Considering active crossover. Worth it?
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 2076 Registered: Feb-04 | I'm considering this Behringer DCX2496 http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=eng to drive my 3-way Klipsch speakers. The signal path for stereo might look like: Philips SA-963 --digital--> Behringer --analog--> h/k receiver 6-ch analog inputs --> Klipsch drivers. It would allow time-alignment of the 3 drivers and very steep filters. Would this sound better than the more traditional: Philips SA-963 --analog--> h/k receiver 6-ch analog inputs --> ALK Universal passive crossover --> Klipsh drivers. Some don't consider the inexpensive Behringer unit audiophile-grade, but will the sound better or worse? Opinions from people with active-crossover experience is welcome, in particular with the Behringer. Thanks, Peter |
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New member Username: DmanwithnonameLondon, Ontario Post Number: 8 Registered: Sep-07 | I would be very interested in the results if you do decide to do that. How did you get the idea to want to do that?? Are you bi-amping bi-wirable speakers and disconnecting the internal cross over? Based on what I have seen and heard in band set ups with beringer equipment, they are kinda like the cerwin vega of home audio. Not sure if you have any experience with beringer at all, your mileage may very all my experience is with older band set-ups with mostly used gear. |
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New member Username: DmanwithnonameLondon, Ontario Post Number: 9 Registered: Sep-07 | oh i get it its a joke! |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1032 Registered: Apr-06 | Hard to say in your case Pete. A speaker system designed using an active XO and amplifiers designed to drive specific drivers will have obvious advantages over a typical passive speaker system. Good examples of these systems in action are the NHT Xd system and the B&O Beolab 5. However, shoehorning an active crossover into a system that wasn't designed with one in mind I suspect will be more than a little tricky. It basically puts the task of being a speaker designer entirely in your hands. As I'm sure you're aware, there is more to it than just selecting crossover points and steep slopes. For starters, you aren't guaranteed anything close to a flat response right out of the box. To get something approaching good response that also sounds good takes time and testing equipment. Also while time alignment is a possibility with an active XO, it isn't a guarantee by any means. AFAIK, it requires careful placement of drivers with relation to one another. Again, to get anything approaching precision, it requires testing equipment to verify results. So basically IMO, if you've got the patience, time, and equipment, it could lead to better sound. If you were just looking for a quickie upgrade, you might be barking up the wrong tree. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 2078 Registered: Feb-04 | I would be very interested in the results if you do decide to do that. How did you get the idea to want to do that?? I asked about after-market passif crossover upgrade options on another forum and was surprised that the active XO options was popular, granted usually with a more expensive XO (too expensive for now). Are you bi-amping bi-wirable speakers and disconnecting the internal cross over? I would tri-amp and remove the internal crossover. I would use an HT receiver as the 6-channel amplifier required (or perhaps some outside amplification using the pre-outs; but the HT receiver would provide a 6-channel volume control). Based on what I have seen and heard in band set ups with beringer equipment, they are kinda like the cerwin vega of home audio. Not sure if you have any experience with beringer at all, your mileage may vary Yeah, that's what I hear about the Behringer too, thus the question about it here. Thanks! So basically IMO, if you've got the patience, time, and equipment, it could lead to better sound. If you were just looking for a quickie upgrade, you might be barking up the wrong tree. I realise that there ui tweaking to do with time alignment, but some of that is already published for that particular speaker. Level matching will need to be done as well. I think there's a mic option on that Behringer to do this, but I may be confusing the features with another model. Otherwise there's always the Radio Shack meter and test tones I suppose. The question is, is it worth it? Thanks! |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1033 Registered: Apr-06 | "The question is, is it worth it?" Short answer is no. You will have no idea what the results will be of your experiment until after you have devoted significant time and money into the endeavor. Longer answer: The RS meter will not suffice as a tool to fine tune the response of a pair of speakers. Plainly put, it isn't *that* accurate. You will need better and more expensive equipment to do the job. Moreover, keep in mind how the measurement should be taken. Ideally, you'd take it in an anechoic chamber. Since I doubt you have access to one, taking the speakers outside into a flat plain with no structures nearby would suffice. And to reiterate, even if these things measure out perfectly, there is by no means a guarantee that it will sound better than before to your ears, or even as good as before. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1034 Registered: Apr-06 | Also, just to make sure, you realize that with an active XO, you will require a separate channel of amplification for each frequency range, right? IOW, for a pair of three way speakers, you will need six channels of amplification. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 2079 Registered: Feb-04 | Thus the HT receiver with a 6-channel analog input. The bonus is that I could keep the Behringer running hot, outputting near-max voltage instead of 30 dB down when I listen softly, and control the volume after the Behringer with the HT receiver volume control. I initially thought of using the usual 3 power amplifiers, but without a volume control after the Behringer that wasn't ideal. |
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New member Username: DmanwithnonameLondon, Ontario Post Number: 10 Registered: Sep-07 | I would think at an engineering level the cross over designed for the speaker would give you overall the best results based on the fact that it is designed with the cabinet and the driver(s) involved given an overall best case scenerio. However the arguement i see against what you suuggest is that the room might be the source of some of the problems you might be trying to solve. I am an automotive technician and the best analaogy i can give here, given my limited education is a comparison of snow tires vs all season tires. It really depends on the environment they perform on and the type of performance you hope to achieve over all. Given my recent enthusiasm in audio i maybe should have chosen a different career... anyways Most tests are done in an anechoic chamber and do not reflect room refelctions or room induced peaks. If you can somehow try to tune your speakers to the room instead of tuning the room to the speakers, you may come up with intersting results. It obviously is a more expensive route to go, that being said is probally why room treatments are more popular. I am not a sound engineer just a hobbyist. Three questions. 1. Is the room treated and if not have you tried room treament? 2. All all the amplifliers the same for "tri-amplification"? Like same brand/wattage/perhaps even speaker wiring for that matter, and if so is this a choice you have chosen through experience to match what you would like hear synergeritically with the speakers that you own (provided that is a word) 3. How do you adjust time alignment, is this in a unit of measure measurment like metre/second? And what would you use as a reference? I think this in intersting idea. I wanted to perform a similiar idea about 3 years ago and was wisley talked out of it. I was dating a girl in sound engineering I had no clue but reading some of her textbooks was intersting......lol But at the time i didn't know about products like the one you mention. Nor did i have expensible cash. Is there any other better than beringer?? Too bad i don't still have her number i could ask her a few questions..... lol |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 2080 Registered: Feb-04 | I would think at an engineering level the cross over designed for the speaker would give you overall the best results based on the fact that it is designed with the cabinet and the driver(s) involved given an overall best case scenerio. There are several designs available, but there are limit (and advantages) to passive crossovers. One is time-delay and the limited ability to do anything about it. I'm not sure how much of an issue it is, but I'm curious. The passive crossover I might upgrade to if I don't go the active route is: http://www.alkeng.com/ap_xo.html I'm not trying to really fix anything wrong, just looking to see if it can be made better. 1. Is the room treated and if not have you tried room treatment? It's not even finished yet. That's a plan in parallel. :-) All all the amplifliers the same for "tri-amplification"? Like I said, I'd try to use an HT receiver, so yes. How do you adjust time alignment, is this in a unit of measure measurment like metre/second? And what would you use as a reference? The Behringer digitizes analog inputs at 96/24 (and accepts an digital input from a CD or SACD player for example) then all the filtering and delays are done in the digital domain, then DAC'ed to analog outputs. Some of these units (not sure about the Behringer) have microphones that analyse the sound and adjust accordingly. The Behringer interfaces with a computer and is computer-controlled and programmed when this is done. Some delay numbers have already been published: the midrange is 1.68 mS behind the tweeter and the woofer is 8.4 mS behind the tweeter (from a generous poster on another forum). These would be a starting point to experiment with if I tried this. |
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Bronze Member Username: DmanwithnonameLondon, Ontario Post Number: 11 Registered: Sep-07 | how much is the beringer? you are in quebec?? I am in ontario, a friend of mine deals with this type of equipment. I may be able to get you a deal, no guarentees though. |
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Bronze Member Username: DmanwithnonameLondon, Ontario Post Number: 12 Registered: Sep-07 | your thinking is fresh, i like it. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 954 Registered: Nov-06 | how would you drive your speakers with a crossover? isn't that the job of the amplification equipment? |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1035 Registered: Apr-06 | With six channels of the HK receiver Gavin. |
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Gold Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1036 Registered: Apr-06 | Pete: On the pro side at least, it is reversible if worse comes to worse. If you're interested in seeing what is possible though, I would highly suggest listening to one of the above mentioned speakers, the NHT Xd or the BeoLab 5. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 2081 Registered: Feb-04 | That's right Stephen, It is reversible! And not too expensive to try. The unit are still overpriced in Canada (unless dman can get a sweet price! That's a nice offer even it it doesn't pan out! Thanks!) but they sell for around $270 in the US, and I'm told you can get them for $200 or so. Not bad. There are a few issues to deal with if I try it, over and above the purchase price. I'd need 6 XRL to unbalanced RCA adapters (or cables), and a way to attenuate the output from pro-level 8V to home audio 1V. There _might_ be an internal configuration for that, but probably not. I haven't had time to read the downloaded PDF manual yet. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2404 Registered: Sep-04 | Peter, In theory, all things being equal, using an active crossover has many benefits over passive, most especially lower distortion levels (about 10-fold). With systems designed for the purpose, these benefits are optimised. However, I am concerned that in your case, this is less likely to be the case. The crossover, whether active or passive has to split the signals appropriately for the drive units and the enclosures in which they're placed. Looking at the blurb, it may be that you can set the Behringer up for all these parameters. As to the digital connection of your SACD player, that should be at high quality too. But this business of attenutating the output from 8V to 2V (domestic is 2V, not 1V, for line inputs such as your 6-ch multi-input), that worries me. That kind of thing often has a real toll on quality. Good luck,  Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: DmanwithnonameLondon, Ontario Post Number: 13 Registered: Sep-07 | I called my friend Henery today I can get it only for 20 percent minus list, with taxes that puts you about $378.59, then i would have to ship it So i'm not sure it would be worth it, sorry. The list is $389.99 before taxes. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 2085 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks dman. I figured the States would likely be cheaper than the best deal possible in Canada. Paradigm actually sell their speakers cheaper in California than in Ontario! Frank, it might not be so bad because simply going from balanced to unbalanced RCA shaves it from 8V to 4V. Only another 3 dB to go (thanks for the correction). It can likely be done in the Behringer menu by losing 3 dB of quantization dynamic range without any external attenuation. Still, someone on another forum told me about an easy mod to reduce the output stage voltage to home grade. Thanks again! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11459 Registered: May-04 | . Is it worth it? In this situation, no. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 2090 Registered: Feb-04 | That's a very convincing and helpful contribution. Thanks. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11460 Registered: May-04 | . I can contribute more if this will be a civil discussion. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8831 Registered: Dec-04 | The tradeoff from balanced to unbalanced does not only negate the 4v gain, but the attendant noise floor reduction of the connection. I looked into this a few months back, using the Behringer for a 2 way(cheaper) for TW3 speakers. The greatest benefit for these is time coherence and balanced mono amps, which is the original idea. The time delays are meant for bins at varying depths on a stage, as are the other functions, includung the balance, keeping a common reference within the cables, as opposed to externally. This is the floor benefit. The setup is really made for mono amps, or at least mono channels. Pete, I am not sure how your receiver would produce 6 mono channels. That's my take, and I may yet do it, as the TW's have new tweets ready to go in, and questionable XO's, could be replaced. Cheers! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 2095 Registered: Feb-04 | Pete, I am not sure how your receiver would produce 6 mono channels. Can you elaborate? Why would it not? I get 6 mono channels now for SACDs. What's the difference? |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 2117 Registered: Feb-04 | Nuck, Forget the SACD remark. Yeah, that's what I use the 6-channel input for right now, but one of those input is for LFE and so isn't amplified. But the 6-channel input is actually a 6/8-channel input on a 7.1 receiver. So of those 8 channels, I have 7 that are amplified. I could use any 6 to drive the 6 drivers of the pair of speakers. I might put the project on hold until I need to upgrade my receiver to HDMI. Then I could use my current receiver for that amplification task. Last week someone was selling an h/k 7200 for $350! That would work well as an amplifier! I'm sure that as HDMI becomes a necessity, a lot of otherwise very good receivers will flood the used market. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1212 Registered: Nov-04 | Peter, I have been considering something similar and have been scoping ebay and audiogon for something reasonable with no avail. I did find a really nice 3 way pioneer crossover but it was out of my price bracket, it sold for $600+. I have the amplifiers for the job but I would also like to see if the active route will provide a significant increase in sound quality. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8907 Registered: Dec-04 | I was considering the 2-way Behringer XO's and a 5 channel Rotel amp that is kicking around. The Rotel is unbalanced, however, so I see diminished value there. Peter, I didn't know your receiver did all channels mono, that's handy indeed! As opposed to just pre-outs. If I try this out, it will be with another stereo amp, maybe a small Classe? |
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