Lexicon RV-5 is a rebaged HK receiver!
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 11 Registered: Jan-08 | [url]http://www.av199.com/thread-166532-1-1.html[/url] [IMG]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/Tawnos_mac/RV-5.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/Tawnos_mac/img200711142200471.gif[/IMG] [url]http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2007/harman_kardon_avr745.shtml[/url] [IMG]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w44/Tawnos_mac/hk_avr745_inside.jpg[/IMG] As you can see it is a direct rebadge with a different power supply unit. I thought this needed its own thread since it took me a long time to find that picture. |
|
Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 658 Registered: Dec-06 | https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=1&post=1421454#POST1421454 As you can see, Bob is an idiot. It didn't take too long to find that out. |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6147 Registered: Feb-05 | Good grief Bob! |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12211 Registered: May-04 | . BS - This deserves to go in the shitcan. |
|
Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1809 Registered: Oct-04 | Bob, do you own either of these? |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12212 Registered: May-04 | . Probably not but he does beleive that fuzzy, out of focus picture of someone who looks like a woman passing someone who is probably male in what appears to be a grocery store is absolute proof his wife is having an affair. |
|
Silver Member Username: ShawnharmanPost Number: 157 Registered: Dec-05 | whatchu talkin bout bob?? |
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 13 Registered: Jan-08 | You people kill me, these units are the same and the only difference is the power supply. keep lying to yourself. |
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 14 Registered: Jan-08 | Oh and they are not fuzzy, you should check your video card/browser settings. |
|
Silver Member Username: ShawnharmanPost Number: 159 Registered: Dec-05 | bob, you dont believe that the power supply matters? the weight is the first thing I check on a unit when I go to test it out. |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2440 Registered: May-05 | "You people kill me, these units are the same and the only difference is the power supply. keep lying to yourself." What reason do we have to lie to ourselves? We didn't buy either receiver. One of three things happened - 1 You bought the Lexicon and feel ripped off. 2 You bought the H/K and want to brag that you're a very well informed shopper and didn't pay extra for worthless features like a better power supply. 3 You have no life and need to argue with people for attention. I'm guessing its a combination of 2 and 3, and a little bit of mental slowness thrown in. |
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 16 Registered: Jan-08 | [quote]bob, you dont believe that the power supply matters? the weight is the first thing I check on a unit when I go to test it out.[/quote] And the HK weights more so what is your point? [quote]Stu Pitt[/quote] I see that you can not argue in defence of the lexicon and other high end peices I have shown so you stoop to a child like level. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9755 Registered: Dec-04 | Hey wait a minute. That grainy shot of a woman is my EX! Damn! |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12242 Registered: May-04 | . And the sad part is the fuzzball guy is BS. Get'im, Nuck! . |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1125 Registered: Jun-07 |  |
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 18 Registered: Jan-08 | So once again you could not prove me wrong. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12248 Registered: May-04 | . No, BS, you can't prove you're right. You're the one who brought this up, it's up to you to prove your point and just saying it's so ain't gonna do it when we have shown you obvious differences between the two components. You are just a troll aren't you? |
|
Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1223 Registered: Nov-04 | Ok bob lets settle this. You look at those two pics and there three clear differences between them besides the power supplies. You look at the board on the bottom right of each picture and you will notice that the positioning for the two big black squares, what I assume are transistors of some sort or maybe processors but I could be wrong, are completely different. The HK has the left most block much closer to the edge and is slightly higher closer to the top edge. This cannot be accounted for by camera angle or any other mumbo jumbo since the chassis of both units look about the same and in the HK, it has moved about an inch. Also, the HK has two sets of wires running from the top down straight to the aforementioned black thing, a ribbon connection and another set of wires in the corner of that edge whereas the Lexicon has only wires spread across the edge which they are connected to. You will also notice in the pictures that the Lexicon has the ribbon in the top left of the unit running almost perpendicular to the board it connects to, whereas the HK has the ribbon going downwards and to the left. All that I have just described can lead to only one conclusion; a difference in the topology of the boards being used in the units. This can only mean that Lexicon and HK are not the same things, and in your example of the RV-5 and the HK-745, they are completely different. There is no reason for someone or some company to redesign a board to make it function exactly the same, especially if you are trying to make the enormous undeserving profits that you so claim. Companies that share the same mother company do not use different looking, differently structured yet identically functioning parts. It is something that just does not happen. Now that you have been shown up please go away and stop trolling here. |
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 21 Registered: Jan-08 | [quote]Ok bob lets settle this. You look at those two pics and there three clear differences between them besides the power supplies. You look at the board on the bottom right of each picture and you will notice that the positioning for the two big black squares, what I assume are transistors of some sort or maybe processors but I could be wrong, are completely different. The HK has the left most block much closer to the edge and is slightly higher closer to the top edge. This cannot be accounted for by camera angle or any other mumbo jumbo since the chassis of both units look about the same and in the HK, it has moved about an inch. Also, the HK has two sets of wires running from the top down straight to the aforementioned black thing, a ribbon connection and another set of wires in the corner of that edge whereas the Lexicon has only wires spread across the edge which they are connected to. You will also notice in the pictures that the Lexicon has the ribbon in the top left of the unit running almost perpendicular to the board it connects to, whereas the HK has the ribbon going downwards and to the left. All that I have just described can lead to only one conclusion; a difference in the topology of the boards being used in the units. This can only mean that Lexicon and HK are not the same things, and in your example of the RV-5 and the HK-745, they are completely different. There is no reason for someone or some company to redesign a board to make it function exactly the same, especially if you are trying to make the enormous undeserving profits that you so claim. Companies that share the same mother company do not use different looking, differently structured yet identically functioning parts. It is something that just does not happen. Now that you have been shown up please go away and stop trolling here.[/quote] Simple lets have a look. http://www.lexicon.com/image_library/RV5_rear_lo.jpg http://www.harmankardon.com/back.aspx?prod=AVR%20745&cat=REC&sType=C&Region=USA& Country=US&Language=ENG&ImgName=AVR745B.jpg First off those "black" things are not processors or chips they look like simple pads to prevent the top cover from touching the boards. In the rear pictures that I posted you can see why there are small "re arranged" differences in that section. The RS-232, triggers, and video multi out are moved to another location on the lexicon. |
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 22 Registered: Jan-08 | Its kind of funny how you would point that out yet the analog/processing board is exactly the same as the HK. |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2469 Registered: May-05 | You're absolutely right Bob. Its the SAME EXACT UNIT!!! Its been a conspiracy on our part the whole time. We were just testing you, and you passed with flying colors. Now can we move on? |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9767 Registered: Dec-04 | It's like deja vue all over again. |
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 23 Registered: Jan-08 | [quote]It's like deja vue all over again.[/quote] No its just that both threads were mixed up. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12258 Registered: May-04 | . No, it's that you started a second thread for no good reason. BS, no one here agrees with you. If you insist these products are the same, please, go peddle this idea somewhere else. |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1828 Registered: Nov-05 | Bob, you're the same as Jan. Okay, your facade may be a little different, but the inner design is similar and though Jan sure has the more stable power supply, you are the same person. Different people made you both obviously but all under the same holding company so you are exactly the same person as Jan. Aren't you Bob? |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9772 Registered: Dec-04 | OK there's an analogy that I never considered. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12260 Registered: May-04 | . There's an analogy I resent. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12261 Registered: May-04 | . BS reminds me of wiley. They might be the same person if wiley was taking his meds. |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1830 Registered: Nov-05 | There's an analogy I resent. I figured he might too - enough to see the error of his ways. We live in hope. |
|
Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2712 Registered: Sep-04 | I just wonder what Bob's motivation is with this. I realise he's saying we're all being ripped off by highly priced kit but when we point out the differences he comes up with another example and go through the motions again. So what's the deal here Bob? |
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 24 Registered: Jan-08 | [quote]No, it's that you started a second thread for no good reason.[/quote] No, this thread is different and deals with the RV-5. [quote]I just wonder what Bob's motivation is with this. I realise he's saying we're all being ripped off by highly priced kit but when we point out the differences he comes up with another example and go through the motions again. So what's the deal here Bob?[/quote] I showed you the "different" position of certain aspects by the pictures of the back pannels but the processing/analog section of the units is exact. |
|
Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1813 Registered: Oct-04 | You know, George Clooney & I both have two eyes & a nose in approximately the same place...makes you think aye? We might be twins separated at birth? |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9783 Registered: Dec-04 | I always thought that there was a resemblence, CM. But you weigh more. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12267 Registered: May-04 | . DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS! Under threat of this thread continuing. . |
|
Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1814 Registered: Oct-04 | I have big bones. |
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 25 Registered: Jan-08 | So you all agree that the analog pre amp and processing sections are the same? |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12273 Registered: May-04 | . DO NOT FEED THE TROLL |
|
Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1226 Registered: Nov-04 | Sorry Jan, that would be my fault. I gave the troll a double cheese burger when I should have left it to find food elsewhere. I don't think agreeing with the troll will solve our problem here. I think if we ignore him we will get rid of him. Think of him as Wiley with a cause. We could even try discussing about him and not to him. Maybe that will frustrate him enough to make him leave. |
|
Silver Member Username: ShawnharmanPost Number: 165 Registered: Dec-05 | mmmmmmmmmmm double cheeseburger |
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 26 Registered: Jan-08 | [quote]I don't think agreeing with the troll will solve our problem here.[/quote] There is nothing to agree or disagree about since both units run the exact same analog pre amp section and processing boards. I have proven my side yet no one has come up with ANYTHING to state why the lexicon would sound better. |
|
Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1816 Registered: Oct-04 | HERE'S SOMETHING YOU FCUKING GENIUS, THE TWO FCUKING POWER SUPPLIES ARE DIFFERENT FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME! ...sorry Jan. |
|
Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1227 Registered: Nov-04 | Come on Chris M! Bob needs to find his food on his own. Should we give him another cheese burger? I know Shawn likes them. What do you say Bob? You want bacon on this one? How about some mushrooms? We should have a President's day BBQ with all the cheese burgers that Bob can eat. |
|
Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2484 Registered: May-05 | Chris M, Power supplies are insignificant. They only supply power. I thought you were smarter than that.  |
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 27 Registered: Jan-08 | [quote]HERE'S SOMETHING YOU FCUKING GENIUS, THE TWO FCUKING POWER SUPPLIES ARE DIFFERENT FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME![/quote] And? Where is this going to make a difference? The power amps still have the same rating and THD spec. So please tell me where and how? |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6275 Registered: Feb-05 | Better yet figure it out on your own Bob and come back when you do.....we should be rid of forever now! |
|
Silver Member Username: JawPost Number: 185 Registered: Mar-06 | i am in purgatory thy name is this thread |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6278 Registered: Feb-05 | Oh it's not that bad...kind of funny actually...that is unless you are actually taking Bob seriously which I'm not and I don't think he is either. |
|
Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1817 Registered: Oct-04 | ...must feed troll...must feed troll... From http://www.rocketroberts.com/techart/amp.htm "Do two amplifiers with identical THD ratings sound the same, everything else being equal? Not necessarily (but differences will be subtle). The reason is that the THD specification states nothing about where the harmonics are in the frequency band. For example one amplifier could have a dominant harmonic at one frequency and a second amplifier could have a dominant harmonic at a very different frequency. Or, one amplifier could have a few "big" harmonics while a second has many weak ones. These situations could easily result in identical THD ratings." Now can we please stop this nonsense and move on to something simple like stem cell research or the war in Iraq. |
|
Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1230 Registered: Nov-04 | Hey Molloy, so whats your view on the war in Iraq since we can't settle the war at Harman International? You don't have to answer that Molloy. I would rather tease Bob then get into a possible pissing contest in the forum about controversial and potentially blood boiling OT issues. |
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 28 Registered: Jan-08 | [quote]Better yet figure it out on your own Bob and come back when you do.....we should be rid of forever now![/quote] A comment from someone who obviously understands nothing. [quote]Now can we please stop this nonsense and move on to something simple like stem cell research or the war in Iraq.[/quote] Ah that article you post offers nothing as for defence since both amps we are talking about are the same except for different power supplies. "Power Supply: The primary purpose of a power supply in a power amplifier is to take the 120 VAC power from the outlet and convert it to a DC voltage (VAC is an abbreviation for Volts Alternating Current, and DC is an abbreviation for Direct Current). Conversion from AC to DC is necessary because the semiconductor devices (transistors, FETs, MOSFETs, etc.) used inside the equipment require this type of voltage. (By the way, FET stands for Field Effect Transistor, and MOSFET stands for Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistor). Many different types of power supplies are used in power amplifiers, but in the end they all basically aim to generate DC voltage for the transistor circuits of the unit." So where is this "superior" DC voltage going to make a difference? |
|
Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1818 Registered: Oct-04 | "Ah that article you post offers nothing as for defence since both amps we are talking about are the same except for different power supplies." Do you even realize what a foolish statement that is? |
|
Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2724 Registered: Sep-04 | Oh dear Bob. I note that you never answered my original question, the one that asked what your motivation is for this thread. Now on the subject of the power supply, the sole purpose of a power supply is to supply the appropriate electricity to the various parts of the unit. This is true. However, it seems that how the power supply does this, the specification of the power supply and the points within which the power supply delivers the juice seems to have an effect on the sound of the unit more far-reaching than one would expect. This is why so many higher-end units have severely over-specified power supplies. The power supply feeds all parts of the unit too of course, the processor portion as well as the power amp section. I have dealt with receivers in the past from NAD and Arcam (AVR200) which were based on the same mule. The innards were identical apart from the power supply section. Although the two units had similarities in their presentation, there were significant differences as well, and the Arcam was appreciably better than the NAD, as well as appreciably more costly. The other place where things make a difference in the case of AV receivers is the software. In my example above, the software used to control and drive these units was obviously different. NAD had theirs and Arcam had theirs. Although all the silicon may be the same, a lot of the software is different and this affects how the silicon in the unit is used - and ultimately how it sounds. Regards, Frank. |
|
Bronze Member Username: AsahikaseiPost Number: 29 Registered: Jan-08 | [quote]Do you even realize what a foolish statement that is?[/quote] Simple, if both amp sections are the exact same and one has a different power supply you would think that would change the power output or THD specs, but nothing changes. [quote]I note that you never answered my original question, the one that asked what your motivation is for this thread.[/quote] I am here to find out the truth on how a high end processor can sound "better", but after buying a Mcintosh MX135 and demoing it against other units it is in no way supperior. I ask questions on how any why yet NO one has given me any type of proof or a basic answer. Its all he said she said which is typical of the high end. [quote]Now on the subject of the power supply, the sole purpose of a power supply is to supply the appropriate electricity to the various parts of the unit. This is true. However, it seems that how the power supply does this, the specification of the power supply and the points within which the power supply delivers the juice seems to have an effect on the sound of the unit more far-reaching than one would expect. This is why so many higher-end units have severely over-specified power supplies.[/quote] Then one would have to measure the DC output of these power supplies to see the specs. Can a power supply make a difference, I don't think so since the power supply can either deliver the amount of DC power to the supplied equipment or not and having a power supply that can put out more then what is needed would be a waste. But in these two receivers obviously it did not make any type of difference. [quote]The power supply feeds all parts of the unit too of course, the processor portion as well as the power amp section.[/quote] And? A processor will either have enough power to open and close its transistors or it won't. [quote]The other place where things make a difference in the case of AV receivers is the software. In my example above, the software used to control and drive these units was obviously different. NAD had theirs and Arcam had theirs. Although all the silicon may be the same, a lot of the software is different and this affects how the silicon in the unit is used - and ultimately how it sounds.[/quote] As I said before the software does not change and you can not change the software for decoding a DD or DTS signal. |
|
New member Username: Rti_installerBothell, Washington Post Number: 1 Registered: Feb-08 | Sorry guys but Bob is at least half right, the HK is actually a rebadged Lexicon RV5 with some downgraded parts. How do i know, I am a Lexicon dealer |
|
New member Username: Rti_installerBothell, Washington Post Number: 2 Registered: Feb-08 | I dont know why everyone finds this so hard to imagine anyway. HK / Lexicon, Its all Harmon International now anyway |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6319 Registered: Feb-05 | For me David the issue is....who really gives a shite. It doesn't change my life one way or another. |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6320 Registered: Feb-05 | BTW David did you even read what you said...."with some downgraded parts"....I belive that is what the others were pointing out... |
|
Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1820 Registered: Oct-04 | David, Please answer these questions: Do they sound identical? Why? Which do you prefer? Why? What accounts for the weight difference? |
|
New member Username: Rti_installerBothell, Washington Post Number: 3 Registered: Feb-08 | I am with you art, doesn't really change my life either and I really don't care. Frankly, HK sounds a little better than say for instance Denon, but of all the products I sell, I am not really a big HK fan anyway, from an integration stand point, the product line is a poor choice. The lexicon sounds better by a pinch. The reason it weighs less is because the power supply although it is better quality is acutely lighter. One of the most important and exspensive parts in any Hi End piece of gear is the power supply, it also has a dramatic effect on the sound quality. I personaly would not buy either product. |
|
Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1823 Registered: Oct-04 | David, if the HK product line is "a poor choice", then why carry it at all? How do you sell it in good conscious? "One of the most important and expensive parts in any Hi End piece of gear is the power supply, it also has a dramatic effect on the sound quality" Isn't that the exact point that Bob can't seem to get through his thick head? |
|
Silver Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 682 Registered: Dec-06 | what did he say? And that web page....good lord. |
|
New member Username: Rti_installerBothell, Washington Post Number: 4 Registered: Feb-08 | I don't generally recommend HK to my customers, that does not mean this is a bad product line, I can get it anytime I want from the HK distribution warehouse, but I do not usually keep the product line on my shelves. Some people like HK, sonically it sounds good but it's just not my fav. Not to be on anyone's case, or rock any boats, but power supply's are like engines in exotic sports cars, small changes in them have a dramatic impact on the performance. I have known and do know a few amplifier designers personally, & have even had the chance to swap around different supply transformers to see what they sound like. In some instances the audible change is very dramatic. Some have a more detailed sound but have a week bottom; others have a punchier feel but are a bit thin & edgy in the top end. Some designers us a lot of capacitance in their designs and use a smaller transformer which works great for dealing with transients, but it always sounds like the bottom end is week in these designs. Anyway, Its really an art form how these amp designers choose the parts for their supplies |
|
New member Username: Rti_installerBothell, Washington Post Number: 5 Registered: Feb-08 | I just spoke with my buddy over at Lexicon service, And he wanted to make sure everyone understood that even though Lexicon was able to cut some costs by sharing a few of the same circuit boards and chassis layout with the Harmon sister product the HK 745, it really is a different animal, besides having a vastly better supply, there are a few processor boards that you can not see in the pictures deeper inside that have been changed for the RV-5 the most notable difference is that the software is completely different. This product like all Lexicon stuff is audiophile grade. The HK is not. I do know personally that the RV-5 does sound better than the HK. The unit started out as Lexicon and remains lexicon, not HK. The HK on the other hand benifits some what from the Lexicon orginal, although, to what extent I am not entirly sure. |
|
Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1824 Registered: Oct-04 | So other than the hidden processor boards, the different power supplies, the different software, and numerous different i/o, not to mention that they sound different in your estimation, they're exactly the same, right? Gee Bob, I guess your were right after all. |
|
New member Username: Rti_installerBothell, Washington Post Number: 6 Registered: Feb-08 | "So other than the hidden processor boards, the different power supplies, the different software, and numerous different i/o, not to mention that they sound different in your estimation, they're exactly the same, right? Gee Bob, I guess your were right after all." Like I said, Bob was at least half right |
|
Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1234 Registered: Nov-04 | It looks like Bob can no longer beg for troll food here. But he always has the obvious "well you have no personal knowledge like I do David, you have no personal relationship with someone at Lexicon, I have vague proof from Lexicon owners....blah blah". At least it was fun while he was here. |
|
Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1825 Registered: Oct-04 | "Like I said, Bob was at least half right" In this case, it's sort of like being half pregnant. |
|
Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1211 Registered: Jun-07 | David U seem like a smart guy, stick around. As for Bob....ahhh not so much. David, what products are you fond of? Just curious. |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics