Mike and Jan you two SOB's). Just kidding, Mike I am in full control of my sphincter muscle, just though you should know. |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 257 Registered: Mar-04 | Unbridled ID- Im not trying to butt in here, and I am on nobodies side on this. Nick, you are never butting in and I wish there were no such thing as sides here but you know that the way this forum works. It isn't the most efficient way to move a debate forward (unless several pile on one and drive them and their opinions off the board). But I remember a few times now, a while back Jan and Mike Wodek both providing you with great help on certain questions. I do remember Jans input and I do not remember Mikes but I don't doubt he gave it. I appreciate anything constructive and I can take constructive criticism. However there is an air of conceit among some here, it not life altering but it's there. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 59 Registered: Apr-08 | Chris, I don't think you understand the term "passive aggressive" Jan, stupid seems to have kept you around for 12k posts. What's the phase shift on a 4th order crossover? How does a speaker have "PRaT", except in one's imagination, if the impulse response has 3 peaks instead of one? How does a phase coherent speaker portray "PRaT" if the music itself has time/phase errors throughout? And does it even matter? How can two amps measure virtually the same and yet one has "PRaT" and the other doesn't? And can you *prove* that you can even hear the difference? |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 244 Registered: Jul-07 | JA, what is your issue with the otherwise commonly accepted term PRaT ? I've never seen someone so vehement about a term before. Where you attacked as a child by a PRatBull Terrior ? Did your sister have an evil PRaTtyCathy doll ? Did you get thrown out of a PRaTernity in college ? Or maybe the victim of a PRaTernity suit ? Good god, what was it man ! |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 258 Registered: Mar-04 | Gonna call me an old guy again, punk? How old are you Jan, you don't have wooden teeth do you? My elucidating JA's behavior as huckster or shyster? That's your idea of name calling? No, its my idea of your being a smug p*ick. Your elucidation is based upon what exactly, your opinion? The number of pieces you have in your residence, .999% silver wire. Your opinion is just that and has not offered any clarification. You do know what elucidate means don't you? If you don't just ask Chris he will fill you in. |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 259 Registered: Mar-04 | JA, what is your issue with the otherwise commonly accepted term PRaT ? Chris, you have to give John this much, he has explained this one several times has he not? |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 245 Registered: Jul-07 | "Chris, you have to give John this much, he has explained this one several times has he not?" Oh I know he doesn't like the term. No question about that. Abundantly clear. But the thing is, other people ARE ok with it. Lots of people even. And he doesn't appear to be ok with that either. That's where the real problem is. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12489 Registered: May-04 | . id - Not one damnthing you've posted has made any sense. Get back on the meds. |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1923 Registered: Nov-05 | "How does a speaker have "PRaT", except in one's imagination I don't think anyone here believes a speaker has PRaT JA, though I won't speak for them. I believe certain speakers will enable PRaT. It's like saying a speaker sounds good. A speaker doesn't make any sound unless the system allows it to. PRaT begins with the source, is passed by amplification and finally exposed by the speaker - if indeed these components have the quality to allow PRaT to be passed to the listener. Hope you enjoyed the lesson - as flawed as it may be. I'm no expert, but as sure as shite, it's glaringly obvious you aren't either. In fact JA, you may be a prat - and you sure need a kick in the prat. In fact, a system with PRaT, is a kick a*se sytem. Google the term JA. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 60 Registered: Apr-08 | Chris, as i said, PRaT is either a) an imaginary, made up, senseless marketing tool used by a lot of over priced amplifier/speaker companies and/or b) a coloration apart from neutrality and transparency that suckers in people who aren't terribly adept listeners. Now, you disagree all you want, but if you do, I'm just saying, put some money down! Let's see if you're half as astute as you think you are. You know really good marketing when you can convince the customer to repeat marketing jargon as though it is something real and substantive. PRaT is about as close to cult behavior as you can get. Well, a cult within a cult, I suppose. I look at it this way. Either 1. The differences between any good amplifiers are so small that they can't be heard in a DBT, in which case, this argument is all about nothing. 2. The differences between any good amplifiers are so small that they will be perceived subjectively, personally and in completely different ways depending on the person and system, in which case, you can't force the "I hear it this way, so it's fact" statement on anyone except yourself or 3. The differences are obvious, repeatable and similar, and therefore, it should be easy to take my money in a DBT |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12490 Registered: May-04 | . "Jan, stupid seems to have kept you around for 12k posts. What's the phase shift on a 4th order crossover? How does a speaker have "PRaT", except in one's imagination, if the impulse response has 3 peaks instead of one? How does a phase coherent speaker portray "PRaT" if the music itself has time/phase errors throughout? And does it even matter? How can two amps measure virtually the same and yet one has "PRaT" and the other doesn't? And can you *prove* that you can even hear the difference?" JA - "Stupid" has bothered me for 12k posts. The names change - right now it's JA - but "stupid" always remains. There is quite often an over abundance of stupid when people show up here. They think they are the young punk who just showed up in town and they're going to blow everybody away with some BS like "hundreds of phase shift". Something slick that don't mean sh*t. If you're smart, say like Frank, you don't deal in BS and we get along well with only ocassional opinion differences. And we respect the other for what they do know and like to learn from them. But when that young punk full of BS thinks they need to challenge one of the old gunslingers ... Look around. Figure out who's still here. Along that vein, you must have missed the section of the forum rules that says Old Dog does not have to play little fish's games whenever lil' fishy wants some attention. You're still lil' fishy, JA, and all you have are words, just words and not a clue as to how they fit together. I will, however, work with the idea of PRaT. In an audio system PRaT is a matter of perception just as most things are. It is a quality that is as much a function of knowledge, familiarity and perception as are timbre, tonality, texture, staging, etc. If you are familiar with the sound of live music - you know like the clients who tell you they know what they are and are not hearing, you will probably hear PRaT and many of those other musical qualities from the very first time you hear a decent system; possibly you won't even know PRaT has been assigned a name because you simply recognize it as how music is structured. Without some amount of PRaT music goes to pieces - literally. That's part of what makes one component better than another - not a spec sheet. If you want a forum that believes spec sheets are the thing, the only thing and the thing that matters, this ain't it. You can leave now. PRaT, tonality and timber and those other "perceptive" things not shown on a spec sheet aren't difficult concepts, JA, unless the only thing you know about audio and music is a spec sheet. You can't hear PRaT by looking at a spec sheet, for the most part, it just ain't there. Some of it's in the power supply but it's not a spec that says, "This is where PRaT comes from." I assume that's why you don't have a clue about it. If you don't hear PRaT coming through a system, I would first suggest you put down your pieces of paper and go listen to some live music. We've been through this many times on this forum before you butted in so I'm not going to spend lots of time explaining this to you. If you don't hear PRaT at all, that's your perception - or rather lack of perception. If I perceive PRaT and expect to be shown a system that tracks what I hear in live music, I don't want some punkassed salesperson telling me it doesn't exist and I don't need it. I don't need to be shown measurements if I want a system that sounds as close as possible to live music. Understand that, JA? I kinda doubt it, you're pretty tied to those measurements as proof of what you can hear. If you don't hear it, it's not my responsibility to educate you. If I expect a system to replicate live music and I hear PRaT in live music, then I expect someone to show me a system with PRaT and not give me an argument. If you lack the perceptive capability to follow the pacing, rhythm and timing of a piece of music, go get someone who knows what music should sound like and can hear when a system is good - and when it's not - to tell you what components manage to sound real when they are combined. Then, when someone comes in with the system requirement of PRaT, timbre and staging among other things, you can at least point to what you've been told has something they can listen through. Then turn on the music and shut up. . |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 61 Registered: Apr-08 | MR, thanks for the lesson in advanced audio marketing. "Sure, all electronic components are nearly perfect in time and phase, but ours have 'PRaT' and theirs doesn't, that will be $20,000 please"  |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 62 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan - couldn't answer my questions, except maybe one - that PRaT is simply something that you 'perceive', not hear. So, if you have this extra sensory perception and can hear what doesn't exist, you're better that us slobs that can't hear what doesn't exist. And, as we know, perception is reality and you're in another one. Glad we can agree on something finally, old chap. I can't wait til you tell your audiologist that you need hearing aids with "PRaT"  It kind of reminds me of the days demoing Xd for people and they'd say 'this system doesn't have bass, I can't hear the sub' [change music] 'WHOA!!!' Then someone else would say "It's too bright!" [change music] "WOW, so smooth!" "There's no soundstage!" [change music] "HOLY CRAP, it's a mile wide!!!!". Some systems flat out manufacture an effect, like "PRaT" so that you always hear it. But that effect doesn't exist in all recordings, only some. A really good system will simply reproduce what is on the disc, no more, no less. That's what I do. I'm an audio guy, not PT Barnum or David Copperfield. Some people, though, seem to be happier when ripped off because, in their mind, the magic trick keeps working because they paid so much money and want to keep it going. The more expensive the placebo, the better it works and longer it lasts. And, I guess, who am I to argue with what something thinks they hear? Maybe "perceiving" that your system sounds good is the same thing as sounding good, as long as no one puts it to a test. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 63 Registered: Apr-08 | BTW, guys, I have magic M&Ms that I can sell you that will up the PRaT in any system. Only $100 each, but WOW, what a difference. They look like regular M&Ms, but I have a special heating and cooling process that tunes them into your audio system so as to make the system come alive. We recommend at least 3 per speaker. A true bargain. 30 day money back guarantee. 31 day break in period. |
|
Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 863 Registered: Feb-07 | Isn't it time we wrapped this thread up and called it done? |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1924 Registered: Nov-05 | No one's ever going to make this dipshite understand. JA - go somewhere where they can hook up a NAD C542 and a Rega Apollo (or Saturn) or a Naim CDP (just as examples) through a decent amp and speakers and switch between the two as you listen. You'll be in for a surprise. If not, then give audio away because your ears are crapped! |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 64 Registered: Apr-08 | Been there, done that. What small differences there are in good components aren't worth the money when compared to other areas *and* are often not a matter of "it's more expensive, therefore better". Some of the more enjoyable components I've heard were some of the least expensive. Or, perhaps I just gave them special credit for sounding so good. Why don't you sign up for a DBT and prove to the world how fantastic your hearing is compared to mine. BTW, how exactly does one preserve PRaT when it goes to hell the moment it hits the crossover? No matter how good you *think* the "PRaT" of your source, preamp, amp is, it doesn't exist on the other side of the speaker. Not even close. Not that it matters, all the studies show we have little to no ability to hear it outside of our desire to hear it. As I mentioned to Jan, I guess if you think you are hearing PRaT, you are perceiving it, even if it's not there. So, enjoy away, if your imagination puts a smile on your face, keep imagining. Just don't expect everyone else to spend stupid amounts of money for nothing. |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 246 Registered: Jul-07 | JA, why don't you take your DBT BS away and stop hiding behind it. You're in Albuquerque (alledgedly) which is really rather convenient. I have a NAD 542 and would gladly take the DBT with my CI Audio DAC in the loop and out. I'll flat out guarantee I'll tell you when it's in, and when it's out, and take your money. However, you're unlikely to make the trip, and I could care less whether you believe it or not. You don't listen. You're likely tone deaf. You're trying to tell people it is illegal to use a descriptor which means something to them, but not to you. Because it doesn't mean anything to you, doesn't mean it can't mean something to someone else. You don't get to say what other people perceive. Sorry to burst your bubble. To be truthful, the term never meant much to me. I described it differently, in language that I can relate to. But I can do the conversion to someone elses terminology...it's not that hard. So they say PRaT, I think something else. I know what they mean. If you don't get it, that's fine. Stop trying to bully people into your views. We don't agree with you. If you haven't convinced anyone by now, surely you must understand you aren't going to. For cryin' out loud, it's a word. Take your ego out for a walk, and blow the stink off. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 65 Registered: Apr-08 | Chris - how much less could you care? Oh, *couldn't* care less, I get ya. Guess why outboard DACs have higher voltage outputs than the typical CD player? So that when you switch them on, you can hear more midrange detail, better bass, more vibrant highs. Even the soundstaging gets bigger and better. Same reason high-end products often used balanced outputs with an additional, typically, 6dB gain. Guess what happens when you level match them? Bye, bye most or all of the differences. It's one of the best, easiest tricks in the book. And since I'm on the 'inside', I get to see a lot of the tricks used on consumers. I just fail to use them against people, which, surprisingly, angers the people who liked the trick and fell for it. Fortunately, I make most of my money doing really nice HTs for people, so I don't have to dick around much with the Kool-Aid people much any more. Of course, that DAC looks kinda nice, so maybe I'll get one to replace the Sonos' internal cheap analog outputs I've been forced to use to see if there's a difference. I didn't know that Nova Scotia was so close to ABQ, I'd have visited earlier. |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 247 Registered: Jul-07 | "So that when you switch them on, you can hear more midrange detail, better bass, more vibrant highs. Even the soundstaging gets bigger and better. Same reason high-end products often used balanced outputs with an additional, typically, 6dB gain. Guess what happens when you level match them? Bye, bye most or all of the differences." You can adjust the gain any way you like. It won't change anything. As a matter of fact, with the NAD cdp the differences are more obvious the louder you turn it up. I could still pick it out. You could set the NAD up with the 6db advantage if you like, I'd still hear the difference. And let me see, the output voltage of the CIAudio DAC is 2.25 and the NAD 541i is 2.20. So that's 6db is it ? Interesting. Make the trip if you like. Bring your money. Until then, put a cork in it. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 66 Registered: Apr-08 | The 6dB difference is typical of balanced as I explained in the above paragraph. |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1925 Registered: Nov-05 | And since I'm on the 'inside', I get to see a lot of the tricks used on consumers Gee whiz everyone, we'd better shut up. JA is on the 'inside', he's in the 'know', he's in the CIA of audio. Talk about arrogant! Been there, done that. What small differences there are in good components aren't worth the money when compared to other areas *and* are often not a matter of "it's more expensive, therefore better". Got nothing to do with expense JA - it was to do with listening. Sorry, but at least now we realise you can't do that. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 70 Registered: Apr-08 | If knowledge = arrogance, then fine, I accept the title. I'm quite sure I've listened to more products and system in the last 15 years than you will ever have heard in your lifetime. |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1926 Registered: Nov-05 | That might be true JA. Trouble is you might listen, but you just can't hear. If knowledge = arrogance, then fine, I accept the title. No, knowledge does not equate to arrogance. Arrogance is, in part, the way one imparts one's knowledge. Not in the "my opinion is the only one that counts" manner unless you can prove it and do so without being a pompous a*se. People with knowledge have usually learnt from education, experience, from mistakes and from others. They are usually open to listen to things others have experienced and not put down what they can't experience for themselves. You are full of your own hot air JA. You should sign yourself up for the great balloon festival in Albuquerque and float away. David Mitchell is right, we should wrap up this thread. You've become far too boring for entertainment value anyway. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 71 Registered: Apr-08 | Don't forget to tuck your tail. |
|
Bronze Member Username: BetamaxCanada Post Number: 45 Registered: May-07 | I initially though John was legit, now I see that he's just here to get a rise out of people. Nothing you can say will sway him; he's smart enough to know something but not smart enough to know the limits of that knowledge. Arguing with him is like fighting a tar man, win or lose you end up covered in his black filth. Must be a slow month down at the Stereo Hut. |
|
Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10081 Registered: Dec-04 | Uhh, the 6db reduction in the noise floor is kinda nice in fully balanced transformer based systems as well. David, M.R., I hit snooze, but it is still going on...sigh. Let it die, folks, JA doesn't listen or hear so very well. JA, stick with high end HT, it's best for you, I think. Is NAD high end HT? |
|
Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10082 Registered: Dec-04 | That was an honest question, BTW. |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1405 Registered: Jun-07 | NAD AVR's I would consider High End HT. Their two channel stuff...ahhhhhh Mid level.lol. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 73 Registered: Apr-08 | Frank, I'm quite legit, though all this "front end first" crap is not. Nuck, that's assuming you get a 6dB increase in noise floor. The NAD AVR would really be upper mid-fi as would most *any* AVR at best. The NAD M15 preamp, I would consider that to be high-end. Very minimalist, most all attention paid to sound. Nick the 2-channel stuff is clearly entry level high-end. Not to many people would argue that point, but it all depends on your definition of what is high-end and what is not. An integrated amp is almost automatically high-end unless it is heavily compromised or like something you'd get in a rack system. BTW, Nick, we have a bunch of competitors who claim to be high-end, but when I hear their systems, I have to fix a lot of the problems with it, like ditching glass tables or putting a rug int he right place or moving the speakers or putting up an absorbent panel. Most of these guys know how to convince people to buy the *gear*, but they don't know anything about how to get the *result*, even with ridiculous sums of money. We do. Most of my HT systems sound better than most of their pure stereo systems. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12491 Registered: May-04 | . Lil'fishy - As Nuck points out the advantage of balanced circuitry throughtout a component is a -6dB reduction in S/N ratios. You mistake it for +6dB of gain. There's a very big difference. No engineer looks at a reduction in S/N as an increase in gain. Putting more gain into an input circuit does not change tonality - or soundstaging - which is just some ridiculous idea you want to plant in soemone's head to get them to follow you. And your desire to portray DAC's as inherently dishonest is misguided and uninformed and what I expect from someone who finds it easier to sell less expensive product by dishing out some BS story to your customer and then doing them a "favor" and you a quick sale. Words, lil'fishy, words. No context. You go on thinking I couldn't answer those questions. It'll make you feel better about what you don't know, which is a lot. I don't intend to sit here and jump when lil'fishy says, "Let's play my game." I don't come here for your entertainment. You are a bag of hot air. But you are entitled to be a bag of hot air. You can spout your misguided opinions all day if you like. But I draw the line at the crap you've tried to pass off as fact. You won't get by with BS like, "It kind of reminds me of the days demoing Xd for people and they'd say 'this system doesn't have bass, I can't hear the sub' [change music] 'WHOA!!!' Then someone else would say "It's too bright!" [change music] "WOW, so smooth!" "There's no soundstage!" [change music] "HOLY CRAP, it's a mile wide!!!!". Some systems flat out manufacture an effect, like "PRaT" so that you always hear it. But that effect doesn't exist in all recordings, only some." You brush everything off as perception and incorrect perception at that. You know what I should hear better than I do. It's the same story I've always heard from people who don't listen. Hearing something as too bright is not the same as knowing what music sounds like. Surely you know that and just conflated this with PRaT to distract from your other mistruths. Music has PRaT and cannot exist with any quality without it. You should have learned that in first grade, you know, elements of music class. Pace and rhythm are the foundation of music. HOw do you propose they can be taken away and music still exist as music? They cannot! We hear the P&R in the lower frequencies, which have nothing to do in most cases with the effect of the crossover at 2-3kHz. Some designers have weird ideas about their speakers and they can easily manage to screw up the pacing of a speaker. That doesn't mean all speakers are screwed up. Those that lack pacing and rhythm are. Timing is throughout the music but is tied to the pacing and rhythm. Those are just facts about how music is constructed not some magic theory of hifi. What were you doing in first grade elements of music class, fishy? Some crossovers and poor driver/enclosure choices can destroy timing between drivers. It's easy to hear once you become familiar with live music. What gets really screwed up is when you relay on a spec sheet instead of your ears to tell you what music sounds like. That's you, isn't it, fishy? Got lots of numbers can't hear anything. And in your opinion neither should I since you can't. Depending upon the music you prefer, there may not be much PRaT since recording techniques can easily destroy the interplay between musicians when they are not playing at the same time in the studio or the recording is highly processed after the stuido work is done. We've been through this multiple times, fishy, so once again I'm not going to spend a lot of time on what you don't know. If you confuse bad recordings with system problems, you are off base by a mile. If bad recordings are what you use to judge a system's quality, you are just plain dumb. Bad recordings do not prove no one requires more than NAD. System and recording problems do not translate into all systems being unable to reproduce a well made recording. Here's where the rubber meets the road; you just don't talk about listening to music, fishy. You want to prove everything by some numbers you can pull out of your @ss and then shake them in our face. Now here again you have the right to look at your numbers. I just don't care about your numbers since you can't put them togetehr to make a point. Most of your numbers are meaningless and all of them are meaningless when pulled out of context as you like to do. I get the feeling you don't really listen to music. Most people who've been through dozens of systems don't hear the music, they hear the system and in the case of people who believe numbers tell them all they need to know, they never even hear what the system can actually do. Your arrogance is in believing what you like is good enough for everyone. That's a sales lesson I'm not interested in making since you aren't interested in listening. PRaT exists in music just as soundstaging and timbre and lots of other things do. None of them can be found on a spec sheet. You have to know what you're listening for and want to hear the system reproduce what you hear in live music. It's knowledge of what you buy a system to accomplish. Numbers people even still argue about whether imaging and soundstaging can exist in a recroding since they don't hear it in live music. That's fine if you do not perceive these things, but to argue that what you hear is what I \[must also} hear is arrogant and stupid. That's where all of your mumbo jumbo is flawed, fishy. You are arrogant because you won't sell your clients what they might want. You won't educate them in how to hear music. You are stupid because you'll throw BS numbers at them in an attempt to stop them from hearing. Yep, I've worked with you. You get your opinions however misguided they are. It is extremely rude, however, to suggest you know what products amount to all someone else can hear. It is peevish and childish to take a swipe at someone's system and tell them they are gullible if they spend more than you could justify. And you and I are not going to get along on this forum if that's your approach to hifi. . |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1406 Registered: Jun-07 | "BTW, Nick, we have a bunch of competitors who claim to be high-end, but when I hear their systems, I have to fix a lot of the problems with it, like ditching glass tables or putting a rug int he right place or moving the speakers or putting up an absorbent panel. Most of these guys know how to convince people to buy the *gear*, but they don't know anything about how to get the *result*, even with ridiculous sums of money. We do. Most of my HT systems sound better than most of their pure stereo systems." I agree that room acoustics is probably 60 percent of the battle. I recently did an A/B with two different receivers, and a A/B test with three different power amps at my place using the same speakers and source( My Rega Apollo, Paradigm Studio MOnitors) The changes were very noticeable every time I changed out the power amps. A huge difference was made when I replaced the T763 with a H/K 635. I wasn't the only one that heard it. Six other people heard it as well. Even my wife.lol. Changing the speakers might change things even more of course. Room placement and acoustic treatment being the largest contribution to the sound. Can't wait to move in a month. I will have a much better room. |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 260 Registered: Mar-04 | "id - Not one damnthing you've posted has made any sense. Get back on the meds". RIGHT AWAY Dr. Vinge. One Thorazine big gulp coming right up, oh thank heaven. Na Zdrowie! |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 75 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, still insane, I see. You speak as if looking in a mirror. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12492 Registered: May-04 | . fishy - Still stupid, I note. You speak as if your head is in a dark place. |
|
Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 70 Registered: Jul-05 | adnm???? |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 261 Registered: Mar-04 | Whew, thank you for your advice Jan. I asked you a question before, (when I was lucid) why is it you question the validity of DBT. You have never answered that and I think it is a simple and fair question. I don't know either way so I am curious as John finds it useful and you do not, please expand on your initial thoughts. Also I mentioned and this is really an opinion, your statements as to what is and is not appropriate on this forum. I don't know why you have anointed yourself the moral arbiter here but it's a bit of a stretch, actually it hypocritical. Well, I hope you answer these questions in the same good faith as they were put to you. |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 262 Registered: Mar-04 | Oh, hey Jan I know you are a Mac guy, have you seen the 6600 integrated yet? Very spiffy! John, I admire your indomitable spirit. How fortunate this forum is to have you here, bravo! |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12493 Registered: May-04 | . DBT's are "either/or" tests which reduce the listener to answers that are no better than the laws of probability. You end up testing the listener and not the equipment. DBT's are fine for some items but not for audio components which are a medium through which program material is judged. If you DBT test pain relievers, you don't ask the test subject to evaluate the efficacy of the bottle the pill comes in. DBT's are also poorly suited for audio since audio components work as a system. You end up evalutaing the ability of any one component to pair well with other pre-determined components, which makes another set of components a different test. DBT's are not designed to take into acccount the variables of an audio system's performance. Drawing evaluations from just one set of components can lead you in the right direction if, as JA says his "silly" clients can do, you can distinguish the basic character of a component paired with others. If none of the components are ones that would please you on a long term basis, then you'll probably never give a fair test to any one of the components no matter how many times you DBT them. A system with Sony, NAD and Klipsch would be impossible for me to evaluate. If you are familiar with the sound of live music, you can go along way toward hearing what a single component can do when a substitute is made. However, in almost all formal DBT's you will be using information you have probably never heard before and which might not be to your taste. The point of a music system should be to make a connection between the listener and the music - to replicate what the listener hears and experiences in a live music setting. DBT's tend to make the listener evaluate the music and not the component. If time restrictions are applied to any listening test, the time factor brings another dissimilarity to the "test" that is not in place when the time element is removed. That's a start for why DBT's are inappropriate for audio gear. . |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 76 Registered: Apr-08 | DBTs aren't for testing audio gear, it's for testing someone's ears and arrogance to see if they're worth a damn or whether they just have a vivid imagination. Thank god this is audio where no one will get hurt and not a medical forum. |
|
Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 71 Registered: Jul-05 | John, I admire your indomitable spirit. How fortunate this forum is to have you here, bravo! "A guy i knew" Uh huh oh my it was you ! Carry on Johnny mmmmmmm.....partners??? |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 263 Registered: Mar-04 | Brilliant zooro, keep moving the ball down the field! |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12495 Registered: May-04 | . "DBTs aren't for testing audio gear, it's for testing someone's ears and arrogance to see if they're worth a damn or whether they just have a vivid imagination." The arrogance remains in the fact you do not accept what other's tell you their ears perceive and apparently use your ears less than any other bodily function. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 78 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, i believe that you believe what you hear is real. But I don't buy or sell audio gear on beliefs. You *prove* that you can hear what you think you can and I'll start selling overpriced European gear. I use my brain more than any other bodily function, you should try it some time. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12496 Registered: May-04 | . "But I don't buy or sell audio gear on beliefs. You *prove* that you can hear what you think you can and I'll start selling overpriced European gear." You dumbf*ck! You're in sales! The customer does not have to prove to you they can perceive anything other than your stupidity and arrogance by walking out the door and never coming back. You are there to serve the client. Have you had any sales training? The second thing any sales process includes is a "qualification" phase. In qualifying a client you find out what they want - what they want!!! - and why they believe they want that quality. You do not just impose your will on a customer. If a client tells you they are focussed on a particular quality, you show them what they want. You don't smart off to them and tell them they can't hear any of those "beliefs" that go with "high priced European products". Cripes, what a jerk! Maybe they own high priced European products! fishy, you are a f*ckin' idiot! Yep, I've worked with you and hated every minute of it. Every post proves you are an insufferable jerk who uses his brain to sit on most of the day until you can beat up a customer and give decent sales people a bad name. Find another profession. . |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 80 Registered: Apr-08 | I have had a TON of sales training, marketing, advertising but i don't need to use Jedi mind tricks on people when I have actual good gear. None of my customers would be gullible enough to take you seriously. When a customer actually says "I want to get something that makes no difference and costs an assload of money", I will sell him really bad gear, but they always tell me about wanting really good performance for a reasonable amount of money. |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2675 Registered: May-05 | "When a customer actually says "I want to get something that makes no difference and costs an assload of money", I will sell him really bad gear..." Do you carry B&O and Bose for when he shows up? |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 81 Registered: Apr-08 | Only in the used department |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12499 Registered: May-04 | . "I have had a TON of sales training" You just didn't listen. I've never had any sales training that stressed the importance of arguing with a customer. And I've never had any sales training that suggested constantly down selling a client was good for you, the client or the store. What a jerk! . |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 82 Registered: Apr-08 | Exactly the point. Sales training teaches you how to convince people to buy whatever it is you're selling, be it property in the Everglades or a tropical island paradise in Nevada. Once I went through these courses, I was disgusted by the manipulation. You, however, seem to think that anyone who doesn't shine you on is a jerk. I don't 'down sell', I find out what a customer would enjoy and their budget and sell them the best *performing* system I can, not the most full of pixie dust one. I think its funny that you prefer people that feed your delusions and happily take your money to anyone talking common sense (or as my wife says, "the least common of all the senses") |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12502 Registered: May-04 | . "Once I went through these courses, I was disgusted by the manipulation." ROTFL Yep, you didn't listen. fishy, you've given me enough information now. I know what's going on with you. You - can't - hear!!! You don't know enough about music to hear rhythm and you don't know enough about equipment to know what you should be listening for. So you're p!ssed at people who can hear. Yep! I've worked with people like you, I've sold to people like you and I've cleaned up the messes people like you have made. fishy - You need to get your head out of those little bits of words that you've memorized and learn how to listen to music! Geez!!! . |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1260 Registered: May-06 | "Jan, still insane, I see. You speak as if looking in a mirror." "still", as Wiley would post? What relation to "still" could someone with less than a week on a forum have? I think Nuck and Stu are right. |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 264 Registered: Mar-04 | fishy?! Jan, I am impressed. Pet names are a sign of affection. We have gone from dumbf*ck!, f*ckin' idiot, and jerk to fishy. I knew you would come around sooner or later. John is a credit to the audio community. Your warming to him the way you have is your way of agreeing with me. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 84 Registered: Apr-08 | Sadly, no relation to Wiley, but if he gave Jan heartburn, I'd love to meet him. Jan, you can say you can hear better than me all you want but there's no evidence to support it, any more than there is to indicate you can tell the difference between a Sony receiver and a Naim. So, when you pass a true DBT that proves you can hear even half of what you think you can, I'll do a public "all hail Jan". |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12503 Registered: May-04 | . I never said I could hear better than you, I said you can't hear at all. The rest is simple logic. Send the Naim, I'll tell you what I hear. Weren't you paying attention when I explained DBT's? You spend a lot of your time not paying attention, don't you? . |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 85 Registered: Apr-08 | I don't pay too much attention to the insane clown posse. |
|
Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 72 Registered: Jul-05 | New Mexico Audio/Video Forum Marker Guest Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: Stereophile M3 Review -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://nadelectronics.com/reviews/Stereophile-M3-Review John Ashman Joined: 29 Oct 2006 Posts: 196 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:19 am Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Too bad it's meaningless outside of the measurements. I mean, really, look at the measurements of the speaker that it was driving. How would he know what the M3 even sounds like "The M3 Mesures better than the B-60" blah blah blah Johnny, You are something else. You really don't expect to be taken seriously do ya? |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 265 Registered: Mar-04 | Zorro, in what way's do you feel the B-60 betters the NAD M3. Your a serious guy and I am interested to hear your thoughts? |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 88 Registered: Apr-08 | You have the name "Zorro" and you think people take *you* seriously? |
|
Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 73 Registered: Jul-05 | Your a serious guy did you mean "you're"? not a good speller, are ya? You have the name "Zorro" and you think people take *you* seriously well, yes sir! I do! Zorro, in what way's do you feel the B-60 betters the NAD M3 Though question, Well, let me think, the M3 measures better, PRaT is not even an issue and sound wise we have no idea since we have not heard them side by side so, after all, I guess the M3 is much better simply because it is better looking, and is heavenly powerful. Don't you guys agree? |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 89 Registered: Apr-08 | I'd settle for "as good, but different" |
|
Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 74 Registered: Jul-05 | you know I was joking, right? |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 90 Registered: Apr-08 | Sarcastic, maybe. |
|
Bronze Member Username: ZorroPost Number: 75 Registered: Jul-05 | enough of me being so silly. You guys are funny. See ya |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1417 Registered: Jun-07 | Im a fan of the NAD M3. I have heard it many times. I have also heard the Bryston B-60 a few times now. The sound presentation of the B-60 is better. The M3 will be able to handle a much tougher load, yes. 60 Watts a channel (I believe the B60 is 60watts a channel) is enough power to easily power the majority of loud speakers to high volumes. You take that power amp that NAD has in the M Series and A/B it against a new Bryston 4b Pro, and the Bryston will slam it. And last forever, oh and comes with a 20 year warranty, is build by hand in Canada. hmmmMMm I like NAD, have always stuck up for NAD on this forum. But when compared to Bryston, I am going to tell you right now, NAD is outclassed. Just one mans opinion. |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1418 Registered: Jun-07 | Again, Different will do. Depends on which one your ears like better. Some man prefer the M3. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12507 Registered: May-04 | . "I don't pay too much attention to the insane clown posse." Ya gotta love anyone with such distain for everything they didn't think of. fishy, if you hate professional sales so much, find another job. If you can't figure out sales training is meant to provide tools for everyone to use when they want, find another job, man. You don't listen, you can't hear, you know how to listen and you hate your profession. What a life! You can't find another job that would allow you to be such a pain, eh? John Ashman Joined: 29 Oct 2006 Posts: 196 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:31 am Post subject: mattwardfh wrote: Yes, I haven't been keeping up with John's altercations like I used to. John, you need a blog... if you think you can write without having contentious idiots to respond to. Hey, I am nothing without an adversary! What's a hero without his arch enemy? I am Dr Venture and need my Monarch A hero! That's as good as thousands of degrees of phase. ROTFLMAO Why'd you show up here, fishy, when you got your own little forum to moderate? Did you think we needed your help? We don't. . |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 91 Registered: Apr-08 | Nick, that's my only point. The M3 is measurably fantastic, is built like a tank and is extremely well engineered. So it can't be truly 'outclassed' by a Bryston. You may greatly prefer the Bryston, but others will greatly prefer the NAD. And some will find both equally good but different. I'm just saying that it makes a whole lot more sense to say "I really prefer the Bryston", rather than "Bryston is better", because no one can argue with that. If you claim Bryston will 'slam' the NAD, then I say show me the obviously better measurements or let's put together a DBT, get 10 or 20 volunteers and see what the results are. But if you say you really love Bryston over NAD, hey, that's just what you like, whether it's based on a small difference, a big difference or no difference, it doesn't matter. |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2678 Registered: May-05 | Which one is flatter and more extended? Bryston B60  NAD M3  |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 94 Registered: Apr-08 | Depends. The NAD extends higher, the Bryston extends lower. keeping in mind they were testing the NAD at +10dB which is f'n cranked! That's 30dB over what i listen to mine at, not sure how they measured the Bryston. They're virtually identical otherwise Which one has 1/10 the distortion? The NAD. Which one has 3 times the power? The NAD. Which one has mo'better hookups? The NAD. Which one has more capability? The NAD. Which one has better cooling? The NAD. |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1419 Registered: Jun-07 | John- Giving that you claim the Bryston and NAD have the same measurements, why do they sound completely different in every aspect??? Based on the two reviews that these measurements are pulled from, the reviewers definitely sound like they preferred the Bryston. Again, I am not saying some may not prefer the sound provided by the M3. It is a good amp. But based on these measurements, the Bryston and NAD should sound the same? But they don't, they sound totally different. Which one SOUNDS better to you? Have you heard the B60? Just curious. Also, as I read through some of the reviews on Rotel and Onkyo and such, it appears that some of the Measurements on a cheap 600 dollar Rotel appear to be the same as the M3. Huh, well I guess the Rotel definitely sounds as good as the M3, or well, the same as the M3? |
|
Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 266 Registered: Mar-04 | Your a serious guy did you mean "you're"? not a good speller, are ya? Thanks zippo, I meant you are actually, thanks for the correction. But you did not answer my question, you simply commented on a spelling error. Would you like to try to answer my initial question? |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12511 Registered: May-04 | . "One of the worst-kept secrets in audio engineering is that what we hear does not always correlate with what we measure." As the magazine continued to add standardized measurements to its reviews, I had to pen various cautionary notes in response to criticisms from both "objectivists" and "subjectivists": "Those who place their belief in measurements alone should remember that it is still the experience itself that matters, not the description of the experience, no matter how thorough or well-researched that description," I wrote in November 1990, adding in February 1996 that "The integration of measurements into Stereophile's equipment reviews is not to describe or replace the listening experience--that is, and probably will always be, impossible. Without listening, there is no way, for example, of measuring something as universally perceptible as the quality of a stereo soundstage." http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/398awsi/index.html Atkinson has been very consistent in how he measures from the first measurements appearing in Stereophile till today. Power bandwidth should be measured at half power for all amplifiers. But to think the static measurements into a purely resistive load actually mean anything is fairly ludicrous. And, fishy, if you tell me you know more about this than Heyser or Atkinson, I'll travel to New Mexico just to smack some sense into you. Guys, this my amp's flatter than your's or my amp has less T.H.D. than your's proves nothing. Particularly if you just can't hear. And you know who relies on measurements to prove their stuff is better or your stuff is not as good? People who can't hear. . |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1420 Registered: Jun-07 | I can pick out three or four integrated amps on stereophile, that show to have almost the same measurements. I have heard all four of these amps and none of them sound close to the same to my ears. I guess what people prefer is another story. |
|
Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10095 Registered: Dec-04 | Who gives a sh!t about THD? It is meaningless. And antiquated. |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics