|
New member Username: HolgerPost Number: 1 Registered: Apr-08 | Hi, I'm new here so forgive me please if I make mistakes. I'm not an audiophile and really don't understand the technology or "technospeak" but need help with a problem. I have a pair of 20 year old Magnepan SMGa's (Little Maggies) that I need to power. The only other component in my outfit is an even older Sony turntable. I've contacted Magnepan and they tell me that what I really need to adequately power my speakers is an amp that is rated at 4 ohms continuous and is "High Current". They also recommend using an amp that is rated at at least 100 watts per channel. I have an opportunity to purchase a Hafler DH500 for what I believe to be a fair price ($400.00) but am concerned that this amp will not meet what Magnepan describes as the minimum requirements. I understand that it exceeds 100 watts per channel and, unless I'm mistaken, PLEASE tell me if I am, it meets the 4 ohm requirement but what about the High Current requirement? Again, unless I'm mistaken, this power amp is also about 20 years old. Did Hafler make High Current amps 20 years ago? Any help with my problem will be greatly appreciated. Also, if there are other considerations that I should be aware of, please let me know. I've had these speakers for years (I bought them new) and have never been able to power them with a device capable of doing them justice. Thank you all very much for your help. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12558 Registered: May-04 | . "High current " is a marketing term. And, yes, manufacturers, specifically Harman Kardon, were building high current capacity amplifiers back in the 1970's. Over the last three decades speakers have all too often become more difficiult to drive and more manufacturers have climbed on the high current bandwagon. Of course, this means high current had to continually get higher to beat last year's model - on paper at least. What happens on paper is not all that relevant to what happens in the real world when you connect and amplifier to a speaker. What you should know is the Hafler is now twenty years old and some parts are scarce. Generic parts such as capacitors and resistors are available and they may need replacing in a twenty year old amplifier. Caps have a typical life span of about 20-25 years before they should be replaced. The Hafler will drive your speakers with a fair degree of ability. If your volume requirements are not high, then it should do OK. Make certain you know how the Hafler sounds. My recollection is the 500 is a MOSFET amplfiier. MOSFET's from that time have a recognizable "sound". The 500 is also only a power amplifier. What will you use as a pre amp? Synergy between components is the key to a successful system. If you decide you would rather have a component with a warranty, the current line of HK stereo receivers has had good luck driving the Magnepans. . |
|
New member Username: HolgerPost Number: 2 Registered: Apr-08 | Hi Mr. Vigne, Thanks very much for the info. I have no idea what kind of use this amp has been subjected to so one of my concerns is with its age and how long I'd be able to use it until some kind of repair were required. Now that you've pointed out that parts would be difficult to come by those concerns are multiplied. Would your recommendation be that I not pursue buying an amp this old? To answer your question I'd be using an NAD model 1130 pre-amp. Assuming I did get the Hafler DH500 would you say the NAD 1130 would be a good mate for it? If buying the Hafler is a bad idea, what would your recommendation be? If I do pursue finding a used component is there some kind of test I can perform or something I can listen for that might help determine how much life is left in it? I contacted NAD in Canada and spoke with one of their Engineers. He was very helpful and after discussing my "problem" with me recommended an NAD model C372 integrated amp. Unfortunately they're $1000.00 new or $700.00 refurbished. Spending that much money on a luxury item would have a very negative impact on my matrimonial situation; my wife would kill me. Also, I already have the NAD pre-amp and would like to use it if possible. If you or anyone else reading this would like to offer any suggestions I'd dearly love to hear them. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12560 Registered: May-04 | . "Would your recommendation be that I not pursue buying an amp this old?" Why are you wanting to buy this amplifier? If it's a case of enough watts, then there are other suitable amplifiers I'm sure. What makes you want this amplifier? You can look at the circuit boards for signs of frequent repair and you can chaeck for any indication a cap might be leaking, which would be a brownish substance around the cap. Most modern caps don't leak, they just fail. Like a light bulb they have a finite life and they will go out one day when you hit them wih 120 Volts AC. I don't know what you would like only what I can tell you about the basic nature of the Hafler. Check out the HK stereo receievr. It might suit your needs for less money. . |
|
New member Username: HolgerPost Number: 3 Registered: Apr-08 | Hello again Mr. Vigne, Thanks very much for continuing to pursue my questions. I really appreciate it. My fixation on this amplifier is due to its having been very highly reviewed on several other sites. A lot of places I have looked (on-line) have had literally nothing but glowing reviews about this amp. From what I can tell every single person who's offered a review of this amp says that it's nothing short of remarkable. Have a look here: http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/amplifiers/hafler/PRD_115810_1583cr x.aspx Also, this amp is available to me right now. I've spent months searching for a used quality amp to come along that I can afford. This is the first and only one I've found. My concern is that if I don't snap this one up another won't become available for I don't know how long. I can't afford to purchase a new power amp that meets the specs that experts tell me I need so, unless I'm wrong, I have to buy used. My experience has been that quality used components just don't appear every day. Can you offer an opinion as to the pre-amp I'll be using (NAD 1130)? Also, any additional suggestions or insights are always appreciated. By the way, per your suggestion, I will take a look at what HK has to offer. |
|
New member Username: HolgerPost Number: 4 Registered: Apr-08 | It's me again. I took a good look at what HK has to offer and, from what I can tell with my limited understanding; the HK3485 will meet my needs provided it's a "High Current" component. I'm assuming Mr. Vigne wouldn't have suggested them if they weren't High Current but it sure would be nice if it actually said that somewhere in the specs (am I being naive?). My problem with an HK solution is that the HK component is a receiver. I already have what I think is a perfectly good pre-amp (someone tell me if they think I'm wrong about that or if they think the NAD and Hafler are an incompatible pair) and have no need or desire for a tuner so why purchase a receiver? Sorry to belabor this issue but I'm still looking for some clear cut advice regarding this used Hafler or, if the expert consensus is that the Hafler is a bad idea because of its age or other reasons, what else I should be looking at and where I should be looking. As always, any advice, suggestions and/or comments are very much appreciated. |
|
Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10109 Registered: Dec-04 | Eric, you could look for a NAD 272 power amplifier on the used market.They are plentiful and cheap. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12564 Registered: May-04 | . EJ - If I were you I would explore two options before I decided a two decade old amplifier was my best hope. The first is the HK receiver. It's a good product with a good price. No hassles with availability and service and you'll have a warranty. Any place that sells the HK will do so with a return policy. Try it for two weeks. The other option would be to stretch the budget a bit to an Outlaw stereo receiver; http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html Excellent reviews, superior service, a warranty and a return policy. I would be very surprised if one of those two products did not serve your needs. As to the Hafler, that must be your choice. Good reviews on any product - new or used - do not indicate you will be personally pleased with how that component mates with your present system. If you really believe the 500 is the best amplifier for your needs, then buy it. Otherwise, from what I'm hearing from you and the bit I remember of the Hafler and the reasonably substantial amount I know about vintage components I would at least hold off on this amplifier. Hafler's aren't that difficult to come by and you need to explore before you just jump into a purchase that has no backing out point. You'll have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each product and come to your own conclusions. If you buy a stereo receiver, just think of the tuner as a freebie. . |
|
New member Username: HolgerPost Number: 5 Registered: Apr-08 | Hi everyone, sorry I was out of touch yesterday. I took the day off from work and did other things. So I bought the Hafler. I went and took a look at it, listened to it (sounded great) and even took the cover off and looked inside. The amp looks perfect inside and out (dusty inside but otherwise excellent). What really sold me was the story the guy told me about it (who knows if any of it was true) and the fact that I was able to haggle him down to $280.00. I should also mention that before going over to audition it I called Musical Concepts in MO and spoke with a very nice guy named John who discussed with me in detail the pros and cons of this amp. I'm very pleased with my purchase (so far) and am now researching where in my area I can go to get the caps replaced. I'd like to offer my heart felt thanks to both Jan Vigne and Nuck for their kind assistance. But wait, there's more! I now have a new problem. While hooking my NAD 1130 pre-amp to my newly acquired Hafler DH500 power amp I discovered that both the RCA outputs on the back of the pre-amp are loose. So, when I attached the RCA cables to the back of the pre-amp neither channel worked. I happened to touch one of them and suddenly that channel cut in and back out again. After a few minutes of twisting and giggling the cables I got both channels to work without either cutting in or out. I was able to listen to it for an hour or so before going to bed last night without any problems. What I'd like to know is, despite everything sounding great and apparently working fine as a result of my twist and giggle stop gap solution am I none the less doing damage to any of my components by running the pre-amp with loose RCA connections? I will of course get this repaired but can I listen to my outfit until I do? I have one more question and then I'll shut up. The back of my pre-amp has two sets of outputs. These are described as PREAMP OUTPUT (NORMAL) & PREAMP OUTPUT (HIGH LEVEL). Which one should I be using for the Hafler? Here is the description / definition of the PREAMP OUTPUT (HIGH LEVEL) verbatim from the NAD installation and operation instructions: PREAMP OUTPUT (HIGH LEVEL) At this special preamp output the signal level is approximately 13 db higher than at the normal output, and the output impedance is lower (220 ohms). You may use these jacks if your power amplifier requires an input level of more than 2 volts to drive it to full output. The high level output jacks also may be used to drive professional studio equipment; from these jacks the preamp can drive load impedances as low as 600 ohms and can deliver undistorted signals up to 15 volts (+ 26 dbm) to a high-impedance (bridging) load. Right now I'm using the PREAMP OUTPUT (NORMAL) connections. As always, many thanks to anyone willing to help. Eric |
|
Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10142 Registered: Dec-04 | Hey Eric. The input sensitivity on that amp is 2.35 volts for full rated output into 8 ohm loads @225w. Use both outputs and see what happens. The rca/pro is a pseudo balanced connection, maybe? http://www.hafler.com/techsupport/pdf/DH-500_amp_man.pdf |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12584 Registered: May-04 | . You are unlikely to do damage to your system with the jacks as is. They are to my recollection mounted on a "board" of sorts and should offer no opportunity for short circuits. Wht is more likely is they will continue to cut in and out and they will come back from a dead spot with a vengence that will be loud enough to take out your amplifier or speakers. Get this fixed and play at low levels until that time. Use the "Normal" outputs unless you find you have to raise the volume control above 1 O'Clock for a comfortable listening level. If your amp sits more than 12' from your pre amp, the lower output impedance of the 220 Ohms would be beneficial but you should still weigh that advantage against a comfortable listening level and where the vc sits. . |
|
New member Username: HolgerPost Number: 6 Registered: Apr-08 | Hello Gentlemen, thank you both for your input re: the pre-amp / amp connections and suggestions re: my loose RCA connections. The amp sits on a table right next to my turntable and the pre-amp is sitting right on top of the amp. Since air to cool is pulled in from the sides and ejected at the rear I didn't see any problem with sitting the NAD on top of the Hafler (please let me know if this is a mistake). Since setting it up last night the max. I've had the volume knob at is around 9 o'clock and that was PLENTY loud. I've been listening for sustained periods of time (no more than 1 hour) with the volume knob between 7 and 8 o'clock (definitely closer to 7). If all that sounds ok then I should be good until I can get the pre-amp repaired. If something I've described here sounds "off" please let me know and I'll make whatever adjustments are suggested. Thanks again for all the help and for continuing to be helpful even though I didn't take all the advice exactly as it was offered. If either of you are ever in D.C. I owe you a beer. |
|
Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10151 Registered: Dec-04 | And beer is the going rate, Eric. If the Hafler is the usual style, it can be mounted in any direction, and the case is tapped for any mount to attach the feet to. Again, to repeat JV, do not! run it very loud in fear of sudden interuption of the signal to the amp. Very very bad. Fix soon. Cross reference to better connections as well, I don't know if this amp can be balnced more betterly(new word) or not, but maybe. |
|
Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 199 Registered: Oct-07 | Another vintage, but younger than the Hafler amp that will give good Magnepan service is the Adcom GFA 555 (mk2. A reasonably well regarded Nelson Pass design, it is a good match for the Maggies. I'd be Really Leary of any marginal connection. You may want to try the high level outputs. My old NAD1700 tuner/pre had the same thing and it came in handy once or twice..... |
|
New member Username: HolgerPost Number: 9 Registered: Apr-08 | I just wanted to thank everyone once again for their kind assistance with my power amp questions. I located a very reputable repair facility in my area, Music Technology in Springfield, VA. I brought my pre-amp in on Friday to get it serviced so soon (5 weeks) I'll have all my components back in tip top condition. |