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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 27 Registered: Mar-08 | In the process of setting up a new audio system. Looking at input devices. I've got a Jeff Rowland's Concerto Integrated. No speakers yet. Mostly listen to CDs. Jazz, Rock, Classical. Have been leaning toward Rega Saturn or Cambridge Audio Azur 840c. Haven't found a place in Tucson to demo them. In fact, having trouble finding an Rega dealer other than in Dallas. What I like about CA 840c: - Has digital inputs so may be able to use it as both a CD and a DAC. Supports various input up to 192K/24. Not sure if I'll end up with a server some day or not but interested that can use it that way. - Has balanced outputs that I can use with my pre-amp. - Front loading. - Upsampling - Has digital outputs that can output upsampled data to 48K/96K/192K/24 - not sure what I'll do with that but interesting. What I don't like about the Rega - No balanced outputs - To loader Have seen forums and reviews comparing it to Rega Apollo and Rega Saturn. Most seem to say that Saturn and 840c are both great and comperable - though different sound to most. I've also seen that there are some upgrades for CA. Can get a new CA for $1375. There's a used Saturn for $1700 on audiogon so prices are comperable. Any opinions on these or others for equivalent or more $ (say up to 3K used). Has anyone tried the CA as a DAC and have any opinions on its performance? Has anyone tried any of the upgrade mods for the CA and have an opinion on them? Synergy with the Rowland?? From just the functional end, I like the CA. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 207 Registered: Jul-07 | What is your current source now ? What do you like and not like about it ? |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1882 Registered: Nov-05 | That's a good question from C.H. Though as you have no speakers yet, I'm assuming you have no source either. Both cdp's you listed are very, very good. And there are plenty others like Musical Fidelity and Naim for example. However, even for those who have heard both and can offer some advice for your system it is still your ears that are most important for your decision. Unless you can purchase and get your money back or at least recoup your money, then auditioning for yourself is most important for such a critical part of an audio kit. As for digital extras, again only you can decide if they are necessary for your future listening habits. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 28 Registered: Mar-08 | Well, I have a Sony CD/DVD Player DVP N725P that I'm playing through a TOSLINK cable to a Yamaha RX-V595 AV receiver to a pair of KLH AV5001 speakers through some minimal speaker cables. I find my CDs sound rather 'dull'. The system seems to lacking in imaging, sound stage, transparency, top end, and bottom end, and middle is muddled. Cymbals don't sizzle, kicks don't thunk, detail is cluttered, strings lack realism. I find it basically lacking on most fronts. Perhaps I've not beaten the bushes enough in searching Tucson, but the one or two audio stores in town don't seem to carry a lot of stuff. The most likely candidate carries Rotel, but didn't have their 1072 on the floor right now. I'm overdue for a trip to say Phoenix or LA where it's more likely I'll find access to more equipment to compare. I've been leaning toward getting some good headphones set up before I go after a speaker decision, but I've got to start somewhere to get even there. I agree that listening would be the best, and perhaps only real way, for me to know I got the one I like the best. However, I'm worried I'm probably going to end up having to make some of these decisions with only access to the opinions of others and hope it comes out OK. And with road trips, it still going to be deceptive as to how it will sound in my home with my amp (once I pick out some speakers). I'm guess I was thinking of these two, they both seem to be pushing the front end of sonics with a mid-range price, and probably would have reasonable resale value if worst came to worst - especially if I go used. You can see from my first post, I'm probably leaning toward the function set on the 840c, but was curious if anyone though that the Saturn was in a altogether different class of player than the 840c. Obviously, there are other options as well. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 171 Registered: Oct-07 | LA is fine, but if you come to SoCal, don't leave out SanDiego. There are 2 nice stores within 25 miles, easy drive which carry, among others, Pass Labs, Rega, Naim, Rotel, NAD, CA, Mac, BelCanto, PS Audio, Magnepan, B&W, and it goes on and on. San Diego is a little easier on traffic and just finding stuff. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9989 Registered: Dec-04 | RR, both players you listed are very good. I have spent more time with the Saturn than the 840, but neither will let you down. Functionally, the CA is extremely flexible. Sonically, well you know the story there. Super duper integrated amp, btw. Goung for a source now is perfect timing, and the headphone thought is good as well. Balanced players are rare at this price/quality. I like it. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 209 Registered: Jul-07 | I can't speak to synergy with Rowland, but both of the players you mentioned above are thought to be very good. You would notice the world of difference, assuming you've got the downstream electronics to support it. The issues you have with your current setup are so numerous and varied it's impossible to determine what sort of objectives you have, or what type of sound you are looking for. Do you prefer a highly detailed presentation, slightly bright ? slightly warm ? or something very liquid and full ? are things like imaging and soundstaging important to you ? There are many good cdp's and dac's, but they are good in different ways. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9994 Registered: Dec-04 | Rowland is unlikely to damage any good source. Very very good. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 29 Registered: Mar-08 | Leo, Thanks for the tip. What were the store names? |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 30 Registered: Mar-08 | Chris_H, I think I feel a little like the nubie wine affectionato trying to describe wine when I try to describe what I like about sound - and while I could perhaps steal words from audio reviewers, I'm not sure I can equate their terminology to what I'm trying to describe sonically. Anyway, here goes - I like large sound stages and sharp imaging - horizontal width and depth more important than vertical (what ever happened to quadrasonic 4-track cassette tapes, anyway? - now I'm showing my age). I like it when you can tell the size of a room from the acoustics on a live recording. I like it when vocal recordings reveal the details of what some humans are so capable of delivering - some send chills down your spine or make you cry. Attack edge of notes should be precise. I'm talking about the cluster of harmonics at the point the instrument starts to sounds. You can hear how a guitar pick is held on a good recording. Bow strings do very intersting things to strings as well at the beginning of a note. Cymbals are very complex sonically when heard live - they seem to lose a lot detail on some recordings and on some equipment. Acoustics instruments should sound like they do live. Real brass should not sound like a brass synthesizer on an electronic keyboard. Electric guitar amps that have fat rich harmonics from driving tubes into saturation should sound that way coming back off the recording and not lose their grit. A kick should punch if it's that type of music. Not sure I understand 'warm'. I'd probably say that I'm more interested in hearing the realism of the recording than softening it up to make it pretty. Certainly wouldn't want something that adds reverb, delay, ambience, harmonics, dynamic compression, or EQ (at least if I can't control it) - certainly nothing that is anything like some processors do trying to turn stereo sources into a surround output (who in God's name dreamed up the 'Hall' and 'Statium' settings on prologic in my Yamaha receiver). From playing guitar through amps, I can say tube saturation is 'warmer' than solid state state saturation (if you've ever seen the two on an oscilliscope, you can see the difference) - but on a linear amplifier - I'm not sure I know what the difference might be - but perhaps that's the feel of it though. I think it might be possible to go too warm or too cold for my tastes - that's it - I want the Goldielocks sound - just right. I picked the Rowland Concerto in part because its a competent current source at 250W/CH into 8 ohms and has been called a 'warm' solid state. I'm thinking this will be a good middle ground for precision without being too harsh. (Bryston was too cold, McIntosh was too hot, Rowlands was just right). BTW - the Rowland just showed up on UPS truck today - I'm setting here looking at it wondering what it will sound like. The anticipation is akin to drooling over a fat juicy steak on the other person's plate. Bright might be another fuzzy term for me. I'll say this - I've listened some to some B&W's (804S, 803D) - their good, and I might even consider them - but I'm not sure I'm getting quite the realism I want out of them - a bit too neutral - this could just be my first impressions, or the room, setup, equipment, whatever. Maybe the 802Ds will WOW me - whenever find some to listen to. I can relate to listening fatigue as well and I know that some speakers can sound good for a while but get very tiresome in extended sessions. That being said - I think that I might like some brightness if you're talking about something that applies across the whole spectrum and not just saying to punch up the high end. Perhaps a little forward is more of what I thinking - if that's bright? In the distant past, I was much impressed with what I heard coming through headphones off of vinyl (granted it's easier to image when you've got a speaker wrapped around each ear) and it's been a while since I've gotten that excitement out of music. I remember when I 'upgraded' to my current system from something I think I won't even bother describing, I didn't have a good place to set up a TT easily and was noticing that my Led Zepplin II CD didn't sound like I remembered the record. So I took the trouble to set up the TT temporarily at least and A/B'ed them. What I noticed was the record was more or less devoid of highs, having been eaten too often by a marginal TT. The CD had all the highs so it gave the impression of being a bit bottom light. I ended up feeling that the CD was better in detail - but a bit lacking in excitement - maybe hollow?. I've been hoping some of the newer CD players will restore some more excitement and realism to my CD collection. I haven't decided whether I'm going to get a TT yet, but I'm suspect about the quality of my old records and not sure I want to try to invest in collecting a lot of new vinyl - but I haven't ruled that out. Probably will play with a music server before I try going back to records - especially if higher definition recordings become more generally downloadable - I don't miss the scratches, pops, and skips. Anyway - I've babbled more than enough here to either convince you am an idiot or to at least give you some thoughts on what I'm hoping for. If I didn't hit on some point that's relevant to the selection process, you're going to have to prod me with some questions. |
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Platinum Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1224 Registered: May-06 | RR, The problem I have with headphones is it is nothing like the presentation I get from my kit. I almost never use my Senns. The sound you get from your Roland should be in the same ballpark as I get from my MAC. They are different but not radically. My Gallos are synergistic with my MAC SS, Rogue tube pre-amp, and Saturn. They are very cohesive not a difficult load. You should give them a listen if you find some in your travels. Warmth and brightness can be managed, maybe fine tuned would be a better way of expressing it, with speaker wire, ICs and room treatments. Once you find your basic "Sound" you can really work with what you have to tune it to your perfect "Sound". Records don't have to be expensive if you know where to look, but that's another story for another thread. There is nothing like the sound of a vinyl recording. My opinion, others will differ. I appreciate your explanation above, well thought out and easy to comprehend where your head is at with this. M.R. is right on, you have to spend time doing the listening. You express a familairity with music so you should not worry too much about what you hear in a demo in a dealers room. No matter what you hear there it will sound different in your set up. That is where the work comes in, tuning your set up to get the sound you want. I never would have bought my Gallos or Apollo (since upgraded to Saturn) if I had to base it on my audition. I just heard enough from them to know what I wanted was there someplace. I was not disappointed in either purchase because both really shined when I brought them home. Oh, for what it's worth, my Saturn does all those things you identified above. But it doesn't do it on its own. That's where the synergy becomes so important. Good luck! |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 31 Registered: Mar-08 | Hi Nuck. Good to hear from you again. From the last forum we taked in - you said 'there so much more to it' - would be interested in what you were thinking about. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 174 Registered: Oct-07 | Stereo Design is down in SD inland DSS is in Carlsbad, near the Famous flower fields If your here on a Sunday, you can take in the worlds ONLY MUNICIPAL OUTDOOR PIPE ORGAN......San Diego, even in the midst of financial BS you wouldn't believe, still employs a MUNICIPAL ORGANIST. 1 hour concerts each Sunday. The tone of the instrument changes seasonally. Much nicer in wet/winter weather. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 32 Registered: Mar-08 | Leo - thanks again for the store references. Michael, thanks for the clue about JRGD and Mc SS similarity (the Concerto pre-amp is also SS but supposedly sounds warm) - it will help finding equivalent setups. And I'll check out the Gallos, too. I'll have to read up some more on cables - I've read some but not nearly enough to know what I should be doing there or how it will affect the sound - but that's a latter problem I think. I got the Rowland hooked up to my KLHs with a slightly later generation Sony DVD/CD player (still in the $120 category). The speakers are LIT UP! Bottom end is hugh and refined. High end is great. Imaging and sound stage is much better. I'm amazed. I've never heard those speakers sound that good. There's so much more detail now. I can hear already that I really like this amplifier. If a new source (and new speakers) opens things up that much more, I'm going to be in rapture. I'm noticing I had it turned up loud enough that my ears are ringing now - probably need to watch that. I may just pause here and bask in the sound a while before I do anything. It is so much better. Or at least I can wait long enough to make a trip to listen to some equipment. Anyway - along the lines of characterizing different players - if anyone could clue me in on where they think different CD players or DACs in this class have relative strengths or weaknesses (warmth, brightness, sound stage, imaging, fulidity, or liquidity, dynamics) - particularly something like player A is warmer than player B - I'd be pretty interested - might help me correlate my own impressions. Also any thoughts on how to sniff out synergy other than going through all the permutations and listening? I've already placed one anchor with the amp purchase. For instance, if I go with CD player A, might it influence choosing speaker B so that I now have to worry about both choices at the same time (in the context of the amp as well)? I'm sure your going to all say "of course - go listen". I know this is getting down to touchy feely kind of opinions, but any guidance would be appreciated. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 33 Registered: Mar-08 | Michael_W. You're tweeking me with the vinyl comment - what TTs do you like with your setup? Did have any specific online sources for cheap vinyl or were you just saying I need to locate someone motivated at selling them at a bargin? Link to somewhere (forum, whatever) to find out? Sorry been out of this loop for at least 20 years. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10004 Registered: Dec-04 | RR, vinyl can be had for cheap at yard sales, estate sales and the used book and music stores. As for your new enlightenment..I told you Rowland does no wrong! Look for a Rega Apollo cdp. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 34 Registered: Mar-08 | Michael_W Are you using Gallo Nucleus 3.1 Reference? If so are you using the second voice coil on the woofers? If so what are you driving it with? Gotta dig into this one more - especially the base extension with the second voice coil. From just looking at their web page - the side mounted 10" 's look good - especially at a $3K price point. I noticed this concept on Audio Physic's stuff and thought it looked at least space efficient, probably great for imaging and perhaps a way to get a lot more bottom end. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 35 Registered: Mar-08 | Nuck, You're keeping me straight here. It's worth at least a few rounds of your favorite scotch if we ever connect (and I can guess what your favorite scotch will cost). Are you saying you like the Apollo over the Saturn or the 840c for the money difference (i.e. diminishing returns)? And go with a different DAC if I end up there? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10007 Registered: Dec-04 | RR, The Apollo is 90% of the Sarurn for a lot less$, although the price did go up on the Apollo just a month or so ago. If you are somewhat price variable, you will find a lot of Naim admirers here as well. The Gallo ref 3.1 are, IMHO, a terrific speaker setup, and I really like what Mike has done with his. Read his profile. |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 511 Registered: Jul-07 | I assume you have read the complaints about CA reliability and service. I don't know which models had problems. It is something to look into. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6635 Registered: Feb-05 | I honestly believe that the Rowland amp should have a step up in source from the Rega's and CA's such as an Esoteric or Ayre. The Rowland amps are just so damn good that they deserve only the best. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 214 Registered: Jul-07 | Rick, thanks for the thoughtful description. Folks on here are most helpful if they have the lay of the land. If you've got the budget there are lots of options. If you're a little budget constrained but still want a large step up from the DVD player, you could also go the DAC route. Audio Zone makes a brilliant DAC, filterless, that is neither edgy nor overly warm. Lots of detail, but more analogue sounding than many. I think its in the $1200 range. For half that is the CI Audio DAC, also very good, and in another league from the player you have. As Art states, if you really want all that the Rowland can give you, you'll need to give all of this a miss and go up into another league. |
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Platinum Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1226 Registered: May-06 | Rick, Add Craigslist to what Nuck mentioned, that and if you don't see records at a garage sale, ask. Yes I have the Ref. 3.1a Gallos. I use the Gallo S/A with them. It makes more of a difference than just below 35hz. It adds more weight overall to the bass. The Apollo being 90% of the Saturn is fair for some music. For what I listen to, mostly classic rock, they are in different leagues. I like the Apollo more for non-amplified music, that is where the 90% would be more on target. I like Art's comment on the step up. My Apollo seemed well mated with MA Silver 8i's but the Gallo's and Saturn are better mates for each other. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 36 Registered: Mar-08 | This is all very helpful, but need to leave town for a few days so will probably be offline. I'll post something when I get back if not sooner. Thanks so much for the suggestions so far. I've got more questions, but want to research some of the products that have been suggested here already a bit. Had not heard about a CA problem. Was catching something on Saturn's locking up or skipping on some small % of the models. My budget's probably still in the $3K or so range new or used for an input devices which right now was going to head toward a CD player (or DAC?). The $3K was based on about a $10K system budget and the amp's used $3200 of that. Any other product recommendations to consider besides the ones mentioned? BTW - the other CD Player I hooked up was actually a Panasonic upconverting DVD Player - DVD S53. I think it was in the $400 range - probably still low end and mostly video focused - but might also be a step up from the first DVD player I mentioned above. The Gallo's are still looking very good -have you noticed any show up used? There not that old, but old enough to see some traffic. I noticed a few SA's out there. Don't see the R3.1's in Audiogon's blue book even, yet. What do you DAC guys drive your DACs with? Mac PCs? Are you converting your CDs or downloading? Another area I've spend too litle time investigating. |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 512 Registered: Jul-07 | "...Gallo's are still looking very good -have you noticed any show up used?..." Yes, have seen on AudiogoN! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 216 Registered: Jul-07 | "What do you DAC guys drive your DACs with? Mac PCs? Are you converting your CDs or downloading? Another area I've spend too litle time investigating." You can drive it with a number of devices, depending on the options available on your particular DAC. Nuck has an interesting setup. I was driving mine with my NAD cdp, but have since found my Oppo player sounds better. It's one less piece I need to have in my stereo stand too, which is good cuz I need to find space for my Rega TT once it's repaired. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10010 Registered: Dec-04 | Nuck HAD an interesting setup! I will revamp it. The pc with CL soundcard and sp/dif out to the Classe Dac was really exciting. The next incarnation will be better yet! Thanks, CH. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 37 Registered: Mar-08 | So I had an exciting trip! I traveled to Orlando for 4 days of business, and was returning through Dallas on American Airlines when ... uh ... well ... uh .. I got stuck in Dallas for 2.5 more days. I almost decided to drive home, but would have taken 2 of the 2.5 days. What fun. The upside was I found a stereo shop that had a set of Gallo 3.1 Refs with an SA. They also had Vandersteen and I spent a little time with a 5a Ref. The Gallo top end sounded great - imaging, transparency, and sound stage were stagering. The bottom end was not bad - but not great - not sure about how I felt about the SA. I'll have to say that the room was smallish, the Vandersteen 5a's were already in the prime location, and the Gallos got placed pretty far into the room with the woofers pointing in - not the best way to re-enforce the base. At about 4x the price, the Vandersteens were much more refined and the bottom end had significantly more detail. I wish they would have had a pair of Quatro's set up to listen to - the dealer thought they got you 95% of the way to the 5a's at less than 1/2 the price. I'll have to say I was pretty impressed with the sound I heard through the 5a's (best - and most expensive - thing I've heard yet), though I didn't have much time on them and was just listening to some classical - the definition in the string bases compared to the Gallo's was stagering. Also A/B'ed his Oppo CD player to his $8K ClearAudio TT on one recording. Both good - but the TT definitely had something more to it. Will look forward to some A/Bs with a more capable CD player and a less capable TT. But back to the CD Players.... "I honestly believe that the Rowland amp should have a step up in source from the Rega's and CA's such as an Esoteric or Ayre. The Rowland amps are just so damn good that they deserve only the best." So I was looking at the Ayre's. Are you suggesting their CX-7e($3K) or the C-5xe($6K)? One forum seemed to think the C-5xe was better than the CX-7e on redbook. Stereophile reviews seemed to like the CX-7e for redbook over the C-5xe on redbook. My collection is all red book right now. Other than access to the other format's am I missing much with the CX-7e at 1/2 the price? |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 38 Registered: Mar-08 | "I honestly believe that the Rowland amp should have a step up in source from the Rega's and CA's such as an Esoteric or Ayre. The Rowland amps are just so damn good that they deserve only the best." On the Teac's - are you talking about the SA-10 ($3500), SZ-1 ($4700), X05 ($5600)? - boy they have a lot of players ... |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1250 Registered: May-06 | Rick, John Fort does have a nice set up. The Gallos do much better at my place than they did at his. Cohesiveness on the Gallos is a major plus. I run 300 wpc channel into mine, I do not know what he had on them for you. When he had tubes (Quick Silver) running them they were a bit flat to me. Could be he did not have them dialed in yet as he and I discussed later. John is one of two dealers who I really trust. I guess now I have to go back and listen to the Vandies. Was he running them with the McCormick or the Evergreen? Did you notice the amp he had on the Gallos? And yes that room is too small for the Gallos FWIW. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6691 Registered: Feb-05 | "On the Teac's - are you talking about the SA-10 ($3500), SZ-1 ($4700), X05 ($5600)? - boy they have a lot of players ..." Try whichever is available. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6692 Registered: Feb-05 | The Vandersteen 5a's are one of my all time favorite listens. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 39 Registered: Mar-08 | I'm noticing Audiogon's got a Esoteric DV-50 (upgraded to DV-50S) for $2395 and a DV-60 for $3500. Anyone know how these relate to their audio line? Looks like they are multi-format audio. Looks like the SA-60 and DV-60 are related. Would either of these be good? |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 40 Registered: Mar-08 | Michael, John was very helpful. I'm pretty sure he had the McCormick. He had the Vandy 5a's bi-cabled. I think he hooked the Gallo's up to the same amp but he said he used a Y cable and it wasn't the optimum choice. I believe you are correct about the coherence on the Gallo's (and probably the Vandy's also). John like both lines for this characteristics. The sound stages on both were really great. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 41 Registered: Mar-08 | "You can drive it with a number of devices, depending on the options available on your particular DAC. Nuck has an interesting setup. I was driving mine with my NAD cdp, but have since found my Oppo player sounds better. It's one less piece I need to have in my stereo stand too, which is good cuz I need to find space for my Rega TT once it's repaired." I just read up on the Benchmark DAC-1. This sounds like a great product at a great price. They claim that their re-clocking is dead-on independent of source and cabling. Has anyone played around with one. Does anyone have any thoughts on whether the transport (or server) is going to make any difference to the sound with this DAC in the chain? What would be the cause of any difference? For instance, is the quality of the sound going to be just as good with my cheap Sony DVD/CD player as with someone's much better transport? They also support PCM at any frequency from 28kH to 198kH over Coax, Toslink, AES/SPDIF, or USB. Am I going to be locked out of something by not having DSD or AC3? Should I be looking for a redbook transport that upsamples and outputs PCM at 96kH or 192kH or stick with a standard 44kH red book transport? |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 248 Registered: Jul-07 | The Oppo I use has a configurable PCM frequency...with 3 settings, 44, 96, and 192 if I remember correctly. To my ear the lower setting sounds best. I demo'd the Benchmark DAC at home before I bought mine. It's a fine player. It was just a tad leaner than I than I prefer. I prefered the CI Audio. I talked with Dusty Vawter about the transport question for my DAC. His thoughts were that the DAC accounts for about 90% of the sound quality. You would notice a difference with transports, but it wouldn't be a night and day difference. I found that to be true so far at least. I noticed more difference switching digital cables than switching transports. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10088 Registered: Dec-04 | I played Neil Young 1971 at Massey Hall last night on both the trans/dac and Pioneer dvd, both digital to the dac. The biggest difference was a lack of space with the dvd player, but I didn't turn it off like. The Classe transport let the dac read hdcd, the Pioneer did not. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 42 Registered: Mar-08 | So the big Vandy's aren't working out - their sub is ramp'ed up 6dB per octave with the assumption that you put their LPF between your pre-amp and amp (to ramp down at 6 dB per octave at 100Hz). It's actually clever in that it spares your amp the LF load and keeps the amp's signature in the Sub's signal path - but my integrated amp doesn't have an interconnect between the preamp and the amp (could go to bi-amp'ing with another pair of mono-blocks but that's probably more trouble than it's worth for now). What would you say about the Benchmark DAC-1 with the Rowland Concerto and Dali Euphonia MS5 for synergy? People seem to say they like the Dali's with SS amps (or prehaps just ones that have enough umph). From the discussion and press, the Benchmark is going to be crisp but maybe not especially warm? Is that something that interconnects might help? Which brands? The Rowland has no EQ so am I going to have issues with a warm TT and cold DAC? I was toying with an Esoteric DV-60 or SA-60 but just wish they had a DAC input. Thinking I'm going to end up with a music server at some point to get to 96K/24 source. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 255 Registered: Jul-07 | I can't really speak to the synergy of the DAC-1 to your other components. I have no experience with thim. As to warming up the sound with interconnects if necessary, I suppose you could. Here's my concern with that though. IMO, I see cables in general as enablers. If they are doing their job they largely just get out of the way. If you have an issue that you're trying to correct with cables, you're largely taking something that isn't quite right for you to start with, and trying to "color" it. To me, it would be better to start right, and then let the cable get out of the way, than start wrong, and try to fix it on the way through. That's just my thought. If the DAC-1 seems to lean for you (it was for me) I'd look for something a little less analytical. You can get that for the same or less money. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 43 Registered: Mar-08 | "it would be better to start right, and then let the cable get out of the way" Great answer. "Audio Zone makes a brilliant DAC, filterless, that is neither edgy nor overly warm. Lots of detail, but more analogue sounding than many. I think its in the $1200 range. For half that is the CI Audio DAC, also very good, and in another league from the player you have. As Art states, if you really want all that the Rowland can give you, you'll need to give all of this a miss and go up into another league." So I'm trying to understand what you are saying by go up another league... - Art suggested Esoteric and Ayre. Neither of these have a DAC input which I'd like to have (and the Ayre seems to have an unusual 4V output level in some modes). Any other players that you'd suggest that have a DAC input that would be a 'step up'? - Are you saying that I should give up on DACs if I want a step up, or that I should be looking at DACs that are a step up from Audio Zone's DAC, or that you think the Audio Zone would be good with the Rowland? I haven't done any looking at DAC vendors yet so I'm pretty clueless here and probably in the wrong forum (more reading I guess). |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 262 Registered: Jul-07 | Let me restate that. I'm getting tremendous sound from my CIAudio DAC. Maybe the Rowland would make it the weak link in the chain, but you'd be hearing pretty brilliant sound. The Audiozone DAC should be a step up from that, and if you look around (particularly at 6 moons) you'll see it is the reference DAC for the reviews of some very expensive equipment. So, it is certainly possible that it would be as much as you'd want or need. Not a lightweight product at all. Going into "another league" is pricey, and the benefits are subtle. Improvements over this level of product do not come cheap. So, it all depends on your objectives. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 44 Registered: Mar-08 | Thanks Chris, that helps. I'll look at those two DACs for flexibility relative to what I think I might be configuring. I'm probably a bit fuzzy on objectives since I don't have a reasonable reference to start with. I think it might be best getting level set with some "reasonably" priced input devices ($1200 DAC sounds fine) and get my system up and running so I can hear what I've got in the room it's going to live in. I've still got ICs and PCs to figure out, my listening room has a re-arrangement in the longer term plan that needs to get resolved, and room treatments, if any, have not even been considered. Hopefully the DAC will clean up the low end player I have now enough to hear much of the potential of the rest of the system. I might want to replace it at some point with something a bit more format flexible like an OPPO. Thanks to everyone so far for all your suggestions. I'll keep you posted on where this goes. |
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Bronze Member Username: Rick_rTucson, AZ USA Post Number: 48 Registered: Mar-08 | So I managed to get up to Phoenix recently and I went to "L&M Home Entertainment (www.lmche.com). What an audio candy store - simply an amazing place and a must stop if you're in the area. Check out their Web site. I was trying to demo some CD players and DACs and got to hear McIntosh's MCD1000 transport through their MDA1000 DAC and also an Esoteric X-01 Limited - both outside my price range (I had asked about hearing their Esoteric DV60 but we didn't get there). Both were played through a McIntosh tube pre-amp to a 300Watt McIntosh Tube Amp to Sonus Faber Amanti's. For what's is worth, I think I liked the McIntosh player/DAC slightly better in this listening. I had brought along some CDs that I thought sounded pretty terrible on my player at home and wanted to see how much better they sounded. The sound was pretty much approaching what I remember of my LPs through head phones from long ago. I sorta decided to go down the DAC path, though I haven't ordered one yet. But I decided to also buy an Oppo DV-983H which has arrived. The Oppo's very much better than my low end player - in fact it is VERY VERY good so far. I saw something on one of the other forums on the Oppo's "audio only mode" that I need to check into but so far, this player is impressive (and I'm sorta in the market for an upconverting DVD player even if I don't keep it for audio). BTW - I have some Dali Euphonia MS-5 now and the combination of the Oppo / Rowland / Dali's is starting to put the zip back in my doo-da. I'm starting to wonder how much better the DAC is going to make this player sound? One thing that I have as an option is that CI gives you a 30 day return policy with no questions asked so I suppose I could try it and see if I can hear the difference. The player doesn't have enough burn in yet, my room set up is still sub-optimum, there are some noise floor challenges in the room, and my interconnects/cables are still pretty marginal as well. I might be better off getting these a bit more settled (at least the player burn in) before I try to step up with the DAC. Chris, what's your impression of your Oppo alone vs the Oppo through the CI DAC? Which Oppo model do you have? Do you have the CI's VDA-2/VAC-1 models? |