Floorstanders For Naim 102/180 - Suggestions??
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New member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 1 Registered: Apr-08 | Firstly, I am new to the wonderful world of Naim. So please bear with my "green" nature. I am learning. I heard the Supernait, was blown away, and decided to give Naim a shot. Please help me narrow the choices of what I should demo for speakers. I know only I can be the judge, but it is impossible for me to demo everything. I will give you as much information as possible regarding my preferences, and options. Hopefully I can get suggestions based on what I can demo, and what would be similar. Especially when buying second-hand, it is almost impossible to demo everything. And some will be impossible to demo and I will have to rely on suggestions and comparisons to what I can demo. MY BUDGET $1500 USD (absolute max.) EXISTING GEAR I have a 102/180 set-up without any power supplies, as of yet. Using a wiremold strip as well as the "new" upgraded mains cable. PC FLAC audio > Beresford DAC as a source > Chord Crimson RCA-to-DIN. Tera Labs -- Prime Bi-wire Speaker Cable (will go to NACA-5 soon) Energy Pro Series 4.5 speakers. Canadian made, 2-way floorstander, with 2 x 5½" woofers and 1" Multi-Laminate Dome Tweeter. Front ported, 8 ohm, 92db efficiency, with 39Hz-20kHz range. THE ROOM 5 meters x 20 meters x 3.5 meters tall I don't want anything that is completely room dependant. Something that works well a little closer to the back wall could be good. MY MUSICAL "PRESENTATION" and GENRE PREFERENCES I like my music to be "tight", rhythmically speaking, with full, taut bass. Most of my material has a highly complex rhythmic and percussives aspects to it.... Think Frank Zappa, Varese, John Zorn, Miles Davis etc... Save String Quartets, I prefer BIG orchestral works, from all periods for "serious" music. John Zorn is my musical GOD. Every genre represented, quick tempo changes, thick textures, interesting instrumentation... Almost half of my listening is comprised of great combo jazz of the likes of Miles Davis' 1960's quintet with Carter, Williams, Hancock, Shorter..., Eric Dolphy, Coltrane's Impulse years.... etc. Also, I will do some Klaus Schulze or Eno when the desire strikes, and some Buckethead or other tough rock to wake back up. Additionally I am a big fan of Steve Hoffman, and Diament, "flat response with lots of headroom" mastering styles. I do not listen to much vocal music, nor "electronic"/dance music. Rarely pop music or hip-hop. WHAT HAVE I HEARD AND WHAT CAN I DEMO AT LOCAL DEALERS? I have obviously heard Energy. And I have also heard Totem Rainmakers/Arros, and a variety of Mirage. But not with my Naim gear. I can demo, but not necessarily the model I can afford, Proac, Spendor, Totem, (but not the Arivas I would like to hear). Lastly, I realize no speaker can do EVERYTHING well, and play all genres sufficiently. My stated preferences are, as said above, "tight", rhythmically speaking, with full, taut bass. I know I will sacrifice in other areas such as imaging, soundstage, etc... Thanks in advance for the help everyone. I have been told by many that I need to be careful with speaker selection, and that a "fast" speaker is recommended with my 102/180. Some have even said it will flat-out not sound good if not paired with the right speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6718 Registered: Feb-05 | I would look at the used market on Audiogon...see what's available and go from there. I rarely recommend my speakers but yours seems the unusual situation where they might work. If you are set on buying new you might want to give the Rega R5's a listen...they go well with Naim and your stated musical tastes..which is very cool BTW. |
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New member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 2 Registered: Apr-08 | Art, Thanks! Albany huh????? Not far away. I am definitely not buying new.... And I am all over Audiogon. I have been considering the following shortlist. Naim Ariva Totem Hawk Totem Forest Proac Studio 130 (if i could find them) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6719 Registered: Feb-05 | I love the Naim Ariva...my kind of speaker. If I had my I'd have all Naim electronics and the Ariva's...oh yeah! Where ya at Patrick? |
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New member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 3 Registered: Apr-08 | Art, I am in Bend, OR. Why are the Arivas your kind of speaker. I want to know mroe about what they do well? What about, what they dont do well? Why do people seem to hate on Naim speakers? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6720 Registered: Feb-05 | They have great bass...if placed properly it's very tight and controlled. Much more bass than I'm used to from a speaker with such a small profile. BTW I listen primarily to jazz and classical with some of every other kind of music mixed in. The mids and highs are very organic...not refined in a sense that sounds too slick or perfect. You feel you are getting what's on the record, unvarnished and real. Pretty much the opposite of how I feel about speakers like Focal...too refined and to my ears too perfect...not natural. Alot of folks I know who don't like Naim speakers love the Ariva (and the N-Sats for that matter). I've heard the Ariva driven by Naim gear as well as tubes and they excelled under both conditions. |
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New member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 4 Registered: Apr-08 | Art, Thanks for spending time on this. I really appreciate your thoughts. What would you pay for a nice used "demo" pair from a dealer? I believe they are from 2002, and they state that they have never left the shop. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6722 Registered: Feb-05 | 2002 Hmmm....I didn't know they were that old. They have been discontinued due to problems getting them manufactured I believe and have quite a following so I really can't say Patrick. I'd offer half retail if they are flawless and see what happens (keep in mind that I'm just guessing using my own lust for that speaker). |
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New member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 5 Registered: Apr-08 | Art, Actually, they are from 2004 (given the serial #), although the Naim website does not show a date range for this model. And I read that they discontinued the Ariva because the company that built the cabinets stopped producing them. My source of the above described pair will part with them for about $1300. Sound fair? Im not sure what the original retail was? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10080 Registered: Dec-04 | Pat, can you get them home for a trial? |
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New member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 6 Registered: Apr-08 | Nuck, Unfortunately no. I cannot find a local source with a pair. The ones i am considering are decidedly not local. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6724 Registered: Feb-05 | Very Fair Patrick... Original Retail was about $2800 |
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New member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 7 Registered: Apr-08 | Art, Great... And you dont see the 4ohm spec presenting problems for my 180? My 180 will drive them well? thanks again for all of the help. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6725 Registered: Feb-05 | Should be no problem... |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2660 Registered: May-05 | From what I understand of the Ariva (and just about all other Naim speakers), they are a very safe speaker. They may be 4 ohm rated, but its a very benign 4 ohms. The Ariva and N-Sat were designed to be used with the Nait 5i and the N-Vi. The only quality $1500 floor stander that I think is on par with your gear is the Totem Arro. Are you open to monitors now and possibly a sub down the road? In addition to what's been mentioned, you may want to look into PMC DB1+ (not DB1i - over budget) ATC SCM7 (not sure if you've got enough raw power for them) Linn Katan Focal 700 series Dynaudio Audience 52, 52SE, or Focus 110 Audio Physic Yara II Compact I think they'll all fit in your budget and should be sufficiently driven. Not sure about the ATC SCM7 though. The Naim Ariva would probably be the best bet if you can get a pair. |
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New member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 8 Registered: Apr-08 | Stu, Art, Nuck, everyone!!! I am going to pull the trigger on the Arivas. Thanks for the help. And mostly, thanks for making me "feel good" about getting them. I was getting serious pressure to try SBLs from the Naim forum. But I dont want a speaker that old, nor something I need to assemble. The arivas are $1300 but including shipping and 12' x 2 NACA-5 with Naim connectors on both sides, it totals $1500. Exactly my max budget. Funny how easy it is to spend every penny of a proposed budget. All told though, my excursion into Naim will only run me $3500. Including all shipping, all cables, and a new Beresford DAC. Not bad i don't think. It should be worlds better than my last set-up which comprised of: Yamaha HTR Receiver to Pre-Amp-Out to Adcom GFA-5300 to Energy Pro 4.5's I cant wait to hear the Arivas..... Review upcoming. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2662 Registered: May-05 | I'll be looking forward to that, Patrick. The Arivas are a fantastic speaker, should combine very well with your gear. The SBLs are a very good speaker as well. While they're probably better overall, they're a little more polarizing than the Ariva. They also have their cons as you've pointed out. Furthermore, I don't think they're as easy to place as the Arivas. I think they need a lot more space to breathe than the Arivas do. Maybe I'm wrong though. You really can't go wrong with your set up. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1404 Registered: Jun-07 | Very nice set up Patrick. Enjoy the music man. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1258 Registered: May-06 | It should be worlds better than my last set-up which comprised of: Yamaha HTR Receiver to Pre-Amp-Out to Adcom GFA-5300 to Energy Pro 4.5's Probably the most accurate thing I heard all day. Congrats Patick, you hooked in a couple of folks who gave you really good input. Enjoy. Looking forward to you posting your impressions. |
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New member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 9 Registered: Apr-08 | Michael, Nick, Stu, all of you, Thanks for the props. Music is the most important non-living aspect of my entire world. Ive been wanting a true audiophile system for my entire life. The Adcom seperates I started with (along with a Pioneer 6 changer) 12 years ago, was nice. But it is a long way from where I wanted to go. I am on the right path now, I think a 102/180/Ariva system will be just that. Praise the nut-job in NYC that insisted that my friend by Naim only. He even told him to use him as a "hotline" in case "he EVER considered buying anything else. By the way, he ended up with a Cayin integrated Tube amp, and a pair of Totem Rainmakers, and a Pro-ject spinner.... Not bad at all.... It gave me the itch as i helped him research and gather.... When I heard the Supernait at Stereotypes in Portland, I was sold. Although i couldn't afford the Supernait, i knew its predecessors must be worth their salt. I cant wait to hear the 102/180 through some real speakers. CHEERS!!!! Full reviews forthcoming... |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10084 Registered: Dec-04 | Patrick, you should be in for a real treat! The speakers and connects create the proper circuit for Naim amplification to work with, and THAT makes the system even better! Have fun! |
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New member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 10 Registered: Apr-08 | Nuck, I agree whole-heartedly. I "splurged" for Naim connectors on both ends of my NACA for just that reason. The speakers only came with one set. Also, i bought some additional footage so I can achieve the "minimum" NACA length of 3.5 meters (12 feet) according to Adam Merdith at Naim. I am trying to do everything by the book. Once we get passed the hurdle of the dealer not accepting Discover card  , I will have the Arivas on the way! |
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Bronze Member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 14 Registered: Apr-08 | It is officially done!!! The Arivas are mine and on the way to me! I cant wait. Thanks again for all the help everyone. On the next pair of speakers, hopefully I will be closer to dealers that have something more than Mirage and Thiel. So I can simply demo them myself. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6744 Registered: Feb-05 | Congrats Patrick!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 36 Registered: Apr-08 | Well, the system has been in place for a few weeks now. Although one of the Arivas arrived with a "loose" crossover inside. So while it getting repaired at NaimUSA (thanks to insured shipments), I have the weird situation of wanting to listen to one speaker. Instead, I hooked up one of my old Energy Pro Series 4.5. I used the balance control on the preamp to do some A/B testing on the speakers. I realize this is a silly comparision but I was curious how different they would be. And how far I have "upgraded". All i can say is the Energy's have a lot of boom to the bass. I hope I am using the term correctly when I say the Energy's "decay" is very slow, especially in the bass region. The sound seems to linger and make everything else muddy. The midrange is a bit muffled and sounds a little bit like it is coming from a tunnel. The treble is all acceptable. It is funny to think I have been using a sub with these speakers for some time. In some fashion it probably tightened things up a bit. Turn the balance over to the Ariva, and it sounds as though a blanket was pulled off of the speaker. Crystal clear and super fast, hyper detailed. The bass with the Ariva is tight, controlled and just to my liking. I dont feel anything is missing there. Playing the Ariva at ear blowing volumes seems to decrease everything it does right. But we are talking LOUD. On the other hand, at normal listening levels, and even lower, ALL of the sound is there. I surely would rather have this, than the need to really turn them up to make them sing. I cant wait until i have them both to properly demo them. So far, so good on the Naim front. I am VERY happy. Now if I could only find a suitable external DAC.... |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1296 Registered: May-06 | "Playing the Ariva at ear blowing volumes seems to decrease everything it does right. But we are talking LOUD." Could it be you were over driving your amp and not a speaker issue? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6878 Registered: Feb-05 | When he has them both he will really hear them sing and all will be right in the world! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10255 Registered: Dec-04 | I have to agree, mono does nothing. |
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Bronze Member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 38 Registered: Apr-08 | Michael, Sure, it could be.... The 180 is rated at 60 "Naim" Watts, and super stable at low ohm levels. And is more than enough it seems for the Ariva. My speaker was desgined in tandem with a 50w per channel integrated, albeit a newer design/model. I bet Art knows more about this than me.. Art, I cant wait. The speaker comes home on Tuesday... Im taking the day off!!! I did have them both for about two days. Since one left me, it has given me the unique ability to really play with the room so I can place the Arivas correctly. Prior to this, the left was in front of a window and about 12" from the wall. The right speaker was angled into a corner about 4 feet from the back corner/wall. The new configuration will have them flanking the fireplace, equally far from back wall. No sidewalls/mantles to block the sound. Nuck, I know this is not an ideal set-up to use one Ariva, and one Energy. But it is this or nothing. I admit I am not listening 4 hours a day right now!! But I cannot go without music completely. When I have the pair reunited and properly placed, I will post my reflections. If anyone cares.... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6902 Registered: Feb-05 | Looking forward to reading that Patrick. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2963 Registered: Sep-04 | So Patrick...results? |
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Bronze Member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 44 Registered: Apr-08 | Frank and Art....and all! I received my speaker from NANA yesterday as planned. They shipped it strapped to a pallet which is very nice (prevents dropping). When I got it home and set-up, and got my music rolling, I think I sat perfectly still in complete awe for about 4 hours. I put my Foobar on random and just listened away. Well.... first I put on my DCC Gold, Steve Hoffman mastering of Steely Dan's Katy Lied. I often use this as a test recording. Then i set to random. Not one song came up that begged me to pass it up. and there is some strange stuff on my hard drive. I am unfortunately super busy at work right now.... I will post a FULL review in a couple of hours, or as soon as possible. All i know is that I have NEVER heard anything like this from my personal kit. Only at a dealer or a friend with unlimited funds. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2798 Registered: May-05 | And that's what its all about, Patrick. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2973 Registered: Sep-04 | Hmmm, I'm not completely convinced about much of Steve Hoffman's work. Admittedly I've not really listened to any of this stuff on CD. I'm mainly talking about the DCC vinyl pressings. Many seem a touch soft and flat. I was particularly disappointed with the Elton John Greatest Hits DCC pressing which has fabulous songs on it but the disc is just plain flat and awful. Allegedly his remaster of Aqualung (Jethro Tull) is meant to be really excellent. A friend of mine has the original, the MFSL and is waiting for Hoffman's pressing. We shall see... Oh - glad to hear you rather like the Arivas by the way. |
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Bronze Member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 66 Registered: Apr-08 | I have a 24-96 FLAC vinyl transfer of that Hoffman Tull.... perhaps I could send you a DVD-R. I like it much, and I dont even really like them very much. Regarding Hoffman, flat? yes i guess so. Correct? I think as well. Of course he cannot work miracles with what he is given. Example, Icky Thump. WORST SOUNDING ALBUM EVER. It gives me a headache if listened to for more than 5 minutes. I get that it is their "sound", but the Vinyl mastering by Steve Hoffman is one of the worst things he's done. But back to his "sound". I find him the most "quietest" of any master of mastering. With maybe one exception in Barry Diamente. Meaning, he gives the recording as much room to breathe as possible. And you NEVER hear anything close to clipping. With Hoffman work, you just need to TURN IT UP! Most people like "louder" recordings, as we all know... But on very popular recordings/albums the versions we all are accustomed to hearing are the standard mixes, that have risen to insane volumes in the last few years. So when you hear "Whole Lotta Love" on the original Barry Diament mastering on Atlantic, it sounds "worse". Step back and really feel how easy the music is digested, and you will want no other. re: arivas... I am working up a little review of my impressions. I will post in a new thread, in case someone else rolls along seeking information... |
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Bronze Member Username: PcstocktonPost Number: 71 Registered: Apr-08 | My Ariva review is here.... https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/489973.html |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6963 Registered: Feb-05 | And a good one it is! |
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