Amp Question
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 11 Registered: Sep-06 | For whole house audio I currently have: 1) Carver HR732 (No pre-outs, 80wpc) 2) Caver 5 disc Carousel changer 3) Boston Acoustic T-945 (In Great Room, 24x40) 4) Boston Acoustic A60's (Kitchen) 5) Speakercraft 6.5" in-ceiling speakers (Bedroom & Bathroom) 6) Niles audio 6 zone speaker controller 7) Volume controls at each speaker set. I have a Denon AVR1400 that isn't being used, and was considering purchasing a new or used power amplifier and using the Denon as the pre-amp/Tuner. My considerations are: 1) Local used H/K PA2200 (Reasonably priced) 2) Used Carver Power amp. Suggested models appreciated. 3) NAD 372 Integrated or 272 power. The used amps are substantially less money than the new NAD's. I love the HK sound, and I also love the Carver Receiver, just want a little more power. I was at the top end of my budget in 1991 when I bought the Carver receiver, CD changer and BA towers, so the 742 with pre-outs was out of my reach then. I guess I'm a little bit by the upgrade bug, but also want a little better sound quality and additional headroom. Would any of the above be worth the upgrade? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11939 Registered: May-04 | . Ok, your username caught my attention. How do you expect the sound quality to improve? Why do you think more watts will do it? What you get from in-wall/ceiling mount speakers is pretty basic stuff. I am going to guess the A60's aren't set up for decent sound but are placed where they fit fairly well out of the way. So what are you thinking will change about their sound? That's a twenty year old speaker to begin with. Not that I'm not all for keeping old stuff running but you have to know what you have and what to expect. The A60's can easily be bettered by many contemporary speakers. But if keeping them out of sight is more important than setting them up to sound good, then you have to know what to expect and no speaker sounds its best when it's not properly placed. You certainly can't be expecting any large increase in bass or treble response from these speakers just by adding more watts. Can you? And sound staging is out the window with these speakers. Detail retreival? How closely do you sit down and listen to these speakers? So what exactly do you expect will happen here? You'll spend money for a new amp to get a few more watts and what? Are you driving the 80 watts you have into clipping all the time? If so, then what will more watts achieve? And how many more watts will you need to not clip the amp? The answer there is - a bunch! But I doubt you are clipping the amp. What you are more than likely doing is asking too much of the Denon receiver on a more basic level. The Niles speakers switcher is not "six zone" system. It is a six speaker switch box which feeds the same source material to all the speakers and you get to decide which speakers play at any given time. How many do play at any one time? How few? Supplying different source material to different speaker zones would be the job of the pre amp and a multi-channel amplifier. You are simply asking the Denon to drive the load the switch box presents. If you have the Niles "protection" switch in place, you've added a 20 Ohm power resistor to the amplifier's outputs. I can guarantee the Denon doesn't like that. You don't give a clue as to whether the volume controls are an autoformer type to accomplish impedance matching, so I'll assume they are not. Therefore, you are asking the Denon to drive a very tough load that it wasn't meant to do. You really can't expect much in the way of fidelity when you're making life tough on the amplifier. The five disc carousel CD changer is not the height of fidelity when it comes to feeding the system decent sound quality. As a general rule, the system cannot sound any better than the source signal it is provided. But CD players aren't going to make a large difference in bass and treble amounts either. So what would be a reasonable "upgrade" in your mind? What do you expect will change once you've spent your money? I don't know the T-945's but that's a pretty big room you have to fill. Great rooms are usually "great big" rooms with two story ceiling height. That makes for a lot of cubic space for any speaker to fill. What do you do with these speakers? Do you sit and listen to music or is it always background stuff that comes through this system? If it's all background, then that changes what you should do and buy. Are the T-945's set up for good sound or are they stuck out of the way also? Speaker placement is crucial to "good" sound. That's one area you should address before you spend a dime. If the speakers don't fit the room that should also be considered a first step to better sound. I'll need to know quite a bit more before I can make any suggestions. Possibly another member would care to make some indiscriminant recommendations that might prove helpful; but I don't know where to start from the information you've provided. As is, I would say you need to get a real system for the main listening area and buy something that suits the rest of the multi-speaker stuff. Two systems, one for real music and one for whole house is where I'd start. That probably leaves out a HK PA2200, a Carver power amp, and a NAD something or other as real options to improve what you have elsewhere in the system. It also means a new CD player for the real music system. But if all this is meant for background music and listening while doing something else and you have to stick speakers where they are out of the way, then the whole picture changes. So, now what? . |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 12 Registered: Sep-06 | Wow! I never would have thought that asking for some insight on going from a receiver to seperates would have upset someone into such a tirade. So, here's what now. First, I listed all the components currently connected to give you an idea of where I am currently at. I see you are like many on these boards that basically turns your nose up at anything but the latest & greatest, and if you can't have it all, you're better off with nothing. I don't necessarily agree. Yes the A60's are old, and the in ceiling speakers are not for reference quality listening. My Boston Acoustic T945's are, however, placed nicely in my greatroom, not tucked away and hidden. I will use them to listen to music, and also as backround when entertaining. My question comes from researching how seperates give you more versatility, and the added power can give more headroom. In a big area, such as my greatroom, I was hoping going to a seperate, more powerful amp, that it would create a better soundstage, for my personal listening. Starting the Seperate(s) upgrade would be the beginning. First the amp, using the Denon as a the Pre-Amp/Tuner. (I'm not really sure about all your references to the Denon, as it seems you assume that is the receiver I am currently using. It is not, I am using the Carver HR732) In the future, I would acquire a pre-amp & tuner, and then probably upgrade the CD player. I never realized that my Carver CD player was on the same fidelity level as a $25 Walkman. (What's even more unusual is that ALL Carver CD players must be junk, because I didn't even list the model number) And, I do apologize to calling my Niles speaker switch box a 6 zone controller. My bad. No my Carver Receiver is not clipping. With the current setup, I have the reciever volume control at 12 o'clock, and get reasonable volume levels at the speaker volume contols. I guess I thought with a little more power, I would have a little more clean power at the speaker volume contols. (I hope that doesn't upset you further) I don't give a clue about the volume controls, because, I'lll be honest, I don't have a clue as to what type they are. How would I find out? What are the differences? I've played all 4 sets of speakers (I almost typed "zone" again!) at the same time, and obviously, as few as one set. I'm not sure what the Denon likes or doesn't since it's not hooked up to the system. It's use would be as the pre-amp/tuner, if I were to go to seperates. Are you saying that the Niles Speaker switches are hard on all equipment? Or are you saying I need a more powerful amp to make better use of it? I guess that the HK, Carver, or NAD something or other are pretty much garbage, also from your comments. Could you please let me know the components you would use in the above situation. What "real system" would you use for muscial listening in the great room, and what, umm, I guess pretend system would you use for the balance of the whole house? Please list brands & models so I can see if I have any local vendors. I did a search for a "real system" on google, and really couldn't find any more info than what you posted above. It really amazes me how small minded some people are, that they speak as if they are experts, and some are, but feel it's better to be a pompus @#$ about their percieved knowledge, and say nothing of value, and while doing so, degrade and demean. This may be the first time I have regretted building my 70chevelle! Thanks for the info, I'll figure things out for myself, you've been very helpful! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11955 Registered: May-04 | . Back off, TT. I didn't insult your wife, kids or dog. I gave some opinions and asked a few questions. If that upsets you, we can end this now. If you want some help, you'll have to endure some questions and comments. I can't change the fact your A60's are twenty years old or that they are sitting on top of your kitchen cabinets but I need to know what you expect from them. As I understand it, your question amounted to; would a new amplifier give you better sound quality and more headroom? Since you didn't define "better sound quality", what was I supposed to answer? The answer is no! The A60's and the ceiling mount speakers are going to sound the same after you spend some cash. Now, if you're going to get p!ssy that I asked what you meant by better sound quality, then we have nowhere else to go with this thread. This is my fourth decade of dealing with this stuff and I don't have time to waste spouting model numbers that aren't relevant to your needs. So, I couldn't in my first post and I can't in my second, third or tenth post give you model numbers without any reference as to what they will achieve for you. That wastes your time and mine. If that's what you want, go to another forum, there are plenty of posters out there who tell you to go buy such and such without ever asking you what you really want. I don't do that. As a matter of fact, even if we go through another fifty posts, I cannot and will not tell you a model number of any component to buy. I can give you guidelines on how to solve your problem but I don't do paint by numbers systems. Denon/Carver, it's all the same when you run it through the Niles box. The Niles speaker switcher isn't crap but it was meant for a specific job and that isn't the task you're asking it to do. You don't build your car, or your house or a lamp for that matter with parts that aren't meant for the task at hand and you don't build a system with parts that aren't doing the right job. OK? The Niles should be used to switch remote speakers and should be kept away from "real" hifi. If you want a scrambled, processed sound system, then that's what you've got. If you want a sound system that sounds good and then you also want some remote speakers, you have to go about it another way. If you want help with that other way, I'll give you some guidlelines. I won't hold your hand and I won't give you model numbers. You'll be the one spending the money and finding some real hifi gear. If you want more than that, go to a dealer now. It's their job to supply model numbers, not mine. Yep, your Carver is crap. If you want better soundstaging, the Craver is crap. All of them. Doesn't matter what model. If better soundstaging is better sound quality to you, then dump the Carver to your whole house system and buy a real CD player for the real hifi. Don't want to do that? Bye-bye. Do you need a bigger power amplifier? Probably not. Will your system sound "better" with a bigger power amplifier and the Denon as a tuner/pre amp? I doubt it. What goes in is what comes out. The Denon isn't any better than, and probably not as good as, the Carver as a front end. That's my opinion; you're welcome to get someone else's. "I did a search for a "real system" on google, and really couldn't find any more info than what you posted above." Maybe that's because no one else can tell you what a "real system" will be for you until you do more than a Google search and one forum post. If you want help, that's what this forum is for. I've told you what I'll do and what I need from you to do that job. If you want to figure this out for yourself, fine. Don't be sorry you have a Chevelle, be sorry you are getting yourself in a high dugeon just because I asked for some information and told you you don't presently have a good system. I figured the fact you don't have a good system is why you're asking how to get a good system. Silly me! If you want to get over yourself and get help from me and probably others on this forum, then stick around and be prepared to answer questions. I don't care how old your stuff is or how new. Most of my stuff is old, way older than your oldest stuff. I care about whether anything you own is any good and if it serves your needs. I don't hold hands; I have better things to do with my time. Getting a good system is a walk along a path. I'm here to keep you on the right path. You either follow my lead or you leave. Maybe somebody with less baggage will come along here. They'll give you model numbers and some of them will even give you links to places that sell stuff cheap. As is, I'm what's available. So, now what? . |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 13 Registered: Sep-06 | Here's what now, Janny! Back off Janny, I gave you a few opinions and asked a few questions. If you don't like it.....end it now. You may actually have 4 decades worth of knowledge in this, but you conduct yourself as if you haven't been on this earth for 2. I don't write your posts, you do, deal with what they bring. Now before you read the rest, and you know you will, I don't have $5-$30K to spend. If entry level seperates are no better than my current stable, then just say so. You can say, "Unless your willing to spend $5-$30k in an upgrade, your current system should suit you well" See how non-antagonizing that is, and it's saying the same thing as you without the animosity. The meager amount of useful info I pulled from your first post seems a little contradictory. Let me explain. You wrote: "Supplying different source material to different speaker zones would be the job of the pre amp and a multi-channel amplifier. You are simply asking the Denon to drive the load the switch box presents. If you have the Niles "protection" switch in place, you've added a 20 Ohm power resistor to the amplifier's outputs. I can guarantee the Denon doesn't like that." So, the appropriate way to set up my whole house audio would be to have a multi channel amp (6) or (3) 2 channel amps connected to a preamp. Then there would be no processing thru the switch box? (If I can ask?) But you also allude that the in-ceiling speakers and the A60's on top of the cabinets are waste of time to drive from seperate amplifiers. Which is it? Is it better to ask more from my receiver than it may want to give, or should I upgrade to a seperate amp for each set up speakers. Or, I guess I could use my Carver receiver to run 2 of the zones on the A/B speakers, and connect my Denon Receiver to the other 2 pair on the A/B, and this would be better than running them thru the Speaker switch? I really don't see myself buying high end speakers, and placing them appropriately in my kitchen. Not enough room, and then I'll have think about room treatments since it is all ceramic tile and windows. Similar situation in the bedroom & bathroom. I'll agree I'm not looking for a "audiophile stereo experience" while I'm showering. Now the next issue with what I think your suggesting and/or not suggesting is that I have a nice piece of furniture that houses my crappy Carver equipment and a small bedroom home theater receiver & dvd that I won't go into to keep from getting further chastised. The point is that I will shortly be running out of room with all this new equipment, although the heat it will generate in the winter would be a nice addition. So Jan, eliminating brands and model numbers, and assuming you were moving into my house, had to keep the in-ceiling speakers (yes, as backround music), had a choice of speakers and placement in the kitchen and I threw in my Boston Acoustic Towers, what would you do???? How would you set up the feed?????? And come on now, don't be thin skinned, play along. Throw down another Prozac if necessary. I want to learn. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9539 Registered: Dec-04 | TT, you get full measure with JV and then some. These are exactly the QandA that you should get from a quality dealer. Just a tip. Yeah the attitude could be improved and a coffee would be nice, but hey, take what ya get for an online forum. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11958 Registered: May-04 | . Then listen. The name is Jan, not "Janny". If you want to insult me, you can do this yourself. There's nothing in this for me. First you tell me to screw myself and then you ask for advice. You're a treat, TT. Start behaving like you have some common sense and can comprehend what I'm telling you and this will proceed for your benefit. I think you're making assumptions that I don't lead you into or anywhere near. I never told you to scrap all the gear. I told you to set up a main system and a whole house system. Two independent systems with few, if any, shared components. One provides decent sound in the main listening room and the other gives background music to the rest of the speaker locations - they are not zones. Zones require a different pre amp for the whole house system. If that's what you want, then you'll have to buy some new gear for the whole house installation. Zones provide independent source material fed to various locations. You can have all the speakers in the entire house play one CD or you can have a CD play in two rooms, a DVD in another and the tuner in another. That would be three zones. You need independent channels of amplification to do that. As is, the Niles box only allows one source to play through whatever speakers are switched in. You tell me what you want, I'll tell you how to get it. I also did not tell you to scrap the Niles switch box. I told you it's function was not intended for your present usage and it is not helping the sound quality of your present set up. You can use it if you like or you can buy a multichannel amplifier to drive the house system. It doesn't belong in a real hifi system. A multichannel amplifier is the better solution rather than the switch box but not necessary if you don't want multiple zones. You can use the two receivers as multichannel amplifiers for dual zones but that makes for a messy installation that you'll have to explain to someone if the receivers or the system requires servicing. If one goes out, you loose all the connections and start over. This would be my least favorite option but you get to decide. If you want one zone with all the house speakers playing the same source, you can use the Niles box. It's not my favorite switch box but you can use it for background stuff. You need to find out what sort of volume controls you have in each room. Pull one from the wall and look at the model number. Either get on line to find that model or call a shop to ask if they can provide information. The second best way to do what you are asking is with autoformer type volume controls. The best way to do this is with an autoformer based switch box instead of the Niles with a protection switch. These autoformer switches and vc's match the impedance of all the speakers to the load requirements of the amplifier. No matter what you play, the amplifier will se a relatively constant impedance. This makes life simple for the amplifier. If you don't have autoformer type vc's, you can run what you have and be careful or you can buy new. I never said the A60's aren't worth driving with a separate power amplifier. I alluded to the fact the kitchen speakers aren't going to benefit from a better amplifier if they're stuck on top of the cabinets and you listen at background levels to background music. Did you follow that? You pick and choose what's most important and what's less important. If you want the kitchen system to sound "better", you've got to tell me now. Otherwise, a kitchen system is background music as far as I'm concerned and falls into the less important category. It's not important to getting you better soundstaging in the main listening room. If you want better soundtaging in the kitchen, it won't happen with the speaker on top of the cabinets. "Now the next issue with what I think your suggesting and/or not suggesting is that I have a nice piece of furniture that houses my crappy Carver equipment and a small bedroom home theater receiver & dvd that I won't go into to keep from getting further chastised. The point is that I will shortly be running out of room with all this new equipment, although the heat it will generate in the winter would be a nice addition." I don't know what this means. Are you just prattling on? You get to put the house system anywhere it's convenient. I don't care where that is. Is what you buy dictated by a nice piece of furniture? If so, it's your house and I doubt I'm going to be invited over to look at this system, so you can do whatever you like. But I could use the information when I'm suggesting how this system will go together. "And come on now, don't be thin skinned, play along. Throw down another Prozac if necessary. I want to learn." Then cut the crap. You have suggested better soundstaging is what amounts to better sound quality in your mind. Is that it? Is that all you want to improve? I can't tell you any more until I know what you want. Better soundstaging shouldn't require a new amplifier. But the Carver isn't going to get you real hifi sounstaging and I doubt the BA towers will either in that room. I don't have simple answers. You need to find some patience and work with me. If you just want someone to say, "Buy this", like I said, go to a dealer - now. If you're not clipping the amplifier, why do you want more "headroom"? I'm going to have a lot more questions and you'll have to wade through this. Is that what you're willing to do? If so, tell me what you want to improve, why you think your present set up isn't doing what you want and how much you do have to spend. And cut the crap. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9543 Registered: Dec-04 | Told ya, TT. Get to the heart of it and you will get lots of answers. Cheers Lighten up and listen to the music, man. |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 14 Registered: Sep-06 | Crazy way to interact, but thanks for the info Jan. That's a lot of typing for the both of us, to get a little bit of info. You definitely came with more info and less crap, so I will follow suit. I'm not really concerned about playing different source material in different rooms. I have had the current system since I built my house 8 years ago, and have really never ran into that need. I have a few other ideas and questions. 1) If I did eliminate the Niles box, (ie: multi channel amp or 2 receivers) are my VC's still an issue? (If they are not autoformers?) 2) If I were to start my "real" system in the great room. How do you feel about this: - Purchase - 2 Channel Amp, pre-amp, & CD Player (Assumed higher quality/fidelity than Carver, which shouldn't be hard according to your opinion of Carver) C'mon, just funnin'! 3) Connect the new Amp/Pre/CD directly to the BA Towers in the great room. 4) Connect Carver Rec to pre-amp as Tuner. (if that's possible) Therefore when I need background music I can have it thru the same system? And leave the Niles box in place for the Bedroom, Bath, & Kitchen speakers thru the Carver's amp section. 5) Work on speaker placement in the great-room for better SQ? 6) Consider upgrading speakers in the future, after the kids college fund....er fun money, replenishes. I know you're pushing me for what I want as far as an upgrade goes in fidelity terms, but the best I can tell you is that when I turn on the system, put in a cd and sit on my couch, I want to say, "Damn, that sounds good!" |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11962 Registered: May-04 | . "1) If I did eliminate the Niles box, (ie: multi channel amp or 2 receivers) are my VC's still an issue? (If they are not autoformers?)" Yes, if the vc's are a typical L-pad system, they will load down the amplifier. Bad joojoo! That's one reason Niles includes that dumb 20 Ohm load resistor as "protection". At background levels the Niles and the L-pad vc's are OK. They should be replaced with autoformer type controls/switches at some point, IMO, but that can wait. "2) If I were to start my "real" system in the great room. How do you feel about this: - Purchase - 2 Channel Amp, pre-amp, & CD Player (Assumed higher quality/fidelity than Carver, which shouldn't be hard according to your opinion of Carver)" That would be a very good start on a real hifi. "3) Connect the new Amp/Pre/CD directly to the BA Towers in the great room." We haven't really discussed the main speakers or main listening room. I don't think you'll ever get great sound from the BA towers in a large cubic foot room. I know there are better speakers than the BA towers, particularly if soundstaging is important to you. You'll have to decide how much you can spend for how much improvement. You need to talk to a dealer and listen to some products. You have decent mid fi speakers. They are not high end. Sorry. I suspect they might be struggling in the room. "4) Connect Carver Rec to pre-amp as Tuner. (if that's possible) Therefore when I need background music I can have it thru the same system? And leave the Niles box in place for the Bedroom, Bath, & Kitchen speakers thru the Carver's amp section." How much do you need a tuner? There are multiple options in tuners and some not-too-expensive options that will wipe the Carver. I do hate to keep picking on the Carver stuff but a friend just replaced his failing Craver tuner with a forty year old low end Pioneer receiver and is in no doubt of the upgraded sound quality from FM. With the same antenna he can pick up stations the Carver's tuning indicator didn't even respond to. I would look into HD radio and internet radio before I put any effort into making the Carver my main tuner even for background music. You can again decide how much to spend for how much improvement. FM in most cities in the US is low on my priority list. "5) Work on speaker placement in the great-room for better SQ?" Put "loudspeaker set up/placement" into a search engine. Begin with the W.A.S.P. set up. It typically provides the best sound with the least intrusion into the living space. Ther are other options for speaker set up and I would encourage you to experiment. Each room/speaker/listener is different and I can't tell you what you'll prefer. But, yes, this is where I would begin before I spent a dime. "6) Consider upgrading speakers in the future, after the kids college fund....er fun money, replenishes." That's the bare bones of a plan. Congratulations. Lot's of people never get that far and have already spent thousands of dollars. "I know you're pushing me for what I want as far as an upgrade goes in fidelity terms, but the best I can tell you is that when I turn on the system, put in a cd and sit on my couch, I want to say, 'Damn, that sounds good!' You'll eventually have to be more specific than that. As a salesperson I wouldn't know where to begin. Do you attend any live music events? . |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 15 Registered: Sep-06 | Jan, I just checked the model #'s of my VC's and they are autofomers - woohoo! (Niles SCW-1D) Thanks for all the other info! I did recommend an HD radio tuner to a friend recently, but forgot all about it. That's probably a better way to go. However, I do live near a small regional airport out in the sticks, so reception in general isn't the greatest. I do not attend live music events anymore, aside from my oldest daughter singing, and playing around with my acoustic guitar, which I could hardly dub music. I'll likely start down this road in the near future. Just have to take a look at what's left after the xmas bills come thru, and then research some components. Thanks again. |
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Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 502 Registered: Feb-07 | Jan, just curious, why would you ask a customer if he attended live music events? What would this tell you about the person's audio preferences? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11967 Registered: May-04 | . I tend to believe you need references. If you're just making this stuff up as you go along, how do you know what direction in which to head? You and TT and I may listen to the same musical event and all come away with a different quality to use as our own personal reference. But at least we have something. The worst clients I ever had were the ones who said, "I'll know it when I hear it." Maybe they will but I don't know how to take you along the path to what you might like to save both of us some time and money. It's like photography. You need to know why a particular lens will do the best job by comparing it to the image you want to reproduce not another photograph with its own distortions. If color abberations and distortions aren't of great concern to you, which they aren't for a lot of people when it comes to the finer detail of a lens, then you'll be happy with the less "correct" lens' image. I tend to think you should buy the lens that does the most correct job for the price you can afford. It gives you something to build upon rather than a foundationles system that isn't anchored to anything other than whim of the moment. Some people might have a "reference" for color accuracy and another might look for detail retrieval or another contrast. But, whatever you look for, be consistent and you'll find a path to what I would call the truth of the music. I started a thread a few years back that asked if anyone listened to live music. The thread still is remembered well and not so well by a few long time forum members. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11968 Registered: May-04 | . TT - That's good news about the vc's. Disengage any "protection" switches that might be on the Niles and let the autoformers do their job. Make certain all the vc's are set to the right impedance setting. Eight Ohms should be right for your receiver. If you don't know how to get this right, either contact Niles or call a Niles dealer. If I remember right, on the Niles you have a set of jumpers you have to place in some pinholes. But I never sold the Niles autoformeres so I might have that wrong. Keep me informed on your progress. I'll help where I can. The best thing to do is get with a reputable dealer and establish your budget. Then I would suggest you refresh your memory of what live music sounds like. There's too much "hifi" out there. IMO, some of the best advice I was ever given about audio is to buy what doesn't impress you. You'll get tired of being impressed by the system. Buy things that just let the music be important. Start with the midrange of the system and get voices right. Everything else will follow. . |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 16 Registered: Sep-06 | I took a lot of Jan's advice. I sat down last nite, before I visited my local shop, and really listened to my current system in the great room. I found that due to my speaker placement and couch placement, that when I'm sitting in my best listening position, that my couch masks a lot of the mids and highs. The bass became very fatiguing. When I stood up, it sounded great. The speaker placement and couch placement are not really adjustable due to the design. So I've rethought my game plan, and now am going in a relatively different direction. I came to the conclusion last nite, that using my great room for true 2 channel listening was going to be an uphill battle, and that spending $1200-$1400 for an amp & pre-amp wasn't going to change that. The only other room in my house that will work is my theater room. My first step is going to be to move the BA towers to the theater. I've had them there before and loved the way the way they sounded. My HK AVR247 has a bypass that will pass 2 channel stereo without processing. Since this is free, I'll audition this system for while to see how I really like it. Once satisfied, I am strongly considering adding the NAD 525bee, as a substantial source upgrade. From there, if I feel the need (or want) I can add a 2 channel amp and pre-amp to drive the towers for movies thru the HK247 and thru the pre-amp for 2 channel. But for the near future the 2 channel listening would be thru the HK. My theater room is approximately 13 x 15 and has bass traps in the front corners from floor to ceiling, and acoustical treatments at the first reflection points for the front & rear surround speakers. Ceiling has 2' soffit and is a drop ceiling with fiberglass panels. Now for backround music in the great room, I am going to audition the BA A60's just to see, again for free, if bookshelves can be acceptable in that area, especially without a sub. My wife is pretty excited about getting the towers out of the great room, so I think once they go, they are probably gone for good. Now, once I've decided for sure about the bookshelves, I'm considering using Paradigm Titan Monitors or Studio 20's. I plan on mounting them 5'-6' on the wall. I've heard the 20's and they sounded fantasic to me, but still have to listen to the Titan's. I will audition a few other brands at my shop, but I've been very satisfied with all the Paradigm speakers I own. That's the new tentative plan. Any thoughts? |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 966 Registered: Jun-07 | "I am strongly considering adding the NAD 525bee" Good start, very good for the money. "I'm considering using Paradigm Titan Monitors or Studio 20's" Big difference, the Studio 20's will toss around and vomit all over the new V5 Titans. If the price difference is not an option, the 20's are the easy choice. In fact, I would audition the Studio 20's in your music room against your BA's. Can the BA towers be mounted on the ceiling?? lol kidding. The Studio 20's are overkill for background music. They truly are a nice speaker for the money. |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 17 Registered: Sep-06 | I kind of figured the "toss around", but the "vomit all over" suprised me. lol. The price difference between the 2 is not prohibitive at around $300. I did think about auditioning the Studio 20's in the music room, but I think they may give me an issue with the CC290 since they are about 4db less sensitive for home theater duty. As far as mounting the BA's on the ceiling, that would be dangerous as my cathedral ceilings in the great room peak at 21', although, I guess I could put them on stands! |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 968 Registered: Jun-07 | CC290? as in Paradigm CC290 center channel? In that case, it would be a better timbre match with the Studio 20's than the BA's. If the Studio 20's are going to be a future purchase for you, I really would consider you audition them to be your main Music speaker. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11997 Registered: May-04 | . TT - It sounds as though you're thinkin' and listenin'. That's the best way to start this off. Assess what you have and make the most of the funds available. I will tell you I've seldom been impressed with shared systems when soundstaging is important. It's not the quality of the components but the space that is typically at odds with what you are trying to achieve. If you're dealing with a flat panel TV or something recessed into the wall, the problems are minimal and easily treated. If you have a large projection set sitting between the speakers, that large box nevers lets the system develop a coherent soundstage or solid imaging. Speaker placement well out into the room can help with this problem but never quite resolves all issues. Multiple undriven speakers in the room also have an influence on what you hear. Proceed with that information/opinion. The soffit can cause problems depending on your seating position. In my room I've had to place the subwoofer behind me since a similar soffit virtually divides my room at about 2/3 its length into a large and a small space with a standing wave settling into whichever side the sub is not on. IMO the BA's fatiguing bass is simply how they do things. No insult intended but these are mid-fi speakers. I suspect the A60's would have less fatiguing bass response though substantially less bass. Finding a speaker that does well in the PRaT (pacing, rhythm and timing) department should provide the remedy to that issue. If you can't do that change out right now due to cash restrictions, consider removing the deep bass from the towers and replacing it by way of a good subwoofer. The source upgrade is a perfect way to start. The A60's should do well in the great room. If you need some bottom in this area, the one product recommendation I would make is a Hsu subwoofer. You cannot find better for less money. Mounting bookshelf speakers literally on the wall has advantages and disadvantages when it comes to sound quality. Most standmount speakers (hardly anyone builds "bookshelf" speakers now days) prefer to be placed away from the walls. A good dealer can help with this decision. Good luck and keep moving forward. . |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 18 Registered: Sep-06 | Nickk - yes - Paradigm CC290 center channel. I really liked the Studio 20's when I listened to them a month or so ago, and haven't counted them out. I may ask my dealer for an in home audition where I could a/b them against the BA's for 2 channel stereo. I'll also have to listen to the Monitor 7 & 9's, which are the recommended match for the 290 center the same way. Jan - Thanks. I have a question about the "shared" system. My thoughts are to add a 2 channel amp & pre-amp and connect my front surrounds to this combo. Then connect the amp to the front surround pre-amp outs of the AVR so they would also be used for surround sound. But, 2 channel stereo would play only thru the amp/pre-amp/cd player, and not involve the AVR. Is this correct/possible? Also, my theater room has a projector. The only item on the front wall is the screen (102' diagonal) The speakers are set up to be about 2' from the back & side walls. My soffit is 2' wide and encompasses the front and sides, not the rear. The undriven speakers will be the 2 rear surrounds mounted inside the soffit at the rear. (Your dividing soffit sounds like a heat/return run that splits your room 2/3?) I'm going to hope that the bass won't be as fatiguing in a different setting where the mid/highs aren't blocked by an absorbing material (couch) Hopefully they will be better in a better setup. If not, I will have to reconsider my front surrounds to maybe the Paradigm Studio 20's and hopefully set them up for good 2 channel listening also. I'm pretty set on my first 2 purchases right now. They would be the CD player and I do need a new sub in my theater. My current is a Yamaha SWT80 (or something), but it sounded like a machine gun when we watched the latest Harry Potter. A sub in the great room really isn't an option for me for a multitude of reasons, but I did consider it. The sub I at the top of my list right now is the Outlaw LFM-1. My understanding is that Dr. Hsu helped design it also. I should have been a little more descriptive about my mounting of the A60's. They will actually be on stands, until I decide exactly what speakers are going to end up in the great room. The A60's will likely go back to the kitchen, and a new set of speakers (Monitor Titans, Studio 20's?) will be mounted. They won't be mounted directly to the wall. I will either use store bought mounts, or I may make some pedestals that I can mount the speakers to. I have the house to myself for a few hours tonite, so the change will start tonite! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11999 Registered: May-04 | . " My thoughts are to add a 2 channel amp & pre-amp and connect my front surrounds to this combo. Then connect the amp to the front surround pre-amp outs of the AVR so they would also be used for surround sound. But, 2 channel stereo would play only thru the amp/pre-amp/cd player, and not involve the AVR. Is this correct/possible?" OK, "front surrounds" are just fronts, right? If that's the case the logic of the hook up is OK other than you've not accounted for how the two pre amps feed one amplifier. Does the power amplifier have dual stereo inputs? Will you install a switch? Just be very careful never to have both pre amps on at the same time? . |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 19 Registered: Sep-06 | Yes, just the L & R. I have more homework to do to figure this out, got it. I just shot myself in the foot last nite. I made my first speaker move last nite. I reset-up the BA's in the theater room, and didn't like the way the EZ-Q Setup did. It set the towers to small with a 100hz crossover. Set the CC290 center to large with a 60hz crossover. Anyway, I messed with the setting, set them to small, but set the crossover to 60hz on the towers, and upped to 100hz on the center. Doesn't really matter, because I put my receiver in bypass mode to listen to 2 channel. (On HDMI 1 thru my Tosh A2) Now I can't get it back to the appropriate surround mode for HD DVD's! It's stuck in bypass, and won't let me change the surround setting on the OSD or at the Receiver. I even reset the receiver with no success. It's always something, right? |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 978 Registered: Jun-07 | Wierd- Is there a hard reset that you can do? Or did you already do that? It usually involves holding down a few buttons while turning it off. I would contact somebody. Set the towers and center both to small at 80hz. |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 20 Registered: Sep-06 | Yeah, I did the hard reset. As soon as I turned it back on with the DVD the settings went back. And I sent an email off to HK support. I'll call if I don't hear back from them today. Once it's corrected, I'll set the fronts to small & 80. Thanks. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12003 Registered: May-04 | . Try just unplugging the HK from the AC outlet. Don't just trun the unit off as it probably has a standby mode with a trickle of voltage going into the unit. If the receiver is on a switched outlet, you can just power down the outlet. Completely let the unit drain off all stored AC energy for about one hour. If that doesn't work, then you'll need HK's help. . |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1012 Registered: May-06 | TT, a little compassion and history lesson on my experiences with Wife Acceptance Factor "WAF". I moved to Dallas and set up into a 900 sq.ft. apartment about 7 months ahead of my wife. When she arrived her first impression was that 18 speakers in that setting were excessive. Soon moved from apartment to 2 story house. Today I have my "dual room". HT in wall set up was an arbitrary option in the new home. Klipsh fronts and surround in wall with added subs and center channel. I had my two-channel superimposed with my HT set up using seperate pre-amp, amp, and speakers, and sharing sources. Jan kept beating on me until I had to move my 2 channel to the side of the room facing in lengthwise (paralleling the longest walls). I no longer share sources either. Now where was I going with this? Good grief, sorry had a Nuck moment there. Oh yeah, going back to WAF. My "Great Room" has a wall opening which we installed cabinetry to set the flat panel on top of next to the fireplace. Below stores the equipment, cable box, Turn-table, CD player, DVD player, Marantz 2 channel receiver. The speakers? You are going to love this. WAF = Sub and Mirage Omnistats set on top of cabinet in wall opening BEHIND the flat panel, completely out of sight. Dude, it works and keeps the peace. No imaging issues, it all sounds fairly mono, but the sound quality is pretty sweet all things considered. Now, don't you appreciate your wife's willingness to work with you on this a little better? That is of course if you do not let her read this post.  |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 21 Registered: Sep-06 | Jan - done, and done! I unplugged the receiver and dvd when I got home from work until I got home from skeet league. Plugged back in, dropped in the HD demo disk from my local shop and it went right to DTS! Now I just have to reset with the EZeq, and tweak from there. MW - Great story. I haven't exposed all my stuff yet, but my WAF is pretty high. I had "leftover" surround pieces, and a less than 1 year old 32 Samsung HD LCD in my bedroom. My wife aquired an older solid cherry entertainment center that matched our bedroom furniture. We didn't use it in the conventional way, but put the TV on top with the HD cable box, and I have my Carver components in the ETC for whole house sound inside. I moved one of my Yamaha DD receivers inside also connected to a pair of Paradigm Micros and an older Paradigm center channel, oh, and a leftover Yamaha sub. I haven't gone as far as to connect the in ceiling speakers in my bedroom for the rears yet, due to my wife using them for music while getting ready, but who knows what the future holds! I had to set the center behind the tv, though, but with a few adjustments it sounds great for a bedroom setup. And, the wife actually loves it. Funny how they are, huh? Since I'm still in the "testing" mode with the speakers and such, I'll have a lot more research to do before I have my dual room completed. Jan brought up a good point I hadn't thought of about having 2 sources feeding one amp, so I'll have to figure that all out, when the time comes. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12013 Registered: May-04 | . Sounds like you're making progress, TT. Go back and read my description of "zones". |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 22 Registered: Sep-06 | You know, it really sucks when you try to accomplish a relatively simple goal, and end up in worse shape than when you started. I am so disgusted right now. My local stereo shop gave me a sample HDDVD of live performances. They played it in one of their sound rooms through a few Anthem 225wpc amps and some speakers I hadn't hear of before. It sounded wonderful. I thought I would be disappointed when I got home and threw it in my HDDVD through my Paradigm CC290 center and BA A60's. I was extremely surprised that it sounded great! I noticed more difference in my PQ than my SQ, not that it was as good, but it was good. So, I started the auditioning change, and moved my Boston Towers to the theater, and the A60's to the great room. I listened to the A60's thru my Carver components with Alicia Keyes new CD. Since the A60's are on stands they are above the couch, and sounded surprisingly good. Not as "room filling" but clear and detailed. I could actually hear the different instruments centered, left and right. Went to the theater and hooked up the BA Towers. Stupidly, I didn't replay the HDDVD with the towers, and instead adjusted my receiver to bypass mode (no processing or bass management)and played the Alicia Keyes CD on my HDDVD player. First, it sounded like I was listening to a turntable. So I really couldn't audition my 2 channel without better source for now. So I go to change back the surround settings to listen to the sample HDDVD, and my problem from my previous post arose. I got the receiver reset, but now it sounds like crap. Very thin and tinny. The sub is on and I can hear it playing on my hands & knees, but I can't really tell any difference whether it's on or off. I told my wife last nite that I feel something is missing between my eyes and above my nose, an no, not my brain. I feel a sound emptyness or lack of pressure in that area while I'm watching & listening. I did my EZeq set up. It set my main & rears to small and my center to large. The crossovers were set at 100 for the surrounds and 40 for the center. I changed them all to 80 and small. Prior to my screwing around, when I turned on my sub, it would complete the soundfield. Now, it doesn't seem to do anything. According to my manual, the sub is set to "LFE" and all speakers are small, so all the low frequencies are to be sent to the sub. I have another sub in my bedroom that I'm going to try tonite, to see if it is the sub. It has been clipping pretty bad in movies and music at moderate levels, maybe it's gone. Although it still plays white noise in the setup and when I press the test button. For my sanity, I moved the BA60's back to the theater last nite to see if it was the speakers, no change. Sounds very thin and tinny, and doesn't feel like you are being enveloped by the sound as before. Very, very frustrating, but at least I haven't spent any money yet. I think I have about 1/3 of my owners manual committed to memory. The wife and kids will be out tonite, so I'll be trying to work it out this evening. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 997 Registered: Jun-07 | Good luck. The center channel should never be set to anything but Small. And everything should be on the same crossover. THe crossover number depends on your sub. Sounds like your little sub is kicking the curb. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12022 Registered: May-04 | . I disagree with Nick as far as crossover points. If you have the ability to set different crossovers for different speakers, do so. The speakers typically aren't the same across the surround field and certainly aren't in the same acoustic environment. I'm more for doing what sounds good than any predetermined numbers. You might try getting the receiver back to its default settings as it came from the factory. There's usually a simple method to accomplish this by hitting a few buttons in your set up menu. It requires going back to re-set all your preferences but it's sometimes easier than trying to get from where you are to where you were. Good luck. . |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 23 Registered: Sep-06 | Alright! I spent my lunch hour (or so) testing. I reset the receiver, didn't do the EZeq set up, but set it up myself. I didn't exactly measure the speaker distance, rather estimated them. Set everything to 80 & small. What sounded best to me was the lower I went on the BA's, and ended up crossing them over at 40. (Much to my embarassment I referred to my BA towers as T945's but they are actually T930's, original version with tweeter on top, not the II's) I also grabbed my extra sub from my bedroom to do some testing. I ended up pushing the sub output +8 on the OSD menu. That helped with filling the room. I played the HDDVD disk (Pat Maheney is one of the artists) and it sounded pretty good. I will continue the tweaking. I also swithed from HDMI audio to Optical audio for HD & SD TV. It sounded better to me thru the optical. All HDMI for the HDDVD. I think I'm ready to pull the trigger on a new sub. I am more interested in a musical sub than a "chest thumper". Anything should be a decent upgrade to my current Yamaha, but my research is guiding me to the Outlaw LFM-1 due to budget/performance. Then a little more listening, and I may be ready to audition a few CD players. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12030 Registered: May-04 | . http://us.f810.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?MsgId=1097_10450488_40798_2309_8385_ 0_26893_29252_4251126394&Idx=0&YY=52627&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&inc=50&order=down& sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&box=Inbox |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 24 Registered: Sep-06 | OK guys, I pulled the trigger yesterday on a new sub and cd player. I went to my local shop yesterday to talk and listen. They carry the brands I was interested in; NAD, Paradigm, Anthem, and Velodyne. I compared various subs from Velodyne, Paradigm, Klipsh, and Boston. The tightest, cleanest, and most transparent was the 10" Velodyne, which ended up being a little more than I wanted to spend, but I think I got a great deal on the 525Bee. Anyway, I listened to these subs via an Anthem 225 wpc amp (MCA20?) with Paradigm Monitor Atoms V5 (the newest version), and a Pioneer Elite CD player. I will qualify my next statements by saying that I am more a mid-fi audiophile, than a hi-fi audiophile. So, I realize there are much better products (and much worse), but they are outside of my pricerange. That being said, I was blown away by these tiny 5.5" mid-bass, 2 way speakers, even without the sub! The seperation of the mid-bass and highs was amazing, to me. I asked if this was due to the new design, or the source/amp combination. He wasn't really informative about this. Anyway, the sub I chose was a Velodyne DLS3750-R, which is 185 watts with a digital processor and 4 DSP programs. So I ordered the CD player and brought the sub home for set-up. Put it in the system, ran my EZ-eq program, and it set up my BA towers as small with 120 crossovers, my Paradigm CC290 center as large with a 60 crossover and the rears as small with 100 crossover. I currently have the sub on the sidewall about 1/3 the length of the room from the front wall. This is going to change, as soon as my longer interconnect comes. I've been researching speaker placement, per Jan's direction, and have been messing with that. I've also messed with the crossovers and speaker sizes. Set all to small with crossovers at 40, 60, & 80 for the L/R/C. Just not finding nirvana right now. Now to my issues. I am going to start placing the sub in different areas of the room, starting with the screen wall. The sub sounds ok in my setup, but I can "find" it with my ears. It was the only one that seemed to blend in with the mains at the showroom. I know I have a lot of testing and adjusting to do, along with placement. The thing that's bugging me a little is that overall, I can't seem to attain the "great" sound I had previously. It now seems to be a little muttled, and the sub doesn't seem to blend in well with the dialogue, as it had before, which in turn makes the dialogue seem a bit harsh. I know, setup, setup, setup. I had it before, I will get it again. The big problem, was how those little Atoms sounded in the showroom. Although the Mini-Monitors will match the drivers in my center channel. But, I'm not going to spend more money, until I get this system sounding good. Now, I understand from the beginning of this post that the importance of quality sound goes in this order. Speakers>source>amp/pre, and setup & placement falls on all. So, I'm hoping that once I get my new CD player and get my setup/placment complete, that it will be a noticeable difference. By the way, the best price I found on the 525bee on the net was 299 for a refurb. My local dealer sold me a non-refurb for $260. It should be here before the weekend. I was hoping this would be the end, at least for a while, but it seems like it's just the beginning. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1031 Registered: Jun-07 | Thom T. Good pick up on the 525bee. Amazing for its price. Source is always first, even before speakers. Which Paradigm subs were you listening to? For the sub setup, place the sub in the spot you normally would sit to listen to your system. Play some music with constant bass. Get on your hands and knees and crawl around your room. Where you hear the most low end, place the sub there. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12073 Registered: May-04 | . I would place the speakers at the end of the line as far as quality of sound goes if you follow the logic of garbage in = garbage out. Very good components at the end of the line only serve to demonstrate the weaker links in the chain in front of them. Your question as to what made the Atoms sound so good is representative of that thought process. The redesign of the Atom has been widely regarded as a significant step above the previous models and the Anthem is exceptionally good gear. One component was able to clear the way for the other to show its strengths. If it hasn't been stated before, system building is about synergy and allowing each component to build on the strengths of the others and minimize the weaknesses of all others. I would expect a decent source to sound quite transparent and very engaging when running through superior electronics and high value speakers. Would the Atoms sound as transparent in your present room? I don't know but I suspect they would be a positive step forward over the BA towers in most ways I would personally consider important. If you felt comfortable with this shop, TT, you might ask their advice when you pick up the 525. Obviously, I don't know the competency of this shop or salesperson (that there was no clear explanation for what was happening with the system sound is bothersome) but it's typically easier to make suggestions face to face rather than over a forum. The problem becomes getting too many opinions which take you in too many directions. Briefly, here's what I would do based on what I understand to be the case as of now. Find the best location for the sub and your listening position. One is tied to the other. Start with the sub in one front corner and walk the room listening for peaks and nulls. (I prefer getting the sub off the floor but the room determines what you should do. If you raise the sub, it must be rigidly fixed in space both for safety and performance.) Determine where you should sit for best bass performance and best soundstaging. Unless the seats are bolted to the floor, don't be afraid to move furniture. Relocate the sub if need be and check for performance in your listening position. Do your speaker set up. I would suggest the W.A.S.P. system will give the best results in most rooms. When you set up speakers, movements as small is 1/4" in any direction can make a tremendous difference in how the system "gels". If you don't have spikes on the BA towers, you should secure them to the floor in some manner. Don't use the rubber bumper feet that came with the speakers if you can avoid it. After you have established the position of the listening chair, the speakers and the sub, you are half way home. Listen only in stereo as you try various crossover set ups. Get the front correct before you add anything else. My preference is to run the speakers full range with the sub crossed into the system as low as possible. Your situation can easily be unfriendly to this arrangement so determine what works best for your room. But a 120Hz cross from the sub allows the subwoofer to output signal as high as 500Hz if the crossover is a second order design and as high as 300Hz with a fourth order crossover. Both of these crossovers will make the sub all too "locate-able" as the sub will be working into the vocal range of male and female voices. After you have the crossover set for the fronts, add the center and then the rears. When you pick up the 525 ask about a loan of the Atoms and a very good pair of stands. I think you'll find they improve on what the BA's can do. They might not be the perfect match for your room but they will give you more ideas of where to head next. Let us know what happens. . |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 25 Registered: Sep-06 | Nick - I asked the shop if they had the newer Paradigm DSP-3100, but they said they could order it, but don't have any on stock. I noticed a PDR-12 in one of the rooms, and figured if I liked it, I may be able to get a "good deal". I think it went a little deeper than the Velodyne, but it wasn't as tight or transparent, to me. I printed out the W.A.S.P speaker placement info. Thank God my theater is in the basement with no windows! I'll also try the sub in the seating position trick. I would assume that additional connections in general are bad. ie: rca wall jack for the sub? I have all my wires installed in the walls, but don't have enough length to get to the front wall right now, or the seating position for that matter. My choices are to get a longer sub cable and pull in through the wall with the existing cable, and then run it along the baseboard to its' final resting place, or to use the existing sub cable and install a wall mounted RCA jack. The thing that perplexes me right now is that, I had the system sounding very good to me. Once I set up the HDMI to Stereo and had to reset and unplug, it just doesn't seem as musical. When I pick up my CD player, I'm going to ask about borrowing the Atoms and/or the Mini's. But, I'm going to exhaust my abilities to get it setup to sound great before I spend any more money. I am still considering the Anthem PVA line of amplifiers in the future, using my AVR as a pre for now and upgrading to a pre/pro in the future and moving the AVR to the bedroom. I do have a good set of stands that I bought with my first pair of Paradigm Micros, so I'll use them if I can audition the Mini's or Atoms. And, both my stands and the BA towers have spikes. Jan, I think the crossovers have me most confused. I know that my AVR processes the crossover to the sub, but the sub has a dial for the crossover also. I have it set at "direct" which is its' highest setting, but also, its' bypass setting, I believe. I pulled up the specs, and it doesn't mention X-order crossover. High Pass Crossover(Digital): 80 or 100 Hz(6 dB/octave slope) Low Pass Crossover(Digital): 40 Hz-120 Hz (adjustable)(12 dB octave, 24 dB ultimate) Don't know if that makes any difference, but I will be 'tweaking'. I think I set the L/R/C to large and crossed the sub @ 120 with the sub at 'direct' last nite, which sounded ok. Thanks a million for all the help! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12079 Registered: May-04 | . As a rule you want to let the processor do the crossover work. Set the crossover control on the sub to it's maximum which essentially takes it out of the circuit. That means when you set the processor to cross at 80Hz, the only thing affecting that crossover is the slope provided by the processor. If the processor has a second order roll off (most do), then the signal fed to the sub will be down twelve dB by the first octave away from the 80Hz crossover point, or -12dB @ 160Hz. That should be sufficient to keep the sub from being to prominent in the midrange. If you need to take the sub out faster, you can use the subwoofer's crossover to add additional roll off to the signal fed to the sub. I don't understand the dual roll out that's quoted for your sub but it looks like it will provide at least another twelve dB per octave roll out. Setting the processor and the sub to 80Hz will ultimately give you a -24dB roll out on the sub and it will be all but out of the signal path by 120Hz. I can't determine over the forum what you will need or prefer so just play for awhile. For my own system I start with the speakers set to "large" and at the lowest setting possible for the crossover (usually 40Hz) and work my way upwards while listening to various types of music. I then set the speakers to "small" and repeat the set up. Somewhere in there I can find what I like. After you have it, mark it down somewhere. One problem with processors is too many adjustments that can suddenly disappear. Make certain you have the sub's "phase" control set to provide the most seamless integration between sub and mains. "I would assume that additional connections in general are bad. ie: rca wall jack for the sub?" Not for testing. And not at all if the connections are tight and good. The best is simply a straight wire because there are fewer locations to go bad over time. But a cheap interconnect long enough to use while testing is fine. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9598 Registered: Dec-04 | Thom, the low pass @12db is a second order sub. Ultimate24db(4th order) is better, but I dont understand the 'ultimate' part. |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 26 Registered: Sep-06 | Well gents, all I can say is...THANKS. I hit a homerun tonite. I pulled my extra equipment and connected it in the theater to the BA Towers, Paradigm Micros, and BA A60's. The 525Bee sounded great and detailed, but a little harsh with the highs. I replaced the Towers with the Micros and I got a deeper and wider soundstage, but still not what I was looking for. I wasn't sure if it was 1) the cd player 2) the receiver 3) the speakers or 4) the room. Regardless I had testing to do, and I got it done tonite. Here's what I found. 1) I made the bypass settings on the receiver instead thru the OSD. I finally found the true bypass mode. My Towers didn't sound muffled anymore, they had great range with clear detailed highs and mids and deep tight bass. No harshness, I eliminated the cd player. Damn finicky reciever! I think thru the OSD, it still went thru the processor in bypass mode. The bass was very dull and muffled, as if the crossover was still being processed, but not any more! 2) Since I liked the sound of the BA Towers thru my Carver receiver, I connected it into the theater, to see if the problems I was having were due to the room or receiver. I A/B'd it against the HK AVR, and although I liked them both, the HK was more to my liking, clearer & more defined. (This was after I got the bypass setting to take, otherwise the Carver would have beat the HK hands down) 3) I leaned forward from the couch as I was doing these tests. I found that the soundstage became fuller when I leaned forward. I then sat on the floor in front of my couch, and the sound higher or taller. I took out my nifty laser level and shot a mark on the back wall. I used my 4' level to figure out how much lower my head was when I was sitting on the floor and I adjusted the spikes on the speakers to tilt them back to adjust the laser to shoot to the higher mark. Wow! Not only was the 2 channel fantastic, to me, but hdtv was a whole different ballgame also. My wife was speechless as we sat in the dark and listened to Jewel. I also spread the speakers out another 8 or so inches which really helped widen the stage. After that, I collected up all my extra components, reconnected the Carver in the bedroom, and returned to the theater to enjoy. All my wife could say is, "now, don't screw it up!" So, I've got my initial good tweak. I'll continue to mess with it, until it gets a little better or I screw it up and have to start all over. lol. Back to the amp talk. I understand that this is just a good step to a long obsession with audio equipment. I would like to eventually get to a seperate 2 channel system, as recommended, but I'll have to do it in stages. (amp, pre-amp, speakers) I've heard the Anthem amplifiers at my local shop, and they really made the Paradigm speakers sing, but I also have an affliction for the older Carver equipment. I can't hear the Carver equipment, but it seems readily available, for reasonable prices on ebay & audiogon. There is also a repair center, although I understand that if I did need a refurb, the costs savings would amount to $0, or less. Why am I considering the Carver Equipment? I could say it was the musicality, but I really haven't listened to any Carver equipment, other than my current receiver since the mid-90's. (And, after starting this thread, I realized that I probably haven't really listened to music in general, for a really long time!) So, I guess it's just a thing with me. I've read thru some older posts of some members having Carver equipment, and speaking highly of it. So, basically, I had a budget for new speakers. I don't plan on using that right now, so I may have some disposable income to purchase an amp. My local dealer gave me a decent price on the Anthem (PVA2), but again, I would be able to buy a pair of used Carvers for about the same money. Specifically, my considerations for the Carver amps would be the M1.0t, m1.5t, m500(t), or TFM x5. Thoughts? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1075 Registered: Jun-07 | Thoughts...One..good job on the room adjustments...two Buy the Anthem. It will sound better than the carver stuff, especially with the Paradigm speakers, and its new...with a warranty...and a dealer backing it..and for the same price you say? Need I say more? Buy the Anthem. You are doing very well. Keep it up. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12123 Registered: May-04 | . Like I said at the beginning of this thread, I can't give you model numbers of gear you'll like. I won't even suggest whether you should like the Carver since I've made my feelings rather well known about Carver. Give the Anthem a good listen and decide. If you're seriously considering two channel, there are so many options that suggestions are, IMO, just a starting point. There are lots of very good brands out there. You've covered a lot of ground in a short time. Take a breather, listen to what you've got and make your decision. . |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 27 Registered: Sep-06 | Nick & Jan - good points, thanks. I was pretty jazzed last nite, so my thoughts were pretty short. But what a nite & day difference speaker placement and positioning made. Best of all, just my time. My HK receiver is pretty finicky, but does sound nice. It had a lot to do with the problems. I just hope the settings stay put. I guess it's the room treatments that keep my towers from getting boomy. The highs and bass are tight and crisp, which I like. These speakers seem to go pretty low, but not boomy like the sub sounds. This "listening" is all pretty new to me. So, yes, I'll sit back and enjoy for a while. Jan, I've researched a lot info this past weekend, but I didn't come across any specific info of yours against Carver. Is it the old/new, or do you not like the sound, or?. Just curious. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12124 Registered: May-04 | . When I say anything about certain brands, I seem to get a lot of posts asking why I don't like what someone else prefers. Well, there can be lots of reasons since we all have the ability to hear different qualities and choose which of those qualities suit our preferences and priorities to the fullest degree. Keep in mind I sold audio for almost 25 years and so my job was to listen and find what qualities I felt any one component possessed whether I liked those qualities or not. Now let's go back to the front of this thread and your username that first caught my attention. I had a '72 Chevelle that I loved. I knew the dealer and we went through the order book at the time and produced a SS that was trimmed out to my tastes which at the time meant going fast in a straight line. With a little bit of modification it proved to be one of the better cars in my area at that task and left quite a few people wondering how that inexpensive car bested theirs. It was a very simple priority and a very simple test of performance, either I got there before he did or I didn't. My situation changed and I needed a car that got more than 12 M.P.G. on the highway. I settled on a '75 Honda Civic CVCC. If I remember right it had 65 horsepower, a fraction of what I just got out of. It took me about one day's time to find out I couldn't get into a curve as fast in the Civic as I could the Chevelle but I could come out on the other side of the curve at a higher speed than I could in the Chevelle. The nimble handling of the Civic eventually saved my life in a wreck with a Suburban driver who was running from the police. While I still remember my Chevelle with fondness, I've never driven a car that couldn't maneuver out of harm's way again. I won't enumerate here my ideas of what the Carver does less pleasantly or less well compared to other lines since that would set you on a course of listening for those issues. I believe I suggested at the front of the thread that you refresh you aural memory of live music as you began making decisions about what sounded right and what did not. What gave the impression of real music and not a hifi. That would still be my suggestion. You seem to have the ability to pick out small improvements in sound quality so I would simply say trust your ears. Unlike the Chevelle where the most important subjective decision is about the driving experience and who arrives first an audio system must convince you of something it doesn't possess but merely lets pass through. That's where I find too many listeners getting hung up. They listen to audio as if it were the only thing that mattered when in fact the components shouldn't draw attention to themself at all. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/431447.html Listen and then decide, TT. Keep us informed and good luck. . |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 28 Registered: Sep-06 |  That's my baby. It's a 'restofication', as I eliminated the stainless trim and emblems, and I did some custom touches to the interior. The paint is Dark Montana Blue base with three coats of Violet Pearl for the midcoat, and multiple coats of clear. It looks dark blue - black in the dark & shade and pops a deep metallic purple in the sun. The last time I was at the track, the rear end locked up on me and I went sliding thru the lights over 100 mph. Pulled the rear, tranny & motor. Rebuilt the tranny and motor, but never found what the problem was, so I've been tentative about going back. My best time was 13.5 @ 100.xx mph. Small block 355, 650 double pumper and Edelbrock aluminum heads. I drove it home a month before my oldest was born (over 13 years ago)and tore it down to the frame, and then spent 8 years rebuilding it from the bottom up. I wish I could get 12 mpg! Fair enough about the Carver equipment. I think even without details, I know what your saying. Your suggestion about listening has been very helpful. Even my wife, who was very disturbed to see 3 sets of speakers, 3 receivers, and 2 CD players, with a rats nest of speaker wires & interconnects on the theater floor last nite, was amazed at how different and good everything sounded, after I made the final changes. I'm going to enjoy, and keep my eyes open for a good deal. I'll see where that takes me. Jan, if you'd like a suggestion of a nice hp/handling vehicle, take a look at the Subaru WRX offerings. 300 hp, all wheel drive, in a nimble package. Mitsubishi has a similar offering, and they are both pretty awesome. I can't let my muscle car brethren hear me say that though! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12125 Registered: May-04 | . The Chevelle looks very nice, TT, and gets my heart pumpin' peanut butter. It seems like 12 m.p.g. was the max I could get but back then, with gas at 35 cents a gallon, who cared? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9647 Registered: Dec-04 | TT, great ride! Did you massage the bodywork yourself? It's the STi @300 hp, up a tick in price from the WRX. |
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Platinum Member Username: WingmanaliveA pic is worth 1000 posts!! Post Number: 12643 Registered: Jun-06 | THAT is a sweet car man!! |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 29 Registered: Sep-06 | Thanks all. Yes, I did most of the work myself. I didn't have a paint booth, (at the time) so another guy painted it for me. I started doing body & paint work at 13. Jan, even at $3.25/gallon, I still don't care...until I have to stop at the pump! Another slight update. I bought the Queen Greatest Hits Platinum Collection yesterday. I need to do a little more listening, but I can't seem to get enough bass. Very harsh & thin. I go back to my other test CD's, Alicia Keyes - No one, Jewel - Foolish Games and the bass is there. I am not sure if it's the reciever being finicky again, or if it's the tracks themselves. (I may have to reconnect a few different recievers again this weekend) I did play the cd in my Carver system in the great room, and it was still a bit thin, but a little deeper. I am also thinking it may be my room treatments. Get ready......I have 2 bass traps in the corners of the front walls (directly behind the front surrounds) They are 1/4 cylinders based on approximately 24" diameter, from floor to ceiling, 7.5", filled with cellulose insulation. I may try putting a more reflective material in front of the traps to see what it does. That leads me back to my BA Towers. They are sealed. (ie: no port(s).) My understanding of this is that they should produce more accurate bass, but not as "filling" or "feeling". Yes? And, another thing. I came across an old post of Art's, I believe. It basically outlined how to connect the NAD 272/162 combination where the 2 channel would play only thru the NAD components, and the AVR was connected "as yet antoher source component hooked up to the video or aux on your pre and to power the center and rears. Leave the AVR off completely when listening to 2 channel. I go from the L/R front pre-outs on teh AVR to the video in on my NAD C162 Pre. The C162 has 2 sets of pre outs. I use 1 set to go to the power amp and the other to go to the sub so that I have use of the sub for both 2 channel and home theater......" Any thoughts on this setup????? |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 30 Registered: Sep-06 | I took a look at the Anthem TLP-1/PVA 2 owners manuals, and seems I can do the same with that set up. Not that I'm jumping in, just acquiring future options, and my dealer carries both. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12131 Registered: May-04 | . Don't be concerned about one CD. Possibly someone else has that CD and will chime in; otherwise, it's just a bad recording. Your room treatments sound OK. Corners are the first to be treated since bass tends to "collect" in those areas. Damping those areas will make for "better" bass and I've yet to hear a room that didn't benefit from some amount of acoustic treatment. There's no doubt sealed systems sound different than vented enclosures. But the difference is mainly in the bass roll off below system resonance. When the woofer reaches it resonant frequency for any given driver/enclosure combination, the driver essentially stands still at that point. Below that frequency the system rolls out gradually. In a sealed system, where the backwave of the woofer cannot interfere with the direct output of the driver, this is accomplished through a second order acoustic filter with approximately -12dB roll out. In a vented system the roll out is approximately twice that rate or -24dB per octave. Placing a sealed system in a room is quite often simpler since there are no backwaves from the woofer to contend with. The vented system achieves a higher efficiency by allowing the rear wave of the woofer to exit through the vent and contribute to the speakers overall output, although it eventually is its downfall since the backwave is increasingly out of phase with the driver's direct output as frequency decreases and wavelength increases. However, the accuracy of the system is determined by the designer and is given the name "Q" or "Qts" of the system. Speakers with a high "Q" will sound different than speakers with a low "Q" even within the same design style. A sealed enclosure with a high system "Q" will tend to sound lumpy in the midbass (where most bass energy exists- particularly in rock and pop) while a sealed system with a low system "Q" will be overly dry and overly damped leading to the overall impression of not enough bass. The designer models his system around a system "Q" that allows good bass extension and the system sound desired. It is not uncommon for most mass market speakers to have a rather high "Q" which provides a slightly full bass sound that tends to sell well in showrooms. But to say one type of enclosure does something another does not or sounds more accurate than another in terms of bass qauality is overlooking some very basic and important facts. The designer has several parameters to work with and they are combined to make a system that itself has multiple parameters to manipulate. While most people can hear the basic difference between the fast roll off of a vented system vs. the more gradual roll out of a sealed system, or the chuffing of a port vs. the sound of the compressed "air spring" in the sealed system, both can produce excellent bass response when the parameters are manipulated with talent. As to Art's connection, on the cface of it, it doesn't make complete sense to me. But give it a try. As long as two component's outputs are not seeing each other - if everything is done as input to output/output to input - there should be no problem. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12132 Registered: May-04 | . Take your owner's manuals to your dealer and they can probably lay out how the connection should be made. |
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New member Username: MsgtpogiNJ Post Number: 7 Registered: Jan-08 | Just to give my 2 cents on Carver equipment: Their ads are all techno mumbo-jumbo stuff that promise you the equivalent of fine champagne for beer budget. As an engineer, Bob Carver the man is very inventive but Carver the company uses as much cheap components as they can get away with in their products. Carver and Bose are great at marketing. They are not great at making good sounding audio products. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9663 Registered: Dec-04 | A lot of people like them just fine. |
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New member Username: MsgtpogiNJ Post Number: 8 Registered: Jan-08 | I've talked to people who carried Carver who claimed that customers were returning gear for repair work more often than any brand they carried. My bro had their tuner, TX11 I believe, that wouldn't bring in stations clearly. I've inspected some of their gear and came away not impressed with build quality. The amps I've heard had what seemed like nice power in the lower registers but thin sounding in the mids. The highs were not as clean as competitors amps. In contrast, Sunfire, a later Bob Carver company, made products that performed better. I have met Mr Carver at a "seminar" for the Cube subwoofer a few years ago. He sounded like he didn't want his name associated too much with the Carver company which I believe he sold a few years back. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1079 Registered: Jun-07 | Sunfire products are great. In which, Bob also sold Sunfire just recently to Crestron. Never personally heard the Carver amps myself. But do know a few people who have owned them and enjoyed them. To each their own I guess. |
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Bronze Member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 49 Registered: Sep-06 | Here's an update from the past 2 months. I researched and watched ebay & audiogon. I found a few good deals, and decided to give 'em a try, and turn them if I didn't like them. I had a few setbacks while I was buying. 1) My Carver receiver quit working, and is currently awaiting repair. 2) My BA towers needed refoamed. I finished that up a few weeks ago. 3) My wife and I decided to add a WII to the theater. It may be surprising, but here goes: New equipment: Paradigm Mini-Monitor v.4 Carver TFM-45 amp Carver M-500 amp Carver CT-6 pre Acurus A200X3 I know that you guys tried to dissuade me from the Carver equipment, but I made the decision based on few things. 1) I got the above amps/pre for about the same price as the Anthem combo. 2) The Carver amps were professionally refurbed. 3) If you look on ebay and audiogon, I don't believe I'll lose money if I resell and go to something else. 4) There is an service center for Carver in Wash. state (I think), and one for Acurus in Md or Va. So, you ask, how is it all setup? I have the M-500 powering the front L&R (Mini-Monitors) and the Acurus powering the center and rears. The HK 247 is being used as pre/pro, and I'm very pleased with this setup. I seperated the 2 channel, which is comprised of the TFM-45, CT-6, Nad 525, and a leftover DVD changer when we want to listen to a greater selection of music, all playing thru the BA towers. The issues I was having with the harsh highs when I was trying to integrate my 2 channel & home theater ended up being the HK reciever. The thread on the amp shootout that Nick or Nuck did, confirmed similar results. Now that Queen cd sounds excellent, as well as, Norah Jones and all the others. I'm sure this is just a step in a long journey. I've been researching speakers. I think I have it narrowed down to 3 or 4, and will have to wait until I rebuild my funds. The WII was a great addition. My wife and I (sometimes we let the kids play too) play TW Golf, bowling and tennis. I fire up the 2 channel system, we put in our favorites and get lost for a few hours. She actually said to me, a few days ago, "I thought you were nuts with all that equipment in the theater room, but now I don't think I could do without the stereo setup while we're playing the WII!" I guess I did something right! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12399 Registered: May-04 | . Congrats. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1213 Registered: May-06 | Sweet! The Carver repair center is in Oregon. Look up Roland Barr. |
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New member Username: PeterheadPost Number: 3 Registered: Apr-08 | Thom, Jan has serious mental health issues so don't be surprised at his rantings and ravings. Check some of his posts. He constantly assumes a superior attitude and looks down on those who ask basic questions. Then along come his followers, Nuck, Gavin Wodek and others. Makes this forum suck. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9987 Registered: Dec-04 | So you are here why? |
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New member Username: PeterheadPost Number: 5 Registered: Apr-08 | To"discountenance the haughty". John Adams. And to spread a little truth to the masses disabusing them of the bullshitarianism preached by you, Vigne, Wodek and a host of other sadly misguided, poor excuse for human beings. |
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Bronze Member Username: FunkmeisterPost Number: 67 Registered: Nov-07 | Ah sooky, sooky now. I likes that John Boy. |
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Silver Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 230 Registered: Aug-06 | . |
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New member Username: JvignePost Number: 2 Registered: Apr-08 | I would go with the NAD. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 212 Registered: Jul-07 | Great job Thom. "Jan has serious mental health issues so don't be surprised at his rantings and ravings." Jan has mental health issues ? John Boy/Jimmy/John seems to be the one who's a few bricks short of a load. Oh, and you used John twice. For heaven's sake, there's like a ba-zillion names to pick from. For you, I'd recommend Loretta. Although, I have to admit. The NAD thing was pretty funny. |
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New member Username: JvignePost Number: 7 Registered: Apr-08 | Whatchutalkinbout Chris? Dude, get a life. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 176 Registered: Oct-07 | somebody off there meds? |
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New member Username: EznowOgdensburg, NY US Post Number: 1 Registered: May-08 | Last week I bought a set of KLH Model 5, 8 ohm suspension speakers at a yard sale for $5 bucks. I figured I have nothing to lose except $5 bucks. Can anyone tell me what amplifier will best drive these old speakers? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10282 Registered: Dec-04 | Pretty much anything, Steve, just to get them sorted out and see if all is well with them. Those KLH are a very easy load, I recall, so a reasonable receiver would be ok to see how you like them. |
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