Monitor Audio Auditions, price point, performance, bass
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Bronze Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 92 Registered: Apr-04 | Monitor Audio Auditions I re-auditioned the Monitor Audio line at Good Guys this morning. There is a variable working against a fair audition process at GG and that variable is named Monster Cable. The very long runs used and the outrageous mid-range sonic bulge so characteristic of Monster Cable interconnects and speaker cables made for some slightly unfair auditions. The Gold $4K (60 Ref) and $3K (20 Ref) models have a sweet clear treble and a detailed and open refinement in the midrange. Both square edge cabinets exhibit at least some diffraction. This is bothersome, as much less expensive Paradigm speakers at least have little gadgets to help remedy driver diffraction. Both models play loudly, esp the 60 and overall sound quite fine. BUT, at those price points, LOW bass is rather skimpy to borderline anemic and I was left thinking they needed more "oomph" and slam in the lower midrange and bass. The 20 though, is a coherent, clean, detailed performer, pricey to be sure, minor cabinet diffraction given it's square edges but it too is deficient in the LOWER bass for $3k; but is very good with chamber, ensemble and duo/trio material. I gave the B4 and B2 (Bronze) another CD workover with different music material and for $400 and $600 they can promptly be outclassed and outperformed by similarly priced models from Paradigm, PSB, BW, KEF's Tannoy or such. The Silvers presented a strange mix of price point results. The attractive S6 with it's top and bottom rear firing ports, gave good bass, but it became increasingly "chuffy" at lower frequencies. The S8 was a fine performer but I noticed it lost it's composure quite quickly as volume increased and the midrange was not crystal clear. Bass was again not up to par. So I'm going to advise interested MA buyers to attempt to audition any MA speaker in your own place with your own equipment WITH return privileges, take note of the persistent problem of deficient low bass slam and output, mid-model cost cutting and small driver sizes and entry level units easily outclassed by other manufacturers. And those prices! If for example the Thiel 2.4 at $4Kish and the Monitor Audio 60 at $4Kish were put side to side, the US made Thiel would dump all over the Monitor audio. |
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Bronze Member Username: MixsterLake Tahoe, NV Post Number: 13 Registered: May-04 | Thanks for the write up, Chicobiker. |
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Bronze Member Username: VasiaPost Number: 12 Registered: May-04 | Chicobiker, Thank you for the review. Could you please expand on one point of your review. You mention "price point" and state that both high and low end representatives of MA line can be beat by same-priced speakers. What about MA S6,S8? You clearly have very high level of expertise and are using quite stringent criteria judging speakers in your review, so it is probably not surprising that there are few shortcomings for MA Silver's. However, how do they compare to other speakers in the same price range and which 800-1200$ speakers clearly leave MA Silvers behind? Thank you! |
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Bronze Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 96 Registered: Apr-04 | I'll tell you about one speaker that instantly comes to mind as a superb value with a very small proviso. A speaker that has good value will have at least a solid cabinet, updated modern driver materials, at least some attempt to control inescapable driver diffraction if the cabinet is completely square, have bass driver sizes & magnets sufficient to really move some air and have detail in the midrange and upper treble. Additionally, I like to see at least one or two positive reviews in the audio magazines. The Absolute Sound! put the 5's (V2) on the best of 2003 list. The Paradigm Monitor 5s if used with some upgraded cable (that's the proviso) provides a sonic profile every bit the equal, surpassing MA in most respects, for about one third the price. If one were budgeting $600 on speakers and alloted even a generous $200 on GOOD cables, you could still toast the MA's for half the price. So by price-point I am referring to a check list of desirable features: sonic performance, cabinet solidity, driver size, tonal accuracy, mid-range detail (the tell all factor), bass performance etc - and how much of EACH of those do you get for a certain price. I want bang for the buck! For example, the B&W Nautilus 800 at a whopping $9000 performed AWESOMELY in every respect in my opinion, but I didn't have an extra $9000 in my checking account that month. So what speaker could I reasonably find, the would give me a slice of the B&W pie for say $1000. This is what I refer to as price-point. |
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OnimushaLord Unregistered guest | "US made Thiel would dump all over the Monitor audio" I don't think so as MA speakers are quite highly regarded and much more reviewed in respected HiFi mags. Certain models do lack some bass punch, but not the Gold line. Even the B2s sound as good as competition 2x the price. I believe you have some form of prejudice against MA speakers looking at the way u screw every model..hehe |
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Bronze Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 100 Registered: Apr-04 | I am not prejudiced over MA speakers and I don't screw every model. If you listen to Thiels and MA unless, you have no ear whatsoever, the frequency response, the lack of cabinet diffraction, the bass system and the coherent arrangement of drivers on a Thiel makes MA sound quite weak and deficient - especially on the bass. As an experienced audiophile and owner of Thiels I was attempting to provide information on MA speakers as the references to them appeared on this board so frequently as of late. |
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PhilB Unregistered guest | The reason there are so many references to MA speakers is because they sound good, neutral and clear! MA Silver S6 at $800 to $900 a pair are a heck of a deal. Not to dump on any other brands, but if you're looking for boomy bass and a nasal midrange, you won't like Monitor Audio. |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 416 Registered: Dec-03 | I agree with the above poster completely. If you want bloated bass don't look to MA. If you want clean, accurate and quick bass response look no further. This idea that MA's lack bass is just way off base. I have a pair of Silver 2's as mains and they provide plenty of bass in 2 channel or multichannel listening. With Elite, Marantz or H/K you will find no better speaker line sonically or for the money than MA. I just replaced a pair of Paradigm Atom's in my kitchen with the MA Bronze B1 and the difference is nothing short of stunning. This is a goodexample of proper matching of amp to speaker. That is the principle we should all keep in mind in our search for the best sound we can find. As to Thiel, IMO they are the most overated and overly expensive speakers I have heard in my 30 plus years in this hobby. If I had the money it takes to buy speakers in that price range I can think of several others I'd rather spend my money on. To each his own, especially when speakers are concerned. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 242 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi All, I think Elitefan's last sentence pretty much says it all. All we can do on this forum is share our opinions, experience, and advice. Yes we must follow some basic common sense basics, but after that, you must rely on your own ears. What sounds right for you! Trying to agree on what's best in the mid-fi segment is insane. Heck, if you give 5 old audiophiles $100,000 each and tell them to build a system, no 2 will come back with the same stuff. They may share some of the same brand names, but thats it. Care to give it a go? Cheers! |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 417 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick, In short, NO! I just wish I had a large enough room to spend $15,000 to $20,000 on a system but in my little 14x14 room that would be overkill. I have spent the last two years or so on trying to put together the best system for my room I could and did most of my buying last year. I did order a new audio rack today[Sound Organization Z560] so I will face the task of completely tearing apart my system and reinstalling it in a week or so. The thought fills me with dread. I find this task to be a real pain in the butt as I have lots of components in my system but this is a much needed upgrade over my 25 year old piece of junk that I have now. Next is a HDTV which I have been looking at lately. I know this is off the subject but why don't these manufactures realize we need flat tops to put center channel speakers on. What idiot designers they employ. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 244 Registered: Dec-03 | Elitefan, I don't envy your project, although we can do it in our sleep. It's just so time consuming. Look on it as a perfect time to really dust/clean all the components. May be time for you to consider one of my favorite personal tweaks. How do you control component internal vibrations? Have you ever considered them. Try placing brass iso-cones under your components. I use them under all my electronics, and the difference is not subtle. |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 418 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick, The only vibration isolators I have ever used are on my turntable and I could not do without them as they help in leveling and reduce vibration from walking on my wood floors. I have never considered isolators on any other components. Can you give me some more info on what you are using or would recommend? Buy the way, what is this dust/clean thing? |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 106 Registered: Apr-04 | Elitefan - it's true, The prices on Thiels is climbing ever higher, almost egotistically on Jim Thiels part. They were once spendy, now they are just EXPENSIVE. Spending money on people's preferences is a given in this country. I want to make clear, that the MA's were not without virutes by any means. The use of Monster Cable at GoodGuys sound rooms led to some very bloated bass and woofy midrange. It's not at all surprising that someone would achieve better results, I was sounding a caution that they not be mis-pereceived solely on the basis of auditions at GGUYS, or rejected due to price. |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 425 Registered: Dec-03 | Chicobiker, Point well taken about auditions at stores. Your point goes for every store regardless of how well set up it is.Nothing sounds like your home. Return policies on speakers need to be fully understood and I have always asked for two weeks. |
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Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 245 Registered: Dec-03 | Elitefan, I was referred to mapleshaderecords.com for this tweak years ago, by a really good friend/musician. Until that time, I never really took internal vibrations into account. It's unbelieveable how much they muddy sound. I only considered external vibrations. Check them out at Mapleshade. Their cones are massive, and really do the job. By the way, if you are not familiar with Mapleshade, they are doing some of the best recording on the planet. It's always a pleasure, Elitefan, have fun and stay well. P.S. The cleaning thing was just a bit of temporary insanity. |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 107 Registered: Apr-04 | Elitefan - I boldly take my own cables and interconnects to stereo stores (not the chain stores) to audition speakers that I'm truly interested in owning. I attempt at least TWO auditions with different CD's, sometimes trying to differ the dealer (for different equipment) and hopefully eliminate the need for returns. This summer I'll upgrade to Monitor 5's, trading in my FOCUS, then I'll start auditioning studying, evaluating, speakers in the $2K range that I"ll keep for at least a few years. I"ll share my notes along the way........ |
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Fab 5 Unregistered guest | Chico- I love my MA Silver 6's. I might of missed the information, but what did the good guys have the speakers hooked up to, Denon? If so, BAD MATCH! Elite really knows his stuff. I will agree with him always. Take care! |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 111 Registered: Apr-04 | FAB5 - I fully suspect the primary culprit behind the negative features I cited was MonsterCable. The bloaty midrange and HEAVY, smeary bass is typical of "The Monster". I don't see how the clear, full, detailed sound of DENON would make a BAD MATCH with MA Silvers. In fact, the pace, tightness, timbral accuracy and suitability for Chamber Music that I found the Gold 20's to be were only negated by mediocre bass and the price. |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 427 Registered: Dec-03 | Chicobiker, I must say that I agree with Fab5 that Denon would be a very bad match with MA. I had a Denon 3803 and hated it for it's very bright, sibilant and thin sound. I was using it with Def Tech DR-7 mains which are very much mellower than most current Def Tech's and it was horrible. MA's do best with Marantz, Elite and H/K. I have found that once my Silver2 were broken in they are not bright paired with my Elite 45 and my new Bronze B1's in my kitchen were not bright right out of the box which was a pleasant surprise. I'll tell you all about this unpleasant buying experience when I have a bit more time. I'd like to hear some reaction to this experience from some regulars. Later. |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 113 Registered: Apr-04 | It's very possible that DENON an MA aren't the best match. I haven't heard a DENON CD player I didn't like - having owned several, and DENON amps are quite clean in my experience. But none of this precludes them being a less than ideal match. |
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GOPAL Unregistered guest | I have to say that as an experienced hi fi owner and professional in the industry with experience with Thiel, monitor audio, B&W, etc i have to disagree with absolutely everything written by Chicobiker. The conclusion that Gold Ref Monitor Audios are lacking any kind of bass is nothing short of absurd. As for the bronze monitor audios, no b&w or other brand can hold a candle to them at their price point, which is probably why What Hi Fi gave them budget speaker range of the year over, B&W, KEF, Mission, Tannoy and Wharfedale. Gold Ref 20s are a serious speaker, with some of the best bass i have ever heard if driven properly (at least 200watts of high current power). Problems with bass can be a result of monster cable (I recommend Kimber), but more likely it comes from a lack of control over the drive units. You need to audition them with more power! |
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OnimushaLord Unregistered guest | I can't agree more with GOPAL above regarding the high standards set by Monitor Audio speakers though I have to respect Chico for his personal/honest comments regarding his experience with the MA at Good Guys. I am by nature not a Monitor Audio fan, but after auditioning several of their products for months, I feel that words like "boomy, chuffy, lost composure, thin bass or no bass" simply don't apply when it comes to MA speakers. That's why professional reviewers from various mags gave the MA line high ratings. Both MA GR10 and 20 have full 5/5 stars from What Hi-Fi, the Silver S6 and S8 are both 4/5 stars with cons of bass overempahsis(potential to overwhelm) and the Bronze B2 = best buy 2003(5/5 stars recurrent with different separate stereo amp/CD player) while B4 = 4/5 stars (highly reviewed with other speakers costing 2-3 times their price). The other bookshelf I would consider holding some competition = B&W DM602 S3/ Quad 11L/ Epos M5 or ELS3/KEF Q1. However, I feel that the Quad 11L are the unanimous champ of the lot. |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 126 Registered: Apr-04 | I always invite comments, as my ego is not involved with anyone having a different stance on speakers. IN auditioning the MA line - for $4k, I'm sorry but the Gold 10 failed miserably in faithfully reproducing the lowest complex Timpani shots in Mahler's 7th symphony and ditto for the lack of visceral impact of Bach's lower register notes in his Organ music nearly three octaves below middle C. Other speakers gave much better performances. Same lack of bass fundamentals occurred with Elton Johns discs and the tonally thin quality was again apparent with George Howards "Reflections" instrumental jazz disc. The magazines have their opinions, but I didn't find that the MA Gold 10 was worth $4K when other speakers for half the price (or less) outperformed it. On balance though, I did see MA speakers available at discounts through some internet sites, but shipping would be costly. |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 437 Registered: Dec-03 | The MA Gold 10 is $1500 a pair list, not $4000. |
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Bronze Member Username: MixsterLake Tahoe, NV Post Number: 20 Registered: May-04 | Hey Chicobiker, please provide the internet sites that you are referring to. |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 127 Registered: Apr-04 | Elite fan - I'm referring to the GoldRef 60, as the price would suggest not the 10. That was minor a typo on my part in that post. Tahoe: http://www.hipposaudiovideo http://www.downtownaudio.com |
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Bronze Member Username: MixsterLake Tahoe, NV Post Number: 23 Registered: May-04 | Thanks buddy. I couldn't stand the wait. I went to Good Guys and auditioned the Monitor Audio, S6, B4 and B2. I loved the sound of the B2 especially considering the value. I liked the S6 a little more but not for the $600 price differential. I was surprised....I really didn't like the B4 that much. Well, to make a long story short, I brought the B2's home and am waiting for my wife to quit yackin on the phone so I can listen to a little Alan Parsons Project  I also audition several Paradigm models today...Studio 20, Studio 60, and Monitor 7. They even had a pair of Studio 60 V2's for $800 but I was afraid I wouldn't have a house to listen to them in if I brought them home. I need to get more scene control ;) When I was said and done, I was blown away by the value of the B2's. I'll let you know how it goes after break in. |
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Bronze Member Username: VasiaPost Number: 14 Registered: May-04 | Tahoe Mick, Can you tell me more what you thought about Studio 60 versus S6? I posted this question before in another thread and generally got a reply that MA speakers are more dynamic. What was you conclusion? |
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Bronze Member Username: MixsterLake Tahoe, NV Post Number: 29 Registered: May-04 | Vasia, That's a tough one. I was not able to compare the two side by side. I liked both but at full retail ($1600 vs $1000) I feel like the S6 is a better buy. I was very impressed with the sound of the S6....great detail and nice tight bass and nice extension for such a small enclosure. Don't get me wrong, the Studio 60 sounded great but I was not moved like I was with the S6. Side by side, my conclusion may have been different because I didn't like the B&W's at all next to the Paradigms. At this point, two factors would sway me towards the S6: 1) Value - The Studio 60 retails for 60% more than the S6 and, to me, it's not warranted. 2) Size - Probably even more important because my little bride would not likely allow me to put the big 60's in HER living room Good luck. I believe that you'll be happy with either. |
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Bronze Member Username: BilldashillPost Number: 98 Registered: Dec-03 | Monitor Audio's B2 is a very good pick. What are you using to power them? Tweeter's had them for $320 a pair. Nothing in this price range comes close to the B2's. Even the PSB's. |
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Bronze Member Username: MixsterLake Tahoe, NV Post Number: 30 Registered: May-04 | Jeff, My receiver is an NAD T752. I agree with you. I'm tickled pink. |
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Unregistered guest | Chicobiker, you say "The 20 though, is a coherent, clean, detailed performer,etc" One thing these speakers are not is coherent. Not with a 4th order x-over. Thats phase shift to the max, bud. I keep telling you to listen to the Green Mountain Europa's but will you listen to me? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo At least then you would have a coherent speaker for a basis to test others. |
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Unregistered guest | therealelitefan, your running Def Tech speakers which have tons of phase irregularities. How can you say it's the amp you don't like? Hint: Human ears are VERY sensitive to phase problems. |
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Silver Member Username: RobertinchicoPost Number: 144 Registered: Apr-04 | Maui - there are no places in the California Central Valley that carry GM Europa's. In my opinion the MA Gold Ref 20's is clean and coherent as a speaker with completely square edges can be. My Thiel 2.2 and 2.3's were coherent and time aligned etc, so when I listen to a speaker that isn't smeary or pudgy I know what I'm hearing. The Gold 20 could perform quite well in a system where chamber, instrumental, casual jazz or baroque were it's primary concerns, but it would fall short in several other important areas where $3K would buy a much better speaker. |
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Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 450 Registered: Dec-03 | mauimusicman, There must be some confusion here as I do not have Def Tech speakers. I used to but now have a MA Silver system which I love. Are you referring to my comments on the Denon 3803? If you are I can onlyrepeat my comments relate my experience with the 3803 only and my disappointment as I liked my 2802 with my old Def Tech's quite a bit. The 3803 was a very different story. |
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Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 462 Registered: Dec-03 | sorry maui but a 4th order xover puts you right back in phase. 1st order 90 degrees 2nd order 180 degrees 3rd order 270 degrees 4th order 360 degrees "back in phase" so i'm not sure what you mean. |
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Mel Unregistered guest | It's obvious you guys know your stuff, so would you take pity on a poor uninformed chick and help her out? I'm desperate for an equipment recommendation from those who know their stuff. I'm buying the Monitor Audio Bronze 2 speakers and need to know which brands of receivers and cables I should be seeking for maximum compatibility. At this point we have my 17 year old components that were my graduation gift from high school. We won't be upgrading to a home theatre setup for a few years because frankly he never watches movies, and I don't *need* it to enjoy a movie. So for now, I just need to replace my stereo components for music listening purposes only. 90% of listening is to pop, rock, and blues; 10% classical and jazz. To make a long story very short, we have very limited $$ to get this stereo setup. I can't afford to replace everything right now, so first I'm going with new speakers and a new receiver.(I see you all keeling over in your seats: no separate components? What is she thinking?) Well, please refer back to the $$ issue mentioned before - not to mention, lack of knowledge about pre-amps and such! In a few months I plan to add a new CD player. I don't even want to consider what to do about a turntable...I miss playing my LPs but don't have the time or energy right now to invest in what it would take for a good turntable setup. Anyhow I've decided on the Monitor Audio Bronze B2's as the speakers. What receiver would be both cost effective AND a good match for these? Also, what cables should I buy? When I was a kid Monster was all we knew about - now there's so many brands, at such high prices, it just gives me one more component about which to be completely uneducated. And Chicobiker's comments about Monster have certainly made me wonder what I should get. Rick mentioned brass iso-cones to control internal vibrations - do any of you have experience with these? I checked out the site he mentioned - if they really make a difference, they're certainly not very expensive. Though they're not my first priority I'd like some opinions on these. I know it probably seems silly for someone like me to ask these things - after all, I probably wouldn't notice sonic differences that you guys could hear in your sleep. But I listen to music almost all day, every day, so I figure why not at least buy the best sounding setup I can get for my money? I'm sure I would hear SOME differences, if not all the differences true audiophiles do. Any # of recommendations at a couple of price points would be great - so I have option in case the $$ comes in a little better than expected. I haven't looked at buying stereos in 15 years and don't know what the price points ARE any more! But definitely less than $ 400 for the receiver, less than $ 300 if you can still get quality at that price. Can you? I'm sorry to go a bit off topic but since there was so much discussion on the MA speakers I thought perhaps I could post this here. Thank you very much in advance! Mel PS If there are older components -- that is, discontinued models -- of receivers or cd players you might think would go well with the B2s, by all means please mention those as well -- I'm on ebay a lot so certainly could check there or the various audio classifieds online for older pieces. |
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glen Unregistered guest | Mel, for me I would choose Harman Kardon 130. I would say that the B2 are best paired to HK130. I've heard it paired with the Onkyos, Marantz etc... But I ended up to HK, the sound is great speacially in music but that's just me though. By the way, the price of HK130 I think is under $400.Hope this would help. |
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OnimushaLord Unregistered guest | Hi Mel, Being more objective here : What Hi-Fi Ultimate Shopping guide suggested the below for pairing up with the MAB2 1)Cambridge Audio Azur 640C (CD player) 2)Cambridge Audio Azur 640A (stereo amplifier) Try listening to this combo at ur nearest dealer b4 buying others. Many reviews have also concurred with the above combo. you can also consider the NAD or Harman Kardon or Yamaha. Please don't pair them up with Denon amps as that combination can sound really bright for serious listeners (post-teens) Just my $0.02 |
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