Archive through April 25, 2008
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1068 Registered: May-06 | This is a thread for "newbies", however anybody can gain something from it provided that the old dawgs as well as the usual suspects are willing to share. What I am hoping is that everyone will share and contribute. Think of this as akin to brainstorming where no input is up for criticisms. Jan got me thinking about this with her challenge to us as to "Why source first?". Why, because we speak from experience for the most part. Who better to regal in all our glory, set-backs, triumphs, embarrassments, enjoyments, and frustrations in our audiophile journeys? Everyone who reads this has done something to enable themselves to enjoy the sound they listen to and being here implies that one worked at it to some degree at least. "worked at it to some degree at least" is what I think we can contribute to newbies. No I am not saying we should put together an encyclopedia of what is right and wrong because what is right for me might be wrong for you. Yet if we both post our opposite efforts a reasoned reader may try both and find one to their liking. Allow me a minor digression please. Another thing that got me thinking about this is that I leant a good friend of mine, Jim, my Sennheisers with the Cardas cables and I told him he should hear an improvement over his Bose noise canceling cans. He did not. I believe him. You and I would have heard it to be sure. The reason Jim thought he did not hear a difference was not because he did not think his were better than mine. He said he is not an experienced listener so to him the subtleties and nuances were not to be found. That sort of stuck with me. We often offer our opinions to newbies and each other about what certain gear should sound like, what they should consider purchasing, how it works for us or how we heard it. What if they are like Jim and cannot hear what we hear when we suggest something to them? Why not tell them how it is we got to where we could offer that opinion? That way it may be reasonable for them to contemplate even if they have not gotten to the level we are in what we hear. In no way am I suggesting anything more than I used to have to A/B, A/B, A/B, A/B for several minutes on some changes or tweaks I would make. Now I can pretty much pick up that subtleties in seconds with a single A/B. Another example is Nuck can hear the intricacies of a drummers timing and beat at a level foreign to me. Jan can capture the cohesiveness of a presentation and its overall musicality better than anyone I ever met. Newbies for the most part probably cannot do these things like we can. I pretty much have an idea of where Jan's opinions come from, as well as Nuck's, and I can make an educated guess as to where Frank's offerings come from, but I cannot say that for more than maybe one or two more of us. Again, this is just why do you have the kit / system you have now, how did you get there, what did you do to tweak it. I certainly do not expect anyone to relate this all in one post of course. Perhaps I will post something about how I treated my room and that might generate a few additional offerings. Someone may discuss their tribulations with cartridges which may be unique and not gain any other follow ups. There is no expectations or requirements. If newbies knew why we moved to separates or thought power conditioners were needed it would be beneficial to their making a reasoned decision and easier for them to move forward to whatever we post that strikes them as most relative. I for one have no idea what someone may find relative or not, but I am willing to put it out there for consideration. That's about as simple as I could make it. If I am covering old ground just let me know where we have this already, other than spread out over the entire forum. A forum member, Thorsten, asked about good music recently and someone sent him a link to "Your reference library". Bingo. That is what I envision this to be for newbies wading into the audiophile waters. |
|
Gold Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 1060 Registered: Nov-06 | I learned from all the mistakes I have made in equipment matching (ex: trying to mate klipsch speakers to an onkyo receiver). I also have friends and relations that still play instruments (sax and guitar, my two main vices, I know how they sound unamped and hear them frequently) my fiancee is also a sax player, but has not picked hers up in some time. It is all a learning experience. For me, the start of it all was finding out what NOT to do, because I already did it and couldn't figure out why the sound was bad. Thanks to you all here, I have learned that equipment synergy is only part of the equation, and have discovered a hobby that I never may have found a passion for :-P I made the move to separates because of the improvement in sound quality when doing a cost benefit analysis. The integrated amp currently in my system simply sounds better than a similarly priced receiver. I do have a Cambridge Soundworks 730 when I want to listen to the radio nearby. |
|
Gold Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 1061 Registered: Nov-06 | wow... I am dead to the world... I will return to this when I am more awake and read the original post more coherently. |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1071 Registered: May-06 | Gavin, inre your 2nd post: "Think of this as akin to brainstorming where no input is up for criticisms." Nice start with your first post! I too am where you are at and will offer up a contribution another day. |
|
Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 523 Registered: Nov-05 | My honest opinion on this is simple. If you dont attend live concerts or shows, or, are not a musician personally, the nuances really dont matter as much as those that frequent live events, or play an instrument. Most people, including many of my friends, see, and hear what my system does, but dont understand WHY it sounds so good, or why I went through the trouble to put it together the way I did. And, although it impresses them, they have no desire, or passion to do the same. Most people want "the best in this price range", which means so many different things, but to the average Joe, it means how loud does it go? Some, like Andre (no offense meant here) just want alot of bass, others want to hear the guitar solo, and how well that particular instrument is presented. Is it wrong? Nope, just a preference. But, when a system is truly symetrical, and balanced, even if a guy loves it, and would love to have it, does not mean that he will go out to pursue it. |
|
Gold Member Username: Arande2Rattle your ... Missouri Post Number: 2807 Registered: Dec-06 | I'd like to ask that you not make assumptions, although it's pretty easy to assume from my former words that I like a lot of bass. You would have to meet me in person to know for sure.  Thanks. |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1072 Registered: May-06 | So Andre, what would your contribution be, albeit not making assumptions about anything is a good start? |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1073 Registered: May-06 | david, I have had similar reactions from friends who have heard my system, except if they happen to be musicians. They get it! Others will come up to listen to it whenever they come over (maybe because I make them LOL) and ask for their favorite artist ect. Heck, Marsh does not get it but she will listen remotely in the house. The fact that someone comes to us to me means they might want a little bit more than how loud does it go, but if that is what they want we should be able to help them with that too. Thanks for your input! |
|
Gold Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 1062 Registered: Nov-06 | a clean, cohesive midrange is most appealing to me now. When I first started, I was drawn to the speakers that had the "boom and sizzle" curve built in. As my ear changed, I learned that wasn't what I was looking for. I agree with Mike and Dave on the reaction. My mother loves my Paradigm Atoms because of the warm, smooth sound. They simply sound more like real music to her. When my cuz was playing her sax during our Christmas get-together, she told me that the recording sounded almost as good as the real thing. I really believe having relatives that play musical instruments, and hearing them often has played a key part in what I am looking for in midrange reproduction. Of course, the treble can't be brittle and the bass can't be flabby or loose. |
|
Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 600 Registered: Feb-07 | I have to agree with Gavin - a good midrange is most important to me now that I have developed a better ear to what sounds good (to me). I discovered this when I recently purchased my Monitor Audio speakers to replace my Paradigms. When I first bought the Paradigms a couple of years ago I thought they were the cats meow, but after living with them over time the sound of them changed to me and I did not enjoy them anymore. That brings me to another point. It seems to me, the longer you are in this hobby, the more critical and picky one becomes. The reasoning here is that when you first start out (unless you are a musician in the first place, with a well developed sense of what sounds "right") you have no idea what sounds good. When I first started out in this hobby (I am still a relative newcomer) I thought my old Kenwood receiver and Yamaha speakers sounded fantastic. If I went back and listened to that now I'd probably think "holy crap, that sounds like sh!t". |
|
Gold Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 1063 Registered: Nov-06 | David, I also have switched speakers... The first to go were Bose. Although, I don't really mind the '01 series. Good sounding among the KLH and Sony stuff they are sold next to... However sound like crap next to kef, klipsch, and athena (kef is now sold at CC...found out after I bought mine) The first pair of "decent" speakers I heard were Bose 301's. First pair I owned were 201's. |
|
Gold Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 1064 Registered: Nov-06 | now I own kef, after switching out my maggies due to room integration issues. My maggies are boxed up at my mothers house in central NY, in a closet in my old bedroom. I won't part with them right now. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12188 Registered: May-04 | . https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/441498.html https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/431447.html |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12189 Registered: May-04 | . Might as well; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/435932.html |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1074 Registered: May-06 | Ideal links Jan. Anybody who is serious about wanting a system that works should be more than willing to take the time to read through them. Heck I just took the time to read through them and I had already read them each once before. Plus posting the links beats the pants off of having to type all that out again here. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12200 Registered: May-04 | . https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/438742.html |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12266 Registered: May-04 | . https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/447247.html |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1183 Registered: Jun-07 | "Jan got me thinking about this with her challenge to us as to "Why source first?"" Ok...ok...hold up...Jan, are you a guy or girl? lol sorry I have always called u a guy, and Mike just said you were a girl. I am confused. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9785 Registered: Dec-04 | I think the term is 'experienced audio specialist'. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12268 Registered: May-04 | . I've never listed the contents of any of my audio systems in my forum profile since I don't believe the equipment I possess should be of any consequence to an on line discussion. You can judge what I say on the basis of what I say not what components I use. I will tell you I have stood side by side with a salesman who was bright enough to think speakers completely stopped working when they were connected out of phase. After I explained how a component worked, the customer turned to Bubba and asked if my explanation was correct. . |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9786 Registered: Dec-04 | Bubba...hehehe... |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1184 Registered: Jun-07 | Damn right Jan is an expert, it totally doesn't matter if your female or male, I was just curious for own sake because Ive been calling you a dude this whole time. My bad. |
|
Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 677 Registered: Dec-06 | ummm, we have already established, through another thread, that Jan is really a rebadged Bob Smith. Now can we please move on before we wreck another decent thread? |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9787 Registered: Dec-04 | Just lighter. |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1185 Registered: Jun-07 | My bad Stryvn.... |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12269 Registered: May-04 | . My inputs and outputs are in a different location than BS's. Therefore ... |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9788 Registered: Dec-04 | That brings me to another point. It seems to me, the longer you are in this hobby, the more critical and picky one becomes. The reasoning here is that when you first start out (unless you are a musician in the first place, with a well developed sense of what sounds "right") you have no idea what sounds good. When I first started out in this hobby (I am still a relative newcomer) I thought my old Kenwood receiver and Yamaha speakers sounded fantastic. If I went back and listened to that now I'd probably think "holy crap, that sounds like sh!t". Yep. Exposure to live music and reading too much about stereo's does that to a person. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9789 Registered: Dec-04 | I tried to explain the hobby to a few people. Looked at me like I had 10 heads. |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1835 Registered: Nov-05 | When my brother visited last year, I had both the Apollo and the Naim CD51 in our system. I played one track on the Apollo then again on the Naim. It took him 30 secs to comment that the Naim was the more engaging of the two. I had thought the same, but it took quite a bit more than 30 secs for me. While I had realised that I did prefer the Naim, it really took me about two weeks to make the committment to sell the Apollo. Both made very good music for sure, but in the end I found that with the Naim I was really enjoying some cd's that beforehand I could take or leave. Upgrading from the NAD C162/C272 to the Musical Fidelity A5 was a slightly different experience in that the music became alive. I guess it was like I'd been listening with wax in my ears, like a dullness had disappeared. That's probably a slight exaggeration, but it's about the best way to describe the experience. The A5 is just a great piece of gear in my books, it delivers the slam when it's needed and has a clarity and richness without being forward. I took a bit of a risk getting it from a Singapore merchant on Ebay but it turned out for the best. I feel the same way about the Quads compared to the B&W's (602S3) I had previously - again it was like a dullness had been lifted. These things really sing once the right placement has been found (even when you think you have found it, keep experimenting because you may not have quite had it right after all). I still enjoy hi-res surround music, but admittedly play it less now because of (a) lack of new material and (b) the two channel gear is so satisfying anyway. My Marantz reciever has been delivering the goods for almost five years now without a hitch. It started life driving all speakers but now it only has center and surround duties. I use the NAD for 2 channel SACD/DVD-A, and for std def DVD movies. The Panasonic BD player is for HD movies and surround DVD-A, it doesn't upconvert std DVD as good as the M55 does so the NAD is staying with us. Having listened to Chris Botti's Blu-ray concert in 5.1 PCM I look forward to many more music titles. As far cables and interconnects go there hasn't been much around my area from which to compare. I had Radioshack type I/C's, to Monster to the Merlins I have now which are good enough to stop any thoughts of upgraditis in this area and speaker cables have been electrical wire to Monster 10g, to Kimber (2nd lowest one) to Kordz 14g Bi-wire to the Vanden Huls I have now which I find also very satisfying. The turntable is a different beast for me to explain (due to limited experience) and I find it appealing or I can take or leave it - I guess it depends on the disc quality. It's something I'm still fiddling with, but in all honesty, with late cd's or well remastered ones, I must say I find the Naim the more engaging when it comes to music. Source first? I think so - unless they are really crap, speakers in general should reveal the difference between a good source or a poor one. How much of a difference will depend on the quality of the speaker and the amplification and what the signals pass through. In what order - though I haven't had experince with a lot of gear, excluding room acoustics, I'd say source, speakers, amplification then cables. I guess if I'm honest when something new is introduced into the system I listen for differences such as smooth mids, clean, crisp highs, punchy controlled bass, good focussing and a spacious soundstage where I can imagine where the instruments and voclalists are placed, but in the end it's the music that decides. Right now it has that magical appeal of everything sounding like how it should sound so that I'm completely taken in. I feel there's not much point in trying to describe the differences in cables/I/C's or components because someone else could probably hear other things, I guess mine has been a journey of reading what some have written here on this forum, of reading reviews and listening to the bits and pieces that have caught my interest. Sometimes I have taken a chance (Ebay) where I could resell something if I didn't find it fitting in and playing well. It has cost some dough - unfortunately some real dough - but I don't regret it. Music has always been an important part of my life (both of our lives really) whether for social ambience or for complete relaxation, I have always loved it and I feel very blessed to be at a point where I feel I have things so right I'll be able to go on for many years with things just the way they are. But, I promise nothing. . |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1121 Registered: May-06 | Nice post M.R. I have something similar I want to post, except I am always to tired or too busy to put it together. It's coming sooner or later. |
|
Bronze Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 94 Registered: Dec-07 | Nice idea for a thread. I may be way off base, but I also have a challenge to those posting. Try and convey this with only generic reference to brand and model names. I believe the process of how various systems were conceived and have evolved is more important than the who replaced who. Some basic reference to cost is probably useful, though, because it gives a rough idea of how much was expended to achieve the upgrade. Many refer to specific mfrs and models when posting as though any idiot knows what they sound like. Most don't. Describe it without naming it, how you went from Point A to Point B, what the approximate or relative expenditure was, significant differences in the gear, and what difference it made in the system and to your ears. It's not easy, but I think it may be the essence of what this thread is really driving at. Hold brand/model name references for discussions of system synergy, where that king of thing matters. I have seen numerous threads with valuable discussions of what works with what, what doesn't, etc. There, the additional specifics of mfr/model may be useful, but not in the broader sense. Most newbies always jump to brand/model, usually without considering what they really want to hear, system synergy, how the system might logically evolve without having to replace everything, what to do first, what impacts the room has, etc. We see all the time those OP's that propose buying $4000 speakers and using a $50 DVD player and a $200 HT amp to run music through them. This is where links to relevant threads such as Jan has provided are worthwhile. It is frustrating for them because they are ready to buy, but they don't know what to buy or even how to determine what to buy. Worse, they often are not ready or receptive to learn how to go about things. This thread can provide some help in that regard. They need to think, and that's the hardest work to do. This thread, if I understand its purpose correctly, should be like the Karate Kid version of audio and we are Mr. Miyagi. So...show them wax on, wax off. |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 171 Registered: Jul-07 | I have found that a lot of people who are really into audio are very good "analysts". Logical, if not always practical. Left brained, sometimes to a fault. I include myself in this description. The irony in this is that music of course is not left brained, or logical. It is art, beauty, whimsy, emotion, fun, passion, or sadness. I was very lucky in my youth, having been exposed to music in number of different ways. I played piano for a time, played oboe in a concert band, alto sax in a jazz band, and even played sax in a military band. After a long hiatus during the raising of four children, I rediscovered music, and not long after, my stereo. I've also reengaged the musician in me, having started playing guitar not long ago when my daughter took it up. My understanding of music, what I like, and what it means to me is anchored in those early experiences. Although I typically will start any evaluation of how my stereo "sounds" or how some component in a showroom "sounds" with my usual analyst hat on, I try to catch myself and try to hear through the characteristics of the components and connect with the music. Nothing can snap me out of this any quicker than something that sounds completely wrong....whether it's a horn, a cymbal, a piano, etc. But once you've put together something that gets most things mostly right, most of the time, it is far easier to stay inside a musical performance without the rude interruptions (unless the kids are fighting). I have found that listening for the music first, and then if something strikes me as wrong, engage my logical side to try to determine what, works best as a process. If I try listening with my left brain, it is easy to miss the music. I have also found it very helpful to read a great deal, to gain an understanding of my goals with regards to hi fi. Some may wonder how that helps, since everyone evaluates and enjoys audio differently. What I have found is that it helps me understand what I have already heard. Something that seemed right, or didn't seem right that I couldn't explain or articulate at the time. Being armed with that understanding has helped me tremendously understand what I am likely to enjoy, and what I am likely not going to enjoy as much. Reading has also saved me a lot of money. If you know what you are looking for, there are more options out there than you may think. If you get rid of your biases you may find yourself getting better sound for far less money that you thought possible. I've certainly learned a thing or two from the folks here. |
|
Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 106 Registered: Dec-07 | Nice post, Chris. I find myself in retrospect having some similarities with you -- school band (clarinet), guitar player, very particular about a system's ability to "get it right" although I am still unable to articulate it very well. The past two months has been an awakening for me in terms of audio. I am going back and really enjoying my music. Before starting to build my system, I started to get back into guitar in more than a casual way about three years ago, and I think that started me again appreciating the sound of live music and high quality audio. And I have found the advice here on this forum to be very helpful. Too often, people are looking for a quick solution, or just want to buy something without really analyzing what they like, what their needs are or where they want to take their system. They get frustrated with posts that respond by inquiring why they are leaning the way they are, or suggesting that they take a different approach. I have been helped much more by what folks here have talked me out of, than what they have talked me into. I am never put off by someone that says "I cannot tell you what to do, but I can tell you what not to do." I am very interested in that because it saves me thousands of dollars and gets me to a much better, more satisfying system with far less frustration. |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1194 Registered: May-06 | Neil and Chris, nice contributions. I have been trying for some time to figure out how to contribute to this post in a meaningful manner. JV has been most helpful with the associated links provided, as have others with their posts previous. I got into "Hi-Fi" or so I thought because I wanted to hear music for different reasons than most. I can go listen to live music, but too often it is cover bands or small clubs without a good reference for what works. I have gone to symphonies and concerts as have most of us here. I have heard engineered studio recordings and "Live" recordings of artists too numerous to remember. Lately "Live" music works for me if it is non-amplified. Otherwise it can be a matter of what the "venue" or sound technician is coloring. Maybe it matches my paradigm, maybe it doesn't. This oration excludes venues where amplification is not used. I listen chiefly to amplified music. So it is nearly impossible to determine what sounds right. Don't get me wrong I have heard B.B. King and Muddy Waters in small setting Chicago night clubs, Chicago in concert at the original Arie Crown theater, several Orchestras, Jazz live in New Orleans, and piano bar singers making me swoon. All of these opportunities were impressionable on me. Where I find my reference or "comfort" of how something sounds dates back to listening to how my Grandfather's system played music. Some tuner, mostly albums is what he played. Philco turntable with Jensen speakers via tube amplification, mono, all self contained with tuner in his console. I once went on this Quixotic venture about 20 years ago to find the limit in a system to where I could no longer hear a difference if a better component was added. When I gave it up I think I was up to a single disc CD player with separate pre-amp and amp and could still discern differences at ~$10K worth of gear. At the time I had a Fisher receiver, Pioneer speakers, a Garrard TT, and a Sony Beta-max for a quasi reel to reel recorder. Technics was my choice for cassette recorder. I never truly enjoyed it other than it was better than what my friends and family had. My goal was to find a system I could enjoy, that would provide me at the same time the comfort of hearing something now as I heard it back when I was a little kid, yet give the chills when I hear a guitar riff or drum sequence as if I was the beneficiary of a private concert. This post is about why I bought my kit, what I was looking for and such. It is not about my kit, or the evolution of my kit. I will get to that in time. To me it starts with having a sense of where you want to go with what you want your system to do for you. Mostly, listen to live music is the bible to learning what you should expect from your system. I happened to have a Grandfather who had a wonderful appreciation for music and my understanding of what sounds good was developed a long, long, time ago. My point being is it has to sound right to you, it is your money you are investing, do what works for you. Just figure out what that is before you start spending your money. |
|
Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 116 Registered: Dec-07 | "Lately "Live" music works for me if it is non-amplified. Otherwise it can be a matter of what the "venue" or sound technician is coloring. Maybe it matches my paradigm, maybe it doesn't." Very true. Attending an amplified concert where all elements click is somewhat rare for me these days. I find some of the newer venues are horrendous. One thing I find myself doing before popping for the tickets is thinking critically about the venue. I cannot control the sound technician, but I can pass if it's a lousy venue for live music. |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1242 Registered: May-06 | Early into the experiment. It is late, I need to respect those asleep and play at low levels. Yet tonight is doesn't sound like low levels beyond the quietness of the volume. That is a result of JV offering to me the option of working with fiberglass bass traps, DIY version, in my listening room. I have done more than most of you would consider and due to that have really improved what my kit can deliver. Most of you have seen my kit on various other posts. Well, we have another "tweak". Betcha' most of you would not even try this. I have taken fiberglass, 13 batt, and rolled it up and stacked it up in the front corners of my room. I first removed the portable office cube panels that I thought could help with bass. Results were immediate and profound. Many songs are like I have never heard them before. I am listening, due to the hour, Elvis, Feist, Missy Higgins, Willie. Sweet! There is no way to convey in a single post the satisfaction achieved with a simple room change. (OK, maybe not so simple to all as my wife thinks my room is now a bio-hazard of sorts.) |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1906 Registered: Nov-05 | Betcha' most of you would not even try this. Yep! A lot of us don't have a big boy's room Mike. Here you go again, giving the girls more eye rolling material.  |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6689 Registered: Feb-05 | Most of us won't try it as our listening spaces are our living spaces as well. |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2632 Registered: May-05 | "OK, maybe not so simple to all as my wife thinks my room is now a bio-hazard of sorts." Do you actually expect us to believe she didn't think it was "a biohazard of sorts" a long time ago? I haven't seen it personally, but a picture is worth a 1,000 words. If I ever make it down to Wiley or Dallas, I definitely have to drop by. Any Division I colleges in Big D? My only Texas experience was A&M in College Station. |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1246 Registered: May-06 | With all due respect I think I can get this to the point where it could be appealing. Once I know I am done messing with the various things I am doing. I think that time, while not at hand, is getting near. There are some things I cannot hide, like speaker wires, and mine do not withdraw into the crowd if you know what I mean. My speakers are much further into the room than most of you too from the pics you have shared. So that may still be viewed negatively. But the bottom line is I invested in my system to enjoy it to its fullest and doing the things I am doing is getting me closer to that realization. I do understand the need compromise when utilizing a shared space, but to me that means further creativity is required to achieve some of these things. I could go out and spend about $300 - $400 each for "real" isolation or dampening shelves, or $600 each for ASC tubes, (OK, I cannot go out and spend almost $3K on room treatments) but why should I even consider that when I can do all of this for a little less than $100. Does it work as good as $3K worth of treatment? Some yes, mostly no, but my sound is a heck of a lot better than it was before my latest segue into "taming" my room. The middle "bass trap" is shielded with a cotton sheet. I did not want to risk a bio-hazard event with my MAC.   Stu, UT Dallas is here. That is the only one I am aware of. |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1248 Registered: May-06 | P.S. No, Marsh is not wrapped in the pink cotton sheet! |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2640 Registered: May-05 | Mike, I hope you didn't take my comments too seriously. You've got it set up and sounding just about where you want it, and didn't break the bank in the process. There's no shame in that game. I think we're on opposite ends of the spectrum. I've got a little too much OCD.Everything has to line up perfectly. I use the spaces in between the planks of my wooden floors as a guide to square things up. Not just in the attic, but everywhere in the house. I just got an isolation table for my turntable, and spent a good 30 minutes trying to line it up with the edges of my cabinet top. Seriously. I was thinking about building one of the sandbox isolations boxes, but I know it wouldn't come out exactly perfect visually, and would hate staring at the thing. I'll report my opinions on the isolation table I got in the other thread as soon as I get to know it better. |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1908 Registered: Nov-05 | I do understand the need compromise when utilizing a shared space, but to me that means further creativity is required to achieve some of these things. Mike, after 35yrs married (May 5th) I think I have exhausted every last drop of creativity when it comes to influencing my better half. Oh, thank goodness you explained the pink cotton sheet, I was a bit worried there for a while. Stu - looking forward to your t/t isolation results. I don't think I'm finished fooling around in this area yet. |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1249 Registered: May-06 | Stu, I have lesser OCD issues, architectural drawing and using pool tables for income, thus lines are important to me too. I am trying to figure out a way to make the sand traps look like they're floating. Your comments were well received as were all others, no worries. Like M.R., looking forward to knowing more about your isolation results. Reaching over to another thread, I would also love to see some pics of Nymytree's isolotion efforts. M.R. you're killing me. It was my undestanding that her bone density would be to reflective. ......................................................................  |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1909 Registered: Nov-05 | LOL Mike! I'm still waiting for the day when we see a kiddies wading pool in that room and all your stuff floating on little pontoons. Hey, you think I'm kidding? Maybe, but this is an interesting path you guys have set me on. So I understand the fun - and the accomplishment of getting things right - in my case, at least to some degree. |
|
Bronze Member Username: AfjGaboroneBotswana Post Number: 47 Registered: Jan-08 | hi guys since this is a newbies thread thought i would contribute. im not debating here but merely asking. i do understand the importance of the source (if you dont play whats recorded you wont hear whats recorded) and i've heard the difference in various amps and the difference that cables make. my question is that a lot of the more experienced audiophiles in this forum when looking to upgrade mostly look at upgrading the amps and cd players. but i've never seen anyone really looking to upgrade their speakers (or showing the same passion for upgrading the speakers). for eg, i've read a few threads where people have started off with a 1000 dollar set of speakers and an amp in a similar price range and a cd player in about the range of 500 dollars and theres a lot of upgrade in the amps and cd players but no one really looks at upgrading the speakers. dont get me wrong - im not saying that i dont get the point in upgrading the amp. what i dont get is the importance of not upgrading the speakers |
|
Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 640 Registered: Jan-05 | I guess you can't be an audiophile without being bothered to be one. Thats my answer to knowing what you want, you need to put the effort in over time and build up your own knowledge. "I tried to explain the hobby to a few people. Looked at me like I had 10 heads." I liked that Nuck, I've been there before. Amazingly, one of my housemates at university whos now a good friend also appreciates hi fidelity audio. We've had many discussions on his monitors vs my components system! I've only had one amplifier and still have it. Its the speakers I've changed 3 times as I believe this is more important than the source. Why? Because of the synergy they've all had with my amplifier. My first set of speakers were dull. My second were a poor match and had no involvment, although good imaging and my most expensive pair of speakers. My current speakers are almost perfect for my needs. They have speed and detail for the rock and metal which I mostly listen to which the other speakers surely didnt. However 2 main things bother me in audio: -Brightness -Lack of Involvement Theres so much to say about audio, a lot of you have already said some of it, but over the past 4 years from aged 15 I've learnt a hell of a lot about audio. In a week I hope to buy four bass traps for my room to further tune the bass from my subwoofer. Its amazing how we can take our systems for granted too. I've just come back to university after being at home for 3 weeks. I didnt take my system with me as its far too much hassle and I dont have the room. Now moving from some 'labtec' desktop speakers and my dads altec lansing speaker dock to my system astounded me I was actually laughing with how good the music sounded. I think if a system has the ability to do that and sustain involvement and enjoyement then you've cracked it. Now whos got my money for that upgrade? p.s. Jan a girl? Apologies for thinking you was a guy dude! |
|
Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10056 Registered: Dec-04 | Geez, I slept on that pink blanket. JJ, Jan is just Jan. Take your pick, JV watched Bubba sell sitonashingle, so you choose. Get over it. |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6693 Registered: Feb-05 | WTF!!! |
|
Bronze Member Username: AfjGaboroneBotswana Post Number: 50 Registered: Jan-08 | jarvis looked at your profile. exactly what i mean. the speakers you use (ma bronze 2) cant be doing justice to your amp. "Now moving from some 'labtec' desktop speakers and my dads altec lansing speaker dock to my system astounded me I was actually laughing with how good the music sounded" what else did you expect |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2656 Registered: May-05 | Francis, In response to your question of why we've been recommending source upgrades, I can answer why I do in general. A lot of people look into upgrading their speakers and amps, and forget about the source. These people usually have a system that has a good amp and speakers already, yet they have an inferior CD player, DVD player, or even an iPod as the source. No matter how much they improve the amp and speakers, they're not going to get much better sound because the signal going into them from the very begining is compromised. Its similar to if you were trying to increase the performance of a car. A Porsche engine in a VW Bettle makes very little sense. The engine may be far better performing on its own, but without a proper transmission and chassis, the car as a whole won't perform much better if at all. |
|
Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 665 Registered: Jan-05 | Franics. I've just upgraded my amp to a Marantz pm6002. The speakers are fine. I have the Br2 which i believe is the 3rd revision of these speakers. |
|
Bronze Member Username: AfjGaboroneBotswana Post Number: 52 Registered: Jan-08 | stu, my question is that i see a lot of serious audiophiles (correct me if im wrong) upgrade their amp (and cdp etc (spending 3k dollars on an amp and 1 to 2k on a cdp) and staying on with speakers that are 1k dollars. would the next upgrade be moving on to a higher range speakers or status quo? (i use money as an indicator here for lack of a simpler measure) jarvis, if the speakers sound good to you then thats all that matters |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2663 Registered: May-05 | Francis, My personal situation is exactly as you describe. I used to have an NAD 320BEE ($400), NAD 532 CD player ($550), and PSB Image T55 speakers ($1k). I've been upgrading the system. Started with a Rega Apollo ($1K), then got a Bryston B60 (paid $1100 used, new price approx $2500), and still have the PSBs. I'm going to upgrade the PSBs in the near futute with approx $1500 monitors. They are the last to be upgraded for several reasons - a better pair of speakers wouldn't have done much good in my old system. Speakers can/should only reproduce what they're fed. If they're fed garbage, the best speakers in the world will reproduce garbage. If they're given a clean and pure signal, they'll reproduce that as best they can. It also has to do with better speakers sometimes needing stronger/more stable amplification. My 320BEE would not fare very well with some of the speakers I'm looking at. Take the Totem Arros for example - a difficult to drive speaker that requires a lot of clean current. Had I tried to drive them with my 320BEE, it would have clipped easily, increasing the chances of damaging the speakers. Its far easier to ruin a speaker by underpowering it than it is to ruin it by over powering it. In my situation, I also upgraded in order of the weakest link. My CD player was about 10 years old, and was very outdated and old sounding compared to new CD players that cost half its price today. I was planning on buying a complete Rega system when I came across the Bryston B60 integrated amp, which changed everything. I added that to the system, and am now in the (very slow) process of auditioning speakers. Hope that makes some sense to you. I've always advocated upgrading the weakest link in the system to acheive the biggest gains. Every system has a different weakest link, but more often than not, its the source. People get too hung up on power specs of amps and frequency responses of speakers. They tend to ignore the source far too often. Just my opinions. Others may disagree. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 67 Registered: Apr-08 | Francis, don't worry, not everyone is a 'source first' person because reality can and does make sense sometimes. Sources, amps, cables are hundreds, even thousands of times better than the speakers to which they're attached. They're *already* so close to perfection that they can't prevent you from getting really great sound. But the speakers, room acoustics and setup can. And do. By far, the latter three are the most important. I'd rather have $20,000 speakers with a $2000 amp/CD player than $2000 speakers with $2M in gear. I did a demo for a customer who got the "source first" treatment once. He had just bought $5500 speakers. I had $6000 speakers. His dealer wanted him to buy $20K in electronics because he wasn't entirely happy with the midrange. I made him a deal - that I would bring my $6K speakers and attach it to his existing system and compare it to his new speakers on $20K worth of electronics and cabling. His system had, yikes, a Fisher CD player, freebie interconnects that were 10+ years old, actual zip cord, a Carver preamp (far from my favorite). The only decent thing was a 15 or 20 year old entry level Threshold amp. I won. Even with all the handicaps, it wasn't even close, so he bought $25K speakers from me and upgrade his gear just enough to not be embarrassing. He loved it. I try to do this type of demo any chance I can get. Even hooked up an iPod directly to a digital active speaker and blew a lot of people away. |
|
Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1259 Registered: May-06 | francis, Stu's point above is worth noting. He did not take an piece part and improve it to the point of doubling the expense to get the quality he was building to. He is growing his system synergestically in which he will always have a sound he loves and the lowest common denominator will not be far behind his best performing piece in his kit. It is a very logical way to grow your system. FWIW, since you are a self admitted "newbie" you may find value in the previous JA post. If you understand it and find it relevant, then it too has helped you move forward in your pursuit. My experience with the fellow is that he studies spec sheets as if they were biblical. It has nothing to do with what you hear. The emphasis on "what YOU hear". Again, nice post Stu! |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2664 Registered: May-05 | "The only decent thing was a 15 or 20 year old entry level Threshold amp." I'd call anything built by Threshold to be far more than decent. Nelson Pass designed them to be able to swing so much current (or voltage?) that they can be used as a arc-welder. A Threshold amp can drive just about any speaker on the planet with ease. Its really no surprise that a $25k speaker sounded sufficiently driven. With that in mind, very few average amps will drive your typical $25k speaker sufficiently. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 69 Registered: Apr-08 | Michael, I try to study everything about a product - how it is designed, how it works with other products, what its limits are, not just the spec sheets. Stu, Nelson is a genius. The amp, despite its age, certainly didn't hurt. |
|
Bronze Member Username: AfjGaboroneBotswana Post Number: 54 Registered: Jan-08 | when i say im a newbie, i mean that i dont have the experience of listening to a wide range of products when compared to a lot of the members here. though over the past 2 years i have listened to a few various systems, and read a lot more. i do understand the importance of a source and the amplifier. i;ve been through a few and now have a nad dvd player and the c272. it has refined the music coming out of my speakers. more so the highs and the lows. but i have heard the 272 on other speakers in the similar price range as mine (jbl L890s) and there was an audible difference (i preferred the jbls) anyway my question is (and this is just out of wanting to know - im not looking at upgrading anytime now), should anyone be looking to upgrade a system similar to mine and they've got about 2000 dollars to spend, what would give the biggest bang for the buck. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 77 Registered: Apr-08 | Francis, the electronics you have are extremely good. not the best possible, but close enough that you could upgrade your speakers many times before getting to the point where you feel a true need to upgrade (and even then......). The analog section of the T163 isn't quite as good as a dedicated stereo piece, but that could well be offset by the sub crossovers and built in DACs in many cases or certainly if you plan on growing into multi-channel. Speakers, well, the best thing to do is take something home for a week if someone will allow it, play nothing but that speaker, then switch back to your current ones and see if it's stepping up or down. New speakers can be quite a bit better, but there's a certain adjustment period that lasts a few days to a week. One thing I advise is to *not* implicitly trust your ears! Remain skeptical, keep listening, don't let first impressions take over. If you remain skeptical, you'll find that much of the differences you thought you heard disappear because your brain is so capable of playing with the sound. One guy was trying to convince me of some difference one time and when I told him I wasn't quite trusting what I was hearing, so i wanted to listen a bit more, he said 'don't you trust your ears?" And I said "No, and the only peoples' ears are I trust less are yours and everyone else's" A lot of audio is marketed purely on first and/or false impressions created largely in your mind by the sales person or marketing materials guiding your mind into hearing what they want you to. They can create differences where none exist, magnify a difference 10 fold or even turn a distortion into a "benefit" |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12497 Registered: May-04 | . "The analog section of the T163 isn't quite as good as a dedicated stereo piece, but that could well be offset by the sub crossovers and built in DACs in many cases or certainly if you plan on growing into multi-channel." Everyone here who believes you can substitute for quality by adjusting the setting on your subwoofer, please raise your hand. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12498 Registered: May-04 | . "One guy was trying to convince me of some difference one time and when I told him I wasn't quite trusting what I was hearing, so i wanted to listen a bit more, he said 'don't you trust your ears?" And I said "No ... " Everyone here who wants to buy audio components from someone who cannot hear, raise your hand. |
|
Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 868 Registered: Feb-07 | Not sure if you can see this, but I'm not raising my hand. That sorta reminds of a recent visit to my local dealer where I spend most of my money. One of the senior guys there was telling me about a system that he saw at a show (CES maybe?) that was composed of gear that cost as much as downpayment on a house. When he was describing the sound of this system you could see that he got excited and animated just talking about it. That's who I want to buy audio components from - someone who still has passion for music and sound, even after years in the business. |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2673 Registered: May-05 | I understand what you're saying David, but... The Juiceman guy and the Oxyclean guy seem pretty passionate. I down't own either product. And I wouldn't buy a stereo from them either one of them. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 79 Registered: Apr-08 | Of course he got excited, just thinking about how much money he was going to make selling the system. I have a passion for music and actual performance, not under performing marketing based companies. Who here wants to take advice from someone who would instantly fail a DBT because he only thinks he can hear? "Do the same stupid things I do and waste as much money as possible!" One of the biggest, easiest sales techniques in audio is to appeal to one's ego. John Dunlavy used to do a trick where he's play his speakers, then he'd say 'let me put on some better speaker cables' and then he'd get the new reaction. In every case, people would go on about how much better the speakers sounded. He didn't change anything. Same cables. Different reaction. But some people don't tell you that they faked you out and sell you a whole lot of expensive gear. People want to hear differences because other people do, so they make it happen. Few people are confident enough in their self image that they can say 'nope, didn't hear it'. Those people come to us and we give them good gear that works for them, not a reaming. |
|
Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 869 Registered: Feb-07 | I see what you mean Stu, but keep in mind the system he was describing to me they didn't even carry. We were just more or less shooting the shite, ya know? |
|
Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 870 Registered: Feb-07 | And the Oxyclean guy pisses me off to no end. I can't for the life of me figure out why the dude is always yelling. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12501 Registered: May-04 | . "Of course he got excited, just thinking about how much money he was going to make selling the system." I thought you said you had tons of sales training? And that's what you heard them say? It's not thinking about the money you make that gets you to sell what the client wants. It's listening to the client, not ignoring them to push what you can talk about. Have you told your boss you don't sell stuff because you don't want to make too much money? I'm sure he/she would be interested to know you don't realize they make more money too when you sell high end gear. The mark up's the same on mid fi and high end gear so why not make the client happy and sell something that will make your boss some money? I bet they wouldn't complain if you sold something better than NAD. If they stock it, they expect you to sell it, fishy. You never said what store you work in. Give me your boss's name and email address. I'll drop them a line to tell them what a good job you refuse to do because you don't want them to make too much money. . |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 83 Registered: Apr-08 | Hah! I am my boss, which is how i get to sell what *I* like, not pretend to like stuff I have no choice but to sell. But my old boss did get a bit peeved with me way back when. He said i was doing it wrong. First, he said, "you size up the size of their wallet (not kidding). Then you extract as much money as you can. If they don't feel a significant amount of pain paying the bill, you didn't sell them enough stuff". I quit. I do quite well competing against him too because we don't just take people's money. He said he wouldn't let me talk to the big customers because he knew I wouldn't take all the money that they would pay. It was always funny watching people storm out of his office after he tried to scam them though. Here's a real example of what we do. A customer comes in, says he needs a DAC for under $500 because he's unhappy with the sound. Now, a "good" salesman would sell him a $500 DAC. A great salesman would sell him at least a $1000 DAC. First off, after questioning, his CD player doesn't even have digital out. Second of all, he's got a Sony receiver. And Bose 301s. I sell him $500 speakers that sound fantastic, offer to upgrade him to NAD down the road, get a call how happy he is and he comes back to buy over and over again because I didn't just rip him off and sell him what he thought he needed. Who told him he needed a DAC? A salesman from another store who didn't even bother to ask what he had. This kind of thing happens to us about every week. One of the greatest mistakes a customer can make is assuming they know more than a knowledgeable sales guy. The other one is not knowing enough to defend himself from a bad sales guy who just wants his money and doesn't care how he gets it. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12504 Registered: May-04 | . "One of the greatest mistakes a customer can make is assuming they know more than a knowledgeable sales guy." Oh, my, and I assume you think you're a knowledgeable sales guy simply because you asked a question? Tell me the story of this one; "One thing I advise is to *not* implicitly trust your ears! ... One guy was trying to convince me of some difference one time and when I told him I wasn't quite trusting what I was hearing, so i wanted to listen a bit more, he said 'don't you trust your ears?" And I said "No, and the only peoples' ears are I trust less are yours and everyone else's" So, according to that, I'm not supposed to trust your ears, anyone else's ears or my ears! That doesn't leave anyone to listen. Right? Listening is optional with you I assume? You'll just let them in on the secrets like, "Keep in mind that PRaT in a speaker can be easily achieved with some cone resonance in the upper midrange and a mid bass peak. Voila, PRaT. Never mind that it's screwed up in time and phase by hundreds or thousands of degrees and quite a few ms." That "thousands of degrees" still puts me on the floor. The "quite a few ms" is the kicker. Yep, and you'll sell $500 speakers all day long - to go with a Sony receiver! You're a whiz!!! . |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 86 Registered: Apr-08 | you want to trust your ears? Take a DBT with cables or amps or CD players, pass it, then you'll know whether you can trust your ears or not. Or, you can play 'audio stalker'. I didn't know they let John Hinckley this much access to the internet. |
|
Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10093 Registered: Dec-04 | One thing I advise is to *not* implicitly trust your ears! Remain skeptical, keep listening, don't let first impressions take over. If you remain skeptical, you'll find that much of the differences you thought you heard disappear because your brain is so capable of playing with the sound. One guy was trying to convince me of some difference one time and when I told him I wasn't quite trusting what I was hearing, so i wanted to listen a bit more, he said 'don't you trust your ears?" And I said "No, and the only peoples' ears are I trust less are yours and everyone else's" you want to trust your ears? Take a DBT with cables or amps or CD players, pass it, then you'll know whether you can trust your ears or not. I see a bit of a contradiction, again, JA with you. How long should one sit in the dark and listen in a DBT? |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 249 Registered: Jul-07 | The DBT is a smoke screen JA lights up whenever he gets challenged on one of his theories. Apparently nobody other than him can objectively listen to two different components and pick the one they like the most. We are all slaves to sales people apparently and don't have a brain in our heads. He tells us story after story of why he's such a great guy, but challenges every statement or opinion anyone else makes. He even craps on other peoples gear, and assumes it is impossible for them to like it, so they must be brainwashed. JA, I'd like to take you seriously, I really would. However, and you may not realize it, but you are one insulting SOB. There are people here that have spent a lot of time listening to music, and listening to audio systems. Their experiences are their experiences. You can't just flush that down the toilet because you don't agree with them. You remind me of one of those left brained analyst people in a musical world. All analytics and numbers and no ears or passion. You need both....you really do. I don't know how well you can hear, but you certainly don't listen. And, you're crapping on another thread. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 87 Registered: Apr-08 | Nuck, the difference between a music lover and an audiophile is that a music lover will go build a system and will begin to listen to music. An audiophile will go build a system and can't stop listening to his system. Chris, the funny thing is that I've *never* used DBTs as a 'smokescreen' until this week. If there's a group of people that desperately need to take part it one, it's a large chunk of this forum. I've never heard such complete and total BS all gathered in one place before. I feel like I just walked into a church of scientology. People who constantly obsess about the sound of gear are the people that really don't enjoy music yet they know that others do. So, they believe it's because they're more advanced and need a better stereo and spend $thousands upon $thousands building a better and better system desperately hoping that *someday* with enough money, they too will be able to enjoy music. But the sad reality is they just don't and never will, not like normal people. Which, of course, is totally different from people who just like owning good stuff because they have the money for it. Don't see too many of those here though. ' And let's face it, it's Jan doing the crapping here, I'm just giving my opinion and responding to personal attacks. |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 250 Registered: Jul-07 | JA, it's just people talking audio and music. And if you look at most of their systems they are really quite modest. When you have a hobby you like to talk about it with other people. That's not obsessing. And really, you have no idea how much they enjoy their systems or music. That's strictly your perception based on what little you know about them. I guess I just don't understand your angst, but I do know this much. You will find it very difficult to get anyone to listen to your thoughts if you're not listening to them....or worse still, TELLING them what they are thinking. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12508 Registered: May-04 | . Bears repeating since fishy doesn't listen; "I guess I just don't understand your angst, but I do know this much. You will find it very difficult to get anyone to listen to your thoughts if you're not listening to them....or worse still, TELLING them what they are thinking." . |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 92 Registered: Apr-08 | Chris, there's a huge difference in expressing a personal preference for something and saying that something is 'better' just because you like it it more. Because someone else will have exactly the opposite opinion and cancel yours out. If you say that something is truly better, than that should be verifiable in measurements or scientific subjective testing or everyone will simply agree on it. I don't really feel the need to listen to guys like Jan because they certainly don't listen to anyone else, let alone me. But I'm sure there are *some* normal people here. You're probably one of them. Jan clearly isn't. I part of 'discussing' audio is actually recognizing that other people do have different tastes, won't agree with you and if you say that your stuff is 'better' or 'outclasses' their stuff, well, they will be offended by that. It's like me saying that my favorite band is *better* than your favorite band or my wife is *better* than your wife. |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2677 Registered: May-05 | Do you guys have to ruin every thread? |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 251 Registered: Jul-07 | I don't think anyone here has a problem with someone saying they prefer this over that. Happens all the time. There are often two people who will have differing views on something, but its typically a polite "I have a different take on that" type of discussion. It's like the "source first" discussion. Different people have their own opinions. You obviously do as well. That's cool. But it's YOUR opinion, it doesn't invalidate others. Some of your posts simply read like others have it all wrong and they need to come around to your thinking. That's where the problem lies John. Folks here generally welcome a fresh perspective. But they don't want to have someone in their faces saying "prove to me that what you prefer is better". I shouldn't have to justify my preferences to anyone other than to myself. If it sounds better to me, that's all I need to know. I'm not going to prove anything to anyone, nor could I, you, or anyone. If a transistor radio sounds good to me, I shouldn't be chastised for it. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 93 Registered: Apr-08 | Chris, But don't you see the hypocrisy or perhaps just irony of wanting other people to respect your opinions on what you like better at the same time you're implying that your preference means it's fact? And therefore, everyone else's opinions are therefore wrong? After all, we're not talking speakers here, with their massive differences in sound, we're talking very small differences in the scheme of things (at least with good gear). If a transistor radio sounds good to you, you're right, you shouldn't be chastised. If you say that the transistor radio is better than or 'outclasses' a good stereo, well, you might find that you get resistance to that idea. I can say that I can and have proved to many people that the speakers, setup and room are far more important the difference between CD players or cables or amps. And I can do it repeatedly and under 'worse case' scenarios (zip cord, cheapie cables, Fisher CD player, etc). How much more important? That's difficult to define, but a lot more. So, the 'source first' argument can be easily proven false because our sources are now so good and so close to each other in performance. I don't care if you doubt that, but I *can* and *do* demonstrate it with speakers that are as little as $100 or $200 apart in price. That's why 'audio context' is very important. Should you spend $500 more on speakers? Or $5000 more on ancillaries? With rare exception, the $500 on speakers will be a far more dramatic improvement than $5000 spent on ancillaries. It's just how it is, it's measurable, provable, repeatable. But sometimes, we just want better ancillaries because they make us feel good and there's nothing really wrong with that. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12509 Registered: May-04 | . fj - If we can get this thread back on track and even try to return to the main point of the thread, we can begin with your comment, " ... should anyone be looking to upgrade a system similar to mine and they've got about 2000 dollars to spend, what would give the biggest bang for the buck." IMO, the biggest bang for the buck is to spend a chunk of that cash on tickets to live performances. Get to know the sound of live music and understand what you enjoy about music. Listen to the interplay between musicians of some calibre. Experience the rhythms and timing of artists working together to move you physically, emotionally and in some cases, spiritually. Pay attention to what music does to your mind and your body. Most of all get to know the sound of live music and you will not rely on the sound of reproduced music as your guide and reference. In other words, do not listen to live music and judge it against your system. Once you begin to know live music, bring that knowledge to the showroom and ignore the advice of most others. Find your own path. You are contemplating a system, not a single component. At this point you have a system where each component is OK simply because they aren't totally wrong. Now you need to listen to your system and decide what is present there that you enjoyed when listening to a live perfomance and determine what is missing. What are the strengths and weaknesses of what you presently own. What do you enjoy about your system? Why do you think you chose the JBL's over other speakers? What are you hearing? You cannot move forward until you know where you are. If you decide the system needs a total revision in tonality - frequency response - then follow the advice of listening to new speakers. They will provide the largest single difference in tonal balance. Before spending on speakers, however, you might want to make certain your present speakers are performing as best they can. You can even do this now, if you try a real speaker set up plan. Place "loudspeaker set up" in a search engine and get some ideas how to get the most out of your system. My favorite for first time set ups is the "W.A.S.P." program. It's simple, works well in real rooms and sounds good. If you cannot do a proper speaker set up, stop where you are and spend your money on a vaction. If you cannot get the most from your system through good set up, spending more money to not get the best results is absurd. If you find tonality is not your weakest issue with your present system after you've done a proper set up, you should be looking at the front of the system. The tonality change of a CD player, pre amp or amplifier is not as dramatic as speakers. Many people simply can't hear what a better component brings to the system and they tend to dismiss the importance of electronics to concentrate on the obvious change a speaker will bring. You change the front end components simply because you want higher quality. You change speakers because you want a different sound. Speakers cannot reproduce what is not fed into them and they will show the problems of a weak front end once they become too revealing for your system. When someone comes back to this forum to tell you all speakers are inferior to the electronics - ignore them. They don't know what they are talking about. If you have trained your ears to hear what occurs in live music, you will know why they are wrong. They have no clue what the word "system" means. You buy front end components because you want better sound. "Better sound" will bring qualities such as timing, ambience, timbre, dynamics, soundstaging etc. They are the qualities of live music. If those are the things you hear from live music that are most often missing from recorded sound, then you need to improve the front end first. If all you hear is bass, mids and highs when you listen to live music, then you have no need for better front end components than you have right now, in all probability. You need to learn more about how music is made and how it sounds before you change anything. When you get ready to upgrade, your job is to find a dealer who will work with you, not insist you follow their preferred path regardless of your needs. Find a dealer who will let you listen to a series of products from different manufacturers. This is best done on a quiet weekday afternoon when you can spend some time listening without distractions. If a dealer begins to push an ideology, ignore them. Listen for yourself. The dunmbest comment so far is to not trust your own ears. They are all you have. Your preception is tantamount as long as you've trained your ears to hear live music. Ignore anyone wanting to prove their product is superior by way of paper specs. Ignore the mumbo jumbo of sales. Listen. If you have trained your ears to know music, you only need the dealer for an audition and some information. But first you must train your ears. you wouldn't give someone $20 for a $1 item unless you had learned what to expect in return. The same holds true for a system. You shouldn't give someone any money unless you know what you are getting in return. The dealer is there for guidance when you have questions about system matching. You'll want to know what is a good match with your present system electronically and as a step in the path for future upgrades. Any dealer should provide that amount of assistance. Once again if they espouse an unbending philosophy - buy this now, not what you want - they are very likely not doing you a favor. The best advice so far has been to listen for a while before you buy. If the dealer will allow an audition or a proper return policy, take advantage of the opportunity. But always trust your well trained ears and not something anyone else tells you. They can't hear what you hear and they cannot know how you hear what you hear. If you hear pacing, rhythm and timing in music - which you should - do not allow anyone to tell you it doesn't exist. If you are after the timbre of a real instrument, make sure you are satisified the product you purchase can provide that sound. Know your priorities and follow your common sense. Make music your goal and not a collection of boxes someone else likes to sell. . |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12510 Registered: May-04 | . "That's why 'audio context' is very important. Should you spend $500 more on speakers? Or $5000 more on ancillaries? With rare exception, the $500 on speakers will be a far more dramatic improvement than $5000 spent on ancillaries. It's just how it is, it's measurable, provable, repeatable." That's simply wrong and dumb. Laughably so. . |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 95 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, wanna bet significant sums of money on a DBT? If it's simply wrong and dumb, take my money. Or take the $1M cable challenge as a warm up, see if you can beat that, then you can conquer my test with all your new betting money. |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 96 Registered: Apr-08 | BTW, is it 'Jan', as in Janet, or 'yawn', as in you're boring the crap out of me.  |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 97 Registered: Apr-08 | Francis, one of the more humorous, though frustrating things we hear from customers is when they describe the sound of their speakers, but think it's a problem with their amp or cables or something. Here's an example. A guy wanted to know if we sold 500W amps because his amp wasn't able to drive his speakers in his new room. I said, "no, it's not really necessary and besides, your speakers are 90dB efficiency and you have a 250W Krell, so it can *easily* drive your speakers." Well, he kept insisting, but the more I asked him, the more I found out. Seems he moved into a new house, read something on the internet about live end/dead end and damped the living hell out of his room. So, I gave him two choices - undampen the room or get new speakers with a brighter sound and/or more dispersion. He insisted it had to be his amp. And i told him that if he'd sign a paper, i'd go up and blow every driver in his speakers with his amp to prove it's not the problem. I'm sure he bought a 500W amp somewhere, but it sure wasn't going to be from me. I'm not going to compromise my ethics to make a quick sale. One of his friends said he'd try to talk some sense into him though. Another time, a guy said he needed a new amp when his was quite good, because his 'treble was a bit bright and disconnected, the midrange was harsh and unrefined and his bass was peaky and not very deep'. I said "ummmm, you just exactly described the sound of your speakers!" "No, I'm sure it's just the CD player or amp or something, I LOVE my speakers". "And yet, you don't seem to love the sound of them". See, a lot of my competitors' customers come to me to complain about their sound and want me to fix it, they just don't like the sound of the fix. It's not what they *want* to hear. They want me to sell them an easy fix when the problem is room acoustics or speakers or their setup. They don't want to admit that the speakers they 'love' so much are flawed. And, of course, we didn't sell the amps or CD players anyway, so that wasn't our fault regardless. Now, there are time when someone complains about the sound and *doesn't* describe their speakers. Then I go out and find out that it was a coffee table or speakers too close to a wall or too far apart or in corners or asymmetrical placement or a big piece of glass on the wall. But it's never been the CD player or amp or preamp or cables truly causing the problem, unless they were broken or the AV receiver/preamp wasn't set properly. Funny thing is, one of my competitors is a 'front end first' guy and we take sales from him all the time because people walk in and say 'that just doesn't sound right to me'. And that's because it isn't. Speakers are 100s of times more distorted and inaccurate than any source. If you're looking through 10 pains of glass and one of them is filthy, replacing the clean ones with other clean ones won't really improve the view much. You have to replace the worst part of the system and that is and always will be the speakers. or the room. All i know is that my customers don't complain about their sound and that's what makes me a happy guy. |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 252 Registered: Jul-07 | "You have to replace the worst part of the system and that is and always will be the speakers. or the room." I guess that just wasn't my experience. I started (based on advice here) on room setup. Luckily my room wasn't that bad, but unluckily messing with speaker placement and acoustics didn't help much. The problem (largely a very unrelaxed nature to the music....edgy, stressful) was still very much apparent. I tried cable changes which changed things a little, but not really an improvement. I replaced my source and boom, music. Subsequently I changed my amp and speakers which both resulted in improvements, but more refinements than drastic changes. More suble things. In my case I think changing speakers first would have made the problem worse, but I have yet to wire my new speakers up to my old components. Easy enough to do though. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12513 Registered: May-04 | . "Speakers are 100s of times more distorted and inaccurate than any source." Is that because of the hundreds of phase shift? Fishy, that's just not true. You make this crap up use numbers and words that don't mean anything and expect people to believe it. If your clientelle is that dumb to buy that BS, then they deserve what they get. Show me one speaker with TIM distortion, slewing limitations or just simply high order harmonic disortion. . |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 98 Registered: Apr-08 | Partially phase, not that we can hear much of that. Name me an amp that has 25-50% distortion through much of its range at 95dB. Name me an amp that is down 20dB at 20Hz or can't fit within a +/- 3dB curve, even over only 5 or 6 octaves. Name an amp that rings for for several ms after a test tone. An Ascend Sierra, for instance, puts out 10% distortion at 70Hz with only 2-3 of watts put into it (and it gets much worse below 70Hz). What does an amp put out? About .01% maybe. What's that difference? 1000 times. It can fit within a 5dB window over 100Hz *if* you smooth the graph, but the M3 fits handily within a .05dB window. That's 100 times not including its bass drop off. And speakers actually have massive transient distortion, but no one seems to measure it because it would make them look like hell. Speakers have *much* more limited "slew rate" which is why they don't have nearly the ultra sonic capability. And harmonic distortion? Gimme a break, that's dramatically worse on a speaker. If you don't think speakers are hundreds of times more distorted than a CD or amp, you certainly shouldn't be dispensing advice to *anyone* about *anything*. Do you know *anything* about speakers? At all? What is the phase shift on a 4th order crossover? |
|
Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 99 Registered: Apr-08 | Chris, what did your old system consist of? |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12520 Registered: May-04 | . Here was my question, "Show me one speaker with TIM distortion, slewing limitations or just simply high order harmonic disortion." You tend not to answer questions that don't fit you agenda, eh, fishy. "Partially phase, not that we can hear much of that. I don't think you have a good grasp on "phase", fishy. "Name me an amp that has 25-50% distortion through much of its range at 95dB." What do you mean an amp at 95dB? Do you mean an amplifier with 95dB gain? There is no such thing. "95dB" would depend on the speaker it was driving. If this is your logic, you suck. If you're selling speakers with 50% "distortion", you need better lines. That's new KHL territory. "Name me an amp that is down 20dB at 20Hz or can't fit within a +/- 3dB curve, even over only 5 or 6 octaves." Frequency response is not "distortion" and if your speakers can't do better than a 6dB trough in a measured and adjusted on axis frequency response, you need to find better speakers. If you think frequency response alone equals "accurate", you need to rethink this whole thing and learn to listen. "Name an amp that rings for for several ms after a test tone." Most any HT receiver. Actually quite a few amps will because of their lousy power supplies, maybe not at 1kHz but they will at 20Hz and 20kHz. Once again, if you think these are "problems" that are greater than most amplifier's problems, you need to rethink what you're selling. I'm not arguing a low frequency driver has higher distortion figures than any amplifier. What you are ignoring is the type of distortion a speaker produces vs. the type of distortion an amplifier produces. Looking at the T.H.D. spec is worthless in an amplifier or a speaker. It is more important to know what the structure of the distortion is. Like a tube amp, a speaker almost always produces a simple second harmonic distortion and virtually nothing at higher harmonics which makes a very benign distortion product in a speaker. IM distortion is moderate in any speaker and always more grating in an amplifier, even in small amounts. No speaker exhibits TIM. It doesn't matter what the "total" disortion product is. It matters how that total number is derived. Speakers are far from perfect but "distortion" is hardly their major failing. "Speakers have *much* more limited "slew rate" which is why they don't have nearly the ultra sonic capability." Bullsh*t! Just plain BS and you know it. This is the "advice" you give out for free I assume. If you charge for this, you need to send refund checks. Name an amplifier that has a 45° negative electrical phase angle. Name a speaker with 40dB of NFB. Name a speaker that is "unstable". We can go on like this until you realize you're not making sense. . |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12521 Registered: May-04 | . Tell me, fishy, what do you think the "phase shift" is in a fourth order crossover. And why the h*ll it matters. |
|
Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 105 Registered: Apr-08 | Answer my questions first and then I'll answer yours. When I say 95dB on an amp, I'm saying with the speakers playing that loud. IOW, about 5-10W. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12523 Registered: May-04 | . Like I said earlier, fishy, Old Dog doesn't have to play with little fishes. But here goes ... Didn't you pay any attention to what I just said about the nature of the distortion component? Predominantly second order distortion is relatively benign. 10% predominantly second order harmonic distortion, while we would wish for lower, is less bothersome than 0.1% with high order components and TIM/IM distortion combined that can be found in many amplifiers with bipolar outputs and a crappy power supply. Harmonic distortion is hardly the problem you wish to make it when discussing speakers, fishy. Scratch that bit of BS off your list of crap to feed to customers. Put that 95dB SPL into a horn loaded system and the T.H.D. is reduced to minimal amounts, probably less than 1% and still second order. A QWTL has slightly higher but not much and an infinite baffle has only a bit more. Its only when you deal with bass reflex enclosures that "distortion" becomes a reasonably "worthwhile" discussion and most of that is group delay and out of bandwidth crud. |
|
Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 106 Registered: Apr-08 | Horn loaded speakers have too much acoustic distortion from the wave guides. And you still are numerically way off even as you try to dismiss speaker distortion. Old Dog *can't* play with little fishes because Old Dog can't get out of the 70s. Or is that the 60s? 50s?!? |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12524 Registered: May-04 | . You need to read and look around. When you only sell one brand of speakers, you don't know much about the rest of the world. Horns are back! Now don't tell me you didn't know that! |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1426 Registered: Jun-07 | Who's calling who old here John... Since we all love Measurements so much, I was just reading tonight a new review on the latest Klipch Reference line. They got rave reviews, and decent measurements, and their a horn loaded speaker. hmmm. |
|
Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 253 Registered: Jul-07 | "Chris, what did your old system consist of?" Pretty much a NAD 541i cdp, NAD T742 receiver, and a pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170's. |
|
Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10100 Registered: Dec-04 | JA, my educated guess is 60's, 70's and 80's. JV has experience from the 50's as well. Probably a bit of the 90's. Experience pays off, man. Read and learn. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12525 Registered: May-04 | . Actually, I've done my research back into the early 1900's. Years ago I found out how much of what fishy wants to feed his customers is wrong. Most of what he pushes had been disproven by the 1940's. fishy only grabs headlines and throws them at you - all words, no context. This is like watching a pickpocket distract you while reaching in for your wallet. And he says he has ethics! Bullsh*t! fishy, you have a lot to learn and only a fool doesn't learn as much as they can about what came about before they showed up. So what's your answer on that fourth order? . |
|
Bronze Member Username: AfjGaboroneBotswana Post Number: 59 Registered: Jan-08 | "If you decide the system needs a total revision in tonality - frequency response - then follow the advice of listening to new speakers You change the front end components simply because you want higher quality. You change speakers because you want a different sound. " now i get it. that made a lot of sense jan. taking my system as an example, i love the tone of the speakers they're very neutral and clean, except for the highs which are a bit ott sometimes to my ears. i guess its the front end that could do with an upgrade in getting the music to sound more 'live' from a better quality sound. |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics