The Accuracy of past Advise and the Ecoustics Archive.
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Bronze Member Username: SuspecterrainPost Number: 15 Registered: Jun-04 | Nearly four years ago i posted a query about my Vintage Pioneer SX-727. J. Vigne informed me (and John_A seconded) that my (then) 30-year old unit was simply dying of old age and i should thank my lucky stars that it lasted as long as it did. The thread appears here: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/51433.html I susequently bought another SX-727 as it suits my needs quite well and i've continued to investigate strategies so that this unit doesn't meet the same fate as the last. A member from http://audiokarma.org/ happened upon my Ecoustics thread and began a discussion at Audiokarma to illustrate the extent of erroneous advise on vintage equipment. The discussion suggests that repairs (and preventative measures) on this unit are established practice and very affordable, and can be seen here: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21244 I would like to extend an offer to both J. Vigne or John_A (et al) to address this fundemental issue of maintaining serviceable equipment and the wisdom and requisite expertise therein. I'd also like to comment that it seems unreasonable that my orignal Ecoustics thread is locked and cannot be added to -- THAT is where this discussion would be most appropriate. . |
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Bronze Member Username: SuspecterrainPost Number: 16 Registered: Jun-04 | Rather, Advice |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5853 Registered: Feb-05 | Have you asked the Admin to make it available again. This forum is not as informed relative to vintage gear as AK. Not to mention the folks here tend to have higher end gear as a mean than at AK. Not to say that AK doesn't have it's high end forum after all the Mac group is very active. Finally AK is very much more vital and active than is ecoustics. More members with more posts, I know I am a member at both and visit both daily. I have also take to using vintage gear. I am listening to a 30+ year old Sansui receiver as I type this, it's having no trouble driving my 4 ohnm B&W 610i's. The old stuff is underrated and is very inexpensive to maintain. Just my 2 cents. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5854 Registered: Feb-05 | Let me correct one of my statements...I believe that ecoustics members have NEWER gear as a mean than the AKers.....which is higher end(?)...that's up to the listener. |
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Silver Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 176 Registered: Aug-06 | Suspect...you need to let things go once in a while...you seemed pretty ticked in that other forum thread. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2379 Registered: May-05 | Why bother coming back? We're "...just a bunch of empty-headed fanboy's justifying their lavish AV expenditures." Go have sex with yourself. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuspecterrainPost Number: 18 Registered: Jun-04 | Art - thanks. Yes, AK may be a more appropriate place to evaluate older gear - but shouldn't and well-rounded expert know when they might not be the best guy answering a question? Even Rumsfeld knows about "known unknowns". Marc - yeah, maybe i am a bit flexed. Consummerism is all about trying pry more dollars out of my pocket on more things i don't need. But yeah, you're right. Stu - Obviously, my original question was better suited for another forum -- it even begins "This might not be the best place to post this thread...". So i might suggest that you consider the entire picture as that's what truely advances knowledge and understanding, and is precisely what i am endeavoring to accomplish. To simply leave without addressing these core issues only further buttresses nepatistic underpinniings and ideologs. Besides, i doubt one little skirmish will send me packing -- i've been a regular reader of this site for almost 4 years. The fanboy comment you take umbrage with is little more than than sauce for the goose. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1665 Registered: Oct-04 | "as i'd really like to give the idiot with the crap advise a real piece of my mind - or better yet, a swift kick in the pants!" "Well, i did pitch that unit (after I striped it of assorted parts) and subsequently bought another SX-727." Am I missing something, or did you wind up doing exactly what Jan said? Why are you trying to pick a fight after all this time? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11964 Registered: May-04 | . "i'd really like to give the idiot with the crap advise a real piece of my mind - or better yet, a swift kick in the pants!" OK, suspect, you have my attention. Give me a piece of your mind. If you'd prefer the latter, my address is in the Dallas telephone directory. But let's go over a few things first. I notice this AK thread, like the ecoustics thread, began almost four years ago. Then you restarted the Ak thread yesterday; is that right, suspect? Good grief! And why are you so upset about the original ecoustics thread being closed? Has this been eating at you all this time? You say "repairs (and preventative measures) on this unit are established practice and very affordable." Very affordable? Let's read on. From the AK members: "'F' it, let em' wallow in their stupidity." Makes us AK members appricate this group that much more after reading articles like that since we love our vintage gear rather then most folks off the street." Indeed they do. Vintage is the heart of that forum. What qualifies as "vintage" and what amounts to junk becomes is a thin line dividing what one person sees and another doesn't. I've seen people spend money and enormous amounts of time repairing stuff most people wouldn't want to own. A Pioneer SX-727 is not a Willie Mays baseball card, suspect. ">just tagged a model SX-828 (same year, flagship model) for a cool $30 on ebay -- know (original spelling) i'll be flexing 60 watts per channel! That is, if the thing isn't DOA. (current emphasis) $30+30 shipping arn't bad if it works. Doubt he can get anybody to fix the old one for less." I'd agree with that assessment. However, I wish those guys could spell. "what a bunch of bullshite" "Hey dude, you've miss-spelled " Bullshit " And he misspelled "miss-spelled". By quite a bit actually. We're dealing with the cream of the Audio Karma crop here. "Guess I should tell the next person who brings me a vintage receiver to $hit can it because of a few dead caps." I don't believe your receiver had just a few blown caps as I stated in my reply to your original post made almost four years ago. No one can tell until they get the unit on a test bench, which would have cost you money - if you could find the guy who would have done the job. Apparently, you didn't look. You could have shipped it to someone at that suggested $30 shipping each way. If you had looked. But you didn't. Add $60 to your repair cost. None the less, this guy didn't offer to repair your receiver; did he? Big help he is. Talk's cheap. Repairs cost money. "Flood me with 70's vintage gear verus today's A/V plastic throw aways." Sorry, while I agree today's throw aways aren't worth having either I would not care to be waste deep in "vintage" 1970's crap. Crap is crap no matter how old. A spare McIntosh amplifier or two I would be happy to take off your hands. But, the value of "vintage" is in the person considering the investment. It is a judgement call and an opinion and we don't all share the same opinions. Do we? "Something that pisses me off is the way manufacturers are throwing around wattage figures any more. they will stamp 500 watts on the box in 4 inch print. Then define what it all means in print you almost need a magnifying see if at all. Then top it all off with p*ss poor build quality. And people wonder why some just want to keep their old equipment. Duh.. "Gee Wiz I just can't imagine why"." Yeah, that really gets me too! Four inch letters!!! Now that's a reason to hold on to old crap. The cream o' the crop, like I said. "...Looks like i should get the "caps" replaced, right off, eh? What should i expect to pay, $100? Any other thoughts?" "I little digging around found an associated thread that puts the number at a couple hundred bucks - now if i can just find a reputable shoppe to take my unit to... http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=140017" Let's stop for a moment to take a look at the advice provided by the AK members in that linked thread. "SX 727 Overhaul Cost? As some of you may know, I have (with lots of help, thanks guys) been tinkering around with my sx 727 which has a slight left channel in/out problem. The unit is pretty old and I figure in the not to distant future I'd like to get the whole thing completely reconditioned. Any ides on how much that would cost? thanks "that depends on your definition of recondition. If you're going to pay a tech to completely recap the thing and make any improvements they deem necessary, you're looking at 500 dollars for 8-10 hours of labor. Most places will stray from even wanting to take on the project because it will steal time away from other customer receivers that need to get done as well. Usually in a case where a customer requests a recondition, I will suggest needed repairs and then look at points of the receiver that yields the best performance for the money. For example I would probably suggest recapping the preamp, regulated power supply, and phono board. Perhaps a slight RF/IF touch-up alignment on the tuner. This takes significantly less time and yields excellent results. This is especially true if the receiver in question is the age of your 727. Then you are probably only going to have to pay 225-300. I personally would just have the amp problem fixed and listen to it for awhile. Make sure its a receiver you really like and feel its worth sinking the money into." "I think Alan wants to send it to a tech. Recapping is not the cure all solution for receiver troubles, and I believe it to be a waste of time unless the rest of the receiver is working right to begin with. The best way to go about fixing a problem is properly troubleshooting, then repairing the problem effecting the receiver. Then go about making improvements once you decide the unit is likable and reliable enough for regular use. Its better than dumping money into a piece of equipment that has a problem recapping won't solve and then having to take it to the tech anyways than just having it done right the first time." I think this group of AK members are saying not everything old is worth fixing. Are you reading something different, suspect? Are you ignoring the projected cost to be in the range of $225-300? How about the possible $500? No one can tell until they look at the receiver. You didn't get anyone to look and now you want to blame me. Sheesh!!! Anyone care to tell suspect what he could buy for under $500 that would beat the pants off the thirty year old Pioneer? And have a warranty? And still not have a lot of thirty year old parts left in it? "Looks like i should get the "caps" replaced, right off, eh? "Come on over to the Pioneer forum, and tell us what is wrong with your currently sick unit!! If you do the labor yourself, I would (just off the top of my head) expect that you could get the caps for under 20 bucks, maybe even shipped for that. Usually to get a receiver back from the ravages of old age, the contacts are cleaned with deoxit, the pots are deoxited and faderlubed, and the electrolytic caps replaced. Sometimes remounting the power transistors with fresh thermal compound / grease is a good precaution. Then the bias and offsets for the power amp are set back to spec. Of course a good physical cleaning goes without saying... For Pioneers, checking / resoldering the heat stressed solder joints is always a wise investment of time. From that point onwards it depends upon the original unit." Simple, eh? $20, eh? Yeah, right. And even if you did this yourself, which you didn't indicate you were capable of doing, you would still have a thirty year old, low end Pioneer receiver after all that. With old parts left in it. And no warranty. And what if you blew it up? What's it worth then? "Well, you can always ship it to our Wizard EchoWars (Kansas City). You will get back a unit in tip top shape." No price quoted for repairs - I wouldn't either until I'd seen the receiver. What would shipping both ways cost you, suspect? $30 each way? Or would you just ship it at the rate it takes to get there and back in three years time? Add $60 to the cost of the projected $300-500 re-cap/refurbishment. You're at best case scenario $50 away from a new NAD integrated with a one year warranty and far more clean power and better sound than your old Pioneer. (Shop the "B" stock and you can probably get the NAD for $350.) Even with my opinion of NAD, I'd take it over a thirty year old, low end Pioneer receiver with thirty year old parts remaining. Now here's my original reply to your post, suspect. "Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 10:19 pm: After 30 years of use the internal components have simply worn out. Most likely the values of a few bias resistors have drifted and the capacitors are no longer capacitating (yeah, I made that up, but the caps are shot). When this happens the output transistors fry. And if I remember correctly the 737 had what were called Darlington Block IC (integrated circuit) outputs. Personally, I can't believe it has lasted this long. This is not what you want to hear (you know what's coming already, don't you?) but at this point in time it is not worth fixing. You will find it very difficult if not impossible to find a shop that has not culled the schematic for this receiver from their files years ago. No schematic, no fix. (current emphasis) Bias levels cannot be set properly and values of common components like resistors and caps can't be guessed at. More than likely when the smoke appeared it meant not only fried outputs but more than likely a fried circuit board. There is no way to replace that now days. If I were you, I would thank the Pioneer for 30 years of service and head out to buy a new unit. If I remember correctly once again, that was only 35 watts per channel and it sold for less than $299 in 1973-4. That means it has cost $10 per year to own this receiver. It is time to retire the SX-737. (current emphasis) If you shop carefully you will be suprised at what you can get for your money today. If cost is important look to the used market to find a good value." And here's John A.'s reply. "J. Vigne is spot-on as usual. Let me just add that there ARE makes where you could repair a 1973 amp and it would be good as new. As J. says, though, one component failure (electrolytic capacitors do dry out and eventually fail) and it can take a whole load of other things with it. You may need to be quite skilled to diagnose the problem, it is unlikely to be simple. That means heavy labour costs. Probably even skilled repairers would advise you to write it off." I stand by every word I posted almost four years ago and I would expect John will do the same. Our advice doesn't sound that different to me than the second AK group stated. For you information, suspect, I own vintage gear. Most everyone here knows my daily use amplifiers are over forty years old and I have maintained a pair of speakers that are over thirty years old. My pre amp is almost twenty years old and I just replaced my twenty five year old turntable. I kept the twenty five year old tonearm. I live in a ninety year old house that I have lovingly and expensively maintained and refurbished. I drive a twelve year old Toyota and a twenty two year old Honda. So, suspect, if you'd like to lecture me on what's worth maintaining and what's not, let's hear it. You were under no obligation to do as John or I suggested. We gave you opinions based upon our knowledge. I know the Pioneer receiver you have and, while you might like it, I have a lower opinion of it than I do a well chosen piece of new equipment. I would not refurbish a Pioneer receiver. You seemed to agree with my opinion at the time of the original post. Now, almost four years later, you want to make an issue of someone else with another opinion? What the he11 is wrong with you? . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5856 Registered: Feb-05 | In response to Suspecterrain, no one knows everything and that's why there are a number of different forums where many folks can chime in. It's nice to hear from many folks so that you can research the information that you get and make informed decisions. As Jan stated AK specializes in vintage, however you would be expected to do your your own followup research there as well...maybe even especially there as there are many more folks there and they are not allowed to speak their minds in quite the same way you can here. At AK vintage means anything from curbside junk to classic vintage pieces like Jan owns...the true strength at AK is their ability to enjoy and breathe life into old gear that many of us might view as junk, if it's the best you've ever owned it's not junk to you and folks at AK will give you encouragement and help you bring old pieces back to servicable condition...each forum has it's strenghts and weaknesses. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 950 Registered: Jun-07 | Jan- I read that whole thing, and had a grin on my face the whole time. Every word you typed is so true. IMO I wouldn't give the time of day, when it came to repairing a 30 year old Pioneer. 20 year old Bryston, 30 year old MAC, yeah probably. Jan is right, in the world of "cheap plastic throw aways" there is many 300-500 dollar integrated amps out there that would blow away that pioneer. So why waste the money. To name a few companies, NAD,Rotel,Onkyo,Outlaw Audio. Look into them before thinking about fixing, or buying another 30 year old piece of crap. http://stereophile.com/artdudleylistening/885/index1.html Take a look at this Rotel/NAD comparison. Read the whole thing, check out the parts these 350 dollar Integrated amps have in them. And wow...they come with a warranty...and are new...amazing. And would both smash the piss out of your pioneer. Jan- We might not agree on NAD, but we sure as hell agree on Cars buddy. Honda and Toyota all the way. Cheers. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuspecterrainPost Number: 19 Registered: Jun-04 | . MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! Holy cow, man! I'd never have thought this would receive such a virulent response! While i certainly don't have the gumption to address all the bees in your bonnet, i do appreciate the verve and expanse of your reply. A Pioneer SX-727 is not a Willie Mays baseball card No doubt - it is most certainly much more akin John Wockenfuss; unspectacular, yes, but beloved and useful nonetheless. this guy didn't offer to repair your receiver; did he? Disregarding the improper semicolon usage as well as the ensuing fragmented sentences and faulty preposition usage (as well as the run on sentence you are currently perusing), to which i would normally pay no mind; he did in fact offer repair services later in the post. Are you ignoring the projected cost to be in the range of $225-300? How about the possible $500? No one can tell until they look at the receiver. You didn't get anyone to look and now you want to blame me. This is precisely the crux of the issue. I didn't have anybody look at it then because it was deemed unworthy and it was further insinuated that failed caps might cascade failures into other components. Now that i own another identical unit the issue obviously arises as to preservation; to mitigate ultimate cap failure with preventative measures. I doubt i could justify spending the high estimate of $500 and the nature of the original discussion was to get a handle on these potentials. Crooked repair shoppes aside, a little background knowledge goes a long way. The cost estimates don't even take into account the potential of me completing these efforts myself -- what could possibly be wrong with a little guided foray into the guts of a wounded beast? But still, the prospect of a viable main unit for a paltry two hundred dollar repair bill would be the least costly of solutions. I too have a 90-year-old house and 17-year-old Toyota - it just seems that the 34-year-old Pioneer has more viability than your palette allows. Even with my opinion of NAD, I'd take it over a thirty year old, low end Pioneer receiver with thirty year old parts remaining. Great. The NAD would need a tuner, 2 phono stages and three speaker channels otherwise the budget would need to be adjusted accordingly. This endeavor keeps getting more costly, no? But really, what do i know? Music is what i love, the gear is secondary. Nick K - The link to NAD looks fine, add another $130 for the phone stage and a few bucks some random tuner and we have a serious number to work with - Thanks! If i may ask, what exactly do you mean by "smash the piss out of"? Does that mean loudness, or sweetness, or both? And what type of longevity could one expect? Art -- Agreed. Thank you for your sagely informed guidance. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5859 Registered: Feb-05 | Nick there are a lot of great old audio pieces that aren't exactly classics but that aren't slouches either. I'm listening to one now. I'd rather listen to my 30 yr old Sansui 6060 than a whole lot of integrateds and receivers sold by NAD over the last 20 yrs. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 951 Registered: Jun-07 | Art- I would live with, and fix a 30 year old Sansui as well, any day. But I wasn't talking about a 30 year old Sansui, I was referring to a 30 year old Pioneer. Big difference to my ears. NAD? I could care less what NAD has sold at the moment, I was just throwing some brands out there that make budget hi fi, that I would consider before fixing something that old. IMO, If I had a 30 year old unit, that I loved, and it worked, then by all means keep on loving it. If that 30 year old unit broke...then I would go to my dealer, and buy something new. This is just my opinion. If I had a 30 year old piece of equipment that was considered great hi fi, like a MAC or Sansui, then I would probably repair it, and then, still go buy a new one. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1666 Registered: Oct-04 | I can't make heads or tails out of what this guy's getting at. What the heck is your point? No wait, I don't care. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11970 Registered: May-04 | . A Pioneer SX-727 is not a Willie Mays baseball card No doubt - it is most certainly much more akin John Wockenfuss; unspectacular, yes, but beloved and useful nonetheless. If you wanted to salvage a John Wockenfuss card out of the garbage, you should have said so at the time of the original post. You didn't. You agreed with our assessment of your situation and took our advice. Four years later you are upset. How many John Wockenfuus cards do you think were thrown away and now someone else regrets the decision? Good Lord, suspect, assume some responsibilty for your own actions. I stand by my words in the original thread. Why don't you stand by yours? "this guy didn't offer to repair your receiver; did he? Disregarding the improper semicolon usage as well as the ensuing fragmented sentences and faulty preposition usage (as well as the run on sentence you are currently perusing), to which i would normally pay no mind; he did in fact offer repair services later in the post." Not in that post he didn't. But I see you're willing to take "expert" advice from someone who cannot spell "bullsh*t", "misspelled" and "aren't" among others and who displays their innate grasp of the English language by creating yet another run on sentence in no more than three words but you want to criticize my punctuation?!!! Piece o' work, suspect. Piece o' work. It's a forum, suspect, not a friggin' term paper. Maybe I'm missing something in this AK thread but the only other post I see from glen65 is his complaint about four inch lettering. That doesn't really qualify as an offer to repair your receiver, does it? It doesn't even make sense in the context of the AK thread. "Are you ignoring the projected cost to be in the range of $225-300? How about the possible $500? No one can tell until they look at the receiver. You didn't get anyone to look and now you want to blame me. This is precisely the crux of the issue. I didn't have anybody look at it then because it was deemed unworthy and it was further insinuated that failed caps might cascade failures into other components. Yes, that's right. That's what can happen. Has anyone on AK addressed that issue? No. And did you have anyone look at the unit? No. Now is that my fault too? You really are going to have to explain that one to me, suspect. It's your receiver, not mine. I can't do this for you. I gave you advice. As Art suggests there are other forums that also give advice. Did you seek out another free opinion? No. You didn't even do that much until four years later. Get over yourself, suspect. Because other issues can be present in a thirty year old product the second AK thread suggests the unit must be worth fixing. Smoke is often an indicator of serious problems that would typically render a thirty year old, low end receiver unrepairable. I've been there on multiple occassions and I've heard the exact same advice come out of the mouths of several repair technicians who I greatly respect. There are times to leave things behind. This was, IMO, one of those times. Both AK threads discuss recapping/refurbishing a receiver. They do not address matters of repairing a unit that has smoked. Take my "expert" word one more time, please. Smoke rolling forth from the inside of an amplifier renders it less than valuable. If you total your seventeen year old Toyota, do you think the shop will recommend a tune up? Bad caps that still allow the receiver to operate with a slight hum should be considered a very different situation than a receiver that has had smoke pour from its innards. The one amplifier channel was worthless according to your post. A technician would first have to diagnose the damage and then perform the repair to the actual damaged components, reset values and address basic operational issues to get the receiver's power amplifier working as best as possible. (Some of those thirty year old parts are only available by salvaging another similar amplifier further raising the repair costs and delaying its return to you.) Figure about five to ten hours at approximately $50-60 per hour for labor plus parts. If the tech has a schematic. So, $250-600 just to repair the unit not including shipping- if repair was possible. Once again no one on AK has even suggested it was possible. They just want to replace caps and clean the unit for as much as another $500. These are the "experts" you want to trust. Only after that repair has been completed and you are booked for those costs could the technician then give you a somewhat realistic estimate of refurbishing costs. None of these "experts" on AK have mentioned that issue. You don't seem to understand the difference a blown channel makes to what these guys are offering to do. If the unit has sustained sufficient damage that would make it unrealistic to repair for reasonable costs, then there is no point in refurbishing that unit. So far all I see is some guys on AK spouting off about how old stuff is capable of being refurbished - for a cost. John told you some vintage gear is worth repairing and some is not. What more do you want? You have not indicated you've actually asked any repair center for an estimate of what it would cost to repair your broken reciever or made any attempt to actually find anyone to do this work. You have some sort of vague offer from an internet forum geek. Ya'know, that's not all that reassuring in my book. You want to suggest I am not an "expert", which I never claimed to be, but you are taking the word of another group of on line "experts" to criticize me. My Lord, my Lord! There's one born every minute. Doesn't this fall into the old adage of, "Fool me once ... "? You want to hear what pleases you and you are willing to make a fool of yourself in order to do what? I'm not about to apologize. You made your decision. Accept that. You bought a "better", more powerful (the "flagship" of the line) used receiver for $30. That is less than it could possibly have cost to repair your old Pioneer and that would only be repairs, not refurbishment. That is what it would cost you to ship the old Pioneer to a repair shop. Isn't that what I told you to do? I said you should look for something used to save some money? You found something and you saved money. I don't get your gripe, suspect. "Now that i own another identical unit the issue obviously arises as to preservation; to mitigate ultimate cap failure with preventative measures. You don't prevent capacitor failure. That's like trying to prevent a light bulb from burning out. Things get old and things wear out. You replace caps when they need to be replaced. To do otherwise is not in keeping with your idea of frugality. Ask the experts at AK since they are your new buds. "I doubt i could justify spending the high estimate of $500 and the nature of the original discussion was to get a handle on these potentials. NO. The AK guys are giving figures for refurbishing the receiver. You asked about and I answered regarding repairing the unit. These are not the same thing. Get that through your head, suspect. If you couldn't justify the refurbishment fee, why are you upset that I suggested you buy something used for less money? That price is for refurbishment only. Only! Not a repair of your broken, smoked receiver. Only refurbishment of a working receiver. Your receiver was not working. Got that? Not one of the AK guys has addressed the cost of repair. Go back and ask them how much that would cost. You got off for $30. What is the problem?! "Crooked repair shoppes aside, a little background knowledge goes a long way." I see. You are one of those who thinks everyone is out to get you. Well, I think the saying goes something like, "Just because you think someone is out to get you doesn't mean they're not". You, sir, are a class A goof! "The cost estimates don't even take into account the potential of me completing these efforts myself" The cost "estimates" as you prefer to call them don't account for a lot of things. "what could possibly be wrong with a little guided foray into the guts of a wounded beast?" Take your current receiver off the shelf, suspect, and turn it around. See the little sticker that says, "Do not remove cover. No user serviceable parts inside. This unit contains lethal voltages"? They're not kidding. One of my favorite vintage audio web sites was "Experiments in Electrocution". Unfortunately, it's no longer on the web or I'd have you read it. Maybe someone didn't heed their own advice. I don't know. But I imagine you can guess what it was about and then consider what could go "wrong with a little guided foray into the guts of a wounded beast?" Just who would guide you? The experts at AK? I haven't seen them offer to do that either. "But still, the prospect of a viable main unit for a paltry two hundred dollar repair bill would be the least costly of solutions." No, you idiot! The least costly of solutions is what I suggested and you accomplished. You found a used receiver for $30. That's less money than $200. If $200 is "paltry", what's the problem with spending $30 to solve the problem? This is getting ridiculous. "I too have a 90-year-old house and 17-year-old Toyota - it just seems that the 34-year-old Pioneer has more viability than your palette allows." If you like the Pioneer so much, buy another. Your's is gone. You and only you decided to scrap it. You salvaged parts and you decided to throw it away. How you can blame me for your decision is beyond me. You didn't seek another opinion until four years later. You don't have good advice now since no one has addressed the repair issues. You never looked for a shop to repair the unit. You never even called a shop for a repair estimate. You did nothing other than what I suggested. And now you're upset. I bet you're still stewing over how they treated Nixon, eh? And all this is my fault. "Even with my opinion of NAD, I'd take it over a thirty year old, low end Pioneer receiver with thirty year old parts remaining. Great. The NAD would need a tuner, 2 phono stages and three speaker channels otherwise the budget would need to be adjusted accordingly. This endeavor keeps getting more costly, no?" Once again, no, you flaming idiot. The Pioneer had one phono pre amp. Just like the Rotel and the NAD. The power amplifier section of the Pioneer was bad according to your original post. You didn't bother to find out whether anything was salvageable or useable from the receiver. If you had asked, we would have told you that you could have possibly used the Pioneer as a tuner/pre amp. Did you ask? No. You went out and bought another receiver. Then you threw away your old receiver. Are you not seeing a trend here, suspect? The Pioneer was a stereo receiver. That means two channels, not three. There were no three channel receivers at the time the Pioneer was being produced so you couldn't have had a three channel receiver no matter what you had bought. "But really, what do i know?" Apparently, not much. The problem appears to be I am arguing with a nincompoop. You don't know what you had. You didn't bother to explore other options. And you want to blame me for your actions. You want to blame me for your own stupidity and laziness. Now who here should get the swift kick in the pants? "Music is what i love, the gear is secondary." Then quit your b!tchin'. You have a working receiver for less money than any of the options provided by Audio Karma. If I were you I would be quite happy and not the pain in the @ss that you are. The Rotel integrated linked to in the Stereophile article has a phono section. It retails for $499. Still less than the high estimate to refurbish your Pioneer. The NAD has an optional phono pre amp. Together the two units, the integrated and the phono section, retail for $430. At retail pricing both are still less than the high cost of refurbishment only on the Pioneer. Hey, suspect, you can negotiate retail prices. Try negotiating your repair bill. I can absolutlely guarantee either of these two integrateds would have what almost anyone would consider better sound quality than your old Pioneer. And they would have a warranty. What would they lack that your Pioneer would have? Thirty year old parts still inside after you'd spent $500 on a refurbishment - not a repair. suspect, you are an idiot. . |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1667 Registered: Oct-04 | http://www.ecost.com/detail.aspx?edp=40159585 Phono section, XM, and a 1-yr. warranty for under $100! Welcome to the 21st-century. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11972 Registered: May-04 | . Best Buy has a couple of receivers they regularly put on sale for $79-99. They don't have phono or XM but they are easily available to anyone. That leaves lots of room for a phono pre amp for $49 and a speaker switch. Of course, that's still more than a $30 used Pioneer. Man, am I not getting this. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11973 Registered: May-04 | . Once again, suspect, in case you just decided this didn't apply to your situation. This is from the second linked AK thread. "The best way to go about fixing a problem is properly troubleshooting, then repairing the problem effecting the receiver. Then go about making improvements once you decide the unit is likable and reliable enough for regular use. Its better than dumping money into a piece of equipment that has a problem recapping won't solve and then having to take it to the tech anyways than just having it done right the first time." Got that? Recapping doesn't solve all problems. Decide whether the unit is reliable. Smoke and burnt electronics smell generally indicate less than "reliable" components. . |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1000 Registered: May-06 | About 12 years ago I had a 1967 Plymouth Fury III convertible. Just bought it, and it burned up under the hood with an engine fire. I had it insured as it had a bored out blueprinted 383 in it. Later I had a huge plume of smoke exit the tailpipe as the car rolled to a stop. It needed a trans and I had to pay for it out of pocket. I paid it. But that was the limit, I later sold it as little things kept going wrong. This sh!t adds up. If I had a 17 year old Toyota whatever and the engine compartment had caught on fire it would be bye-bye Toyota as I would only have had liability coverage with it. Same if I had to replace the trans, I would dump the Toyota and buy something else used. Or buy another 15 - 20 year old Toyota for the price of the trans and keep the first Toyota for parts. Now take the words Plymouth Fury III with a bored and blueprinted 383 and replace that with a modified Marantz or Sansui. Take the words Toyota and replace that with the word Pioneer. You did what I or anyone else with a brain would have done. This has to be the first time I ever heard someone b!tch and complain about getting good advice and doing the logical thing. Not to mention 4 years later. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11979 Registered: May-04 | . I must take note of the influx of Audio Karma geeks coming to defend suspect. They want to call someone names and tell people to "F" themself on their forum but won't bother to justify their rants on this forum. Maybe their momma's called them in for the night. Maybe they couldn't click on the link 'cause the tape fell off their glasses. Maybe they passed out from the smell of solder flux. Anyway, suspect, you got us and we're all hoping you leave now. If you've been here for four years and only accumulated fourteen posts, I doubt we'll miss you. I hear your momma callin'. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5862 Registered: Feb-05 | Hmm, I don't see any AK folks here. Looks like just Suspect and the rest of us...where are the AK'ers that are defending anyone? I guess I must have missed that part of the thread. Last I heard this forum is open to all including folks with memberships elsewhere. I have been a member of both for exactly the same amount of time...3 yrs next mo, and I have more than 6 times more posts over here. I enjoy both forums and think that they both have strengths and weaknesses. We also have folks here from AV Forums, Audioholics, Audio Asylum, The Naim Forum, Audio Circle and many many more. Hopefully this is a welcoming place for everbody to share their information and expertise. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1001 Registered: May-06 | Well Art you appear to be defending Suspect and you are an AK'er... Chill, I am messing with you. LOL  |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5864 Registered: Feb-05 | It's cool Mike..I knew it was comin' . I am a member at AK (and also all of the other forums I mentioned and more such as Stereophile). However I'm takin' no position on this issue. I do believe that 4 yrs later is a bit difficult to explain however it ain't my issue. I like vintage gear as well as the new stuff and I see little if any difference between vintage Pioneer, Kenwood (which my wife owns), Marantz and Sansui (to name just a few). Actually my wife has a nearly 40 yr old Pioneer SX 770 which sounds better than her Kenwood...she won't admit it though because she likes the look of the Kenny better. For me the Pioneer piece in question may be better than it has been given credit for...don't know, never owned that one. C'mon Mike I know you are holding out on us with your old Pioneer receiver!!! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11980 Registered: May-04 | . I hope this is my last post in this thread. The really smart thing for suspect to do would have been buy the $30 receievr upgrade from his old Pioneer. Then save the old Pioneer instead of scrapping parts from it and go find someone like the guys on AK that want to rebuild that sort of equipment. He probably could have sold the junked Pioneer for the price of the working upgrade he got and come out at $0 sum balance. Did he do that? No. Did he ask if that was a smart thing to do? No. Did he go from his first post on this forum at 3PM on Tuesday to his last post saying he had purchased a receiver for $30 on Wednesday at 9AM? Yep. Does that sound like someone who even explored the idea of repair or salvage with any seriousness? Not to me. suspect, you screwed the pooch on this one all the way around. . |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4779 Registered: Dec-03 | Suspecterrain alias Chris, Thanks for the initial post. Your original question was "I'm only guessing here, but are there two separate amps that power each channel, and if so, can they readily be replaced." If the true answer to your question is "Yes" then I am delighted, and please ignore my comment. I am happy to acknowledge other opinions, and a lot of people know more than I on the feasibility of refurbishing, repairing and renovating. The question Jan was addressing, originally, I suspect, was implied by your post, and along the lines of "...and would it be worth it?" If sound alone is the issue, then the cost of fixing the amp should be compared with the cost of buying something to replace it that performs as well and sounds as good. I pass on that. Since those posts in 2004 I have had my FM tuner professionally restored but find that FM reception has problems where I now live. I'm still pleased to have the thing in original condition, but don't use it so often, preferring the clarity of a cheap Digital (DAB) receiver, a technology that did not exist when the tuner was made. So the answer to "was it worth it?" was "Yes, for me, it would not be for someone else, just for sound quality". I mean to get my matching amp repaired by the same company. I'll get an estimate, first.... |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1005 Registered: May-06 | Hey if anyones was to do a ground hog day thing they can jump on this and come back an yell at me four years from now. It's up $1 buck more and a higher model than the one bought four years ago. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem%26item%3D230208031558&ssPageName=M ERC_SITS_RCRX_Pr2_PcY_BID_IT |
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Bronze Member Username: SuspecterrainPost Number: 20 Registered: Jun-04 | Four years later this remains relevant because folks as steeped in gear as yourself should be able to spot a friggin newbie waxing nostalgic about the demise of a goddamn $50 receiver. If i am cheap and tasteless ignoramus those as expert as you should have known that factions exist where resurrection might have been a viable and inexpensive option. Since you make no claim of expertise i must apopologise for my errantly misguided assumptions and redirect my vile towards subjectory describing your materfamilias' fray-shielding metatarsal accoutrement. Chest-pounding usually finds company with knuckle dragging and is evidenced with the your obvious need for an abundance of column space no matter how frivolous or paltry the content. The continuation of the initial post exists solely for those who might wrongly conclude that the original situation was hopeless. Art - once again, your comments are as a bountifully laden fig tree. Michael - excellent analogy, however, it was never concluded that there was an actual engine fire (i.e. I never made any reference to smoke or fire, only to the scent of fizzled electronics). To follow your car analogy through, the problem might have been as simple as a loose vacuum tube or a bad timing belt. But you're absolutely right about limiting the extent of exposure. John - Thank you very much for your constructive comments. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11986 Registered: May-04 | . ROTFL!!! I finally get it! After four years the doctors finally gave you a week's pass. Doesn't matter. You still screwed the pooch all the way around. Bye. . |
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