Isolation/grounding/dampening devises
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1885 Registered: Nov-05 | I have put together some cheap isolation/dampening feet for my CD5i and after finding these perform better than the squash balls under our components with our glass shelving, I am getting more parts today to make the same feet for the rest of our kit. Each foot consists of a self adhesive felt pad, a rubber door stop (with a top recess for a screw) and a marble. The marble fits in the recess of the door stop, the felt pad goes under the door stop, and when put together the marble fits under the feet of the components, which I have found all have a small recess to hold the marble in place. The CD5i in particular has within the recess of it's feet a screw head which grounds to the marble - in turn any vibration entering the marble should be absorbed into the rubber door stop and any upward vibrations on the glass shelving should be dampened by the felt pad and door stop to prevent entering back into the components. That's my theory and it sure seems to work well - at least it does on the cdp. More high end detail, cleaner more spacious soundstage, tighter and deeper bass. Enough to stop me wondering about a CD555 (grin). Pictures coming soon Please post about your isolation devices with pics (if possible) whether DIY or bought. It may help others find what may be suitable for various components and shelving material etc. Thanks to Mike Wodek and Jan Vigne for putting me on this path. Sorry - devises should be devices. Can't edit thread title. |
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Diamond Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12420 Registered: May-04 | . "Enough to stop me wondering about a CD555 (grin)." Yeah, well, I hate to burst your bubble, Rantz, but as the equipment gets better it gets more prone to showing the benefits of tweaking. Buy the better player and all your tweaks get better along with it. Buy junk and no tweak really matters. Don'ya kinda wish you were still listening to a cheap receiver and crumby speakers? . |
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Platinum Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1886 Registered: Nov-05 | LOL! No - really I don't. I think I have moved in a far better direction music wise, but it has had its price. Mrs R would probably be happier if we stuck with the original stuff as supportive as she is. The squash balls work to a degree and I think if the shelves were thick timber they may have been enough. But the bits and pieces seen below with our glass shelved rack (which is on adjustable feet, not spikes) seem to do the trick - at least as far as I can go without upsetting my better half. Cost for each foot about $4.50 (still too much, but nothing cheap here).   BTW - the cabling disappears under normal lighting conditions - looks damn awful with the flash. |
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Platinum Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1228 Registered: May-06 | M.R. - A couple of us were discussing Constrained Layer Damping http://www.google.com/search?q=Constrained+Layer+Damping&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t& rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a The first thing I would do, having done it myself now, would be to do some dense damping with the TT. I moved mine to the floor, well a about 1 1/2 ft off of the floor with isolation and damping under it, but that was what a Linn needed, not sure about other TTs. The tennis balls, racket balls, neoprene plumbing end caps, Jenga tiles, and Black Diamond Racing Cones I have used all fit in the "isolation" bucket. I have been steered toward damping recently and found that for my amps, damping works best, for my Linn, a combination of damping and isolation works best (it no longer bounces around Nuck), and I have left my pre-amp, CD player, and tuner with isolation only, much as you have with your set up M.R.. I just made additional changes yesterday to the amps and TT so I am not going to experiment with damping on anything else right now as all of this sounds too good to mess with. BTW I like the idea of using each device's feet in the equation. That is what I did with my Pre-Amp, but then I added one more racket ball and neoprene cap (slightly taller) each under the tube and phono stage sections directly. I will try to get some pics up here sometime today. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6643 Registered: Feb-05 | Excellent thread... I find that you really have to experiment to find what each piece really likes. The spiked shelves on my Premier rack where the Rega sits appears to be exactly what the gear needs...anything else that I apply changes the sound but not for the better. However I'll keep trying....lol! The Rega feet are just the right size for my next attempted tweak, Golf balls on vibrapods...I'll try anything, and it's all fun! |
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Platinum Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1229 Registered: May-06 | Saturn  Kenwood  Isolation for Pre-amp  Dampening for Pre-amp  Complete Pre-amp isolation  MAC CLD Set Up  Anthony Gall S/A CLD Set up  Linn CLD with Isolation Set Up  The "New" new look  |
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Silver Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 233 Registered: Aug-06 | You crazy. Lol. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10009 Registered: Dec-04 | Great pics, MW, and well done. This sould be fun...JV doesn't have a camera...shame, really. Thanks for the thread, MR. |
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Platinum Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1323 Registered: Jun-07 | Awesome pics guys. M.R. That appears to be a Panny blu-Ray, when did u invest in that? |
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Platinum Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1887 Registered: Nov-05 | Mike - from construction site to Japanese tea garden. And I bet it sounds as sweet. Great pics and thanks for that link - I'll read some more on that. I almost bought those same balls at first, but knew I wouldn't get away with them - so I got the squash balls. But these MR-feet (I'll have to take out a patent ha-ha) seem to do the job nicely. Mrs R commented on how nice the music sounded. At least I put those few loose marbles she said I had to good use. Oh, I took away the timber base for the T/T as I found in the packing box some little metal discs for the coned feet. I packed blu-tak under the discs and mounted the coned feet of the T/T on them and there was no difference than having it on the timber base. I know it could benefit from further isolation as you suggested but it does okay without upsetting the aesthetics (read Mrs R). Maybe the BD player could benefit from a little weight on top. The top panel of the A5 is a bit ringy with a finger nail flick, but I tried a reasonably weighty book but noticed no difference so maybe the feet work with that also. I got the Panasonic BD player a little while back Nick - great picture and sound abilities. Also does very good DVD-A. Art, I know you posted those spiked shelves previously - If you could post a pic ot two here it'd be good. Yeah, it is a bit of fun tweaking things and getting results. Nuck - get JV a camera will ya? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2620 Registered: May-05 | "I moved mine to the floor, well a about 1 1/2 ft off of the floor with isolation and damping under it, but that was what a Linn needed, not sure about other TTs." If my memory serves me correctly, Linn has advised this as optimal placement for the LP12 for a very long time. No idea why. I think it was Jan who said people theorized that it was Linn's way of getting you to kneel down in front of their turntable. I've heard that from a few others as well. Rantz, Your contraption remind me of Vibracones. Have you tried yours with the marble side down? Vibrapod (maker of Vibracone) states to try them both ways and see which sounds better. Vibracones, and Rantzcones, side by side...   |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1895 Registered: Nov-05 | Stu - Thanks fir the pic and idea. I've seen the vibracones and vibrapods. Here they are about $11.00 each. As far as trying the Rantzcones (I like that) marble side down, it may well be benficial though the components would move with the slightest nudge. I may substitute the marbles for steel balls at some stage if I can obtain some cheap enough. Now that I have listened to much more music since I have tried this, the more satisfied I have become with this tweak. |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 146 Registered: Dec-07 | "As far as trying the Rantzcones (I like that) marble side down, it may well be benficial though the components would move with the slightest nudge." On glass shelves, it would probably walk off by itself. On another surface, possibly. It seems like glass shelves may be a more challenging surface to try and dampen than other materials? How soft is the rubber on the door stops? I recall that type being fairly hard. Vibration dampening can be solved theoretically for machinery and structures. This is often highly dependent on the spring constant of the dampening material, another way of describing how soft or hard it is by measuring how much force it takes to deform it a given amount. More specifically, it is the spring constant in relation to the natural frequency of the supporting structure and the exciting frequency of the equipment. I've encountered this is my engineering work. Audio applications, on the other hand, are on a micro scale and have many variables, explaining the need for a lot of experimentation to arrive at the best results. Interesting thread MR. Being in the market for an audio rack, my dampening at this point is limited to some corrugated cardboard underneath the spikes on my CDP, and the stock soft rubber feet on my amp, all sitting atop the highly sonic chest of drawers. As with everything in this hobby, when the new rack does arrive, it will change everything. MW, did you leave any repair couplings for the contractors? Has your wife discovered the missing flowers yet? LOL. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1897 Registered: Nov-05 | Neil, the door stops are reasonably hard, but do have a little resistance. Yep, one could experiment for weeks with different materials except there's a point where one may really lose his marbles - if you get my drift. At this point they seem to work fine, Maybe if I get another bright idea using cheap materials I may try something else. I only wish I had attached spikes to the feet of the rack before everything went in - I'd need a whole day or more for that task now. Let us know how the new rack goes and anything else you do for isolation etc. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6660 Registered: Feb-05 | All of my racks have spiked feet and are spiked at each level, either at the shelf or the rack level. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2849 Registered: Sep-04 | I would not put mild steel balls anywhere near the kit. If you must use steel ensure it's non-magnetic stainless steel. That said, most people doing this kind of tweaking talk highly of ceramic balls. Personally, I think these things introduce differences rather than all-one-way improvements most of the time. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1898 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks Frank about the steel balls. Maybe I'll just stick with the glass. I do believe the differences introduced with these feet are an improvement in our system and not just a difference. Maybe, to further experiment and to test your comment, after a few weeks of listening I'll take them all off and see how I like the music then. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12431 Registered: May-04 | . Frank - I don't get the bit about the steel bearings. What's "non-magnetic" got to do with anything in this location? They would probably be placed under a steel chassis. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1900 Registered: Nov-05 | I'm glad you asked that Jan, I should have. Though, in the case of the CDP I think (could be wrong) the chassis and casing is made from die-cast zinc. However, I'd like to know Frank's reason too. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10041 Registered: Dec-04 | M.R., the case will make for a nice sacrificial anode in case of corrosion close to the salt air. The steel or iron balls are a target for magnetism and noise, as I understand it. Also makes for electrolysis from the steel(or zinc) body, creating a chance of noise. Glass or ceramic are better, the glass setting up harmonics due to the loose body structure, face center cubic in nature. Ceramics are random structure by design. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12432 Registered: May-04 | . "The steel or iron balls are a target for magnetism and noise, as I understand it." Yo! Nuck! Yeah, I get it, steel is attracted by magnetic force. But magnetic force from where? Noise from where? If the chassis is constructed of steel, as you will find in many highend pieces of equipment, what's the ball going to add? "Also makes for electrolysis from the steel(or zinc) body, creating a chance of noise." So, we're planning on running how many Volts through the chassis at what temperature to accomplish molten electrolysis? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis Aren't most steel ball bearings you would find in a hardware store stainless anyway? "Though, in the case of the CDP I think (could be wrong) the chassis and casing is made from die-cast zinc." Go stick a magnet up against it, MR, just to check. . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1901 Registered: Nov-05 | Well, the magnetic puck never sticks to the Naim's casing, it does to the M55's casing. Oh, and Nuck - we are a bit inland to worry about the salt air. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1236 Registered: May-06 | Neil, LOL, that was good. Instead of cardboard go to a local discount store and by a Jenga game. It has all the wooden tiles one would need to use for isolation under their gear. I had Black Diamond Racing Cones, some with Pucks under all of my gear and even though they cost about 50 times what the Jenga game cost they made things too "tinny" for me. The wooden tiles provided a more natural harmonic musical presentation for me. I still have them somewhere between something on all my gear. |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 148 Registered: Dec-07 | "Aren't most steel ball bearings you would find in a hardware store stainless anyway?" I would doubt it Jan. Most are steel, even in fairly expensive bearings. Much of the stainless is Type 304 and magnetic. Type 316 stainless, which is nonmagnetic, is more expensive and, I suspect, hard to find in a hardware store. That said, I don't get the issue with the steel either Frank. "M.R., the case will make for a nice sacrificial anode in case of corrosion close to the salt air." True Nuck, and it will be sacrificial in contact with a more noble metal (just about anything except magnesium if I recall) as well, so would not be a good idea to have steel in direct contact with die cast zinc. Better have a nonmetallic nonconducting material between the two metals. How did we get onto this? Oh yeah, it's Frank's fault. LOL. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1237 Registered: May-06 | If your gear is not tinny enough I have some Black Diamond Racing Cones and Pucks I could sell you! They really have their place in the right applications all kidding aside, it just wasn't in my room unfortunately. Equally unfortunately was my not realizing that until after I had so many. I think as I made upgrades to my gear, room treatments, ICs, and speaker wire, they went from a good thing to a bad thing for me. They are made out of Carbon Fiber. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1902 Registered: Nov-05 | "Better have a nonmetallic nonconducting material between the two metals." Maybe, but in my case they wouldn't be against the zinc chassis, they would be in contact with the steel screw recessed inside the rubber feet. Although this has started a good discussion, it may be hypothetical anyway - I was only going to try this if I happened across some cheap steel balls. Maybe I should ask our ex prime minister lol! Frank - you have some 'splaining to do! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1904 Registered: Nov-05 | I had these rubber domed tap washers set on copper spindles and for interest sake, set these (spindle first) into the screw hole of the door stops so the dome sat in the recess of the CD5i's feet to replace the marbles. I thought maybe more dampening and less grounding . . . I played half of Boz Scagg's Sierra and that was enough. When I put the marbles back that extra excitement in the music was back also - just a touch more of dynamics, clearness and refinement makes that much difference to the music. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2860 Registered: Sep-04 | Hello, Whoa! What a reaction. Sorry about the wait guys. Jan, MR is using this arrangement under his CD5i. The Naim is purposely not a steel chassis. It's actually a zinc galvanized aluminium alloy. Pressed steel would be a lot cheaper. MR, ensure the Naim's rubber feet rest on the bearings, not the screw. The Naim's feet are purposely designed, not just add-ons. For example, the CDX2's feet may look the same, but are actually made of aluminium (they slide - easily!). This was chosen because Naim felt the player sounded better this way. The large toroidal transformer of the player is almost directly above the front right foot. The transformer is not shielded so a magnetic ball directly below it could affect its performance. All that said, we have noted at the shop that stands and supports made of magnetic or ferrous material seem to have a particular effect on the sound of equipment in general. We used to attribute this to the almost inevitable glass shelves used in the typical welded items of the Target, Soundstyle or Sound Organisation variety. Times have moved on and MDF with aluminium has become more popular. Direct comparisons to equipment of the ferrous ilk shows a more balanced, less bright presentation. The only situation where metal doesn't seem to affect the design is where it's non-magnetic. We don't know the real reason why this should be the case but have observed its effect on numerous occasions. Now my problem is convincing speaker stand manufacturers to use Aluminium instead of steel where the effect should be even more pronounced thanks to the high energy and magnetic effects of many unshielded driver units. Aluminium prices have shot through the roof in recent years so it's more difficult to argue in that direction too. I hope this explains my reasoning... Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1905 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks Frank, not being an electrical engineer I take your word for your explanation (that and because of your usual reliable information). I have the glass marbles in the door stops in contact with the screws within the Cd5i's feet and believe me, it makes all the difference - for me anyway. I'm sure some manufacturers like Naim go to trouble to isolate/dampen vibrations, but aesthetics must play a part in their design as well - so ugly probably wouldn't do for the sake of a better solution. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 181 Registered: Oct-07 | any material which can conduct electricity will ALSO have a magnetic field. Even Aluminum. It is called paramagnetic. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 182 Registered: Oct-07 | And furthermore, ANY two different metals put together will also have a slight current. It is called the 'thermoelectric effect'. The opposite is the 'Sebek Effect' which is when a current is passed thru a metal junction of 2 different metals, one gets warm and the other cold. Bismuth and Antimony is one such junction and while there are no hi-fi uses for this metal combination, I have seen such a junction simultaniously boil and freeze water on each side of the junction. I suspect that such junctions in interconnects may account for some effects heard and reported on. Metals do not have to be MOLTEN to move, either. In semiconductors, the phenom of Electromigration is known and part of any device design....for lifetime. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10049 Registered: Dec-04 | Keep going, Leo |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 183 Registered: Oct-07 | don't encourage him..... hey! that's ME your talking about. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2870 Registered: Sep-04 | Leo You're right but to al intents and purposes, the magnetic field provided by a zinc-coated aluminium allow is so low as to be unremarkable, whereas that fforded by iron or steel is significant. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 171 Registered: Aug-04 | I don't know, Frank and some of you other guys certainly know a lot more about the sciences and technical aspects of this stuff. But all I can tell you about this is that I get the best results (to my own ears and my own personal sound preferences) from bamboo cutting boards, sheets of 1/4" and 1/2" neoprene, sheets of Sorbothane and Mapleshade IsoBlocks; as isolations and platforms. I simply don't use anything metal or glass in terms of platforms, footers or racks. All three equipment racks are (1) custom made yellow pine and (1) are oak with a dark cherry finish (1)the other is oak with a Merlot finish (which is close enough to dark cherry, anyway). All wood. For most non-sources (except turntables), I lay a sheet of 1/4" neoprene on the shelf itself (1/2" for the heavy amps). Then bamboo cutting block over that. Then Sorbothane sheets cut to size under the feet. For sources Same as above with the exception that I use the 12x12x1/8" sheets of Sorbothane (rather than cutting them to size), I double layer them (for 1/4" of Sorbothane) and then place the IsoBlocks over them and the component rest atop the Isoblocks. With turntables I use the directly above mentioned method, minus the Isoblocks. And I level all of my components. All I know is that it sounds best to my ears, with my gear. Truth be told, I try to not have anything metal or glass in the rooms; except the windows (of course) and a few other fixtures like door knobs and stuff that I really have no choice with. My thinking is to dampen as much as possible and let the music come directly from the gear with a little as possible vibrations and resonances. I'm sure there are those who will disagree with my approach, but my ears tell me this is the best approach for me. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 172 Registered: Aug-04 | Ooops, forgot to mentions that my Rega Saturn, with it's under-chasis heat sinks; gets the same as the turntables. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1907 Registered: Nov-05 | NmyTree Sounds like a great approach. How about some pics? |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 173 Registered: Aug-04 | Hopefully soon, M.R. Having gone through a divorce over the last 15 months and a plethora of family illness; I'm settling down into a new house, a new life and a huge mess of boxes to unpack and set up. So it will take a little more time to get everything in photographic/presentable shape. I've been wanting to take pics of all three systems and rooms, for a while now. Hopefully it will happen very soon  |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1910 Registered: Nov-05 | Sorry about your troubles N, hope things improve for you. It'll be good to see your shots when they happen. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10053 Registered: Dec-04 | NMT, comforts from another guy in the similar spot. Take care. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2887 Registered: Sep-04 | Damn - divorce sounds like such a messy affair! I couldn't cope with the upheaval I reckon. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12456 Registered: May-04 | . It's better to stick it out for the sake of the sofa I suppose. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 185 Registered: Oct-07 | A few final thoughts: 99% of hardware holding stuff together is steel/iron. Even stainless, except for a few alloys of Monel (lots of nickel) will either be magnetic or paramagnetic and produce a magnetic field. large plates of any metal will have eddy currents. But, I DO really like NMT's approach with lots of wood and little/no metal. Wood is a 'natural composite' and has so many resonance modes that none will dominate. Laminated stacks like sorbothane/bamboo/neoprene make perfect sense. Not springy, but yet isolated. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2894 Registered: Sep-04 | My sofa's on its last legs... |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1922 Registered: Nov-05 | Frank, as long as it sits you in the sweet spot! |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 175 Registered: Aug-04 | Thanks. Sorry to hear you've been going through the same thing, Nuck. It kind of suckks. Well, it suckks for a long time, then, it gets better and I started to feel liberated....or something like that. I felt a huge weight lifted from my shoulders (after her and her lawyer liberated me of some money and other things). I lost my Mac c220 and mc252 in the heat of the battle. She focused on those two pieces becasue they were my last two big purchases and because she is familiar with the "prestige" of the McIntosh name. Ultimately those were the two pieces I could get the most re-sale value for and by selling them and handing over the cash; she backed off the rest of my gear and LP, CD, DVD and SACD collections. But what she doesn't know is that I sold them to a wonderful, close friend of mine (who's rather well-off financially, now) and he's essentially holding them for me till I can get back on my feet and buy them back from him.  I'm going to have to wait roughly a year anyway, because if she sees them back in my house too soon. She'll probably flip out. He too has been through a bad divorce. His offer to do such a thing was generous to no end. But it was as much a bonding and unity of two men have been battered and bruised by the divorce process, joining together to somehow feel a slither of triumph in the cut throat, blloody wasteland known as marriage. But I'm not bitter |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 263 Registered: Jul-07 | I've recently purchase a few of these... http://www.brightstaraudio.com/isonode.htm I purchased two sets of the smaller feet and one set of the larger feet for my tube amp. Very inexpensive so I figured what the heck. They work exactly as advertised. I would say the difference is more material than an interconnect or speaker cable upgrade. I'm very impressed with them. I removed the stock feet on my amp for the larger isonodes, and attached the smaller ones to my DAC and Transport. These are really no-brainer material. If you are already doing something to isolate your equipment you may not notice as big an improvement I suppose, but I noticed quite a difference for the better. |
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