Speaker Cable Shock!!!
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Bronze Member Username: MixsterLake Tahoe, NV Post Number: 15 Registered: May-04 | I was looking at some cables online yesterday and was blown away by the price of those things. Are $300+ speaker cables really necessary? Are there some good and less expensive cables you guys can recommend? |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 373 Registered: Dec-03 | you will get all kinds of different oppinions on home audio cabling,also will find many threads that have allready discussed this very touchy subject. as it can get pretty heated. my suggestion is buy descent cables like monster or i have found acoustic research from best buy is very nice for the price. but don't buy into the hype of $300 cables. your money could be much better spent elseware. to me once you have descent cables their is no sonic difference compaiered to higher end/more expensive ones. it's just hype in my oppinion. |
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Bronze Member Username: OknessadPost Number: 50 Registered: May-04 | I fully agree with Kegger. There have been many tests (particularly I'm thinking of Audioholics.com tests) where 12 gauge zipcord has been run against an all silver cable and the like with very little difference and in most cases the more complicated expensive designs introduced interference. There is something to be said if you want to pay a hundred bucks or more on cables if you want them to be pretty but you generally can't go wrong as long as it is a decent quality cable. Personally, I have used bluejeanscable.com a couple of times because they use Belden wire which is one of the largest wire producers in the world (so i figure if they can run cables for miles without interference, i'm sure they can handle the couple meters i require) and they also use good terminations. I'm sure I couldn't tell the difference between a higher end cable and the cheaper stuff but some people swear there is a difference. I say use that money to buy a more powerful amp, a dvd-audio player or something that you know will make a difference (and can be shown to do so on paper...) Either way, Enjoy the music. |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 109 Registered: Apr-04 | The debate about cables inevitably centers around opinions, price reactions, personal theory, disbelief, scientific angles and other rationale. Ultimately, the only thing that matters, if the cable/interconnects are used in YOUR private system is that YOU hear a difference, YOU find the cables worthwhile, YOU like your purchase and YOU want the cables in your system and YOUR equipment benefits from upgraded cables. Personally, I take great pride in taking my cables and interconnects with me on serious speaker auditions and I demonstrate the audible difference to anyone that wants to have a listen. Salespeople are very co-operative if you are a serious listener. I like Straight Wire brand cables & interconnects. One last note about cables, don't anticipate any benefit from attaching expensive cables to RadioShack junk. Only better equipment has the potential to reveal it's sonic worth through better cables and interconnects. |
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Bronze Member Username: OknessadPost Number: 52 Registered: May-04 | Chicobiker: I tend to agree with you. If you want to have pretty cables and sound good to you, then feel free to spend all the money you want as it creates profit for our economy etc etc. Doesn't bother me one bit if anyone wants to pay big bucks for cables on their own but it DOES bother me when people recommend expensive cables to someone asking what cable to buy. I am no engineer but I have read enough to feel that paying for anything more than a well shielded cable with good terminations is bunk. For those wondering where I get my reading materials, here is a couple of links http://home.austin.rr.com/tnulla/dunlavy6.htm (this is a favorite) http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/cables.htm (audioholics has a comprehensive cable section to help those in question find some quality information. Please note that audioholics has an advertising deal with cobalt cables which are not cheap, but they are not "high end" either. They developed this relationship with them only after testing some of their cables (with scientific equipment mind you...) and finding them to be among the best. Anyway, have a read, its quality information in my opinion.) Chico, I don't mean to say you are wrong for buying expensive cables and hearing a difference. It is easy to hear a difference in a cable when you want to. The placebo effect is huge and is very human. If you give a sick person a sugar pill and tell them to get better, they have a much better chance of getting better than someone with no treatment. blah blah blah... k, I can be done but please, before we start some sort of flame war about cables (which i dont think would happen because we have very respectful and thoughtful posters here which is more than can be said about most boards) take the time to read and search for information that has already been posted. I hope my links help some. Chico, feel free to post some articles showing the benefits of higher end cable. I didn't have any at the top of my head. Enjoy the music people! (with whatever cable you want!) |
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Moderator Username: AdminPost Number: 83 Registered: Dec-03 | A comprehensive list of cable articles can be found here: https://www.ecoustics.com/Home/Accessories/Cables/Cable_Articles/ Also, this long thread is very interesting. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/accessories/6528.html |
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Bronze Member Username: MixsterLake Tahoe, NV Post Number: 16 Registered: May-04 | Thanks for all of the input guys. This is an awesome forum. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Speaker cables, like interconnects or power cables, interact with your components and many times what you are hearing is the result of a sympathetic combination of resistance, inductance and capacitance among your equipment choices. There are some general, provable improvements to be had by using certain materials and techniques (Teflon has less EMF than polystyrene or polypropolene as a dielectric; parallel runs have less inductance but more capacitance than a twisted pair, gold is not as good a conductor as pure copper but copper oxidizes faster). To know which cable is best for a system is to know God! It is impossible with the information you are provided. You should try a few cables to see if they make an audible and desirable change/improvement to your system. Not everyone listens for the same qualities in a system (just ask a few people to describe transparency in a system and see how many answers you get) and what may float one person's boat may sink yours. It is true that lower quality components should be upgraded before a major investment in cables and accessories is attempted but many mid priced systems can be greatly improved by mere attention to details. How much you spend on cables is how much is relative to your budget. One of the best suggestion I have seen recently on cables and accessories is for every $ you spend on those items, send an equivalent amount to a charity of your choice for those who don't even have a radio. It is GUARANTEED to make your music sound better even when your system is not turned on. Try it you'll like it! |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 339 Registered: Feb-04 | Nice one Jan! If that doesn't make the music sound better, it should it feel better. "To know which cable is best for a system is to know God! It is impossible with the information you are provided." That is about the best response to "What is the best cable" question I have ever read. |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 110 Registered: Apr-04 | As most arguments regarding cables do; all the posted responses in one form or another, will fall into the categories I mentioned earlier above in my first post. The cable debate is nothing new to me and I prefer Straight Wire brand. I find Monster Cable to be HORRID. We have references to URL links, some circular arguments, some opinions, some scientific angles (where people invariiably throw around the terms inductance and resistance) and some diplomats and psychoacoustics analysts. In a similar vein, where I had to chuckle, my neighbor has told me his older Fisher CD player is just as good as my NAD541i; since -- quoting him exactly -- "It's all just zeroes and ones" Well there you have it! Needless to say, he didn't appreciate my audio cable demonstration with my Paradigm Focus. I put his "spool" WIRE (from his Bose) on L channel and my Straight Wire sextett on the R channel; we L-R the balance controls and the sonic differences were night and day. So I didn't even considering showing him my VIDEO cables! Posters take note, there is also a specific CABLES link, at the very bottom of the HomeAudio Board Thread folders for all to read, post remarks, opinions, argue, debate -- all in the best possible taste of course! |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 380 Registered: Dec-03 | i like oknessad's response their are some very pretty colored straight wire cables to go on that horendesly expensive and far superior equipment. i see! so if you have really expensive equipment get the really expensive cables. otherwise if you have midfi than buy midfi cables! got it! |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 112 Registered: Apr-04 | I think OknessaD may be somewhat unspecific on the use of the term pretty. I don't get cables for aesthic value, infact both my Sextet and Symphony cables are a rather ordinary dark blue, I get cable SOLELY for sonic reasons. There may be some uncertainty with the translation and thought vs meaning - sometimes internet text eliminates other clues humans normally take note of. |
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New member Username: GoldenarrowPost Number: 2 Registered: Jun-04 | Hi all, I have also been shocked by speaker cable as well as interconnect cable costs. I recently have tried using 36 foot of CAT5 network cable as an interconnect to my sub-woofer amp (it was suggested only for use with bass frequencies). Sounds just fine to me even though I had to solder the Radio Shack RCA plugs myself. I am sure it can be improved upon but at this point, room reflections and speaker placements affect the sound more. If I had the *perfect* sound room, then I could probably start hearing differences between wires and designs. Until that time, I will have to stick with the least cost that does not color the signal too much. It depends upon how much improvement in the sound you can actually hear vs. the cost spent. Is this reasonable? |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 140 Registered: Apr-04 | The cost, the perceived worth, the personal budget, the equipment's potential, the motivation and other factors determine where you put yourself in the "cable camp". If you are happy, then that's what counts the most. |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 443 Registered: Dec-03 | This past Saturday I tore apart my audio system because I bought a new rack. I figured this was the time to "upgrade" my speaker cable as I had been using Monster Standard [the grey 16 ga] for my three fronts and some 16 ga Radio Shack for my surrounds and my 50 foot run into the kitchen. Sound King wire from Parts Express has gotten several rave reviews on this site over the last several months so I thought I would give their 14 ga. a try with crimp pins. [What a pain in the butt!]. After 6 hours of work my system was back together and I find so far that overall I prefer my old cheap 16 ga Monster and Radio Shack to the new "upgraded" cable. It was so much work to pull the new wire and put the pins on I probably won't change back but I would not recommend the Sound King wire, especially if your system is already on the bright side. Mine is not but is more that way than before which I do not care for. Live and learn. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 16 Registered: May-04 | this says it all read and weep expensive cable dealers! http://www.audioholics.com/FAQs/Audioquest.html |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 143 Registered: Apr-04 | Therealelitefan - I would suspect ANYONE would find no sonic improvement differences in any 14ga or 16ga WIRE of the length of runs you describe. When I use the term CABLE, I a referring to the likes of Straight Wire Maestro, Symphony and Sextet C-A-B-L-E, not spool wire. Joe - cable haters will always find an article to support their disposition. Hyundai owners will always state their cars have an engine and tires, just like a Corvette. So Corvette dealers read it and weep! http:/www.hyundai-owners/comments.html.org |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 449 Registered: Dec-03 | Chicobiker, Let me assure you only a deaf person could fail to hear the huge difference in the two wires I described. The Sound King is very detailed and has great separation but is very bright. This is such a disappointment as it is lots of work to rewire my system but I am going to go back to Monster Standard that I had on my fronts before for my whole system. I should have done this in the first place but Sound King has gotten such good notices in this site. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 18 Registered: May-04 | hey chico spend all the money you want and have very pretty cables I will spend the extra cash where it really counts components. oh and the car analogy. very silly. apples and oranges but with cables, you are comparing apples to apples. i love the guys that pretend they can hear differences in different cables. makes me chuckle. i would love to put you in a sound room and see if your for real. I'll bet not a chance in hell. you guys wasted your money so now you have to justify the horrible amount of money you spent. |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 452 Registered: Dec-03 | Joe, For your information I did not spend a "horrible" amount of money on the Sound King wire and I bet even a smart guy like you could hear the difference in the two wires I mentioned. I do agree that spending hundreds of dollars on exotic cables is totally stupid and I would rather spend my money on components, thus my switch back to Monster Standard which is 27.99 a hundred foot. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | I love the guys that spend big dollars on the equipment and then want to spend the least amount possible on cables. It makes me chuckle! And admittedly you are spending big dollars guys. It's just that it's all relative. Whether you spend $300 or $3,000 for an amplifier you have made the decision to spend more than many people spend on a refrigerator or in some cases a car. I don't care if you shopped for the rock bottom, I bet this is gonna put them out of business deal, you spent a large junk o' change on your hifi. I can't tell you how many homes I go into that hardly have a table radio or computer speakers for the only music source in the home. And these are people with money. Hifi is just not on their radar screen. You have chosen to make it important to yourself. You have purchased a luxury item. You have chosen to spend money that could have gone elsewhere. When I sold audio I was very aware that lots of people that wanted a decent system were spending less for the whole sheebang, including the veneer over particle board cabinet (you know the kind that only has one power cord for the whole system), than I was asking for what I considered an entry level phono cartridge. It became very difficult to sell someone a $5,000 cartridge and then drive home past the $150 a month apartment houses and see the mother with three babies that looked as if she was wondering how she would get the next meal. So to carry on like you're smarter than the rest of the world because you saved money on the cables is rather like buying a Ferrari and getting your tires at Walmart and your gas at 7-11. GIVE ME A BREAK. If you want to save money do it somewhere else, if you want to spend the money, and you have it and more to spend, that's just fine. Don't make "I am smarter than you" judgements. Just please remember there are so many people in this world that find entertainment in a neighbor or family member playing a $15 guitar or just hearing a chior sing. Get over yourselves. There, my socialist rant for the day. |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 454 Registered: Dec-03 | The point is buy whatever sounds best to you. That's what I am doing. My mistake was paying attention to recommendations here and not buying what I already knew I liked. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 19 Registered: May-04 | Always the same old argument. so then because I Drive a corvette i should find the most expensive wax or soap to clean my car? or perhaps because my dog cost 1000 dollars I should buy a 100 dollar leash. makes sense. thanks for clearing all this up. |
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Bronze Member Username: OknessadPost Number: 65 Registered: May-04 | Awesome Joe! Thanks for that perspective. It is so true that even if you spend tons on an av system, it makes no sense to go above and beyond what measurments can determine is all you need for a cable. Like you said, just because you own a really nice car doesn't mean you need to get wax that has been cryogenically frozen because it helps the wax molecules line up better for a nicer shine (by the way, it costs 300% more than regular wax...) Nothing new I guess but I wanted to say job well done to joe Jace |
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Bronze Member Username: ShantaoPost Number: 11 Registered: Apr-04 | Hi Kegger, you wrote: "to me once you have descent cables their is no sonic difference compaiered to higher end/more expensive ones. " Perhaps not just to you there is no difference; there have not been any credible scientific studies that could demonstrate a statistical difference in double blind tests of wire. But a humorous aside.... One day I decided to hook up the rear center channel on my receiver that I had bought the day before. I was home from work with a sick son and nothing to do. Only problem was I had no wire. Back in the late 70's and 80's I played in a working band. Money being tight, we used to make cords from the amplifier to the very large speakers from extension cords. Real heavy ones. The kind you use to run outdoor machinery. 12 guage or lower if possible. These cords were high quality copper, lots of strands, flexible and could handle great loads of power. You just cut the ends off the 100 foot cords and solder on the 1/4 phono jacks. Anyway, back to my center channel story.... I go out to my garage, get a cord ( an nice bright blue one) and cut the ends off, strip the wire and run the cord to the back speaker. Wow, sounds great. I guess when you got a good thing you stick with it, hahaha. Later when my friend came to visit, he thought the bright blue heavy cord was some ultra expensive wire and asked where he could buy some. I suggested Menard's or Home Depot. The only problem with this stuff is that it is so thick it is difficult to hide it. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 499 Registered: Dec-03 | Shan Tao...........good one. i had done something simular when i use to d.j. i had gotten some large stacks that had 4 12" drivers in each and used extension cord in the same manner. worked fine and very durable for the travel all that stuff has to go through. |
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Bronze Member Username: KnightshadeTaunton, Somerset England Post Number: 13 Registered: May-04 | Depends on your system as to how much you spend. If you are planning to spend thousands on a system then to get the best out of it you should look at higher quality cables (Higher Quality - Doesn't always mean high price!) Even on cheaper systems a bad choice in cable can ruin an otherwise good system. Everyone seems to talk about monster cables. Can't you get any decent cable in the states? Cat 5e cable makes some nice speaker cable and is dirt cheap (Just hurts your fingers!) but it won't compare to the likes of Atlas or kimber. If your budget is tight spend the money on the equipment and get cheap cables and interconnects you can always upgrade later. For those of you who say you can't hear the difference between different cables I have to wonder what your listening to. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Whatever your Corvette or your dog cost you can buy what just gets the job done. You can drive your car through the automatic thingy at the gas station and use your wife's pantyhose for a leash. If you think just getting by is adequate, go for it. Oh, and by the way, a hammer will open a bottle of beer. |
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Mr. V Unregistered guest | Good gear REQUIRES (emphasis added) good cabling. Lo-fi stuff, like most Japanese stuff, is so sonically compromised that you can't hear the difference cabling can make. I have high end stuff, have demoed many different cables, and the difference is clearly audible. Which is not to say there isn't some good reasonably priced wire out there...you just gotta look, and listen. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 20 Registered: May-04 | thats it I'm starting a cable company hey everyone my cables are the best they are electrostatically wrapped then powder coated for superior sonic isolation. then jesus himself blesses them. they are a cheap $3000 a foot. well worth it. will make those martin logans or those polk audios sound -- uumm -- 42.715 times better than they do now. e-mail me for details -snicker- |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 22 Registered: May-04 | oh solid platinum connections are extra. these are cursed by lucifer to reverse the polarity of the above mentioned cables $400 a pair just wait till you hear the difference whip out that scope if you dont believe me! |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 23 Registered: May-04 | hope yall have a sense of humor ! |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 458 Registered: Dec-03 | All I can say is thanks Joe! This idea of having to spend hundreds and thousands on cable and interconnects is just nuts. If you want a good laugh [or cry as some believe this crap] check out the interview in the new Home Theatre with and excuse me I can't remember his name, but he's the head of a cable company and he makes the claim that you need to spend on cables the cost of your most expensive component. So if you have a $5000 amp you should spend the same on cables. These people must think we are all idiots and made of money. |
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Joe C. Unregistered guest | I don't know why people say they can't hear the difference between cables. If you have a bright sounding system lower gauge wire will make it sound even brighter (clearer highs and midrange) and higher gauge will sound warmer (less highs and midrange).As your gear gets better most CD'S will start to sound worse. Because the recording people set there levels for cheap boomboxs and car radios.So the more you try to improve the sound in some cases the worse it sounds(depends on the CD'S recorded quality).And if your speaker wire is not terminated check the ends for corosion, even a little (any discoloration at all) will have a big impact on sound quality. |
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Mr. V Unregistered guest | " These people must think we are all idiots and made of money." There are many snake oil salesman in the high end, BUT I have had great sound demoing a hideously expensive cable (Transparent Audio's best, as I recall). For me, the cost benefit analysis did not compute, but there are lots of folks out there with basically unlimited funds. Does anyone really need a Ferrari, a Bentley, or a Maserati? Of course not; a ten year old Corolla will provide decent transportation. Lots of drivers, just like lots of electronics consumers, get a kick from the performance and the cache of high end goods. *golf clap* ...and the world turns... |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 25 Registered: May-04 | I'm not saying rip the cord off your grandmothers 85 year old lamp and hook it up to your stereo but c-mon. take some serious electrical classes or something. elitefan, i hear what you say but i dont get it. Martin logan speakers are bright, why would you want another company(speaker wire company)to change the speakers sound? a company like martin logan who has spent millions in research. if you need speaker wire to change the performance of your speakers then you didnt buy the right speakers. any reputable audio dealer even lets you audition speakers in your own home. you know guy's, someday everything will be wireless then what will you do? talk about how different wireless hubs make your equipment sound? i'm sure then you will be able to buy 5000 dollar wireless hubs from the same people that are soaking you for the cables. have a swell day! |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 459 Registered: Dec-03 | Joe, All I was saying was that I liked the way my MA's sounded with Monster Standard and I was not attempting th change that at all by "upgrading" to the Sound King wire. I just wanted to use the same wire on all seven speakers and use pin ends and the Sound King was highly spoken of here so I tried it and it just didn't work for me. I was not expecting nor did I want such a dramatic change. Now that I have Monster Standard on all seven speakers I am very happy with my system. I don't think I could have found a receiver/speaker combo in my area I like better than my Elite 45 and my MA Silvers. Believe me, I spent over a year listening and researching all alternatives in my area to the point of obsession. |
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Dave0123 Unregistered guest | No offence or inslult intended, but not everyboby has the ear to hear the difference in cables, speakers, or even recevers. Some people have perfect pitch most of us don't. I work with people who can't hear the horn on the forklifts as they pass it doesn't mean the driven did not honk. I think every one here loves movies and/or music, but those of us who have listened too loud too long will have trouble hearing the differences in cables. The Artic speaker cable I use makes an easily audible difference in my system.(to my ear) It's not the cheepest nor is it the most expensive cable on the market. Sorry I'm babling. The point is each one of us needs to do some listening for ourselves and then decide weather our individual ears can hear the difference that nicer cables can make, and how much it is worth us. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 26 Registered: May-04 | dude, You only think you hear a difference! most of these cables have only subtle differences on a scope and your telling me you can hear them. ok. superman. but you know what make me laugh about this whole silly conversation is the fact that everyone says that different speaker cable make a difference but no one says anything about an audible improvement. plac ing a chair in front of your speaker will make a difference. so what. if i buy a speaker it's because i like the way the speaker sounds. I dont want that sound to change because of cables! |
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New member Username: LoufinkMargate, FL USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Jul-04 | Ok guys, try thinking of it this way. "Cables are like spices", they can change the sonic atributes of a system with changes in capacitance, inductance, and resistance values inherent in the cable design. Usually with higher quality equipment that is. Not with your $400 Circuit city reciever, probably not. Usually the better the gear the greater the improvment or difference, keyword difference. There is also a "point of diminishing returns" very early on in most cases with all cables. Within a particular system a less expensive cable can work as well as the higher price ones. Do not forget the "break in" of cables. I can here the laughs now..... but there are some cases where a cable takes 100 hrs or so to sound "right". Not all brands need to be "broken in". Rely on your dealer for this. The trick is to find a dealer who carries various cable brands and knows there sonic differences and trust him to guide you. Take home various cable brands and prices and try them. Close your eyes and listen. Better? Buy them. No? Do not. Nuff said. |
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Michigander Unregistered guest | You say you buy speakers because you like the way they sound (with what ever speaker wire was used at the time). So if you heard the same speakers with a diffrent cable you mite not like them(so cabels do make a difference). Just like some receiver sound bright and some warm so the same can be said about cables. It's the sum of all the parts that give you the sound (YOU) like not just one. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 623 Registered: Dec-03 | what if you liked those speakers no matter where you heard them. maybe even 10 different places. |
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jagsnc Unregistered guest | Joe first of all there will aways be a wire somewhere inside a speaker unless it magically connects to the amp inside to push the speaker. It goes both ways to yes some people say that you think you hear good sound because you have high dollar cables but when you listen to cheap cables then you convince yourself that they sound the same. its that simple. i am not saying put $300 dollar cables on your awia shelf system but it is relative. Don't sit there and convince yourself that there is no difference. cause if you want to have a thread war its not hard for every website you find saying don't buy the high end speaker wire i will find one that says you really should. everyone hears things differently and thats that for you to sit here and tell me that i don't hear a difference is like me telling you that you don't know what a steak tastes like your not me and i am not you. if you like your cables keep them but the question i ask is when was the last time you hooked $300 cables to your system to actually see if it made a difference? |
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New member Username: LoufinkMargate, FL USA Post Number: 2 Registered: Jul-04 | Geez, this can go on forever. Most internal speaker wire is pretty good, on better speakers of course. So the arguement goes on but the bottom line comes to personal taste and bucks. Also there is the "fun" of trying new stuff. We must remember this is a hobby. I have customers who are obsessed with obtaining the "sonic nexus", impossible. I have also sold many a pair of very expensive cables to someone who "just has to have better", so he is led to believe by a reviewer. And again the beat goes on. Another whole topic. Me, I use Soundstring throughout my system. Can I get better? Probably, but I may not live long enough to try all of the various brands. I feel a cable should not add or remove anything from the origional. No tone controls for me. Again, an opinion. I must admit we all do try to get "better" sound from our systems, that is the "fun" in the hobby. Yes? Happy listening..... |
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michigander Unregistered guest | There's no way of knowing if a cable added or removed anything because there no one cable that's been certifed as perfect for reference. I'm not saying the only difference is with expensive cables, there is a difference in cheap cables to. I've like the sound of less expensive cables better so far. |
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New member Username: LoufinkMargate, FL USA Post Number: 3 Registered: Jul-04 | "Reference" cables do not exist, yes, but there seems to be an average established as to how a cable will react in a circuit. And that is in fact what it is, a circuit. Due to a cables "values" for capacitance, etc. you can predict how a cable will sound, sort of. This is not an exact science by far, but the rules seem to apply. In 25 years I have found there seems to be a "sonic signiture" to most designs. Example: Cardas cables have always been "warm and neutral" by design. They are a perfect match for some brands of equipment and speakers. In the end you are buying the designers ears, his interpretation of "the right sound". The job of a good retail dealer is to advise his customers as to his findings in evalutions and try to remove some of the experimentation from the customer. |
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Dave0123 Unregistered guest | When I worked at Circuit City on slow days we would hook up two Onkyo 979s, and two sets of Polk rt1000s level of the bass and treble put some of our cheep cable on one and some nicer Monster Cable on the other, and the system wired with Monster was allways warmer and more detailed. I know not everbody has had a chance to listen to two identicle systems useing two types of cable, but trust me it does make a difference. I started to build my new system recently and had to stop. I switched to Arctic from Monster and it was like some one had removed a thin lid from my music. I'm running Paradigm monitor 11s on a five year old prologic Pioneer that I picked up from Rex for $250 new. I spent a hole $26.50 on cables.( I am only running in stereo right now.) Will finish building my system after Sept. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 632 Registered: Dec-03 | as i have said in the past! you will get all kinds of different oppinions on home audio cabling,also will find many threads that have allready discussed this very touchy subject. as it can get pretty heated. my suggestion is buy descent cables like monster or i have found acoustic research from best buy is very nice for the price. but don't buy into the hype of $300 cables. your money could be much better spent elseware. to me once you have descent cables their is no sonic difference compaiered to higher end/more expensive ones. it's just hype in my oppinion. |
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Mr. V Unregistered guest | Hmmmm, OK, then by your logic then, it is ridiculous to spend more than $30 on interconnects to link together hardware that costs over $15K to $20K? Like with Like. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 27 Registered: May-04 | jagsnc I have a good friend who works in a high end audio store and he also agrees that the speaker cables are a total hoax to make you boys spend huge amounts of money. the fact is the mark up is enormous and your 300 dollar cables are probably worth 30 bucks. and to your question "when have i hooked up 300 dollar cables" i have listened to 3000 dollar cables in the same store. for fun we hooked up several different cables to kefs, martin logans,apogees,psw's,. i feel ashamed my ears are sooo inferior to yours but oh well. spend your hard earned cash and make these cable companies richer. fine by me THREAD WAR? is that some computer geek term. never heard it before. kinda funny though. |
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Unregistered guest | Joe, your inexperience is showing. $500.00/foot speaker wire and $2k/half meter interconects exist. People DO buy them. Is there a difference between speaker wire and interconect cables? The answer is of course there are. Can YOU hear the difference with YOUR system? Thats obvious by your reply. I sold hi-end audio for a decade. Cable can make a bigger difference in the sound of your system than replacing ANY component. Notice I said "Can make" So, whats stopping all of you neigh-sayers from hearing the differences great cabling makes? YOUR SYSTEM! Most speaker systems have a tremendous amount of phase shift caused by the use of inferior drivers, steep slope filters in the crossover and designers trusting data from scopes. If your speakers are smearing the phase, they are smearing the time signature of the music. They are guilty of making many recordings un-enjoyable. Even many of the so called 'Audiophile" speakers are guilty of this. I'm not going to mention specific brands, but if your home speakers are multi-way, di-pole or bi-pole, chances are they have tons of phase irregularities. So, if your speakers are smearing the time/phase of the music, how on earth do you expect to hear ANY differences between cable/speaker wire? To hear the differences in cables, you need a good system. Simple as that. What happens when you say you can't hear any differences in cables/wires is your telling the world your system is sub-par. |
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Unregistered guest | Joe, your inexperience is showing. $500.00/foot speaker wire and $2k/half meter interconects exist. People DO buy them. Is there a difference between speaker wire and interconect cables? The answer is of course there is. Can YOU hear the difference with YOUR system? Thats obvious by your reply. I sold hi-end audio for a decade. Cable can make a bigger difference in the sound of your system than replacing ANY component. Notice I said "Can make" So, whats stopping all of you neigh-sayers from hearing the differences great cabling makes? YOUR SYSTEM! Most speaker systems have a tremendous amount of phase shift caused by the use of inferior drivers, steep slope filters in the crossover and designers trusting data from scopes. If your speakers are smearing the phase, they are smearing the time signature of the music. They are guilty of making many recordings un-enjoyable. Even many of the so called 'Audiophile" speakers are guilty of this. I'm not going to mention specific brands, but if your home speakers are multi-way, di-pole or bi-pole, chances are they have tons of phase irregularities. So, if your speakers are smearing the time/phase of the music, how on earth do you expect to hear ANY differences between cable/speaker wire? To hear the differences in cables, you need a good system. Simple as that. What happens when you say you can't hear any differences in cables/wires is your telling the world your system is sub-par. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 28 Registered: May-04 | what a foolish statement. obviously a salesman. these speaker cables must be intellegent now do they have a will of their own? oh is see they get to chose what system they make sound better or brighter or warmer or whatever. you take us for fools. it's funny how the electrical dynamics of a speaker cable choses to be better on one system over another. this is like an episode of gullibles travels. my last post on the subject. oh and by the way my system cost about 1/3 of what my house cost and i have a dedicated room. if you want to hear a difference your going to. I use monster cable for my loudspeakers and middle of the road audioquest for my video. this i fugured to be about 2 to 3 percent of the total cost of my system. if anyone tells me my system will sound better by spending more on cables than i already do, i will tell them to bite me. i get wow's now. maybe if i spend a thousand more on cables i will get a wowee. Who cares! LATE! |
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New member Username: LoufinkMargate, FL USA Post Number: 4 Registered: Jul-04 | If someone wants to spend 10K on cables and can afford it, so what. A dealer friend sold a 40K DAC to a guy in PA. If he thinks its worth it, its ok. It is all in a your priorties or something like that. A guy thing. Braging rights. Like 100K cars, they go from point A to B like a Hyundai. Its not for me but someone else..........ok priorties. All I will say is that any cable is an integral part of any audio system. Just like a crossover network in a speaker. Thats a fact. I do not believe in mega buck cables, but they can make or bring out the best in a system sometimes. Also, knowone mentioned video! Another whole mess for discussion. Hey, whatever happened to having fun with the hobby? Remember.......happy listening! |
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Bronze Member Username: KnightshadeTaunton, Somerset England Post Number: 14 Registered: May-04 | Touchy people aren't you! Looks to me most of you have valid points, some are totally ignorant and refuse to accept that there may be better things out there than they own and some (Like me) just like to listen to music. I have to agree with Maui, cabling can make a huge difference but it all comes down to your budget and/or equipment. If moneys no object take your time and buy the best. Sorry Joe but £500 interconnects do make a big difference. If you've spent 1/3 of the cost of your house on your setup then I would've thought you'd have a more open mind to what cables can do to improve your system. You mention cables have a huge mark up in stores. Yes they do (everyone has to make a living) but most stores will also offer huge discounts on said cables. Don't close your mind to things. If everyone had this attitude then I'm sure HI-END audio would soon dissapear. After all you can listen to a CD on an AIWA system. Doesn't sound that bad, really..... Also (I'm surprised no one's brought this up) having balanced equipment/cables will make a big difference to what you hear. Enjoy the music! |
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jagsnc Unregistered guest | Joe its not hard earned cash when you own the store and if you did have a friend that worked in a high end video store you would know what the markup really is its funny cause there is a huge markup on low end cables as well. One can hear the difference not necessarily you but other people and just because you can't doesn't mean you should say that no one can its funny that since you don't want to pay for them that you think its all a bunch of crap. And its weird cause we have a demo that shows the difference between cables and i have not had a customer tell me that they couldn't hear a distinct difference between the two. Weird i guess it looks like everyone is crazy. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 672 Registered: Dec-03 | forever how many people you have that say their is a difference you will have the same amount saying their is no differeence and that it is percieved. so the people who want expensive cable buy them! for the people who don't then don't. this going back and forth is just stupid. does either side really think they are going to convince the other? just either use them or don't! |
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New member Username: Rockroll_ninjaPost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-04 | HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Thank you gentlemen, for the hearty laugh.  |
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Michigander Unregistered guest | IT's not the people that say they hear a diffrence that's fooling them self,It's the people that can't. Then why even buy mid-hi if you can't hear the diffrence,just buy a shelf system and be happy. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 683 Registered: Dec-03 | and again that is how you percieve it. while others are the complete opposite. so you can bang this back and fourth. but it's going to be the same. so what is the point? |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 1035 Registered: Dec-03 | It can also be said... It's the people that say they hear a difference that's fooling themselves. or They are fools who say they can hear a difference. or They are fools who say they can't hear a difference. or Some people hear things when nothing is there and some hear voices inside their heads. There are others who hear a theme song when they walk down the streets. Are they fools??? Don't answer that! Pretty pointless isn't it? You can't sway people to a belief they don't value, calling them fools or otherwise is wasteful. Each belief will have its own rationalization. ad infinitum |
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Unregistered guest | Joe, what speakers are you using? |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 29 Registered: May-04 | I dont believe in trading my stuff in so i started out with a pair of klipsch chorus 2's, I also have a pair of paradigm reference studio 100's and recenty purchased a pair of Martin logan Prodigy's. The chorus 2's are the greatest speakers for rocking the house and shattering windows then on the b channel i have the paradigm's for really intense listening. in some ways i enjoy them more than the logans. the midrange and the upper end is great. but there is just something about the logans that cant be explained, like walking on air! these i had to buy a LITTLE more power for though. |
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Unregistered guest | Joe, you mean to tell me you can't hear the difference between the RCA's that came with your cd player on those Paradigms and oh say, even the under $50.00 analog 2 from Signal Cable? Wasn't 5 notes into the first cd when my jaw dropped. Thats a $49.00 cable Vs. the gold cables I was using, not the stock cables. Black and white, night and day difference. You move up to, say Analysis Plus, and it's that same jaw dropping effect, this time at many hundreds of dollars. Much bigger difference than a new amp, pre-amp or cd transport. Speaker wire on my system is less of a difference maker than interconnects, which makes perfect sense. Source is always more important. Whats your source? |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 31 Registered: May-04 | If you read my earlier post i never said use the cheapest wire you can find. You entered this debate very late. the whole squabble centers around the costs versus gains of the higher priced cables. I agreed with kegger about just using decent monster cable or audioquest. I bi wire my speakers at 4 dollars a foot. costs only 40 dollars for wire my connects for my amp costs between 20 to 50 bucks. I was willing to try more expensive cables so my friend let me sample several expensive brands. THE COST IS NOT JUSTIFIED! Then there is the digital scam. the digital versus the analog cable. I do have the digital cable for my cd player but only because my buddy sold it to me for the same price as the analog. AGAIN NOT JUSTIFIED. If there is a JAW DROPPING difference in your cables then you had bad cables to begin with. I think anyone here would say differences betwween cables are very very very very very very subtle. But Jaw Dropping? no. i'm sure there are a few though who will never let this die and fight till the end that the differences are so dramatic that you have to spend thousands on cables. If i have spent a thousand on cables it's because i have many many cables. If you feel i am a fool then so be it. the money i saved allowed me to buy incredible gear that i hope will make up for my IGNORANCE or weakness on the cable side. the martin logans sound (listening now) pretty good. Late |
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Unregistered guest | Joe, like any other industry/product line, your going to find certian products that just don't seem worth their money. Audio is no different. All one need do is look at speakers to realise that. Two of the most expensive lines out there are among the worst I have heard. There are also gems, worth many times their asking price. Those gems are almost always harder to find, but well worth the effort. If you feel cable/wire is not worth the money, so be it. It's fine to state your experiences. However, you have not heard every cable out there. Nor have I. So for you to state as fact that expensive wires are "snake oil" is wrong. Some are, for sure. Some are not. What I have heard are both the high priced junk you talk of, as well as the jaw dropping cables perhaps you haven't heard or given a fair evaluation of. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 32 Registered: May-04 | oh boy i'm tired so tired must sleep |
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Anonymous | Three great characteristic of Quality speaker wire: 1.Flexability 2.Very low impedance 3.Oxygen free. Oxygen free is needed to keep the individual strands of the wire from getting tarnished. This can occur if outside air & moisture infiltrate the jacket, or if they exist during the cable manfacturing process. This tarnishing between the strands can introduce noise into the transfer of power to your speakers. A solid conductor wire of the same gauge will never have this problem, since its a single strand, but its nice to have a supple, flexible wire for hookup to the speakers & amps. If you are going short distances, I agree, do it with a quality type of speaker wire. But if you have a lot of wiring to do, such as rears & surround, there is a much cheaper route. On the long runs inside the walls, from entrance box to exit box, I recommend using a heavy solid conductor cable such as 10 or 12 gauge romex wiring, used in household wiring. It is oxygen free, and very low impedance. Then inside the box, solder your quality speaker wire to complete the run out to your amp or speaker. I recommend a silver based solder. You will save hundreds, and not sacrifice a thing. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 33 Registered: May-04 | SEE! It is the cord from grandma's lamp |
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New member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 4 Registered: Jul-04 | Now that you are all worn out from your discussion, may I humbly add just a few points? I have a friend, "Verne" out in LA who is a recording engineer. Works with most of the "biggies" in the industry, and seems to know a bit about his craft. (I hope!) Here's what he did for me when I was casting about for new cables for my up-graded stereo system. He sent me a dozen 8-foot-long pairs of speaker cables - each marked with company and price/foot. He also sent me five digital coax interconnects - from CD to receiver. These, too, ranged in price from about $15 to more than $300. They were "on loan," not for me to keep! Then - my wife (who has such excellent hearing I could...well...) and I started in - using CDs well-known to us. I frankly can't remember all the brands - but I know that we quickly "killed" a few of them - such as 16-AWG cables from Monster, AR, and "house brand" from Radio Shack and Home Depot. That left us with a lot of 14 12, and 10-AWG wires. After a week of testing and changing - we (barely) determined that the larger the wire (smaller number) the fuller the sound. For speaker cables, we chose 10-AWG Belden cables by Blue Jeans cables - one of the brands he highly recommends. Now, the interconnects. Friends had been pushing the BetterCables "Silver Serpent." At $80. My wife and I nearly collided on this issue, as neither of us could hear much difference. But then - NOTE - we do not have Krell, or other super-hi-end equipment! That's a factor, for sure! Again - we settled on what turned out to be another Blue Jeans cable connector - Belden wire with Canare RCAs at each end. Cobalt Cable came in at about a tie. Others, whose names escape me, we just sent back with our thanks. This is a SUBJECTIVE test - and only means that, for us, Blue Jeans cables has very good product. My friend later said that the recording industry uses Belden wire - in various configurations - and that unless your gear is ultra-sensitive, it's more than adequate. So - more fuel for the fire? I hope not. I hope this is just a story - a story of two music-loving people on budget who tried very hard to get the best sound they could - especially on classical and opera. My two cents' worth - nothing more. It's very good to have finally found some forums where people actually think! I've been on some stinkers, and got very, very tired of their trite nature. Keep up the good work, folks! I read you happily! |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Oxygen free cables do not imply a bad insulation. A quick examination of how cable is pulled and insulation applied will dispel this idea. Oxygen free refers to the moleculare structure of the wire itself. Oxygen (a portion of the moisture that is inherent in the production of wire) is drawn out of the cable before it is insulated. This provides more uniform strucure to the cable. Solid core cable can most certainly be oxygen free but it isn't always oxygen free. Solid core cables can be some of the most inexpensive to manufacture and recieve the most inexpensive manufacturing techniques. Radio Shack 18 AWG (American Wire Gauge) hook up wire is not an oxygen free wire. Oxygen free is a precursor to single crystal structure of a cable where ther are few, if any breaks, on the molecular level, over the length of a cable. 12 AWG Romex, while offering reasonably low resitance, does not qualify as a highly flexible cable. My prefernce for pulling through walls is a "snaked" packege of cables where the multiple conductors are combined in one jacket. Multistrand cable is always easier to pull than an equivalent solid core cable. Ask any electrician which they would rather try to get through a wall. Low resistance/impedance still does not mean low capacitance or low inductance. Two qualities amplifiers do not care to see sitting on their output stages. |
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Bronze Member Username: GoldenarrowPost Number: 70 Registered: Jun-04 | Larry R., I am curious about your cable testing. I read the articles on the Blue Jeans Cables site and they seem reasonable for the majority of Audio/Video users out there and they seem like good, solid cables (and I find it interesting that your LA friend says Belden is the de facto industry standard there - nice to know what the professionals use, thanks for passing that along). For instance, I was comparing the Acoustic Research (AR) interconnect cables the last few weeks between their "Performance" line (sold at Best Buy) and their newer "Pro" line. When I compared the specs to the cables sold through Blue Jeans, the AR cables seem awfully close in structure to some of the ones through Blue Jeans. Seems like many of the manufacturers standardize on Belden and then add their own touches, fit and finish if you will, or special plugs, like Canare or Bullet or whatever. Did you get to test any AR interconnect cables? I just replaced all the old Radio Shack (gold series, single shielded, plastic dielectric) junk with mostly the Performance version. I do notice an incremental improvement in sound but did not do an A/B test. It seems like AR follows many of the same principles outlined in the Blue Jeans Cables articles, like double or triple shielding of two foil with mylar tape and 95% copper mesh and foam dielectric on the video cables. For instance, the video cable Blue Jeans sells, the 1694A is triple shielded with nitrogen-injected foam dielectric. Guess what the AR Pro video cables are - the same description but they won't say "Belden 1694A" like Blue Jeans does. So I was wondering if you tested any AR Video interconnects??? BTW, I almost put in a big order to Blue Jeans, but had such a great one-time deal on the AR cables from a local source that I decided for now to go with the AR cables. I would certainly try Blue Jeans in the future since they seem like good solid value for the money. Also, because of the Blue Jeans articles, I will probably use all video cables, even for the audio analog interconnects because of the tighter tolerances and better general construction. goldenarrow |
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New member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 10 Registered: Jul-04 | Ah-ha! You have uncovered one of the many mysteries of The Cable Game, my cyber-friend! Yes, the AR Pro line is basically the same cable as that sold by Blue Jeans. And you are again correct that many manufacturers take Belden cable in one form or another, stamp a new name or model on it, and sell it as their own - same cable, different cover. This is not necessarily bad or illegal or anything like that - just the way it is in "real life." Yes, I not only tested the AR Pro cables, but even as I type this I have an AR cable set running between CD analog out and the receiver - it was one of the sets my friend sent me, and told me to keep if I liked it. Apparently it was one of his "cast-off" sets. But it is audio, not video cable, as you asked. As it stands, I have Blue Jeans 10-AWG speaker wire and Blue Jeans digital coax cables - with Blue Jeans "6-pack" analog cables waiting in reserve for when I do get my SACD player sometime in the Fall. Nothing wrong with your use of video cables for audio interconnects - I know several people who do that, as well. But you might get some interesting facts by reading the wire information on the Blue Jeans web site - I did. As to the digital coax cable - I was urged to change from my Toslink digital optical cable to the coax by several audiophiles who said I could easily tell the difference. I doubted that, figuring like so many people that 1s and 0s would be the same, either way. Wrong. As usual! GRIN When my wife and I did another of our now-infamous "A-B tests" she said that the coax was much smoother and warmer. Had I not been so busy flipping cables about I might have come to the same conclusion earlier! And yes, I even did the "evil" switcheroo thang where I kept the SAME cable in place, but told her I was changing. Hmmm. . . sneaky, but necessary to try to ensure accuracy. She picked the coax every time, though, and so I guess our testing was about as accurate as we could make it, under the circumstances. BTW, I e-mailed Blue Jeans Cable with our results - and they posted back to the effect that so many people write with the same conclusion that they want to do some tests of their own. The chap said he had thought it a bit "nutzy" that people heard a difference, but that he might now have to change his mind in the face of so much anecdotal evidence. Now I know that as soon as this reply hits the forum, some people will come back challenging or questioning my choices and results. Yes, I fully expect that, given the subjectivity of the cable issue. For many, 300-dollar-a-foot cables are must-have equipment, and they claim to hear the difference. Fine, for them. I do not say they are wrong, just differing with my personal choice and ability to hear. As I've posted elsewhere, my equipment is not "the best," and as such, I may never hear subtle differences that I might hear on top-of-line gear. Use your ARs in good health - and take all that I say with a healthy bit of skepticism! GRIN |
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Unregistered guest | Larry, you act like cables are like GM cars or something, each division slapping a different name on the same chassis. Your right about Belden cables being one of the main players in the cable biz. What you failed to mention is that Belden doesn't make simply one cable. They make dozens of cables.....everyone different. So, while brand "X" is using perhaps Belden 89259 cable with great connectors, brand "Z" may be using a cheaper Belden cable with crap connectors. So now, in our automotive analogy, your saying the GM Cavalier is the same as the Cadillac STS. And again I stress, just because you don't hear differences in cables doesn't mean they aren't there. Could be your source is poor quality, your amp/pre-amp reverts absolute phase, or your speakers have phase issues (most do) I can see why your wife would hear the differences before you did. Womens hearing is much more accute to the critical mid-band range than men are. All you cable non believers should come to my house, where a simple change of interconnects can make one cringe or smile. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 852 Registered: Dec-03 | you must have some really sensitive electronics to make a cable have your system make you cringe! i'm glad mine isn't, descent cables make mine just fine! |
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Bronze Member Username: ShantaoPost Number: 29 Registered: Apr-04 | Larry, forgive my ignorance, but what you write regarding digital cables makes no sense conceptually to me. Digital data is binary; ones and zeroes. Either the machine gets it, as in the data is received, or it does not. If it does not there is a data error, if it does it works. This is not like analog where, theoretically, the dynamics of the wire can effect the sound because there is no "sound" to effect as it is a data stream. Perhaps someone can explain this to me ? Thanks much |
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Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 22 Registered: Jul-04 | Mauimusicman: Hmmm - think I'd better review my previous postings. Don't think I said that I hear no differences in cables - but I hear no differences between SOME cables, while (as I posted) I do hear differences between others. And as to Belden - yes, I probably should have gone ahead and expanded on my Belden comments. The company does, in fact, make Hundreds of different cables. And you are correct to gig me on my failure to bring up the varying quality and attributes of various Belden cables. Thank you for amplifying that. I do hope that I'm not on a soapbox here, and I contend that for many people, cables are "night and day" different. For others, such as my new friend Kegger, well, the differences might not be worth extra expenditure. As I said earlier, part of my "problem" is that I do not have upper-level equipment. I can't afford that. With such gear as Krell, Sunfire, McIntosh (all of which my rich doctor-friend has, BTW) I might better delineate between "cheap" cables and the ones I read advertized for hundreds of dollars a foot. As you might well imagine, an Onkyo 701 receiver and $400-a-pair Polk RTi6 speakers will not bring out nuances that equipment as listed above will show. I liken this discussion to your analogy re automobiles. You may have a Cadillac equipment bundle, while I "drive" Chevy or Pontiac gear. We both get "there," but in varying degrees of comfort and elegance. Conclusion: thank you for setting me straight on some points, and for your always-welcome pinpointing of my failures to adequately communicate my facts. But please, read my postings to their conclusion - I am not a "cable non-believer." Respectfully posted. . . LR |
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Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 23 Registered: Jul-04 | PS to the above re cables - my doctor-friend uses Cobalt cables for interconnects - and Blue Jeans cables 10-AWG speaker wire to his Martin Logan speakers. His through-wall wiring for surrounds, well, even he doesn't know what that is. . . |
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Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 24 Registered: Jul-04 | Shan Tao - sir, you are not ignorant, merely as confused about the coax/optical "differences" as many of us seem to be. When I posted re our A-B comparisons of coax and Toslink I was merely reporting on one test - the test (really plural) that my wife and I did with our equipment. When I e-mailed the Blue Jeans cable company with our results, the techs there said as much as you did - "huh?" But then, in replying to me, they opined that nearly all those who compared optical with coax reported the coax to be warmer and smoother. Does this make sense? Not to me, certainly! Heck, I'd just spent $70 or so on a new optical cable! Then put it in the closet, where I think my wife mistakenly put it in the trash? Well, that's another story... Anyway - I can't answer your puzzlement, but hope that somebody else more electronics-smart might do so. |
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Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 25 Registered: Jul-04 | Mauimusicman: If you please, sir - would you mind listing all of the equipment you use? From CD thru amps to speakers. I'd really like to know what it takes to be able to tell differences in cables as serious as those to which you refer in your previous posting to me. thanx - - LR |
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Bronze Member Username: GoldenarrowPost Number: 75 Registered: Jun-04 | Larry R., The reason I wanted to use video cable for audio interconnects came after I had read the Blue Jeans articles, they don't state it, just seems like a good idea to me because the video cables are made better. Video needs tighter tolerances and shielding to get the job done than audio cables. One of the articles did say that it was perfectly OK to use their video cables for audio purposes. This thread has been going on for quite awhile now. Cable choice seems like a typical problem where spending 10% of the budget gets one a 90% solution, but spending 90% of the budget would get you that extra 99th % of performance. Must be more, instead of GM cars, the difference between popular value cars like the Honda Accord or Ford Taurus compared to a Formula 1 racing car. Vastly different amounts of money spent to get different performance levels. Most of us live in the world of the Honda/Ford (but I DO enjoy an exciting racing car scene, like the car-chase-on-ice in "Die Another Day" with its attendant exploding missles and mortars). I don't see how I could even think about affording "formula 1 style" cables. This is because the same limitation seems to be had in all the other gear as well from speakers to anything electronic. Everything is limited by that 90%-10% rule. That last 10% is a killer to get to. This must have to do with physics and the way the universe was built. This is why I drive a Honda Civic instead of a Formula 1 racing car to go shopping - I have to eat. Perhaps I could be enticed into buying better cables if, somehow, the Formula 1 racing car could cost the same as the Honda or Ford. THEN I might be able to relate! It might be doable, it just takes some entrepreneurial types to try and commoditize the products. Then, like the DVD movie sold at $20 a pop (making Hollywood millions in the process), top-of-the-line cables could be sold at the same video store for a cheaper price than usual. I think Monster Cable has tried to do this but I don't consider them to be top-of-the-line (and the guy who started Monster Cable is certainly a multi-millionaire). Larry, do you have any experience with this kind of 90%-10% rule? Mauimusicman, do you have any entrepreneurial experience to try to help make these cables more affordable (like Monster Cable has tried to do but maybe more aggressively)? goldenarrow |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 36 Registered: May-04 | Again all anyone talks about is differences! what does that mean? If i add three tablespoons of redhot to my pasta sauce there is going to be a difference. noticable yea. but better? no! I think you guys are so happy to simply hear a "difference" that you truly dont know if it sounds "better" or not. i bet any good salesman could convince you to buy the cables they sell. some of you anyway. I'm still with kegg! stand strong and these foolish wanna be audiophiles will spend themselves into oblivion. while you and I will have the best gear that has GREAT sound without having to have a cable change it! LATE! |
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Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 31 Registered: Jul-04 | Goldenarrow: I think mauimusicman and I may be at opposite ends of the stereo spectrum, equipment-wise. And we differ on how much "difference" there may be in cables. And on, and on, and on. My wife and I have done our admittedly-limited testing, and have found that there ARE some differences in SOME cables. Sigh. But I frankly wish that everybody would do as much testing as they possibly can, then get the cables they can afford, and enjoy their music to the best of their (and their equipment's) ability. I try very hard to learn - constantly. And thus I often change my mind as I go along - based on either recorded fact, or my own experience in listening or viewing. Whew - getting long-winded here, and didn't mean to be. My advice: Read as much as you can, take all with grains of salt, and listen to as many cables as you can. You decide, my friend - YOU, not any of us on this rather valuable forum of ours. JOE: Now jest a gol-danged minute here, fellah! I add MORE than three tablesponns of RedHot chile to my pasta sauce - and it I S better! So there! (laughing out loud here, guyz) Can we transfer the above statement to cables? Not on yer life, we can't!! OK I'd really like to see all of us back off just a bit - because obviously we're not making any radical changes in "the other fella's" thinking, or buying, for that matter. Education - and free choice - and peace to all! LR |
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Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 32 Registered: Jul-04 | LOL, chaps - my wife came in while I was writing away - and reminded me that if y'all want to REALLY do a wiring job - follow the example of an old friend of ours in Chicago - we call him "nutzy Danny." Here's why. Years ago, he and some friends "made a deal" with the owners of a theater that was being torn down. They got permission to remove all of the old "voice of the theater" sound system - and then proceeded to gut their basement and re-install it all down there. They built a wall, with cutouts for the huge "horns" - and then set up 18-inch woofers (that's right- 18-inch) in boxes held in place by "L" brackets and lag screws - the thunder from those speakers simply vibrated everything out of place! Well - I can't remember what they used for amplifiers, but the connected the speakers with 6-gauge wire. If you know about that? Talk about HEAVY! The sound was way beyond awesome - it was terrifying! They once put on an old Mercury record of the 1812 overture - and down came the entire acoustical tile ceiling - kay-womp! Hurt, too, 'cause I was under it! Well - there's an extreme cable example - but a pretty good story. Now them-thar war gud cables!!! GRIN Don't know whatever happened to Danny. . . LR |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 857 Registered: Dec-03 | not that anyone else cares what i do! but i am no longer posting or looking at this thread. it's useless. you have people saying cables make huge differences. you have people saying they make no difference. then you have people saying they make subtle differences. this thread is going nowhere. their is enough written hear that anyone can form their own oppinion. if you believe cables make a huge difference than buy the realy expensive ones. if you believe they make no difference than get the cheap ones. if you believe they make a subtle difference but as long as you have descent quality cables they work just as good as anything else for "your" system. then buy the midgrade cables. are people really that hurt if someone doesn't believe the same philosophy as yourself, that you have to try and pound it down their thraots and say believe darn yu! GET THE CABLES YOU WANT, THAT MAKE YOU AND YOUR SYSTEM HAPPY WITHOUT WONDERING IF OTHER PEOPLE BELIEVE LIKE YOU DO! |
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Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 33 Registered: Jul-04 | Kegger: Can I say "me too?" Yep - Enough is enough. Hope to see you on other threads!! LR |
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krellfan Unregistered guest | What do you all think about an AC cord upgrade? |
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Bronze Member Username: ShantaoPost Number: 34 Registered: Apr-04 | An AC cord upgrade? For what? Is the cord damaged or cut? Otherwise I would leave it alone. |
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Bronze Member Username: KnightshadeTaunton, Somerset England Post Number: 18 Registered: May-04 | Obviously Shan Tao doesn't listen very well. If you have the money and the system do it. Here's something useful http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/shunyata/diamondback.html enjoy. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShantaoPost Number: 35 Registered: Apr-04 | Gee and I thought I listened fine, and I know my hearing is good... all the way to 24khz.... so I can even hear into the dog range.... Interesting weblink. They start by describing how women don't like black cables, but mysteriously the silver/purple they have will be okey dokey. Go figure, my wife would hate both, guess she doesn't fit into the "chicks dig it" catagory they describe, hahahahah. Perhaps I am as dense as a block of wood, but could someone explain the science and proof behind shielding power cables purportedly improving sound? I can certainly understand the need to shield interconnects, but power cables? In the past I have searched around on the web looking for such studies, but cannot find any credible scientific studies to show that souped up power cables show a demonstrable improvement in sound in any case other than subjective judgement. I would like to see some double blind tests of the "improvement" because the excited subjectivity they describe just doesn't cut it objectively. This afternoon over coffee I shared this with my good friend and neighbour who is an electrical engineer and installs audio systems for stadiums, conference halls, churchs and other large venues for a living. He laughed so hard he snorted coffee through his nose. He mentioned something about "a fool and his money are soon parted". But to be fair, maybe there is a difference in the equiptment he installs and home audio. My suggestion (bearing in mind that this comes from a psychologist and not an engineer) is that if you have the money to blow, and it makes you feel better about your self and your audio, go spend it. The economy needs a boost. Have fun |
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New member Username: CutterWinnipeg, Manitoba Post Number: 6 Registered: Jul-04 | Your friend has a good piont, Shan. I suspect that the reason people with expensive cables get upset at people with budget cables is that they worry that if the budget cable people are right, then they've been had. Conversely, the reason that the people with the cheap cables get mad at those with pricey ones is that everyone with a HiFi system wants to get the best sound possible out of it; so, the cheap cable people worry that in fact if they would have just spent a little more money, they might have maximized the potential of their components. It's natural for everyone to try to justify the decisions that they have already made (and can be either expensive or a pain in the A$$ to change). I'm putting together my very first system right now, and, having read this whole painful thread, I suspect I'll end up buying mid-priced, good quality cables recommended to me by the guys at the specialty store in which I purchased my system. |
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New member Username: CutterWinnipeg, Manitoba Post Number: 7 Registered: Jul-04 | Shan, correction, both YOU and your engineer friend make good points. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 37 Registered: May-04 | humbug |
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Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 71 Registered: Jul-04 | Joe: Happened to "tune in" on this contentious, continuing discussion - and may I say to you, Joe, that my old journalism instructor would have loved you! You managed to boil down about 3,000 words into one. Congratulations - you get an "A." Respectfully - Larry R. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 346 Registered: Dec-03 | OK-OK! I go away for a week, and the "kids" start in with the cables again. You need a time out. Let's remember what we learned: (A) cables and interconnects should not be used as tone controls. (B) there are audible differences in some wire/cable. (C)listen and decide for yourself which brand and how much YOU should spend. (D)IMHO mid-fi systems will not benefit from ultra expensive wire, nor will high-end, state of the art systems maximize from entry level wire. Now go to your rooms and listen to some music!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: KnightshadeTaunton, Somerset England Post Number: 19 Registered: May-04 | Shan and Chris, I'm not saying go out and buy a power cleaner/different cables but in Britain we have a recognised problem. We get a lot of interference from our electricity. Sounds weird I know but the noise on an electrical circuit is quite a problem. Maybe you have a better national grid in the states? I don't know. All I can say is some power supply/cable combinations work very well and do improve the sound. The cheaper ones tend to alter the sound. Basically the idea is this. If you have a totally flat power supply (no peaks and troughs) the equipment can concentrate on doing what it was designed for. Again you won't see a big difference on low/mid fi but on high end equipment it has a similar effect to upgrading your system to the next level. It goes back to what LINN said 30 years ago about the source being the most important component in any system (everything else only amplifies what it hears) Well this is the same, if the power supply is perfect then everything else can only sound it's best. If your whole system only costs 5K then this is probably not for you. Enjoy. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 38 Registered: May-04 | hey larry do your homework go back and read the old posts have been in on this one from the start! i should use better words to boil these arguments down. besides i'm right and your all wrong. this makes me very happy |
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Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 77 Registered: Jul-04 | Sorry, Joe - bud I'm jusph bak phrum duh dentisht wid uh new woot canahl - I'll posht mohn ladr. Wespechtfuwee - Warry R. |
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Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 78 Registered: Jul-04 | Joe: well, the anesthetic is wearing off, and I'm as feisty as an old coon-dog - so. . . I'm a bit taken aback by your statement: "do your homework." I HAVE read the thread, and here I thought I was giving you a fine compliment! guess you misunderstood my message re my old J. professor? Sorry - I meant it as a plus for you. "Humbug" is what SOME of all the rhetoric may be about - but I just can't put myself totally in your camp, sir. If I had heard NO difference on interconnect and speaker cable, I'd be quick to join you. However, I did hear some, though not the "amazing" difference some on this thread have heard. But I repeat - I do not have "hi-end" equipment - Just Onkyo and Polk RTi6 speakers - maybe a Sunfire or Krell would make a difference? I'll never know. I tried to get off this thread once - and now I'll do it again. The end - with respect, LR |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 39 Registered: May-04 | HAH! |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 40 Registered: May-04 | i love the final word! |
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Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 90 Registered: Jul-04 | Yes - about as narrow as the mind that posted it. |
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New member Username: BleustarPensacola, Florida Post Number: 6 Registered: Jul-04 | It all comes down to one simple rule. Red cables are good. Green cables are better and Blue cables are the best. I have found that Blue cables have more extended highs and are very neutral. Red cables are harsh and green cables tend to corode very quickly (probably from the moisture of being green). Oh...one last hint...I never pay more than $750.00 per foot for blue cables. PSS. Receivers with blue lights have better sound too. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | According to my dictionary the final word is - Zymurgy. I'm not that fond of that word. ? |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 359 Registered: Dec-03 | A have a really old edition-doesn't have "Jiggy". |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 41 Registered: May-04 | LLLAAAARRRRYYYY has super ears i just bought blue cables too! i love them someone should develop a better sounding purple caple and put stripes on it personally i like to piddle on my cables before using them less bright! |
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Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 94 Registered: Jul-04 | Urgent to Forum Administrator: Sir, I wish to inform you that you have on this thread an imposter, falsely signing on as "Joe. In his flaming, churlish, venal remarks, this imposter would try to make me the fool. I hope that you can uncover and "delete" this imposter, thus restoring the real Joe's good name. Meanwhile - to this imposter, I say, as an Amish friend of mine once said to a tormentor: "May thy mother bite thee when thou returnest to thy kennel tonight." |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Joe - Do you like to crap on your amplifier too, cause it sounds like that's what you own. |
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Unregistered guest | http://www.analysis-plus.com/Pages/report981.htm A technical white paper on cables. Neigh-sayers, read it. Again, I cannot stress enough to you that if your amplifier/reciever has high negative feedback (most Japanese amps do) or your source smears the ones and zero's off the cd (most DVD/CD players do as DVD's are clocked differently than cd's) or your speakers have phase issues (90+% do) How can you reasonably expect to even hear the music as it was intended, let alone differences in cables? Get better gear..professing you hear no differnce in cables to an audiophile is admitting your system bites. |
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Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 115 Registered: Jul-04 | Mauimusicman: Well, your article was very impressive, indeed! I did learn a lot from it, though I'm not truly in the "nay-sayer" camp, and my wife and I have heard subtle differences in some cables. But I'd like to rais a couple of issues here: first, you use that red-flag word "better" in urging us to get, well, "better" gear. What does that mean, sir? I have what to you is probably AWFUL gear - a JVC CD player, an Onkyo 701 receiver and Polk RTi6 speakers. The system sounds not-good with CD playback, but pretty-good with FM, ergo I guess there's a problem with my CD player. The wire I use is not original-box stuff, but Belden wire as packaged and sold by Blue Jeans Cables. Essentially, the speaker wire is 10-AWG stranded. The coax is double-shielded and foam-insulated Belden/Blue Jeans. My total wire cost for 20 feet of speaker wire and the digital coax was roughly $70. Better, I obviously need? That brings up the second point: cost. Were I to purchase 20 feet of the wire in your link, I'd be spending over $1,000! That's nearly as much as I paid for my entire equipment list! OK - let's return to my first point: better. What would be "better," sir? A Krell amplifier and a Marantz 8400 CD player, with Martin Logan speakers? Way, way out of my price range, for sure. Thus, some guidelines might be in order here: how much "better" would I have to go to hear any difference in sound? And would I have to buy the $1,000 wire to hear it? Did you spend that much on cables? And what equipment do you have hooked up to hear the marvelous sound of which you are so proud? Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not challenging your assertions, just wondering what I might do to improve the sound - without going deep into debt? Respectfully, Larry R. |
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TONY D. Unregistered guest | larry i'm not sure about maui's statement. I run a marantz 8400 dvd player with a theta casablbanca II prepro plus the dreadnaught amp to Aerial 10T speakers up front with the center channel and surrounds to boot. which i would consider very very good equipment. I have tried many a cable and wire with little to no difference in sound. after trying many cables and wires i am in belief that good well made cables is all you need. I had my 10t's first because i love the sound of them. then i upgraded to the theta stuff from a pioneer elite reciever. the reciever did a very good job with the Aerial's but these speakers are very power hungry and the theta amp powers them just right. all the moving of equipment led me to the trying of different cables and after all the trials i went back to average good cabling "A.R. PRO LINE". I find them very reasonable quality cabling. so to me balnket statements like, if you can't hear a difference your equipment must not be very good. is just way off base. it might make a difference on some systems "but i would bet very little" but cetainly not all, even if they are very very good. all i can say is be carefull what/who you listen too. judge for yourself what you believe is the right way to do it. It's fine to take peoples oppinion's but beware of the ones that say, do it this way because this is the right way to do it. there is allways more than one way to do something. |
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Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 118 Registered: Jul-04 | Tony D. Thanks for your posting. You, sir, have equipment that I can only dream about - and I find it interesting that, with your AR Pro wire, you have basically the same - yes, Belden - cable that I have. Blue Jeans cable and AR use essentially the same Belden cable for interconnects. I have tried very hard to hear differences in wire, and my wife and I spent many hours A-B testing both speaker and interconnect wires. Don't know if you accessed earlier posts where a recording engineer-friend of mine sent us a lot of speaker and interconnect cables - on loan - to test. Everything from thousand-dollar to el cheapo wires. Then, we tested and tested and tested, and finally wound up with Blue Jeans digital coax and 10-AWG speaker wire. Sent the rest back to him with thanks for a lot of frustration! As I have said over and over - my system is what you chaps would call "mid-fi," so I'm guessing that any further cable upgrades would be foolish expenditure on my part. Right now I'm wrestling with a CD player which I feel is inferior - so that will be my next upgrade as soon as new models come out. Thanks - appreciate your comments! Larry R. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 42 Registered: May-04 | mauimusicman is obviously a saleman! his post is absurd!! I too have tried different cables and i dont think my system bites. pioneer elite vsx 49t martin logans. give me a break. if he spends all his time trying to hear these "differences", then i guess he eventually will hear them. I have three different sets of speakers and enjoy listening to all of them for the sound the bring to differnet kinds of music. you are going to have differences between speakers but I would want cables not to change the great sound my speakers have. if they do then to me they are not doing their job! |
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Bronze Member Username: KnightshadeTaunton, Somerset England Post Number: 23 Registered: May-04 | Here we go again I guess.... My current equipment is this: LINN CD12 CHORD DAC 64 Exposure Classic XXIII Pre Amp 5 Exposure Classic MonoBlocks XXVIII TRI WIRED into PMC OB1 The whole lot is connected with ATLAS ELECTRA OCC Interconnects (1 Metre lengths = £450 each) The speaker cable is also ATLAS at £25 a linear metre I have about 3 metres of it. Now that I have established how good this system is I'll tell you about cables. It took me a long time to select interconnects and speaker cables, I listened to lots from very cheap to ridiculously expensive. The usual ones from monster sounded OK. So did everything else for that matter but it wasn't until I started attaching really high quaility cables that I started to hear what the equipment could really do. IE, reverb on guitar strings, mobile phones ringing in someones pocket in a recording studio... Just a few to mention. Monster cable cannot begin to get the level of detail from the DAC to amps If it had believe me I'd have bought it! Can we all agree that cables only Decrease the quality of the sound? Yes? (Or is there someone out there who'll argue the toss?) Cables shouldn't alter the sound they should transmit it as accuratly as possible from source to speaker. I have probably the best CD player in the world If a better one exists I haven't heard it yet. £20 a metre Monster cable cannot get the best out of it. It's simply not designed to be used with this level of equipment! Not trying to be rude but if your system isn't really good You WON'T here these subtleties. Anything probably Sub £10000 (That's GB Pounds not dollars!) This is why I have said before if you have lo fi. Buy lo fi cables, mid fi? buy mid fi cables or whatever you like the sound of. But don't spout rubbish that on a (real) hi end system you cannot hear the difference! Better still find a high end audio shop and listen for yourself! |
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TONY D. Unregistered guest | did you look at my post? I'm in that range you speak of. and I found very little difference. so I guess if someone wants to experiment and see if cables make a difference for them fine. but just because you have fine audio gear that doesn't mean high end cables are going to do anything for you. I would rather spend my time listening to music or auditioning equipment instaed of wondering if my cables are just right. |
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TONY D. Unregistered guest | joes system is probably very nice too. "maybe a better amplification setup" sorry joe not to knock pioneer elite but if these guys want to nit pic! all i'm saying is that if you have lofi or hifi doesn't mean cables will or won't make a big difference. so i say put the money somewhere else and buy average cables for your system. If you went by the theory of cables then every piece of equipment and speakers you try you need to go through the whole cable routine all over again. and that's just silly. |
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misterHT Unregistered guest | you can use a lamp cord and not notice a difference. It's all hype. Don't waste your money. |
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misterHT Unregistered guest | you can use a lamp cord and not notice a difference. It's all hype. Don't waste your money. |
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Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 124 Registered: Jul-04 | Tony D. Very impressive, my friend - you'r obviously blessed with way more money than I'll ever have. And, in the end, I'm wondering if you're hearing better MUSIC, or better SOUND? they are different, after all. Not making excuses for my relative poverty or low-end equipment, but I have listened rather extensively to "hi-end" cables both in and outside of hi-end shops - and I have yet to hear any "musical" difference between what I have and what you have. Maybe, if the Gods have their way, and I get a few million, I'll invest in equipment comparable to yours - and then I may hook it all up with thousand-dollar cables. Well, I surely hope that I do hear a difference then - or else, well, is that all there is? Not putting you down - really - IF you hear more musical sounds - great! I envy you. Meanwhile, we lo-fi folk slop along best we can, with what we can afford, given the need to keep wives and such in food, clothing, and rent. Respectfully, Larry R. |
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Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 125 Registered: Jul-04 | OOPS - my previous post was meant for Mark Curtis, not Tony D. BLUSH - getting old!!!! LR |
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Bronze Member Username: ShantaoPost Number: 40 Registered: Apr-04 | read the interesting article.... skin effect... gee and my electrical enigeer pal who works for the power company said that is what he works with when using 250,000 volt high power lines and that it is irrelevant at the voltage that stereos might produce. Not being an engineer I cannot say. On the other hand, as a psychologist, I am intimately aware of expectancy effects, placebos, and other research artifacts that effect human perception. What is interesting is that among those professing hearing discernable differences in wires, those disappear completely in double blind tests. In such tests as have been conducted the respondents guesses are no better than random in choosing wire from common zip cord. This has been demonstrated over and over again. While it does not prove that there are not differences in wire, it surely casts doubt on claims that there are such substantial improvements as are commonly claimed. Personally, I could care less if you run solid gold wire layed on angels wings, it is after all a free country and your money. As for me, I will stick with good quality inexpensive stuff and go play xbox, it sounds great in dolby digital 5.1 on the HK. such fun. Take care. |
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Bronze Member Username: KnightshadeTaunton, Somerset England Post Number: 26 Registered: May-04 | Larry, No offence taken, guess I went off a little on that one... End of the day it's what sounds right to you. I listen to all types of music and it does sound great. I'm not really into the whole DVD thing so I guess sound isn't important but music is. This setup works for me It may sound dreadful to your ear! I think this whole cables thing is getting a little out of hand (as I believe I've said before there are far to many variables to put everything into cables) Everyone, as Shan Tao has said is entitled to there opinion but Shan for every article you can show me that says there is no difference I'll show you one that says there is! All relative I guess.. Larry, As for cable costs, my cables are mid range. As I said I have listened to ridiculously priced cables i.e £2000 per metre interconnects and these did not sound as musical as the ones I use. Speaker cable (I don't think) is such a big deal, I have a friend with a similar setup and he uses CAT 5 cable! (He does have solid silver interconnects) Personal preference. (Again!) So don't get me wrong. I'm not saying go out and buy the dearest cables you can get, just shop around there are some really good cables around that don't have to break the bank as i'm sure you've found. Everyone else, Don't buy into the hype just because someone says so! Listen for yourself. If you like what you hear buy it! But if people out there like to use lamp cords (I do pity you - really) who am I to argue? I'm still firmly in the camp of good cables. Until someone shows me a lamp cord that can do as good a job at which point I will eat my hat and probably cry! Enjoy the music - I'm sure it sounds great whatever you own! |
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Unregistered guest | Joe.....i'm a musician........NOT a salesman, ok? I'm not affiliated with any product, manufacturer or dealer. I have the experience from a decade of hi end retail audio sales, plus 30 years of recording/playing experience. I have had the pleasure of working with some of audio's best and brightest, and learned much from them. Among them, Jeff Rowland of Rowland Research, a hi-end amp/pre-amp manufacturer in southern Colorado. Also, Roy Johnson of Green Mountain Audio. Roy and I worked together for about 18 months. We would spend day's evaluating and selling equipment and nights changing a capacitor in the speakers he was designing. I can attest to both companies designs as I have first hand knowledge of the companies leadership. |
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Unregistered guest | Larry R, you don't need to spend a small fortune to get decent sound. If I were you, i'd replace that JVC Cd player with a Toshiba 3950 cd/dvd player and a pair of Analog 2's from Signal Cable. The Toshiba is a pretty good sounding unit at a fair price (as low as $20.00) Here's a link to a test review of the Signal Cable inter-connects: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue7/signal.htm Onkyo is decent equipment. Polk? Not sure of the newer stuff. Belden wire, as I pointed out in an above post, can be great, but runs the gamut, so if you know what your doing, you'll be fine. If not? Who knows. I just suggested an upgrade that would make your cd's sound very good for what, under $80.00 shipped. Your move. Check out www.audioasylum.com for more thoughts on the cheap Toshiba. Click on the digital forum. |
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Unregistered guest | Larry R, you don't need to spend a small fortune to get decent sound. If I were you, i'd replace that JVC Cd player with a Toshiba 3950 cd/dvd player and a pair of Analog 2's from Signal Cable. The Toshiba is a pretty good sounding unit at a fair price (as low as $20.00) Here's a link to a test review of the Signal Cable inter-connects: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue7/signal.htm Onkyo is decent equipment. Polk? Not sure of the newer stuff. Belden wire, as I pointed out in an above post, can be great, but runs the gamut, so if you know what your doing, you'll be fine. If not? Who knows. I just suggested an upgrade that would make your cd's sound very good for what, under $80.00 shipped. Your move. Check out www.audioasylum.com for more thoughts on the cheap Toshiba. Click on the digital forum. |
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Unregistered guest | Larry, my equipment is as follows. Turntable: Linn Lp-12 Cartridge: Ortofon Om-40 CD transport: Modified Philips unit. Pre-amp: Citation Signiture Series straight line Amp: Arrogon 200 watt/ solid state Cables: Analog2 from Signal Cable from pre-to amp and analysis plus from cd to pre Speakers: Green Mountain Audio Europa's Wire: soon to be upgraded original monster cable. (10 gauge) Nothing that costs as much as a house. Whole system cost is under $2k new. not bad huh? Keep in mind, I do have connections to buy for less than retail.....much less. |
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Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 129 Registered: Jul-04 | Mauimusicman et al Thank you for a reasoned reply to my oft-frustrating posts! As I "think" I posted on this or a similar thread, I did, indeed, buy a Toshiba 3960 from Best Buy - brought it home and tried to play it - but the drawer jammed, and after I finally got it to work, it refused to accept any commands. I took it back. They didn't have another one in stock. Yes, I DO intend to upgrade the JVC - but frankly I'm waiting for new models to come out this Fall so I can get a SACD player. (I'm already collecting SACD hybrid discs) I guess that, for you, my Blue Jeans cables are less than desirable. To me, after reading too many reviews and reports, I thought them to be a fine company, using quality wire and connectors. With my level of equipment - even after a CD upgrade, I doubt that expensive wire would make that much difference - only my "opinion," not fact. Just trying to learn, without offending, I hope. Respectfully, Larry R. |
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Bronze Member Username: GoldenarrowPost Number: 85 Registered: Jun-04 | So, I DON'T have to sell my body parts on eBay in order to obtain great sound? That is a relief!!!  |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 43 Registered: May-04 | I have the experience from a decade of hi end retail audio sales? mauimusicman, your starting to believe your own bull crap! |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 46 Registered: May-04 | this thread will not die fight you weak |
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Unregistered guest | Joe, I believe what my ears tell me. Nothing more...nothing less. My ears don't lie. In fact, they were recently tested. Better than textbook. In fact, as good as any my doctor had seen/heard of. If you had better equipment, you too, would hear the differences. Until that time, please refrain from comments that show your lack of experience. Someday, when you have a good system, you'll look back on these posts and be embarassed. I live on Maui....one of the most expensive places on this planet. I don't tend to piss away money for no reason. Median home price here is $650K. Don't leave a lot for cables that improve sound only in your imagination. I don't do placebo effect. But, as I discovered here in another thread, many posters here don't know the proper way to asseble a hi-fi syatem, and feel the need to argue their illogical point till they are blue in the face. No wonder Bose sells so much gear: They get all the "screw it...i'm tired of trying to make my system sound good" folks that post here and worse yet, LISTEN to guys like you and Kegger. So, for the last time, if you don't hear the difference between cheap and hi-end cables.....GET BETTER GEAR! Larry, your main problem is the JVC transport. Sorry you had problems with the Toshiba. Philips makes a VERY nice player, sacd, but costs $300.00 Might have better luck there. $50.00 dvd players that sound good are few and far between.....the Toshiba is one of those. Good Luck. |
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TONY D. Unregistered guest | uuhhhh hhhuumm. check back about 20 posts. |
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Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 168 Registered: Jul-04 | MauiMM - well, we may not agree totally on the cable-difference, but I know that my wife and I did hear differences when we did our Great Cable Shootout! G R I N With my level of equipment, I think even you might agree that a $600 pair of speaker cables might be a bit overkill? The Blue Jeans 10-AWG seem fine - and I only wish I could remember the brands of other cables that my recording engineer-friend sent to me on loan. Only ones I DO remember are BetterCables and Cobalt. Both seemed very good - but frankly, between those and the Blue Jeans - a tossup - for us - opinion only. Don't know if you've been following some of the posts between Jan Vigne and me - re the sound of my Polk RTi6 speakers, etc. Anyway, it has come down to this: the JVC M U S T go - as you say. Tomorrow, I'm bringing my doctor-friend's Marantz 8400 home from his house - will hook it up with my rig and see how it sings - or not. Will post results on "Twilight of the CD" threads. Now, as to the Toshiba - I'm going to go back to (shudder) Best Buy today and see if there's another 3960 left over. If so, I'll try again. I did note the serial number on the one that broke, so I won't get that one again! Drawer wouldn't work, anyway, so I'd know immediately. But please, can you or someone else tell me - why does that "cheap" deck sound good (haven't heard it myself, note) and my well-reviewed JVC sound so, uh, cruddy? The suggested retail on my unit was $169 - discounted to $79. That's in line with the Toshiba. Not being an engineer, I can open the cases, peer inside, and say, "my, what a nice layout of parts!" That's my understanding-level. Sigh. I'm eagerly awaiting September, when new Sony, Denon, Samsung and Philips multi-play units come on the market. Plus, I COULD win the lottery, you know! GRIN Have a Maui day! Larry R. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 47 Registered: May-04 | mauimusicman you are a complete turd! i dont believe a word you say! whos' your doctor? DR. Bombay? HA! everyones ears degrade over time and you say your a musician. you most off all should have some sort off hearing loss at your OLD AGE. I bet you cant hear above 1000 HZ. your musak should be in braille. so go back and waste all your money "RICH OLD MAN". i wish i had superman hearing like you. I guess then my system really would suck. but untill then MY SH*T ROCKS! what a goofball. usually the guys that brag the most are the most full of crap! what a dork! |
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Bronze Member Username: ShantaoPost Number: 43 Registered: Apr-04 | Greetings Maui; you shared: Joe, I believe what my ears tell me. Nothing more...nothing less. My ears don't lie. In fact, they were recently tested. Better than textbook. In fact, as good as any my doctor had seen/heard of." Good for you. My ears are well into the dog range as well. It proves nothing. you shared: " If you had better equipment, you too, would hear the differences. Until that time, please refrain from comments that show your lack of experience. Someday, when you have a good system, you'll look back on these posts and be embarassed." I appreciate comments like this. However, if you are correct you should be able to offer credible scientific evidence that substantiates it. Not interesting theory pages about skin effect and other such interesting stuff. Real scientific studies with control groups and double blind stimuli presented where prople can identify premium cable from cheap cable at a rate better than chance. I have looked extensively for such studies and they don't exist. The ones done to date show people cannot identify the expensive stuff from the cheap in double blind studies. you shared: " I live on Maui....one of the most expensive places on this planet. " And I envy you, it may be one of the seven deadly sins, but I envy you just the same. Visited Maui once and didn't want to leave. Neither here nor there really...... you shared: <gently> "... Don't leave a lot for cables that improve sound only in your imagination. I don't do placebo effect. " But that is just it. Short of doing actual comparisons in a controlled double blind setting, you only know that *you believe* one to be better. Short term auditory memory is too, well, short to be able to swap wires and make a comparison. Expectancy effects are exhaustively studied and you tend to perceive what you believe. Likewise, if you know the one wire is more expensive and you believe it to be better, than it will be better, for you. Nothing magical or sinister about that, the effect of belief on perception is extensively documented in psychological literature. ANother problem with changing wires and asking spouses is the well documented Hawthorne effect, where people perceive improvement because they see you making changes and believe it to be for the better. These are confounding variables and for any meaningful comparison or generalizability you must control for them. In the absence of them the best you have is a subjective judgement, which is based on belief, expectancy, and perception, all of which are fickle. I wish to stress here I am not saying that expensive wires or cheaper wires are better or not, just that all you can say is that they are better *for you*. It is a subjective report. Not the kind of generalizable finding that allows one with confidence to denigrate those with differening beliefs or cheaper systems without credible scientific *proof*. you shared: " But, as I discovered here in another thread, many posters here don't know the proper way to asseble a hi-fi syatem, and feel the need to argue their illogical point till they are blue in the face. No wonder Bose sells so much gear: They get all the "screw it...i'm tired of trying to make my system sound good" folks that post here and worse yet, LISTEN to guys like you and Kegger. " That does nothing to prove your arguement. Just because you do not agree with another's point of view does not make it "illogical". Making accusatory and denigrating comments about those that disagree with your beliefs doesn't make you any more right or wrong. Again, to beat it with a dead horse, you are presenting your *subjective* point of view about your belief that more expensive wires make your system sound better. Others have differing beliefs. The studies done to date show in double blind studies there is no discernable difference among listeners. If you can demonstrate that there is a difference that is measurable among listeners, then by all means please do. you shared: " So, for the last time, if you don't hear the difference between cheap and hi-end cables.....GET BETTER GEAR! " Or not. For me, while I do not discount the possiblity that there might be some improvement in using expensive wires; the probabliliy based on the current literature is that there is not a demonstrable difference. In light of that evidence I will continue to use the stuff I have and be just happy about it. Take gentle care. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1110 Registered: Dec-03 | I'VE tried to reason with maui and suggest that he not make statements like those above and have rational discussions. but it just seems if you have a different point of view than him you are wrong and that's the end of it. there are so many ways to do things and so many pieces of equipment out there that pretty much nothing is set in stone when it comes to audio. let alone personal preference. |
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Anonymous | Go over to Audio Asylum and you'll see maui has totally worn out his welcome in that forum. He is an arrogant blowhard. |
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Unregistered guest | Anonymous.....ya just can't keep yer mouth shut, except when I ask you a question.....like in the Creek Vs Musical Fidelity thread. Cat got yer tongue or are you simply incapable of an intelligent reply? Waiting for a fact based reply to my post in that thread. Hey everyone, go read it....in the AMPS section of this forum. Then everyone will see who is and who is not a "blowhard" I see you've diversed from any fact based audio discussions to lower yourself to name calling. Didn't think you had any real knowledge to begin with. Audio Asylum.....hey Anonymous...how many GMA Europa fans you see there nowadays? Loved the review by DennisJ. See dude, when music lovers listen, they love them. Someday you'll wise up and listen to a pair. Strike that...you'll never wise up. Joe: you digress. Shan: Cables cannot be "measured" like other audio equipment. Thank god. You don't wanna open your mind to the possibility that cables can be better than hardware upgrades, fine. Don't call yourself an audiophile or music lover though. Call yourself stupborn and hard headed. You say "For me, while I do not discount the possiblity that there might be some improvement in using expensive wires; the probabliliy based on the current literature is that there is not a demonstrable difference. In light of that evidence I will continue to use the stuff I have and be just happy about it" Sounds like a Bose Accoutimass customer. IF you believe "literature", you'd believe that JVC& Bose make the finest audio gear on the planet. Kegger.....come talk to me in 5 years when you and I can have some serious audio discussions. You've tried to REASON with me? No, all you have done is state your opinion and argue with me. Would be ok IF you had just ONE credible source for your opinion, but you don't. Talk to me when you do ok? Any others? Your on a roll here guys. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 48 Registered: May-04 | I digress |
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Bronze Member Username: KnightshadeTaunton, Somerset England Post Number: 29 Registered: May-04 | OK, so everyone has different opinion. Fine! But has anyone here actually compared an Atlas or Chord interconnects with a monster interconnects? Or perhaps Nordost in a double blind test on a £30K + system? Well? Have you? If you haven't try it for yourself (Don't read some drivell in a magazine - Go into a shop and try it!) I have! Not wishing to sound elitist but if you haven't your not qualified to express any sort of opinion. Regardless of price there is a difference. Unless your deaf you won't pick the monster cable! If you do the same test on a £5K system you may well pick the monster, who knows? We're not talking about 'is it value for money' here. Purely is one better than the other? The answer is yes! (Don't take my word for it - Try it!) OK, rant over. Generally (you may or may not agree) you can get a very exceptable even excellent musical system without spending the earth. On a percentage scale you can get 90% of the way on a reasonable budget. The next 5% costs you a lot. The last 5% is nearly impossible. It's proportionate, How many of you have listened to £10K systems and thought: that's not much (if any) better than what I have! Quite a few I expect. Listen to a well put together £30K system and you will notice the difference. But is it worth it??? If you aren't rich probably not. If you are then it may be! Same deal with cables. If you can afford it and want that nth degree then it's a good investment. If you can't then they are expensive rip offs offering very little improvment. As I've said before: Don't close your minds. There may, possibly, be something better out there than you own. Even better than your GMA's Maui! Enjoy! |
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Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 176 Registered: Jul-04 | Sigh. Sitting here on the sidelines, I have a couple of comments. First, as I posted earlier, my wife and I did rather extensive cable tests, courtesy of an engineer-friend and his "loaners." Unfortunately, with a few exceptions, I've forgotten the hi-end brands - but he priced them, and I know they cost a lot of money. At any rate - on OUR poor liddle system - we were able to make some distinctions in sound. Not major, but "there." Had we been fortunate enough to afford systems like some of you, we might have had different results entirely. We are trying to do the best we can within our budget. Do we believe in cable-sound differences, well - we think so. But my wife, who has excellent hearing, was the only one of us able to "test blind." I, obviously, knew which cable was being used each time. Wish I'd had a close friend (whom I trusted to touch my gear!!) around at the time. So now we have Mark and Shan and Kegger and Joe and Annonymous and MauiMM all shouting at each other. That's sad, gentlemen. Am I an "expert?" Heck, no. Have some opinions, and hope that I'm always open to new ideas and concepts. These eCoustics forums have been of great help to me in my search for better sound. Y'all have steered me away from such trash as my JVC CD player, and towards at least a search for better equipment, whether it be wire or receiver or speakers, etc. For all that, I thank you. For anything I may have said that you - any of you - considered out of line, well, I'm sorry. I just hope that in some way everybody can step back just a bit and think, then post non-inflamatory remarks. To Mark - God bless you for being rich enough to have dream-level equipment. To those of us who can only dream - please let's try to be idea-promoters, not put-down artists. Is that too much to ask? I hope not. Respectfully, Larry R. |
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Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 177 Registered: Jul-04 | Oh, yes - one more point. My doctor-friend, whose house I "babysit" during summer months, had a hi-end store set up his two listening/viewing areas recently. As he is no expert, he just gave them a couple of huge checks, and they came in and wired and plugged, etc. As a direct beneficiary of all this, I get to take my CDs across-town on occasion and hear some pretty good equipment. I abide by his wish that I not use his prime viewing room, where he has 60" wall-mounted TV, McIntosh amps and 12 built-in speakers. Sorry, I don't know the brand - neither, incredibly, does he! (he just signs checks) So - I'm left with the "poor man's" setup in the living room. A Marantz 8400 CD player, a Sunfire receiver, and two large Martin Logan speakers. Surround speakers are built-into the ceiling - brand unknown (of course!). The only "wires" that I have recognized, or are on his equipment list, are Cobalt cables for interconnects and Belden 10-AWG wire to the Martin Logans. It all sounds so much better than my humble gear that I cannot believe it! But that is THE ENTIRE PACKAGE that sounds "better." So, again, what makes the difference - it all does. Together. For that, Mark is correct. Great gear demands that all products be of high quality. How "high" is the stuff of argument. Respectfully, Larry R. |
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Bronze Member Username: KnightshadeTaunton, Somerset England Post Number: 30 Registered: May-04 | Thankyou Larry, (for doing exactly what I suggested) Atlast someone who sees reason! I totally agree with you! It is the entire package. The only thing I tried to point out is that if you forget about the cost factor you will hear a difference (however small) between good and bad cables. Unfortunatly good seems to cost more.... As you say the stuff of argument. It's not my wish to upset or belittle anyone. If i've offended you or anyone else it's been unintentional and I apologise. I just find it difficult when people are so narrow minded that they flatly refuse to consider the other persons point of view! As I have said before. If someone can show me a cheap alternative (I have tested some of the cables mentioned on this forum. Not all - Being in England it is not possible to obtain some of them) I will gladly listen and if in my opinion it's better I will use it (and kick myself for wasting a lot of money!) Unfortunatly (for my wallet) No-one has been able to do this yet. Best of luck to you Larry. I hope you get a great system that you are very happy with. May you spend many long evenings enjoying it! To everyone else: This is a very personal hobby. Therefore there can only be opinion. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1112 Registered: Dec-03 | guy's i'm not arguing or saying that "you" don't hear a difference. I would question someone saying they had a huge difference though. my last statement before i got roped back in pretty much says it. "you have people saying cables make huge differences. you have people saying they make no difference. then you have people saying they make subtle differences. this thread is going nowhere. their is enough written hear that anyone can form their own oppinion. if you believe cables make a huge difference than buy the realy expensive ones. if you believe they make no difference than get the cheap ones. if you believe they make a subtle difference but as long as you have descent quality cables they work just as good as anything else for "your" system. then buy the midgrade cables. are people really that hurt if someone doesn't believe the same philosophy as yourself, that you have to try and pound it down their thraots and say believe darn yu! GET THE CABLES YOU WANT, THAT MAKE YOU AND YOUR SYSTEM HAPPY WITHOUT WONDERING IF OTHER PEOPLE BELIEVE LIKE YOU DO!" that's all that i'm saying. nothing more nothing less. but i prescribe to the. "if you believe they make a subtle difference but as long as you have descent quality cables they work just as good as anything else for "your" system. then buy the midgrade cables." that is just my oppinion/Philosophy! iF your's is different great, just don't state that your thinking is right and others are wrong. se yu guys, listen to the music and enjoy! |
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TONY D. Unregistered guest | This was my statement on! Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 09:58 am: "larry i'm not sure about maui's statement. I run a marantz 8400 dvd player with a theta casablbanca II prepro plus the dreadnaught amp to Aerial 10T speakers up front with the center channel and surrounds to boot. which i would consider very very good equipment. I have tried many a cable and wire with little to no difference in sound. after trying many cables and wires i am in belief that good well made cables is all you need. I had my 10t's first because i love the sound of them. then i upgraded to the theta stuff from a pioneer elite reciever. the reciever did a very good job with the Aerial's but these speakers are very power hungry and the theta amp powers them just right. all the moving of equipment led me to the trying of different cables and after all the trials i went back to average good cabling "A.R. PRO LINE". I find them very reasonable quality cabling. so to me balnket statements like, if you can't hear a difference your equipment must not be very good. is just way off base. it might make a difference on some systems "but i would bet very little" but cetainly not all, even if they are very very good. all i can say is be carefull what/who you listen too. judge for yourself what you believe is the right way to do it. It's fine to take peoples oppinion's but beware of the ones that say, do it this way because this is the right way to do it. there is allways more than one way to do something." |
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Anonymous | "hey Anonymous...how many GMA Europa fans you see there nowadays?" What does GMA Europa speakers have to do with you being an arrogant know it all? By the way Anonymous is not a user id, so I have no idea what your talking about about being asked a question. That must have been someone else sick of you. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShantaoPost Number: 44 Registered: Apr-04 | Greetings Maui; you shared: " Shan: Cables cannot be "measured" like other audio equipment. Thank god." Hmmm. An interesting contention. The audioholics.com people ran a bunch of cables through various tests versus plain old vanilla 12 guage zip cord and found that in the 20-20000hz range there appeared to be no difference. What they did appears to have measured something. But what I am more interested in, being the Psychologist I am, is in whether or not your hypothesis that there are audible differences in cables are discernable by listeners. And this must be done in a controlled setting where both the examiners and listeners *do not* know what cable they are listening to - the so-called "double blind" setting. What I have been trying to communicate, is that the times this has been done, those professing beliefs in audible differences have not shown identification of those preferences versus regular old zip cord in double blind tests. Again to belabor the obvious, this DOES NOT mean that there are no differences in cables, but what it does indicate is that listeners in double blind tests cannot tell the difference statistically. you shared: " You don't wanna open your mind to the possibility that cables can be better than hardware upgrades, fine. Don't call yourself an audiophile or music lover though." Don't recall calling myself anything really, except perhaps annoying but it's a fair cop and well earned ;-) But is seems, unless my memory is shot, that I have been perfectly willing to concede that there are differences but that my experience and the data from double blind studies do not support it at this time. Like the scientist I pretend myself to be, if I am presented with new data I will have to modify my present hypothesis that there is no measurable difference in favor of a new hypothesis that says there is. you shared" " Call yourself stupborn and hard headed. " Again just for fun and the sake of clarity, I am perfectly willing to modify my hypothesis and/or beliefs when presented with new data. I am also willing to concede (and have done so in this and other threads) that the possibility that there is some audible effect from cables exists. I don't see how that is stubborn or closed minded. Quite the contrary I remain open to the possibility but that the data presently doesn't support it. I had blathered on: "For me, while I do not discount the possiblity that there might be some improvement in using expensive wires; the probabliliy based on the current literature is that there is not a demonstrable difference. In light of that evidence I will continue to use the stuff I have and be just happy about it" To which you replied: " Sounds like a Bose Accoutimass customer. IF you believe "literature", you'd believe that JVC& Bose make the finest audio gear on the planet. " Bose Acoustimass owner; now that's just hitting below the belt! As for "literature" I am not referring to companies glossy ads, nor wonderful works such as Huck Finn or Hamlet, but to research literature. When Psychologist types prattle on about topics, they talk about what the (research) literature has found, hence the phrase "the literature shows, etc". Hope that clarifies a bit. Take gentle care. |
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Unregistered guest | One thing that strikes me as odd guys is this: The people who buy high dollar cables tend to be the ones that have been in audio for some time. The ones that tend to say blatantly "there is no difference in cable so save your money" are usually the relative newbies. In my experience, audiophiles tend to get better gear as time goes on. Their income increases also, so they can afford better gear. Better gear reveals more than entry level product. Buy better gear I don't mean you went from a JVC to a Yamaha to a Nad. I mean Linn, Edge, Krell, Rowland, etc. I don't mean you went from Pioneer HPM-100 speakers to Paradigm. I mean things like Lowther, Sonus Faber, Accoustat, Vandersteen, Theil, Meadowlark, GMA, etc. 1st order crossover speakers reveal more of the musical signal than 2nd, 4th etc do. Whats funny is the newbies want us all to think they are right because they can hear no differences. Amazing. No audiophile I know of buys product based upon what they hear or don't hear in a shop. They evaluate in their home...on their system. Most audio stores have a plethora of speakers in one room. Even hi end shops usually have more than one pair in that room. Any speaker in the room with any other speaker will absolutely have some effect on the speaker your listening to. They also have selector switches that add distortion and cause other problems. In a shop, almost never will you hear the gear you have at home. Almost never will it be quiet. Almost never will you be able to concentrate on sound. Almost never is it late at night when a/c lines are quieter. I'd be suspect if anyone ever could hear differences in cables under those circumstances. If you want to believe cables all sound the same, so be it. Hundreds of thousands of us know better. Yo, Annonymous.......what are YOU listening to? Share with me, please? Shan, perhaps you could explain to me why, if psychologists have all the answers we have millions of people on Prozac, Zoloft and Paxil? Refer to your "literature" for the answers. |
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Bronze Member Username: CorneliusPost Number: 27 Registered: Jun-04 | Zip cord and Monster cable is for strangling the insurance companies who constantly pressure doctors to fill out such prescriptions. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShantaoPost Number: 45 Registered: Apr-04 | Maui; thank you for your reply. you shared: " Shan, perhaps you could explain to me why, if psychologists have all the answers we have millions of people on Prozac, Zoloft and Paxil? Refer to your "literature" for the answers. " An interesting canard. I think that is a logical non-sequitor. The one topic is independent and irrelevant of our current discussion. Rather than address the issue raised, namely, that research has failed to show significant statistical differences among listers with regards to cable in double blind studies you choose to discuss psychopharmacology and the efficacy of psychological treatment modalities. If you would like to discuss psychological literature regarding treating depression with medication and other treatment issues, I would be happy to oblidge, but I think others here might find it less than interesting being an audio forum and all. But it might seem that millions take Paxil, Prozan, Zoloft, Wellbutrin, etc., because they are depressed. Other approaches such as cognitive behavior therapies tend to be slightly more efficacious than drugs alone, but it is often easier to get a prescription than participate in therapy. There is a whole school of Psychology called "Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REPT)" that posits that people hold irrational beliefs that themselves, others, and world conditions be other than they are and as a result disturb or depress themselves. On another note, it is interesting to note that you feel that those who express a healthy dose of skepticism regarding wire claims that cannot be proven scientifically are usually "newbies". It would appear that there are many who are also well experienced audiophiles as well. You cite that "audiophiles tend to get better gear as time goes on". One might also argue, just to be the devil's advocate, that they inculcate themselves over time with a set of beliefs and then operate under those beliefs which then influences their perception and the conclusions they draw regarding all this. Or not. But it seems that even "The Amazing Randi",is getting involved in all this. On his website, he apparently reviews "Stereophile's" decision not to use double blind tests when evaluating equiptment and cables. He thought their claims bordered on the Paranormal. http://www.randi.org/jr/072304willful.html#11 Such fun. Take gentle care. |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 49 Registered: May-04 | hey mauimusicman In the immortal word of "Smokey" from the great movie Friday, You got knocked the F*ck out! ha ha ha ha ha Shan Tao I love your posts. very cerebral. Late |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 1135 Registered: Dec-03 | WOW...this thread really kickin'. Nothing works up an audio forum like wires and Bose. |
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Gold Member Username: Project6Post Number: 1136 Registered: Dec-03 | I wonder if the original poster (Tahoe Mick) made a decision?? What say you, Tahoe Mick??? Are you still following this thread? |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 50 Registered: May-04 | i think he is shell shocked |
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Bronze Member Username: ElitePost Number: 51 Registered: May-04 | vote Kerry |
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