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Bronze Member Username: WiredconPhoenix, AZ U.S.A. Post Number: 32 Registered: Oct-07 | I had a chance to listen to Cary 805 monoblocks paired with custom made speakers. Source and pre amp were also Cary brand. I'm not familair with tube Amp sounds in general and I can only refer to my "first" experience with tube amps (mcintosh tube amps paired with B&W 802D as a reference for this comparison. When I listened to Mcintosh/802D combo, sound was very warm and soundstage was bigger than solid-state amps that I've listened to. But, I got this feeling that singer was "way back" there (to my ears). I just assumed that it was one of those distinctive characteristics of tube amps. Today, I found myself in shock that how tube-amp can sound so "right" and beautiful. Especially, mid range was amazing. It wasnt bright nor forward. It was just "right" I could feel the soundstage was right in the middle. Mostly, I listen to jazz vocals and acoustic albums, such as guitar, piano,...etc. It performed great in everyway that I ever wanted in a music system. Even though, I couldnt feel the extended bass or big soundstage that I've experienced from Focal utopia/krell combo, for my own music taste, I think I found something that I would like to explore more if it is "the" system for me. Here's my question. I'd like to know if this type of solid mid-range can be found in any other affordable tube-amps under $5000? Also, what other tube-amps can I look into if I liked Cary 805? I know I'm missing quite a bit of information here, but any advice on tube-amps would be great. Art- I'm not sure if you will get a chance to read this, but if you do, would you be able to tell me a bit more about Primaluna amps that you highly regarded in the other thread? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11633 Registered: May-04 | . https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/119397.html You cannot listen to just a tube amp. You must listen through an amplifier and speakers connected by cables. If they are poorly matched, the sound will be less than thrilling. . |
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Bronze Member Username: WiredconPhoenix, AZ U.S.A. Post Number: 33 Registered: Oct-07 | Jan- I find your somewhat sarcastic comments throughout the forum amusing. And, I sure do appreciate your input. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4761 Registered: Dec-03 | "But, I got this feeling that singer was "way back" there (to my ears)." Ryan, of course that could be the recording. In which case the Mcintosh/B&W 802D could have been doing a better job than things you were comparing with, even if you did not prefer the overall effect. The thread "Tube Talk" which Jan links was started years ago by Rick Barnes. It is probably nearly unreadable, starting from scratch. I bought a Prima Luna Prologue 2 integrated amp about two years ago and it suits me well. If "entry level" for you is $5,000 you are a lucky guy, and there is a lot of choice. Some particular cases are discussed on that thread. Jan often responds well to getting some back. I assume that he is aware that you can't listen just through amplifier, speakers and cables. I've learned through trial and error, also advice from experts, always to connect a source for the signal going into the amplifier. It invariably makes a difference.... Irritating, isn't it....? Anyway, there is a point, there, too! Best wishes, both. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11635 Registered: May-04 | . Oh, John! While John has an obvious point it strays from where I was originally headed. The point of both posts though is that you are hearing the effects of the whole system within a room. Any of those items, and most especially the room, will have an influence on the sound. (In some rooms, simply moving the seating position a few feet or treating the wall immediately behind the listener can make a dramatic change in the perceived soundstage and frequency balance.) And it only takes a bit of a shift in frequency response to give an impression that might be quite different should any one of the components or room be altered. If you read a few reviews of the tube gear available in the 1970's & '80's, you'll often find the reviewer mentioning the lack of typical tube forwardness so often heard in classic tube equipment. As a general rule I would say laid back mids are not typical to contemporary tube sound but are more typical of a trend in consumer audio sound over the last decade or so. So, does that make the Cary or the Mac more in line with the original recording? Hard to tell from your post and from the many variables involved in system sound. However, my point, as contrasted with John's assertion, is the power amplifier and speakers should be a good electrical match to each other in any system. While electrical matching should always be a consideration of system building, the source is the least likely place to find voltage or impedance mismatches. The pre amp to amplifier can have matching problems if the system wasn't set up with consideration for pre amp output impedance, cable length and input impedance of the power amplifier. Even ignoring the basic fact that many pre amplifiers and power amplifiers invert absolute phase will cause some recordings to sound quite unlike the artist's intent. These are all considerations that the savvy owner will take into account when setting up a system. Sadly, they are often ignored in shop demos sometimes for the sake of expediency and sometimes out of simple ignorance to the system's requirements. And, to be fair, these relatively minor considerations are still less likely to cause problems than the basic electrical match between power amplifier and speaker load. When dealing with transformer coupled tube amplifiers, speaker matching is paramount. When dealing with SET triode based amplifiers it means life or death in regards to system sound. Tube amplifiers will inherently have a higher output impedance than most direct coupled solid state amplifiers. In the case of the Cary amplifier, you are dealing with single ended triode outputs which will have a completely different sound and electrical need when compared to the McIntosh push-pull pentode output tubes. (The low powered 300B is considered to be a sweet sounding triode power tube with a more classic "tube sound" than the higher disipation KT88 pentode. Push-pull [as used in the Mac] is meant to overcome some of the limitations of single ended operation. The same is true of pentode vs. triode. The Cary, as a SET, runs in class A which is quite inefficient but has good sound potential. The Mac operates as a class AB amplifier trading some sweetness for higher power efficiency and longer tube life with lower overall cost.) The 300B triode output tube in the single ended Cary cannot help but have a very different sound from the KT88's in the Mac since the "sound" of triodes and single ended amplifiers led to the development of push-pull pentode based designs. Since the Cary produces a whopping 25 watts and has a relatively high output impedance, the speakers required to work effectively with this amplifier will be quite different than those you might pair with the higher powered push-pull McIntosh. With a low powered SET amplifier such as the Cary, your choice in speakers will be effectively limited to a relative few while the Mac will handle a much broader range of designs. Neither amplifier, however, nor any amplifier for that matter, can be paired with any speaker without consideration given to the electrical requirements of the amplifier and the speaker combination. As the overall output impedance of an amplifier rises, as is typical for tube based power amplifiers, the effect of the speaker load will be more dramatic on the frequency response of the system. Some tube amplifiers will have a relatively high nominal value for output impedance. This impedance then shifts with frequency and the extent of that shift will depend on the quality of the output transformers and the circuit in front of them. (No amplifier's output impedance is absolutely stable relative to frequency.) The speaker's impedance also shifts with frequency and this interaction between amplifier output impedance and speaker load impedance can cause abberations in the frequency response of the system. In the case of the B&W's, they are fairly well known as difficult speakers to drive due to their impedance and electrical phase shifts. In the case of the custom built speakers you heard with the Cary amplifier I can only assume the speakers were designed with a more stable impedance load meant to work more effectively with tube amplifiers. In all probability they were also horn loaded designs against the direct radiator system of the B&W. Throw in a pair of poorly chosen speaker cables meant for visually effect rather than electrical matching, and the problems multiply. All this is (strong) supposition on my part as to whether this had any effect on the sound you heard from the two different systems. It's impossible to say for certain what caused the laid back sound you heard from the Mac/B&W system since I don't know the particulars of the system you heard. The same goes for the Cary system. And, at this point we seem to be describing a sound you prefer rather than a sound you would say is more accurate. At this point I would ask whether you have a fresh reference for live music and did one system more accurately protray the emotions of the live event. (SET's, and 300B's in particular, are well known for the emotion they bring to a performance while push-pull and pentodes are considered less histrionic in their presentation.) If we are judging a system just on where the vocalist appeared, then there are a few other things I would wish to know before saying which system did the better job with the music. I can say B&W's would not be my first choice to pair with any tube amplifier, not even a McIntosh. So, to hopefully make my intial point clear, you must consider all the variables when making decisions regarding the sound of a system. I cannot tell you the Cary is better than the Mac nor can I say the opposite is true. I can tell you the Cary is more limiting in its partnering speakers. I would only assert that you cannot judge an amplifier outside of the context of the system within which it operates nor the music it reproduces. When dealing with tube amplifiers this is most especially true if the speakers do not compliment the amplifier's electrical requirements or if you are judging one type of operation against another. Compare apples to apples, please. If you are interested in buying a tube amplifier, you would do well to read up a bit on how to best pair an amplifier to the speakers. If you do not intend to change out your amplifier and speakers at the same time, this would be very important since many first time tube buyers have been quite dissatisified with the sound at home compared to the sound in the shop. This is most often the case with poorly sold SET triodes. If the shop doesn't know tubes very well, which is the case in too many high end stores today, they will have no answer to your dilemma and you will have made an expensive mistake due to their ignorance. I hope that helps calrify my original post. http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/740/index11.html . |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4764 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Jan. Yes, of course a power amp and speakers should be a good electrical match. Ryan, looking at your profile to try to see what speakers you already have, it looks like everything is up for grabs, anyway. Naim do not make tube amps as far as I am aware! Your present amp seems to be a Pioneer Elite receiver. If you just replace that, on trial, with a pair of Cary 805 monoblocks, or with a complete Cary amplification, or another tube system, you might hear a difference and get an idea of whether tubes are for you. Just listening to a totally different system will not tell you that. Perhaps that thought is behind Jan's advice, good as always. Re amp-speaker matching, my new tube integrated - old-but-weird speaker set-up is well matched, I think, as long as I use the 4 Ohm output transformer taps from the amp. If I use 8 Ohm taps, then the speakers still sound great, but occasionally go into their famous 100 V overload protection. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4765 Registered: Dec-03 | Further thought. Yes, this looks like a clear case for a home demo. Prima Luna dealers will do this, for one. That service is what they provide in return for what is undoubtedly a hefty mark-up. Go to your dealer. You can even get things shipped for demo. Shipping costs on tube amps are, naturally, quite high. |
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Bronze Member Username: WiredconPhoenix, AZ U.S.A. Post Number: 34 Registered: Oct-07 | Jan- I enjoy reading your insightful postings throughout the forum. It helps me to better understand this new hobby of mine. John- I thank you for your kind suggestions, and will try to find out if I can locate a dealer who carries Prima Luna amps in my area. Initially, I was trying to get Naim integrated Amp and CD player (Nait 5i and CD 5i),since I really liked the Naim sound. As you might have noticed (from my profile), all of my gears were purchased with less than $200, except for those paradigm speakers. And, I'm in the process of clearing all of my gears out. I was thinking of getting a pair of Strata Minis from AV123.com and match them with Naim gears. But the Cary system changed my view on the power amp. Certainly, my entry budget is not $5000, and am not even close to consider myself as one of those "lucky" people. $5000 was my budget for speakers and power amp, but if I have to spend $5000 for an amp to get the sound that I wanted, I was going to keep those paradigm studio speakers. I suppose I was so impressed with the Cary system (for mid-range) that I've listened at my local dealer, and was trying to find a short cut to have that kind of quality sound without taking proper steps. That's where my $5000 budget came in. For my music preferences, I couldn't ask for more. The system wasn't really impressive in high and low, but I thought to myself, if I can have "this" mid-range, I could live with that. Even though I was fully aware of the fact that there were many other things that I had to consider in a system, I was acting like a kid who just has to get his hands on a new video game that he saw on TV. Once again, I thank you both. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9064 Registered: Dec-04 | Even though I was fully aware of the fact that there were many other things that I had to consider in a system, I was acting like a kid who just has to get his hands on a new video game that he saw on TV. Never lose that feeling, Ryan. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4767 Registered: Dec-03 | That's good, Nuck. My pleasure, Ryan. |
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Bronze Member Username: WiredconPhoenix, AZ U.S.A. Post Number: 35 Registered: Oct-07 | Nuck- Not sure if it's a good thing, considering what this "feeling" might cause in my financial dept. Well, can't have everything, right? John.A- Not sure if you will read this message, if you do, would you be able to share your experience on Prima Luma Prologue 2? I'm considering this Prologue 2 to pair it up with either Strata Mini from AV123, or Opera Platea 2. They both fall into $1200-1300 range. I couldnt find any local dealer who has PrimaLuna amps, and it is stopping me from jump on the deal. Thanks in advance. Ryan |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5546 Registered: Feb-05 | I like the Prologue One better than the 2 by a long site. Just sounds right where the 2 I had never did. John's experience has been different. My dealer (who no longer sells Prima Luna) would only recommend the One as every Two they sold was returned including one sold to an employee. I do love tubes and look forward to trying them again someday. Off to my conference. |
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Bronze Member Username: WiredconPhoenix, AZ U.S.A. Post Number: 36 Registered: Oct-07 | Art- Thanks for your tip. I'm somewhat surprised that you liked Prologue One better. I didn't think there would be much of difference in sound, except that Prologue two can accept EL and KT tubes whereas Prologue one can only accept EL. I've heard only good things about Prima luna Prologue 2 and you are the first one to leave a negative comment. When you get a chance, would you be able to give me a more detailed comparison between one and two? I'm pretty much set on the speaker side. I'll make up my mind between Strata Minis and Opera Platea 2. Both speakers are under $1200. Can anyone help me with choosing the right amps? At this moment, I'm a bit confused for everything else. My budget is $5000, and will spend $1200 on a pair of speakers. That will leave me roughly 3600 and some changes for the rest of my system. I'd like to complete my stereo system under $5000. Mid-range is the most important area for me. I would like to have a system where I can enjoy female vocals, mostly jazz. I want it to be more than just good system for, at least, female vocals. Any help would be great. Thanks, Ryan |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9075 Registered: Dec-04 | Ryan, if you are not against something pre-loved, you might shop the Mac tube amps. Audiogon have them now and then. |
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Bronze Member Username: WiredconPhoenix, AZ U.S.A. Post Number: 37 Registered: Oct-07 | Nuck- That's not an issue for me at all. I can happily live with "pre-loved" gears. I've tried Mcintosh tube power amps (dont remember exact model, but they were stereo amps, serving as monoblocks for B&W 802D) Anyway, My impression was that the sound was somewhat "too soft" for my taste? I remember that I enjoyed rock music for the first time. I played Live "Throwing Copper" album, and they were very nice. I finished the entire album without realizing it. The problem was that I felt like "voice" was kind of "gooey". I wasn't certain if it was Mcintosh sound, or tube power amps in general. If you can suggest me any specific models that I could give a try from Mcintosh, that would be great. It seems like there are too many kinds out there. I wouldn't know where to begin. Thanks, Ryan |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9083 Registered: Dec-04 | Well, Ryan, the tube Mac's are just a bit limited if you want big power. Luckily, the ss Mac's carry the same sonic signature into their ss amps, which are many and varied. My first choice would be a Mac 7300 power amp, second would be a 7270(many available). These are classic glass faced Macs. Also available are the ss range without the face. Shop around. |
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New member Username: CkoffendKalamazoo, MI USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Nov-07 | Ryan, Ryan, Ryan I feel so reduntant. Your question is actually a terrific one and while others have given very logical, educated and well informed replies, I too will chime in. First off, with regard to sound staging, I find that I appreciate the performance of tubes over solid state. Some say that tubes do not do as good of a job with distinct placement of individual instruments, but I don't think I completely agree with this. I own both tubed (BAT VK 60 monos which I run during the winter and a Mark Levinson 331.5 for summer). Both do a very good job of imaging, slightly different but I don't think I would be willing to give up these amps. The roll an amp plays is so important to the overall performance of a system, as is the speakers (for that matter all components). The key questions I gathered from your statement was what other amps to consider in the tubed area that will deliver exceptional sound but at a reasonable price (per my perspective of your comments). Here the list can be pretty complete, with a wide selection to choose from. My recommendations are below: Golden Tube Audio SE 40 (this is an excellent tubed amplifier that performed well ahead of its price point back in the 90s) They can be had now for about $550 and at this price are a terrific value. BAT VK 60 amps in stereo can be purchased used for about $1750 with good (ie. relatively fresh set of tubes all around) and this is also a very good amp Cary amps can also be purchased for the $1,000-$2000 range used Conrad Johnson has made a history with tubed amps and several models are exceptionally good, again used in the sub $1,500 price range Since it sounds like you are going tubed for the first time, there are some factors to consider when going this route. First, you have the amp/speaker matching issues. For the most part you want a speaker that will not fluctuate wildly in its impedance demands. You can run a good 4 ohm speaker with tubes, but you want a steady impedence vs. a speaker rated at 8 ohms but can drop to 4 and rise to 12, this is actually a tougher load to drive for tubes than a 4 ohm speaker that has little impedence change. You stated that you like the Naim sound (but this changed with the listen to the Cary amps). Perhaps you may like the Conrad Johnson amps the best of those listed above. The CJ amps have a traditional tube sound, but in my opinion can be a bit darker in character (like the Naim equipment), so you may get both of the sounds you like. With the BAT VK 60s (which I own) you will get a very nice, actually beautiful midrange. With this amp and good match in speakers you will still have a solid and relatively tight bottom end and a more extended top end. Don't get me wrong, this will not be to the same level as with a Krell or Levinson amp (I used these brands not stating that they are best, but these are features of both brands that many people claim is what makes them special). You should have no problems putting together an excellent power amp and very, very good speakers at the $5,000 budget that you reference in a subsequent statement. You will want to avoid certain brands of speakers though in doing this (ie. such as the thiel's, which I also own and love, but can be a bit too demanding for moderate powered tube amps). Assuming your room is average size or less, some speakers that I have experience with that are good with the above referenced tube amps are: Totem (Arros are great with 60+ watts of tube amp power) Von Schweikert VR 4 JR can be driven nicely again with 60-75 watts Wilson Cubs (you could get a VK 60 with the Cub 1s combined for under $5,000) But at the same time, you could put together a complete pre/amp/spkr package that would be very, very good within your budget. |