Old Onkyo vs. New Onkyo
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New member Username: Gregs69rsWinston Salem, NC Post Number: 1 Registered: Dec-07 | Hi, first timer here so forgive my ignorance. I am getting interested in home audio again since I finally broke down and bought a big screen TV with HD. I have had an Onkyo TX-S515 Pro since 1991 and have been very happy with it. I researched new receivers in the $300 range once I got the new TV thinking it's time to upgrade. The TX-S515 is only Pro Logic (not II or digital). I also wanted more power than the 80W rated Onkyo. I ended up purchasing a Yamaha RX-V461 with 100W per channel and 5.1 sound based on internet reviews. Boy was I dissapointed when I hooked it up. Playing CDs my Onkyo has a MUCH better sound in my opinion and the Yamaha was even connected with a digital audio cable. So I returned the Yamaha and am looking at the Onkyo TX-S505 and the TX-S575. Will it sound significantly better then my old reliable 515 Pro? Does it take a movie to notice the difference or will music CDs sound better as well? Any thoughts on a receiver in the $300-400 price range? Thanks! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11990 Registered: May-04 | . Please explain why you want more than 80 watts. Will a new Onkyo sound "significantly better" than your old Onkyo? Consider the old Onkyo had no component video switching, let alone video enhancement or HDMI inputs or outputs, no 1080p upconversion, nothing more than Pro Logic and a few bad fake surround formats which meant only four amplifier channels not 7.1, no LFE output, no digital or optical connections, no iPod connection, no automatic Audysssey EQ set up with an included microphone, and no XM or Sirius radio. And the 575 sells for about the same money as your old receiver. How do you think they did that? . |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 961 Registered: Jun-07 | Greg Jan's right. For one, your old Onkyo is probably closer to a realistic 80 watts per channel then the Yamaha is. A Yamaha rated at 100 watts will only be about 60 watts when its powering all the channels. You shouldn't need more than 80 watts unless your speakers are a load and a half. Your old Onkyo will sound better IMO unless you spend over 1200.00 on a new one. To get a A/V receiver that sounds good, both in surround and decent in music, with all that crap their putting in them now, minimum a Grand. IMO. A 300-400 dollar A/V receiver wont touch your old Onkyo in SQ. |
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New member Username: Gregs69rsWinston Salem, NC Post Number: 2 Registered: Dec-07 | Thanks for the responses! That's just what I needed. Jan, that is a fair question and I don't have a good answer for it. What I really want is deep rich bass (and sometimes pounding when I am "rocking out" :-) ). What I don't really know is if that is what more watts will give me. In other words, which statement is true: 1) More watts plays louder but with the same "sound" or 2) More watts will hit better bass and deliver a richer sound at all volume levels. I thought I wanted more power if number 2 is true. I also assumed that all brands would deliver the same type of sound in terms of bass response, etc. as other brands with similar specs using the same music. After the Yamaha experience I am wondering if different brands of equipment have their own unique sound. If so, then I really like the Onkyo sound. My speakers have a 90 db sensitivity so they are not too bad. What I am fighting for the last 13 years is poor acoustics in my listening area. The room is about 13 x 20 but it has an 18 foot vaulted ceiling!!!! It's a challenge to fill all of that space with bass. Currently I have the Onkyo with Sony SSF7000 front speakers and a JBL 12" 120W powered sub from 1996. Sorry for all of the questions but I am starving for info and this is the first place I have found with great info! |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 963 Registered: Jun-07 | Perhaps upgrading away from the Sony brand speakers would help you a lot. What is your source Greg? Cd player? Dvd Player? What are you playing your music on? |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 964 Registered: Jun-07 | And yes, every brand has their own sound, and Sony is known to be lacking in that area. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11996 Registered: May-04 | . More watts will play louder. Up to a point and it takes a lot more watts to actually sound louder. You'll have to double the wattage while the quality of the amplifier remains constant to achieve a +3dB increase in overall volume. That would matter if you're running the system at max SPL all the time. As is, when you double the power you are gaining the ability to have peaks three dB louder. The actual average level doesn't change much at all. When someone wants more power to play louder they usually mean they want the system to play twice as loud as it currently can. "Twice as loud" amounts to an increase of roughly ten times as much power. You should be looking at an 800 watt amplifier. I doubt your Sony's will deal well with that much power. If everything else remains the same regarding quality of the amplifier, more watts will not "hit harder" than lower watts. There are quite a few factors which determine how the bass response of a system sounds, but just adding watts isn't really one of them until you are either changing the quality of the watts or adding enormous amounts of wattage to gain higher current delivery. From what you describe I think you really need an upgrade in your entire system. What you have sounds like a reasonably low priced affair from ten years ago. The Sony's and JBL can easily be bettered by new equipment for not that much money. Set a budget and stop by a real dealer not a Best Buy. As far as new receivers go, the new Onkyo's are getting some good reviews . I guess all things are relative when you say they got a "good" review. Whether they sound better or worse than your old receiver is something you'll have to decide. Some receiver companies are more focussed on sound quality and some prefer to invest in features. Some features are worth owning and some just fill the front panel and remote. Dolby Digital is a significant upgrade from Pro Logic and would make a new receiver worth the investment. Quite a few of the features on the new HT receivers are what I consider useless but they come with the product. The set up feature on the new Onkyo's could be useful. Some members prefer a very good two channel for HT use. System and speaker set up go a long way toward better sound. If you haven't done anything other than plop your speakers and subwoofer down where they fit, then you might benefit from some setup work. Place "loudspeaker set up/placement" in a search engine and try a few new locations for your speakers. Do the same with the subwoofer by checking "subwoofer set up". Go out and listen to a few good set ups and then make some decisions. I would say it's time to do a major upgrade. . |
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New member Username: Gregs69rsWinston Salem, NC Post Number: 3 Registered: Dec-07 | Thanks again for the informative responses! Nick, my source is a Panasonic combo VCR DVD player and burner. The primary reason I bought it last year was to burn DVDs of my 8 years worth of home movies of the kids, not listening to CDs. Am I sacrificing SQ here? A Blue Ray player is in the future but I'm hoping I can get by with this one for now. As for speakers, I think you would be pleasantly surprised if you heard the Sonys. I know their historical reputation for speakers is marginal at best but they have really hit something with this new model. I just got these last month and am very pleased with them. Consumer Reports ranked them second only to the Bose 901 in overall accuracy of sound reproduction. At 1/5th the price of the Bose I figured, what the heck and tried them. To my somewhat surprise, they sound great. Jan, is video upconversion one of those features you think are fluff or is it good to have that? It looks like it adds about $100 to the price in the Onkyo line and I wondered if it's really worth it. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 967 Registered: Jun-07 | "Nick, my source is a Panasonic combo VCR DVD player and burner. The primary reason I bought it last year was to burn DVDs of my 8 years worth of home movies of the kids, not listening to CDs. Am I sacrificing SQ here? A Blue Ray player is in the future but I'm hoping I can get by with this one for now." YES, and YES!! Not very good for movies and horrible for music. A Blu Ray player would be a huge upgrade in the movie department obviously, for video and sound quality. I have not came across a blu ray player that does any justice to music though. For Music you will want a separate cd player. "As for speakers, I think you would be pleasantly surprised if you heard the Sonys" Heard them, not by choice, their horrible. No offense, I am just being honest with you. "Consumer Reports ranked them second only to the Bose 901 in overall accuracy of sound reproduction" The Bose 901's, for the money, are probably the worse speaker any company has ever put on the market. They are horrible. They sound like a big plastic bucket with a big rock rolling around inside of it. Consumer reports do not deal with mid-fi or high-fi gear. The number one rated Consumer report A/V receiver at the moment is the entry level Yamaha. I rest my case. Number two is a Sony, again, brutal. Greg, I don't mean to sound rude, I am just giving you my honest opinion. If I were you, I would take Jan's advice, and start a full system makeover. Upgrading one single piece of equipment will help, but would not give you a system that you will be happy with. In order for you to reach a level of musicality and synergy within your room that your going to be happy with, your going to have to buy everything new. Source, Speakers, Sub, Receiver. Come up with a budget, and let us know. Cheers. |
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New member Username: Gregs69rsWinston Salem, NC Post Number: 4 Registered: Dec-07 | Nick, I appreciate the brutal honesty and am certainly not offended by it. As a newcomer to the hobby you have to take your licks. If I threw away $250 on speakers then I can only hope that's the worst thing that ever happens to me.  As I begin shopping, what are some name brands for speakers and receivers that I should be looking at? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11998 Registered: May-04 | . I would consider video upconversion to be all but worthless on a receiver. You'll almost always do better in the quality department to run your video sources directly to the video monitor. It's almost impossible today to not find someone who sells a HT receiver by selling the faceplate, the back panel connections and the remote. However, if I were shopping for a top notch HT receievr, I'd walk away from anything the salesperson doesn't sell on sound quality without being asked about sound quality. If you can afford it, check out the Outlaw line; they don't have a HT receiver available right now as far as I know but get an idea how a good sounding HT receiver is sold. If you want a better sounding receiver with fewer geegaws, the HK line is typically worth considering. So far the only thing we know you want in sound quality is bass that "hits hard". For that you need a good subwoofer. Check out the Hsu line. The Sony's might survive with a better subwoofer but you can do better than the Sony's. I would tell you to find a dealer for PSB, NHT, Paradigm, Monitor Audio, Wharfedale, Tannoy or other manufacturers you'll find mentioned in the "speakers" section of the forum. . |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 969 Registered: Jun-07 | "I would consider video upconversion to be all but worthless on a receiver" Totally agree, upconversion is a marketing scheme. The source material can only look as good as the resolution it was originally recorded in. "However, if I were shopping for a top notch HT receievr, I'd walk away from anything the salesperson doesn't sell on sound quality without being asked about sound quality" Again, I totally agree. The first thing you should shop for in a A/V receiver is sound quality. If you need a certain feature, or connection, then you buy a great sounding A/V receiver with those options. A/V receivers to consider in your price range: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/1070.html http://nadelectronics.com/products/av-receivers/T744-A/V-Receiver Cambridge Audio, H/K and Rotel. All 5, sound totally different, some will be for you, some wont. Try to listen to as many as you can.Cheers. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 970 Registered: Jun-07 | Greg- "If I threw away $250 on speakers then I can only hope that's the worst thing that ever happens to me. " Ive been there bud. My first system was sony towers, sony center channel, sony rears, and a sony A/V receiver. We have all been there at one time or another. This is where it can start to become fun for you. |
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Bronze Member Username: KbearPost Number: 41 Registered: Dec-06 | Not to hijack this thread, but I'm curious how Jan (or anyone else for that matter) would comment on the following brands of receiver in terms of sound quality. These are typically the entry level hi-fi receiver brands that get discussed on the various forums. Marantz Denon H/K Pioneer Elite Onkyo I see you don't mind H/K Jan, would any of the others be at least as good in your opinion? I think speakers are tougher - there is so much more available. I had the most success by finding what brands are out there, then going to the various company websites and searching their dealers link for stores that carry their products. That is how I was able to find the many otherwise obscure audio shops in my area. From there you choose a bunch and stop by to audition some gear. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 971 Registered: Jun-07 | As Jan stated, it looks like the Outlaw 1070 is not available at the moment. Looks like they are coming up with a replacement for it though. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 972 Registered: Jun-07 | Dan-All the ones you listed are fairly close. Its all about preference though. To my ears, I like the H/K and Onkyo the best out of them. Also consider the entry level stuff from Cambridge Audio, Outlaw and NAD. My friend who had a H/K 645 just brought home the NAD T744 and claims he likes the NAD much better. Thats just his opinion though. As yours may be the for the H/K or the Elite? Go listen is what i'm trying to tell you.lol. |
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Bronze Member Username: KbearPost Number: 42 Registered: Dec-06 | Hey Nick, I've already been listening a fair bit. Heard mostly Marantz as that seems to be what most of the stores in my area stock. I tend to favour Marantz and Cambridge. Didn't care as much for Yamaha. Denon sounded okay - but then again I heard Marantz with PSB and Cambridge with Monitor Audio. Yamaha and Denon I heard with Energy. So how do you make an accurate comparison? The only ones I did a head to head on were the Denon and Yamaha, and I preferred the Denon. I haven't heard Pioneer, Onkyo, or NAD. I think what Greg might discover, like I did, it that it's hard to audition every possible combo. You'll find certain speakers you like, but they may be carried by only two or three dealers, who between them do not carry all the brands of receiver. So you either go with what you like that you can hear, or take the chance on a receiver you haven't heard. But I think that's the way you have to do it. Speakers first, as I think they impact the sound most, then go from there and choose the receiver that best complements that sound. I guess it may not matter what you pick first as long as the focus is on proper matching. Auditioning was fun for me. One dealer really took the time to let me listen. Even brewed some coffee for me while I did so and had a proper set up in terms of position speakers in front of the listener while seated in a leather recliner, tweeters at ear level in a quiet room. That's the kind of service you're not likely to get at a big box store! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12000 Registered: May-04 | . I've always liked HK amplifiers (not so hot on the rest of the line for the past couple decades) but haven't heard their recent products. Pioneer Elite is mostly just rebadged Pioneer wih gold plated connectors, just like Sony ES. However, I really don't keep up with receiver lines that change every year. You've obviously seen this thread; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/431447.html . |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 973 Registered: Jun-07 | LOL that is service Dan. Good to hear your out there listening. And it is hard sometimes to go to stores and hear the same speakers with different receivers and such. What I like to do myself, is buy the gear, and bring it home for the audition. The winner stays, the losers get returned. I know this isn't possible for everyone to do, based on budget and time, so I know what you mean. My first step was finding a dealer that I liked, and could trust. Wasn't hard for me. If my dealer doesn't sell it, I don't buy it. Luckily for me my dealer has products I am interested in. When I bought my Rega Apollo, I brought home an Arcam as well, so I had the three cd players to compare in my system. The Rega, Arcam and NAD. Now to make sure I was buying the right player, I was looking for the one that sounded the best with my equipment, but also the best with other equipment. I have owned NAD for some time, and like the sound of NAD, but I didn't want to compared the cd players just based on characteristics I already knew my system had. My dealer lent me an old Bryston power amp and a C372 NAD integrated amp to play around with. Anyway, I came away with the Rega after auditioning them every night for a week. But basically my story just goes to show how a great dealer can be so helpful with making a purchase much more accurate on what we are trying to accomplish. Sounds like the guy who made you a coffee would be a great dealer to have. I havn't heard Marantz stuff in a while, but it sounded ok. I heard it with Paradigm Studio series. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 974 Registered: Jun-07 | Crossed posts..lol.. Dan you should read that thread Jan posted, he provides excellent info in it. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 975 Registered: Jun-07 | Nevermind, see you already read it, and posted. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1011 Registered: May-06 | Going back up the post a bit to "more watts" and my apologies in advance to being late to the dance. I am playing some Jazz, Spyro Gyra, at less than .3 watts on my system (click on my name to see my set-up). It is loud enough to really enjoy, too loud if someone was in the room with me to converse. I could actually lower it to the milliwatt levels and still enjoy it. 3 watts on my system is loud. 30 watts on my system is critical listening loud. (By that I mean if you had planned on thinking about or doing something else while you were listening, forget about it.) 300 watts on my system is typically enjoying the "live" experience of Zeppelin, Tool, or Rush. OK, I admit I overlooked my sub-amp which will carry the lower bass down to ~20Hz. Greg, you do not have to buy new. Most real audio dealers have used, consignment, and demo gear for sale. Check out Audiogon for example. I would suggest Craigslist but most of the stuff there is similar to where you are trying to grow out of. You can demo your as$ off, it will always sound different in your home with your set-up. Often much better BTW as most auditions are not as clean as Dan's. Still I would suggest that what Dan heard during that audition might just sound better if he was able to put up his card and take the gear home for test run. Last but not least, buy a CD player first and foremost!!! |
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