Paradigm/B&W
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New member Username: Derek19Post Number: 1 Registered: Sep-07 | My stereo/family room is approx 20 x 18 with 9' ceiling. My components are NAD C325BEE amp and NAD 525BEE cd player. My speaker search has come down to two, Paradigm Monitor 7 and B& W 603 (demos).Please help me with 3 questions. 1. Will the NAD 50w amp drive both speakers well? 2. Speakers/amp enough (or too much)for room size? 3. What is the best connection to get the most out of an Ipod? I know, compressed music. But for some situations they're so convenient. Thanks, dd |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 955 Registered: Apr-06 | 1. The NAD is of respectable quality and should be able to handle the electrical load that either speaker represents. However, things like how loud you like to listen will play a significant role in how well it drives them. 2. That combo certainly won't overload a room of that size. Depending on your tastes, how far away you sit, etc, the setup may benefit from the addition of a subwoofer. However, its difficult to say what exactly will happen. 3. Presuming this isn't going to be for critical listening, I suspect a 1/8" to Stereo RCA cable from Radio Shack will do the trick for roughly $3-5. I doubt the docks would do much better qualitatively. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5369 Registered: Feb-05 | Which Monitor 7? It appears you don't have the current to adequately drive either speaker but least of all the B&W. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8692 Registered: Dec-04 | Derek, I would stay away from the 603. All B&W's in fact. That great little NAD would need a rather efficient speaker to shine. B&W ain't that. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 957 Registered: Apr-06 | The 603s aren't *that* inefficient (they're actually above average). Needless to say, I wouldn't use them coupled with the NAD for a block party though. And presuming its the new Monitor 7s, the new Paradigm line is reputed to be fairly efficient as well. Of course the preferred way of making sure is to listen in either case. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 905 Registered: Nov-06 | there have been reports here that the new Monitor 7's don't really measure up to the older series. I can't comment on this. I have not heard them yet. FWIW, I felt that the previous series Monitor 7 was a rich, smooth sounding speaker with full bass. Going by specs alone, one can expect the previous Monitor 7's to have deeper bass, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they have better bass. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 411 Registered: Jun-07 | Gavin - the reports are true. The new version of the Monitor Series are not as good as the last version. They have slightly made them cheaper while putting more money into the Studio and Signature speakers. They still sound like a Paradigm speaker, just not quit as nice I found. Still a great value though. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 907 Registered: Nov-06 | Although Art says that the new Atoms are by far and away better than the last ones... |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 412 Registered: Jun-07 | yeah, I read a review that said that as well. See the Atoms were in the performance series before, so any model they have moved up into the monitor series are an improvement over the last version of performance speaker. Its the old model of Monitor Series that are worse. I think what they did, improved the performance series, downgraded the monitor series for one budget series. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1311 Registered: Oct-04 | I had a chance to audition the new Paradigm Monitor Atom, Mini, and Titan today, along with the Reference Studio 20 v.4. I was not that familiar with the previous Monitor series, I had heard them, but they did not leave a lasting impression. I was pretty familiar with the Studio 20 v.3, and this was my first go around with the v.4. While they remain one of the best speakers under $1000, very warm, thick sound, albeit a bit fussy with placement, I was less impressed with the Studio 20 than I had been in the past, perhaps because of my time with the Mission M32i & more recently the Infinity Beta 20, which I am more & more impressed with after today. (On a side note, I auditioned these speakers at Sound City in NYC, a truly terrible place to audition equipment, a tangle of boxes & speakers, with what seems to be the same sales-guy I meet in every Hi-Fi shop. You know him, nice, late 50's, bad diet, bad suit & tie, bad mouths what he doesn't sell, who feels the need to get his grove on when he plays his favorite jazz tune that I've never heard, and of course is always eager to play the tune dujour, which is always Nora Jones) I remain rather unimpressed with the Monitor series. The series sounded much better as you progressed up the line, but as a whole very forward and bright. I also had the chance to listen to the Boston Acoustics CR67 at Harvey Electronics (I had owned the CR77 for a short while, but sold them off). Comprable to the Atom, the CR67 is about $100 less, and handled everything I threw at it like a pro. Dead-neutral, well rounded, with beautiful imaging, reminiscent of British speakers. Today, I liked the CR67 better than the Atom. There are several outstanding sub-$200 bookshelves between Boston's CR series & Infinity's Primus (and even the Beta 20 series which can readily be found for under $200/pr.) to choose from, that I'm confident are, at the very least, competitive with the Paradigm Monitor series. ...next, the new B&W 685 & 686. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5374 Registered: Feb-05 | Gavin, the new Atom Monitor is far better than the previous incarnation in every way I can think of from bass extension to efficiency. It's a smooth well integrated speaker. Stephen, the B&W's are relatively efficient on paper but that doesn't tell the whole story and they can be a bear to drive without an amp with plenty of current. I didn't make the assumption that the Monitor 7's were the new ones or I would simply have stated that I would not recommend them. The whole Monitor series with the exception of the Atoms and 9's are very poor sounding and I would not recommend them. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5375 Registered: Feb-05 | The local Paradigm dealer and friend of mine for 20 + years is also a Boston dealer and I don't agree with Christopher's conclusions...not to my ears anyway. We do agree that many of the new Monitor series leave alot to be desired...the worst of the bunch is the Titan....huge gap in the midrange...absolutely awful speaker. However as I stated above the new Atom is my recommended speaker in it's price range, especially for use with a low power amp. Where we really disagree is with regard to the Boston's. I really don't like the CR series at all...very bright and forward and I have driven them with some pretty good gear. I find that the Infinity Primus series is a remarkably good sounding speaker for one so poorly constructed. Not the best fit and finish but a real performer for the outlay. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 964 Registered: Apr-06 | Art: I was going by Stereophile's electrical measurements and JA's commentary. They classify it as "moderately difficult", and from I see, I suspect the NAD ought to do the job for most moderate listening, although it obviously isn't going to drive them as well as something more robust (and expensive). |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 417 Registered: Jun-07 | I totally agree with Art on this one. The previous Monitor series were a great speaker for the price, well rounded in most area's. When I seen and listened to the new monitor series I almost puked. I thought to myself "what have they done to the monitor series" with exception to the new Atom's and Monitor 9's. The new Atoms are arguably the best speaker I have heard in that price range. And where the old Monitor 9's use to be the weak spot in the monitor series, the new Monitor 9's are the star in the new monitor series. From what I have read in reviews and from listening with my own ears and my dealer, the new Studio Series and Signature series are both improved. The Signature series makes me sweat. Just insane how good they sound to me. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1312 Registered: Oct-04 | Well, I might be in the minority here, but I call it as I hear it. Art, have you seen any of the new Primus models (i.e. P152, P162), or are you basing you opinion on the previous series? Not that it should matter much, but there's a very positive review of the P162 in the Oct/07 issue of Stereophile. We'll have to agree to disagree regarding the Boston CR series, I found them neither bright nor forward, and listened to them through four-different rigs, a entry-level Marantz, a NAD, a NAD Master Series, and finally a McIntosh, finding the NAD Master Series the best match. I enjoyed the pair thoroughly. The Atom sells for $249/pr. (perhaps a bit lower with some negotiation), and while the idea of buying a pair of Paradigms for that price is quite alluring, especially now that the B&W 300 series is gone (for now?), there are several speakers in that price range, including the vastly superior Infinity Beta 20, the Monitor Audio Bronze B1 & B2 (on close-out) & the Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 & 9.2 (if you can get them), that absolutely sounded better than the Atoms, Minis, and Titans I heard today. And yes, the Reference & Signature series do not in ANY way, shape, or form resemble the Monitor series, and remain amongst them best speakers on the market, IMHO. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5376 Registered: Feb-05 | Listened to and viewed them both, prefer the look of the previous...Primus that is. Everything sounds better than the Titans...  ! Back to the original poster, he never answered which Monitor 7's, we have no idea of budget and what is his objective. I say why waste more time and energy on it..what do you think Christopher. BTW I do still like the other Paradigm speakers but have some questions relative to QC with them... |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1313 Registered: Oct-04 | It is possible the conditions were so g-d awful that all the Monitor series I listened to were compromised, but I did listen to the Studio 20 in the same room, and they sounded great. I'm going to try to listen to those Atoms somewhere else, just to double-check. Let me also expand a bit on what I said about the Infinity Beta 20 as they compare to the Studio 20 v.4. If I had to choose between the two, I'd be silly not to choose the Studio 20, but the Beta 20 cost about 1/4 the price of the Studio 20, and that has to count for something. That's why I'm happy with the Beta 20. However, I would love to A-B the Beta 20 against several other higher-end bookshelf models, including the Studio 20. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5377 Registered: Feb-05 | Stephen, moderately difficult is more than I would want to drive with a BEE. It can drive them but you'll never hear what they are capable of...that's really where I'm coming from. So we agree it seems. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 920 Registered: Nov-06 | Art, It is interesting that you hated the Titan Monitors, which replaced the Monitor 3 AFAIK. I hated the Monitor 3 for the same reason that you described for the Titan Monitor. I felt that the midrange was terrible (disconnected sounding), and that the speakers also sounded rather boxy (you didn't mention that with the Titan Monitors) |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5378 Registered: Feb-05 | There are so many things wrong with the sound of the Titan Monitor that I don't really know where to start....generally though boxy is not a term I ever use to describe speakers, it's not really a part of my audio vocabulary. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 421 Registered: Jun-07 | The Titan Monitors are absolutely brutal. The monitor 3's were never that great, thats why I use them as surround sound speakers. lol for a bookshelf they can fill a decent size room but for music I wouldn't recommend them. That and I got them new for 200 when they retailed for 550.lol. Art knows his Paradigm speakers, he was the first guy Ive ever talked to that actually knew the Studio Monitors. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 925 Registered: Nov-06 | The Minis I loved. They had the warmth and richness of the Monitor 7's, but lacking the bass extension and volume. I guess I am going to have to check out the new Monitor lineup for myself, but going by what you all have said, I will not be impressed. Has Paradigm voiced the new speakers to compete with Klipsch? According to the Monitor website..."These models compete directly with the efficiency and output of major brands of horn speakers..", and some comments on this thread have commented that they are quite bright. If so, I would expect these speakers to stick out like a sore thumb in the paradigm lineup. And if they re-vamp the whole lineup to sound like this, there goes the budget audiophile following that they pride themselves on. Now I like certain Klipsch speakers... But Klipsch Paradigm is not. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 422 Registered: Jun-07 | The monitor series does not compare to the budget Klipsch speaker anymore. Side by side comparison the Klipsch wins now. But when you get up into the Reference series for each speaker, the Paradigm's destroy the Klipsch. Klipsch dont even make a speaker that compares to Paradigms Signature series. Whole other league. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 927 Registered: Nov-06 | Nick, Klipsch has the heritage series, which is priced at $1400 and up per pair, and that competes with the signature series.. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 423 Registered: Jun-07 | The Signature's start at around 3 grand and go up to 10 grand. IMO the Signature sound better than the Heritage series. Thats just my opinion though. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 969 Registered: Apr-06 | "The Signature's start at around 3 grand and go up to 10 grand." Klipsch also has... http://www.klipsch.com/news-center/press-releases/details/klipsch-palladium-floo rstander-a-symbol-of-supreme-luxury.aspx "IMO the Signature sound better than the Heritage series. Thats just my opinion though." Just depends on what you listen for. The S8 has a completely different set of strengths than the Klipschorn, so debating which is the absolute better is an exercise in futility IMO. I suspect if people off the street heard the two speakers though, they would likely prefer the massive dynamic capability of the K-horn 9 times out of 10. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5380 Registered: Feb-05 | Paradigm compromised their sound with the Monitor series to dramatically increase their efficiency. Why? So that they can be driven to high SPL's with low current AVR's. A paradigm shift for them, if you will pardon the pun. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 929 Registered: Nov-06 | Sad to say, but this may be the beginning of the end for Paradigm. I really hope not, because I really enjoy the sound of many of the speakers they produce(d). |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 426 Registered: Jun-07 | Me too, lets hope not Gavin. Unfortunately I can see the Monitor series going to a big box store in the next 5 years next to Polk and Energy. If that happens I will sell all of my speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1317 Registered: Oct-04 | "Me too, lets hope not Gavin. Unfortunately I can see the Monitor series going to a big box store in the next 5 years next to Polk and Energy. If that happens I will sell all of my speakers." Why would you do that? Do you think Paradigm would like to sell their Monitor series speakers at BIG BOX stores and perhaps make more money, some of which might go into R&D and lead to advances that might find its way into other products? Just a thought. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8713 Registered: Dec-04 | Gimme an example of when THAT strategy worked out well, Gavin. When you sell to WalMart, or BB or CC, it eats up all of your manufacturing facilities, and provides .5% of profit. The people who get sucked into this train of thought end up investing large sums to satisfy the volume, only hoping to make money on the volumes of material rewuired to fill these orders. The leftover % is for good stuff, if that is possible. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1318 Registered: Oct-04 | Actually it was me Nuck. Panasonic, LG, Sony, Toshiba, Hitachi, Samsung, Pioneer, and Harmon all manage to handle the pressure & still find time for a little R&D. Yeah, yeah, I know, the whole China/slave-wages vs. Canada & the living wage thing, well there must be some sort of model, that I'm unaware of, that must strike a balance, and serve both the BIG BOX store & the manufacturer well, dont'cha think? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8720 Registered: Dec-04 | sorry cm Not working country to country here, even within the US. I work with a lot of manufacturers and packager that supply Wal Mart. 90% capacity to get .5% of return, under brutish control. The only thing that the company gets out of it is purchase volume. This volume can be used at a better price to make a profit from the other lines that they sell, under other labels. Not the same product, mind you(think trail mix), but better pricing on high value items, to be mixed at a premium, under a premium label. BTW, not all trail mix are the same. wink. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1319 Registered: Oct-04 | Well there you go, cheaper Reference series for the masses. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8725 Registered: Dec-04 | If I were more sober, I bet I could make an anagram of your post, CM. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1320 Registered: Oct-04 | If you were less sober, you might even try to make a mamogram of my post, Nuck. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2097 Registered: May-05 | "Unfortunately I can see the Monitor series going to a big box store in the next 5 years next to Polk and Energy. If that happens I will sell all of my speakers." How exactly will this make your current speakers bad? I could understand the arguement about future speakers that'll potentially be sold at big box stores, but how does that change and worsen the quality of speakers that have already been manufactured, and what I assume to be satisfactory to you? If Rega upgrades or downgrades the Apollo next week, my Apollo won't all of a sudden sound any different, will it? |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 434 Registered: Jun-07 | "How exactly will this make your current speakers bad? I could understand the arguement about future speakers that'll potentially be sold at big box stores, but how does that change and worsen the quality of speakers that have already been manufactured, and what I assume to be satisfactory to you?" My comments about selling my speakers were suppose to be a joke.lol sorry. But you are right Stu, I wouldn't sell my Studio Monitor's for the world. Or if I were to upgrade in the future they could be used in a second system. That wont be for a while, because I plan on upgrading the cd player first. Perhaps the Apollo. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8728 Registered: Dec-04 | Perhaps? PERHAPS? Nick, you will not find a better cd player for under 1600$. Anywhere new. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 436 Registered: Jun-07 | True. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8733 Registered: Dec-04 | You have that in writing, Nick. And I have/have tried a lot of sources. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 438 Registered: Jun-07 | It will probably be my next purchase. I am keeping my eyes open. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 439 Registered: Jun-07 | no wait... It WILL be my next purchase.lol. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8735 Registered: Dec-04 | I regretted a few audio purchases in my time. Tha Apollo ain't one of them. I reviewed the Rega very well against the Rotel 1072 and the Classe Trans/Dac a while back, not knowing that the DAC had issues that ultimately led to the units need for repair. After the fix, I will try again, next time including the S/PDIF feed form the pc to the DAC. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 441 Registered: Jun-07 | Right on. I have heard first hand the Rotel 1072. Nice player, but to my ears seemed a bit cold on certain music. It was missing something. That said, it is a better player then I have myself. But don't think I would consider it. My dealer has a Bryston cd player that I will look at. It will probably be quit a bit more money than the Apollo. Either way, I can't wait. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2098 Registered: May-05 | I think the Bryston CD player is around $2600 USD. Has anyone heard it yet? I wonder how it compares against the Rega Saturn and Naim CD5x. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1322 Registered: Oct-04 | Has anyone seen or made a comparison between the Rega Apollo & Saturn? |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 710 Registered: May-06 | NMyTree owns two Apollos and a Saturn I think. Haven't seen him on this forum for a while. I had an Apollo, now have a Saturn, some others here have heard both. Apollo is strong with acoustical and vocals, Saturn has fuller bass, timing seems better to me, but I have made several other changes in my system and set-up to contribute more than that as a number of other factors now play into why the Saturn works better for me. I felt it was worth the $$$ to upgrade. Mainly Classic Rock in case you were going to ask. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1324 Registered: Oct-04 | 120% more seems like a lot to pay for what surmounts to what you describe as subtleties, having found strengths in both models. But we are audiophiles, it's all about the subtleties. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 445 Registered: Jun-07 | Just came back from Just Hi-Fi and the wife and I were cruising downtown today just window shopping. Stu- I heard the Bryston CD player today, amazing. $3300 CDN. I also listened to the Rotel 1072 again, the NAD 542 and an Arcam(forget the model)The best of the bunch was the Bryston, dead accurate and fast. The Arcam was best out of the last three, all roughly the same price. I ended up just walking out of there for now with a 150 dollar pair of cables for the cd player. Ultralink Pro cables. Im still outing for the Rega Apollo, still my favorite 1000 dollar cd player I have heard. Arcam was very close though. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 459 Registered: Jun-07 | http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/907para/ For whats its worth, here is a review on the new Atoms. Stereophile love them. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1330 Registered: Oct-04 | And for what it's worth, in addition to the aforementioned review of in Oct/07 issue of the Infinity Primus P162, here's a review of the previous generation Infinity Primus 150 http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcomponents/404infinity/index.html "The Paradigm Atom's midbass warmth made the reproduction of the bass drum a bit more prominent than through the Infinity, and the Atom has a warm, balanced sound overall. However, the Paradigm didn't approach the Infinity's high-frequency articulation and extension, nor did it resolve as much inner midrange detail. High-level dynamics were also constrained through the Paradigm, though the Infinity had superior low-level dynamic articulation." Not exactly a clear-cut decision. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 461 Registered: Jun-07 | Sounds like he prefered te Infinity for sure.lol. It kind of sounded like the guy of Sterephile sorta prefered the PSB speaker in most cases as well. I think any one of the three are a super good value at 300 bucks.lol. Like the guy of sterephile said, "Who needs Low End when great sound can be had for 300 dollars" or something of the sort. I do like the Infinity speakers for the price. Harman Corp make good stuff. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1331 Registered: Oct-04 | That they do, but for some reason Infinity gets a pretty cool reception from most audiophiles, that is until they get a chance to listen to them. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 462 Registered: Jun-07 | Yeah, never really understood that. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 988 Registered: Apr-06 | Too readily available and well known. Audiophiles like obscure brands that the average joe has never heard of. Duh  |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1332 Registered: Oct-04 | Hence your Emmas & my Tektons. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 991 Registered: Apr-06 | Exactly! And Jan's Rogers, and Art's Regas, and Gavin's Magnepans, etc. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2105 Registered: May-05 | At this pricepoint, I'd look into PSB. They're easier to drive than the B&Ws and sound better to my ears than the B&Ws and Paradigms mentioned here. I had a 320BEE driving a pair of PSB Image T55s with very good results. The T45 may be a tad easier to drive though. For bookshelves, the PSB Image bookshelves are the speakers to beat at their respective pricepoints IMO. They're better than anything else out there in pretty much every way. Again, just my opinion. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 464 Registered: Jun-07 | He is right, although the new Atoms have gained some ground, at that price point the PSB's are still the top performer. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1333 Registered: Oct-04 | I'd still say you're selling yourself short if you don't audition the Wharfedale Diamond & Monitor Audio Bronze at that same pricepoint. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 465 Registered: Jun-07 | Thats also true, I like the Monitor audio Bronze speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 731 Registered: May-06 | Nuck is liking is Monitor Audio Silver 8i's, I however will shamelessly self-promote my even more obscure Anthony Gallo Ref. 3.1a's. Not as a recommendation to derek, just to contend they belong in the "obscurer" classification. LOL |
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