Integrated for Dalis??
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 17 Registered: Sep-06 | Im parting with my Manley Stingray. Im leaning toward the NAD C352 or Rotel 1062 as a replacement. I read the NAD is warm and powerful. The Rotel upfront and lively. I'd describe my Dalis (royal towers) as warm, laid back but vocally very clear, subtle on the bass (which id like to improve on) They have a great soundstage and rich depth with accoustics and vocals...but punchy with metal guitar they are not(at least with the Stingray). Im thinking the Rotel, but the power of the NAD is attractive. What do you guys think? Im an 80% metal guy. What would I end up with if chose the NAD vs. the Rotel? Is the power of the NAD gonna punch up my Dalis, or the upfront character of the Rotel gonna do it? (kind of gotten both impressions reading the posts) Thanks! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8862 Registered: Dec-04 | While either would work OK, Ty, you might look for a used Classe. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 18 Registered: Sep-06 | Hey Nuck, thanks for chiming in. What feature(s) make you suggest it? What differences from Rotel and NAD? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11492 Registered: May-04 | . Between those two choices, the Rotel is the better amp for what you say you want. Either way going from what the Manley does well to what the two amps you've listed do at all is likely to be a disappointment. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 19 Registered: Sep-06 | I hear what your saying. In my experience what the Manley does well unfortunately isnt metal and hard rock. The other day I swapped in my garage sell Kenwood reciever. Im lieing if I said there was no difference, there was. But not a 2K difference...not to my pocket book. It was less refined, a poorer sound, and not as "hi-fi" sounding, but there was a quickness to it, and punch and bass that the Stingray simply doesnt have. For me, a no brainer. Ive said it before, ive never heard anything as sweet, soulful and engaging as the Manley/Dali combo for vocals, jazz and accoustic performance, its stunning. Unfortunately thats not what I listen to 90% of the time. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11493 Registered: May-04 | . So, then, why'd you buy the Manley? |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 537 Registered: Jun-07 | "and punch and bass that the Stingray simply doesnt have. For me, a no brainer" Tyler- If punch and bass is what your looking for, I would pick NAD over the Rotel any day. You have to take a listen to them both and see what you like best, they really are in the same class, just totally different sound types. The NAD will give you more bass, the Rotel more treble. To my ears I have never really found Rotel all that Musical. But that is just my taste, maybe not yours. The Classe stuff I like. Does your dealer carry both Rotel and NAD? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8870 Registered: Dec-04 | Manley make some pretty good amps. Indeed, what happened there? The new Rotel amps are the same as the old, blasting power to a point, top heavy(which I like) and proud of it. Outlaw is calling... |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 20 Registered: Sep-06 | I dont really have a dealer, you guys have to understand where I live...the closest city is Salt Lake City...5 hours, 8 to Denver, 7 to Phx, 7 to Vegas...literally the sticks. It played a part in my Manley purchase, I didnt have the luxury of a return audition(s). Still dont. (which is why im here! Anyway, to answer Jan's very good question. I was going to be in Denver for work. So I made plans to go to the Denver Audio Show and made arrangements through Manley to demo a Stingray with a dealer nearby. Unfortunately I get there and the dealer no longer has a Stingray to demo. So we demo the Snapper monos with the Shrimp preamp, Arcam or Cary CDP (cant remember now) through the Dalis I have now. Anyway, my instincts said pointless..since it wasnt what I was there to hear. I voiced my concern, the dealer told me and Manley echoed it...that I would be hearing the same sound as the Stingray, just more powerful. In the back of my mind I was thinking bullshit based for one on the fact that the Snappers use different tubes....my guitar amp experience talking..there IS a difference there..that I know. I love EL84 guitar amps, less so the EL34 amps. So I rationalized, "if the EL34 Monos sound good...then the EL84 Stingray will sound better" u know? So I go ahead with the appt. The audition was just he and I, which was a far cry from the show. I learned a lot, but it was my first real experience with good gear, it sold me. However if I had the luxury of a return trip..or two..to this dealer and others...I may have made a different choice. Honestly, I feel like a dumbass about it, and feel even more stupid telling you guys the story. Live and learn. |
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Bronze Member Username: NoutPost Number: 98 Registered: Mar-06 | I would keep the Manley. From what I have read about this amp you're going to regret selling it or trading it for a different amp. Many metalheads I know have developed a distinct taste for classical music over the years...the Manley would especially be suited for this kinda music. The other day I swapped in my garage sell Kenwood reciever. Im lieing if I said there was no difference, there was. But not a 2K difference...not to my pocket book. It was less refined, a poorer sound, and not as "hi-fi" sounding, but there was a quickness to it, and punch and bass that the Stingray simply doesnt have. For me, a no brainer. If you don't hear THAT much differences (apart from less refinement) between the Stingray and your Kenwood amp, I wonder if you can hear much differences between your old Kenwood and a new Rotel or NAD to justify a new buy. Would a separate power amp connected to the Stingray make a difference in speed and attack? I am asking Jan or Nuck, because I never listened anything other than an integrated amp. The other option may be a pair of different speakers. You said it yourself the Dalis are a bit laid back and warm, but your amp probably is not that laid-back is it? I'd reckon a pair of Klipsch speakers will give you more loud and upfront guitars |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11498 Registered: May-04 | . Before I address Nout's questions, can the Stingray accept EL84's? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11499 Registered: May-04 | . Or for that matter, any other tube type? Have you tried different brand tubes in your present amplifier? Some tube rolling perhaps might be your answer. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 541 Registered: Jun-07 | ahhh yes very good point. Jan, with his amp, is it possible to add a sub? or no? I don't know a whole lot about the Stingray. Although I know Manley has a very good rep. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5428 Registered: Feb-05 | Something is not right in the setup. The Stingray comes from a company with a rock and roll heart. If that amp didn't rock I don't believe that Manley would have released it. Try some of the suggestions listed here...tube rolling, different interconnects, room treatments...try pretty much everything before you throw in the towel on a Stingray for a Rotel. If nothing works you can always trade me for my Rega Mira 3..... ! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2151 Registered: May-05 | Tyler, Before I get into what everyone else is saying, I have to ask what are you using as a source? The source is a huge part of the equation that too many people don't consider adequately. I don't have any experience with Manley nor Dali, so I can't really can't say what should or should not be happening. Jan's tube rolling suggestion is a very good one. Rather than trying out a bunch of new stuff - which seems almost impossible for the time being - you may want to try some different tubes. I'm not familiar with the different tubes types and manufacturers out there, so I won't go that route. But, its a very cost effective solution right now. Trying out a few different tubes may get the sound exactly where it needs to be. Jan is also right on in saying that Rotel, NAD, et al. will be a big downgrade. They may initially be more exciting, but I'd be very willing to bet that it'll get old after a little while and bring you back to where you are right now. If the tube rolling doesn't work out, there are some very good systems out there that'll work out well. Do a little research on Naim, Rega, Linn, and Bryston. Bryston is probably the most readily available, and Linn is the most expensive overall line. They pride themselves on pace, rythym, and timing (PRaT), which is probably the single most important ascpect in a stereo reproducing rock and metal IMO. Bryston isn't really thought of as being in the 'flat earth' PRaT group, but my experience with it tells me it can be. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11501 Registered: May-04 | . Excuse my ignorance. Metal depends upon PRaT? What will they think of next?! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11502 Registered: May-04 | . Tyler - Do us a favor and provide a few links to your speakers and amplifier. There may be some simple reason for your problems that can be addressed if we are more familiar with the gear pair up. So far, pretty much everything that's been said is true. The Manley gear should do metal as well as any amp. The source could possibly be a problem, though I personally tend to discount the source in this case as much as I would if you had said Chet Baker is your muse. The Dalis might be causing the Manley problems in the specific "metal guitar range" that can be solved before you throw in the towel on what should be a very good amplifier. Have you done any speaker set up? Any particular set up technique or just where the speakers fit? . |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 21 Registered: Sep-06 | Guys, thanks a lot for the input. Its interesting, I posted in the CDP section about the lack of punch and loud guitars and got "maybe try SS" "rotel 1072" "manley is known to be fatiguing".... https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/384903.html I have lots of tubes because I have EL84 guitar amps. Ive swapped in some different Russians and honestly dont hear much difference. Nout you have a point on hearing the difference, maybe its not enough to justify a new buy. Before the Stingray I auditioned the Cambridge 340A and 540A...they didnt sound much different to my old setup either, so I sent them back. The amp sounds laid back to me, I tried it with my old Kenwood speakers in my experimenting the other day...doesnt drive them like the reciever does.(that is what sparked my deciding to sell it) Jan, I have keyed on the speakers as well. I was initially told.."for tubes, the more sensitive the better". It was all new to me, but I was surprised to have the dealer recommend the Dalis rated at 89db. Maybe thats where my problems lie. As ive said over and over, accoustics and vocals particulary are just amazing...the imaging is like nothing ive ever heard. Vocally the singer is literally sitting between the speakers, close your eyes and he or she is in the room with you, its really remarkable. But when the power chords come in...it kind of falls on its face. Ive literally had hours of discussion with my dealer about this, and it always turns to my source and/or that "metal and rock cds are thin sounding"....his words ..not mine. I have a lot of CDs, I can tell the difference....thats not it. I have set this system up in two different homes, in almost every room of each home in many different configurations and spacing. Yes I can emphasize this or tone down that and find sweet spots. It doesnt change what im not hearing. These speakers are quite short, even with tilt-back emphasized the drivers shoot at about your waist/chest in an average size room. Over time I found myself sitting on the floor to emphasize the guitars (it helps) ive thought about putting them on stands, currently they are tilted way back against a wall...this is about as good as ive heard the system. But no matter....its still lacking what I crave. You can put your ear right up to the drivers at volume so low the room is not a factor, the shortcomings are still apparent. Hell ive even sat between them like headphones...at low volume of course...same thing. Im convinced room size, positioning etc does not make up for what im lacking. Its not room accoustics.....its tone. Heres the links: http://www.dali.dk/us/page245.aspx?sub=266&prod=298 http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/stingray99.html Thanks again, this is what I was hoping to hear with CDP post. Ive given up, other than selling it all off, nice to hear some fresh opinions. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2153 Registered: May-05 | Tyler, I didn't realize this has been an ongoing thing that you've been addressing this way for this long. To be honest, I don't think your current system is for you. I hate to say throw in the towel, but that's what it looks like to me. Maybe I'm jumping the gun a little here. I'd advise hearing as many systems as you can to get a sense of what's out there and what it is that you want. Forget about trying to find a new amp that'll work with your current speakers, and so on. Just listen to complete systems - they don't have to be one brand components and speakers. I know you've got a pretty good idea of what you're looking for, but hearing it in a system is a little different than it may seem. Even though you say its difficult to hear gear in your area, can you wait until another show like the one in Denver comes up? If you regularly travel for work, have you looked up audio shops in the areas you're heading? From what you say you want in your system, I stand by my Naim, Rega, Linn, and Bryston recommendations. Do a little research on them and try to hear them. There are a lot of other very good manufacturers out there, but these may closest fit the bill of what you're looking for from what you've said. On a positive note, Manley has a very good resale value. You should be able to recover the majority of what you paid if you're moving on. I haven't looked into Dali's second hand prices, but they're a well respected company and therefore should get a good price as well. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 22 Registered: Sep-06 | Stu, I failed to answer your earlier question. My source is a yamaha cd changer...think I paid $150 for it back in '98. Definitely the weak link. But I have swapped in other players and once again the sound changes...but the shortcomings are still there. I actually sold the Manley just this weekend on Audigon at a fair price....it was gone in about 3 hours! I bought a new house and could use the money as well, that combined with my general unhappiness and that I dont listen to it much anymore.....seems like the thing to do. As I type im listening on my pc, with a pair of M-Audio BX5a powered monitors through their Firewire Solo recording interface. Its a small soundstage..and not exaclty room filling....but it goes where the Manley/Dalis dont at about 1/8 the cost, which is pretty revealing for me and what reinforced my decision to sell. My NAD/Rotel question was simply that I will still have a nice pair of speakers, and could pick one up and still have a good portion of my money back. And if the same shortcomings exist...well then ill know its the speakers. I dont travel a whole lot no. Rega ive heard good things about, as well as Naim. In fact my next upgrade was going to be an Apollo....maybe I should have before throwing in the towell. I considerd NAD because through Audio Advisor I can have a home audition for 30 days(about my only option to have such an opportunity) Theres some truth about ending up where I started....very possible. Its all a process right? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11510 Registered: May-04 | . From what you've added I believe the problem is with your speakers being far too polite for your chosen music. I hope you don't regret selling the Manley. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 790 Registered: May-06 | If you swapped out the Yamaha with other like or inferior sources what would you expect to hear? Stu's point of hearing everything together is valid but I have often found that once I get something into my system at home it is light years in difference from what I heard at the shop. My Saturn may be the exception, but on that one I worked with the dealer to demo it in a set up that was quasi similar to mine. If you do not upgrade your source to gain symmetry with the rest of your gear you will be right back to where you were with the Manley. Don't look back, you are happy with what you got for the amp, just plan ahead. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2156 Registered: May-05 | Good points Mike. While the system will most likely sound different at the dealer's place, it'll still most likely convey the overall sound of the system at home. My reason for why I suggested hearing entire systems was because I had/have the impression that he kind of knew what he wanted, but didn't/doesn't truly know. The only way to know exactly what you want and where you want to go if your unsure is to hear an entire system. Peiceing a system together without knowing what it truly is that you want from the finished product can be a very long and disappointing process. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 23 Registered: Sep-06 | Thanks guys for the advice. Over time I begin to think it was the Dalis, as Jan said...too polite...good way to describe it. So before actually parting with the Manley, I ran the Stingray through my old Kenwood 12" floor standers and the the general personality of the Stingray was still very apparent, and the "it" that im looking for still missing. Could be a lot of things, another poor speaker match etc...whatever...but a common enough characteristic to really make me question the Manley. Michael, I hear you on the source, wondering if I should have tried a better CDP before drawing any more conclusions. And also if I should start there now and build on it. I heard the same thing about Manley and rock n roll..."cant go wrong"...so it was tough to come to the conclusion to part with it. I probably should have tried a better speaker with it before selling, but too late now... Im very curious what more power will do with my little Dalis, but the thought of component swapping/selling/buying.etc...sounds very unappealing, I just want to be able to turn on my stereo and enjoy the sound. I like your logic on the complete system advice Stu. Interestingly enough at the Denver show the one room I really liked was the Mcintosh room, I dont recall what I was listening to component wise, but it was my kind of sound overall. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2207 Registered: May-05 | It would be pretty hard to find a person who would say Mac isn't their kind of sound. Believe it or not, they do exist. They just need to have a little sense knocked into them. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 24 Registered: Sep-06 | Thats funny Stu. Its taken me a year to admit to myself I liked the sound of the Mac stuff at the show because the reps treated everyone so badly. They were so uppity and full of themselves that I left with a very negative impression of Mac in general. But I have to admit it sounded nice, I believe it was all Mac components ....but dont remember what speakers. Had they been cool....who knows...I may have a Mac on the shelf as we speak. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2209 Registered: May-05 | "...the reps treated everyone so badly." That's very surprising. They have impeccable customer service. As an example, a Mac dealer who was excellent (now out of business unfortunately) told me that he had a customer who's house burned down. His Mac gear was destroyed. The dealer called to inquire about getting the gear repaired and explained the situation. The gear was about 15 years old. Mac fixed it and cleaned it up to better than new condition. No charge. Mac's quote - "Any way we can help them get back on their feet." |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 25 Registered: Sep-06 | Well thats good to hear, I wouldnt have guessed from my experience that day, they didnt have time for anyone not in a suit it seemed. Between them and the Musical Fidelity room it was a toss up on who were less interested in selling product. Im not trying to flame either company, but considering I was there to buy...inexcuseable even if I wasnt...I was pretty taken back by their attitudes. Good to know its not the general consensus. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 26 Registered: Sep-06 | I just picked up a Rotel 1062, ill let you guys know how it sounds with my set up, and the change from the Stingray. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9050 Registered: Dec-04 | Give it a good run-in, Ty. |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 27 Registered: Sep-06 | The Rotel has arrived. First impression...this thing rocks. Snappy is a good word, forward, very clear, but not overly bright. Only tried it with my Kenwoods (they are closer to the front door.. ) and id say its slightly less dimensional then the stingray, not as sweet on the soft stuff...but its got punch and power, and the bass thumps, the contour switch is very cool. For me...it betters the SR. One peculiar thing: with my "better" audioquest ICs...its fatiguing. But with the cheap $2 ICs I got in a bargain bin at the local hardware store, its warmer and more lush....maybe they are just less transparent and hiding things...and thats the reason....but I didnt ever expect to prefer them. Its plugged into some very mainstream gear...well see how it goes with the Dalis....more to come... |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 28 Registered: Sep-06 | Nuck...almost forgot...previous owner said it has about 150 hours on it. |
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New member Username: Hk_fanPost Number: 9 Registered: Nov-06 | Tyler, how are you finding the Rotel with the Dali? Which Dali do you have? |
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Bronze Member Username: ZamdrangPost Number: 29 Registered: Sep-06 | Raydon, the Rotel was a really nice compliment to my Dalis. (I have the Royal Towers). With my setup I enjoyed it much more then I did the SR. Ive since moved on to a Mac 6900 and an Apollo. But considering cost, I have nothing but positive to say about my time with the Rotel. I now see how some call it bright, although I personally I think thats being too general. Great match with the warm/polite Dalis IMO. |
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