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| Anyone know what size of speaker wire I should run in my walls for my surround 6.1 system that is being built. Room is 19x23 and speakers are 4-8 ohms with lots of power handling capability. Im thinking maybe 14 gauge but not sure if that size is neccasary for those speakers. Also I have to consider the install of the wires to be longlasting and I cant "upgrade it" in the future. |
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Anonymous | Anything being built in walls should be over-spec'd IMHO. Who knows down the road if you really want to upgrade your speakers and find out that your sub-par wires won't give them what they need. I would go with a medium priced 12 gauge with good protection from eletrical, moisture and heat or higher end thinner wire built for in wall installations. |
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Anonymous | Everything you ever wanted to know about speaker cable. |
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G-Man | True enough. The reason that speaker manufacturers and amplifier manufacturers that aren't involved in wire production don't like to tell the truth about wires anymore is that their retailers make a ton of money on horrendously priced speaker wire and cables. Same reason many high end speaker manufacturers put in bi-wiring capabilities. they know it makes ZERO difference, due to the laws of physics, but the tweako universe and aggressive marketting made talking about and fighting that battle pointless--as there was no money to be made in pissing off retailers, wire manufacturers, and "true believers". Now bi-amping can have an effect, but for most applications is pointless. But bi-wiring from the same amplifier can't increase the watts to the woofer or tweeter or midrange. The day a wire or audiophile can prove it does they will win a Nobel Prize in Physics. |
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Derek | Actually Bi-Wiring from the same amp CAN have an effect but it's not the effect everyone thinks. Bi-Wiring has the same effect as using a thicker piece of wire. By that I mean: running two sets of 18G wire for a long run MIGHT sound A LITTLE less constricted as compared to one run of 18G, BUT you may as well run one set of 16G wire for the same effect. Running two sets of garden hose sized jumper cables from an amp 48 inches away from a speaker is a total waste of time and money. Most of this junk comes from ex-military engineers who are used to GHz microwave frequencies where capacitance and skin-effect. Don't be fooled... |
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timn8ter | I'll agree with the marketing ploy being pushed on the audio public concerning speaker wire and audio inconnects. There's more snake oil here than scientific fact. A good 12 AWG oxygen-free copper wrapped in silicon or teflon is as good as anything else on the market for home use. |
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timn8ter | for speaker wire that is. As for inconnects, I've always made my own from good quality RG6 coax (Belden or Gepco) and good connectors (Canare). |
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Hawk | whiteusmc75: For in-wall installation, you have to have "archetectural wiring". It doesn't require anything real thick, such as 12 gauge, but in wall wiring requires that the wire have a second jacket around it. This is a requirement of your local building code, and you can't get an inspector to sign off on the electrical wiring without the right type of wire. Check out Parts Express at the following link: http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=40 They have a very nice 16 gauge jacketed wire which should be just fine for your installation. However, they have a good 12 gauge in-wall wire, as well, if that is what you prefer. My favorite, however, is the 14 gauge with four leads, which can be used for bi-wiring. Lots of good choices, which can be bought in bulk, at a reasonable price. I hope this helps. |
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Derek | Hawk, that's exactly what I use. One thing that I noticed about most archetectual wire is the very thin jacket. Then I looked at some of the high-end speaker wire and noticed that about a third of the garden hose stuff's width is plastic. 'Looks like a lot of that money people are spending is on this stuff is thick plastic and not on more copper. A fool and his money... |
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Anonymous | >>>As for inconnects, I've always made my own from good quality RG6 coax (Belden or Gepco) and good connectors (Canare).<<< I would like to make my own interconnects. Where can I find/buy the cable and connectors? Thanks |
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John Allen | If you buy fancy interconnects and speaker cable, a good rule is that your are paying too much and being ripped off if the direction of the signal is indicated by arrows on the outer casing. How anyone thinks electrons know which way to flow to bring you your music amazes me. Monster cable et al. - if they are competent to make cable, they must know it makes no difference which way round you connect it. For speakers, the thicker the copper core, the better. For co-axial interconnects the same applies, but good screening by the outer cable is important too. But losses are much less because the path is usually shorter. If you make up your own cable it should be just long enough to make the connection. Audio co-ax works with video and digital, but there is less loss and risk of interference with a dedicated 35 ohm cable. I haven't seen the same bull about optical digitial connectors. Perhaps everyone knows short pulses of light either get through or they don't. |
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Anonymous | "your are paying too much and being ripped off if the direction of the signal is indicated by arrows on the outer casing" The arrows don't indicate the direction of the signal. I have never seen a manufacturer ever represent it that way. The arrows indicate where the shielding is grounded and has nothing to do with the signal. You are correct in saying that it makes no difference in which way you connect it, it will transmit a signal either way. The real arguement is whether any interference will get in if installed backwards. I can't answer this since I got "ripped off" by purchasing audio cable with arrows on them (a name brand which I purchased for less than $10/pair... such a rip off, I know) and I don't have any EMI or RFI interference (which is just about all I ask for in an interconnect). I guess I should have cut my losses and gone to Radio Shack and picked up some unshielded $5 cables that don't have arrows on them huh? |
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timn8ter | "I would like to make my own interconnects. Where can I find/buy the cable and connectors?" Try Markertek.com I'd recommend Gepco VSD2001 coax and Canare F-10 RCA connectors. If you want to make them pretty add some shrink wrap. |
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John Allen | "The arrows indicate where the shielding is grounded and has nothing to do with the signal." Thanks, Anonymous. Well, they could try telling you that! But don't you want it grounded both ends? If not, how do you know which end to ground? This is new to me. Many purchasers will think arrows mean "signal this way", as I did, even if it is nonsense. I have many interconnects, from my home made with gold plugs, to Monster, to cheap sealed-in things that came free with the unit. I really can't hear any difference, and connecting the Monsters "backwards" make no audible difference. I like my home made ones because I can congratulate myeself on the soldering and know there are no stray strands of copper. |
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John Allen | "The arrows indicate where the shielding is grounded" Thank you, anomymous. They DO tell you. But the problem does not go away. From Monster cable FAQ:- "Why do the cables have directional arrows? "This is done for shielding purposes only, a design where we do not solder the shield on the signal's destination. This ensures that any noise picked up by the shield will not be transmitted into your signal path". So we are back to square one, something knows which way your signal travels. And the noise, hoping to go straight to the signal "destination", realizes its mistake, and disappears from the circuit? Now I am not trained in electronics, but there are people posting here who are. What am I missing? Or are they pulling the leg? From Monster cable FAQ:- (Note use of quotes, I think they don't believe it themselves) What is the "source" in terms of connecting my cables? The source would be the origin of the signal or sound. This would be a CD player, phono player, VCR or whatever is generating the music or video and the arrows should point away from these "sources". |
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Derek | The lifted ground on one end of a cable may help in some systems with grounding problems. All of the equipment must have the powercords connected correctly with reference to the homes ground. Some poorly designed equipment may have problems with the multiple ground paths created by the patch cables. The net result - a slight hum. The cables with the arrows are not neccessary unless you are having a hum problem. A ground eliminator on your Cable TV line will probably have a more significant effect on hum than the patch cables with the arrows. The NEVER use your house's ground. Hope this helps. |
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Anonymous | I never said it would make an audible difference... I was simply pointing out that your comment that all cables with directional arrows are junk and it is a marketing ploy directed at ripping people off isn't correct. A quality product is a quality product regardless of whether it has an arrow on it or not. Saying that all cables with arrows on them are ripoffs is a pretty generalized statement. Like I said. It would have cost me nearly as much to go to Radio Shack and buy cheap unshielded cables as it did for me to buy a quality name brand interconnect that happened to have arrows. Does it make an audible difference? I can't say as I'm not about to tear apart my system to find out. I am happy with the sound (which is what everything boils down to) and happy with the price I paid for the interconnects. As for Monsters FAQ, that sounds about right to me. Souce is the origin of the signal. The arrows point the way the signal travels, not to which end the ground is. It is my assumption that the premis of the single ground is that it is better to ground at the source rather than the destination. Electrons will follow the path of least resistance. The theory is that if any interference or whatever it may be would rather take the easy way down the shielding to the ground point instead of radiating itself into the signal path. It actually does say on my interconnects "Signal Path" with the arrows pointing AWAY from the source. Take a look and sure enough, the ground is at the source with the arrows pointing away. |
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timn8ter | I'm trying to follow this and the only explanation I'm aware of for grounding a braided shield on interconnects is to reduce RF interference and it done using a low ohm resistor. However, if your interconnect is only a few feet long you'd have to be living on a radio tower for it to pick up anything. For applications where coax is typically used (long runs for TV or etc.) a 40+ foot run of wire is susceptible to RF. If it's incorrectly grounded to the house wiring it will pick up the 60 Hz signal from the AC. |
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John Allen | Unless we get someone in from IEEE to explain, I will keep my position, the ignorant layman without money to burn. I am not convinced so far. timn8ter knows more, I am sure. 1. OK you can ground the shield and that will help keep out audible RF interference in strong fields with very long cables. But even then, why ground the shield at one end only? And then, which end? If the RF induces a signal in the audio interconnect circuit it is there, and will be heard or not. What comes out at the "source" is a signal to the "destination" just as much as if it comes out at the "destination". That's what the interconnect does, it connects them. There are only two contacts on one RCA plug. There isn't a separate ground. Those two contacts complete the circuit that carries the signal. Connect the shield to one contact at one end and you might as well connect it to the same one at the other. Am I missing something? 2. Anon. Thanks. I did not mean to wind you up. But look, - if we are talking audio, then "I never said it would make an audible difference..." means "I never said it wasn't a waste of money". No? General apology re earlier post. 75 Ohm cable for digital. |
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timn8ter | I seriously question the "directional" thing too. If it doesn't sound better to YOU then what's the point? |
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Anonymous | I'm not wound up. The point I am getting at is that I own a whole slew of interconnects with arrows that I did not overpay for and the system sounds great. How did I get ripped off or waste money? I could have spend more money... a whole lot more, but I couldn't have spent much less than what I did. |
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John Allen | That's OK then. My remark about arrows was just a suggestion. My point is I can't see what they are for. As long as people without arrows don't feel they are missing something, I agree, they are irrelevant. |