Stereo receiver with digital inputs?
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Bronze Member Username: Hank_hillPost Number: 11 Registered: May-06 | Hey all, My current setup is a NAD L53 DVD-Receiver, Totem Arro's and a Slimdevices Squeezebox. I was pretty content with this combination for casual moderate level listening...until during some renovations I moved the Totem's downstairs and hooked them to my Outlaw 1070 receiver with a Yamaha DVD-c750 SACD/DVD-A changer and Paradigm PS1000 sub. The sound was generally better for most music but substantially better for some music (partiuclarly U2 for some reason). The highs and lows were a lot more apparent/dynamic particularly at increased volume. As well the it wasn't as apparent that the sound was coming directly from the speakers but was just 'there'. So, now the dilemma. I want to keep the Squeezebox as the source for convenience sake but would like better sound - which I know the Arro's are capable of. The LC53 doesn't have pre-amp outs so I can't add an external amp. I'm not crazy about adding another sub --- there's no good place to put one not to mention the WAF factor. So, that basically leaves me the option of replacing the L53. I prefer the digital input from the Squeezebox so the replacment amp should also have a digital input. Since I like the Outlaw sound, I was thinking about the RR2150 but it doesn't accept digital input (other than via USB). 1. Stereo receiver or even an integrated(I don't need a radio) with digital input, are there any such beasts in the, say $500-$1000 range? 2. A/V Receiver that has a good reputation for stereo sound...hmmm I guess I could try the Outlaw 1070/Slimdevices/Arro combo to see how I like that before going any further. I guess I'm also assuming that it was the Outlaw 1070 vs NAD L53 that was responsible for the improvment and not the DVD player vs Squeezebox... Thanks for any suggestions, Hank |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11234 Registered: May-04 | . Or the room? The room is what you hear, it is the largest influence on the overall sound. That is not to say you can't do better than your NAD combo unit. . |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 933 Registered: Apr-06 | The Squeezebox is actually a very respectable source presuming you're using lossless files. Between that and the differences in receivers, I'd tend to think the receiver is responsible for the change you heard. However, there are certainly other possibilities including room effects that will have an impact on what you hear. To the main question, the only stereo receiver or integrated amp I can think of off the top of my head that even has an option for a DAC is a relatively expensive Bryston model. If you went with a typical AV receiver in the 500-1000 range, I doubt you'd get a significant upgrade in terms of stereo listening over the NAD you currently own. Personally, if you are that unhappy with it, I'd consider a third option: integrated amp coupled with an external DAC. Of course, if it were my money, I'd get the integrated amp first (or Outlaw stereo receiver if you feel their sound complements your gear that much), and see how the analog outs on the Squeezebox sound. As I understand it, they aren't that bad, and you'd probably need to spend a decent chunk of change to do significantly better. I doubt any receiver in the $500 range would be appreciably better in that regard. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 367 Registered: Jun-07 | "I guess I'm also assuming that it was the Outlaw 1070 vs NAD L53 that was responsible for the improvment and not the DVD player vs Squeezebox... " Probably. The 1070 is a nice piece. The L53 is the all to end all ENTRY level at best for NAD. Stick a T754 or something like that from NAD, and then you have a fair comparison. There is a few NAD integrated amps in the 500-1000 dollar price range that will also blow the L53 out of the water. Also Outlaw has one I believe as well in that price range. That said, even with a fair comparison, doesnt mean you wont like the Outlaw sound better. |
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Bronze Member Username: Hank_hillPost Number: 12 Registered: May-06 | Jan, Hmmm...I handn't considered the effect of the room, unfortunately that's not something I have any control over. The NAD setup is in a 12 x 10 family room, lots of windows, carpeted and open to a larger tiled kitchen area. The basement is all carpeted and has less windows. Stephen, Yes, it is the Apple lossless format I'm using. I'm not that unhappy with it, it's just I've led myself to believe for a modest amount of money I can get a significantly better sound...I could be wrong on that count though if it's really the room. I preferred the digital vs analog connection from the Squeezebox, although I guess I could swap in different cables (the one's I tried are the one's that ship with the unit). The sound level is also quite a bit lower (with the Squeezebox output at 80/100). I don't think I'll venture down the external DAC route though. Nick K, I was thinking maybe the C352 or C372 if I could live with the analog input. Any opinion if the C372 is worth the extra cash or if the C352 would suffice considering the source+speakers? I guess I should try a few combinations with my existing equipment (1070/Squeezebox/Arros, L53/Yamaha SACD player/Arros) in both rooms to try and figure out what makes sense, if anything, to replace. That might drive the wife a bit wooly though  Hank |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2356 Registered: Sep-04 | Strong recommendation: Take the L53 down to the same room briefly and try it there instead of your 1070. This will demonstrate the difference between the L53's capabilities and your 1070's. If the sound is largely better or even acceptable this way, then the problem lies in the source and/or room. The only way I can think of to figure this out is by carting the lot into the other room... Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 381 Registered: Jun-07 | Hank- I think the C352 would be good enough. Frank's idea of taking the L53 downstairs is a great idea. I would try that first. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2357 Registered: Sep-04 | Incidentally, I would not be surprised if the L53 wasn't up to the task of driving Arros. The Arro is fairly difficult to drive and the L53 is a relatively low-powered unit, designed for more benign loads. I can't think of anything in your price range off the top of my head, but there are people around offering integrated amplifiers with built-in DACs. I know what I'd recommend but we're talking closer to $4500...! Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: MejiroPost Number: 1 Registered: Sep-07 | I think the Music Hall Maven has digital inputs; lots of places sell it for $1000 these days. Let us know what you end up doing. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2085 Registered: May-05 | SuperNait per chance, Frank? Hank, I'm surprised you got any good result from the L53 with the Arros. As Frank mentioned, the Arros need a lot of current the the L53 isn't capable of, nor was really designed to push out. The Arros don't require a lot of power in terms of wattage, but they need a very strong, or should I say stable power supply. The power supply should be able to deal with low impedences for good amounts of time without breaking a sweat. The Arro is a very deceiving speaker, due mainly to its price. At $1250 or so, it seems like a budget speaker. Truth is, it needs very good amplification that costs just as much as the speakers as a bare minimum in most cases IMO. I would cross NAD off the list altogether. They don't work that well with Totem for some reason. The 352 has more than enough power, but for some reason doesn't deliver it properly in this scenario. I'd look into Arcam, Naim, and Rega as minimums. I haven't heard Naim and Rega paired up with Arros. I've heard the Naim Nait 5i and Arros combine great, but haven't heard how the Rega Mira 3 pairs up with it. Arcam's lowest end integrated, the A65+, drives the Arros pretty well. The next step up (A85?) does a great job. Bryston and Simaudio also pair up very well with it. The Bryston B60 can be found occasionally for about $1000 used. Simaudio is releasing or just released a new integrated, the i3 for about $1500. Haven't seen or heard it yet, but generally speaking Simaudio has a very good synergy with Totem. FWIW, someone here posted a while back that through e-mail, Totem recommends the Arcam A65+ for the Arros over any NAD. This was before the Master Series though. The A65+ has about half the wattage as the 372, further proving its not about wattage. On a side note, I'm a huge of the Arros. I did a lot of research on them w while back when I was overhauling the system. I'm waiting to buy a house before new speakers, and the Arros are at the top of my list to try out in the room. |
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Bronze Member Username: Hank_hillPost Number: 14 Registered: May-06 | Thanks for the advice guys, I appreciate the comments. I hope to have some time this weekend to try a few different setups. One thing I did notice was that the Arro's seem to be sensitive to how the speaker wire is connected. It may sound absurd but connecting the '-' wire to the LF connector and the '+' to the HF connector, with the brass clips in place, I could play music at a louder level and have it still sound clean. Perhaps something was just loose before and this exercise tightened it... I was going to try replacing the brass clips with a section of speaker wire next. I emailed NAD about using the L53 with a 4ohm load speaker and they did not recommend it. They said the L53 was safe down to a 6 ohm load but to not go below that. I mentioned this to the local dealer where I bought the combo and they replied that they had sold many Arro/L53 combos and haven't had any reported problems. They would not take the L53 back as a trade-in but were willing to give me 20% off a C372. They said they didn't have any Arcam products in the $1000 price range ( I would have thought the A70 would have been maybe a bit over $1000 but prices can be funny here in Canada particularly for manufactures with a single nationwide distributor). I'm kind of suprised they're selling a combo that NAD doesn't recommend though. Stu Pitt, the L53/Arro combo isn't bad...it's just not great either. I think the amps you mentioned are out of the price range I am considering at the moment. The Creek Evo is probably the closest at $1150 retail, I think the Rega Mira is closer to $1500, and the Naim Nait 5i is around $1800. Do you think it would really be worth getting one of these amps considering that I am using the Squeezbox and have no plans to buy an expensive CD player? Another option I was considering was the Outlaw RR2150 which is rated for 4 ohm loads. I was going to try the Squeezebox next with analog connection to the Outlaw 1070 to see if it sounds reasonable. With the L53 the digigal input was much better, which is why I was considering an amp with a digital input to begin with but if the Outlaw is fine with the analog inputs then an analog integrated amp should do fine. Hank |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8640 Registered: Dec-04 | Hank, you have a fine choice of componants there. The box is a workable solution as compared to a mid level cdp. My notion is towards a Rega Apollo, but my digital sources are working just fine, as will your Squuezebox. Absolutely. The Outlaw rr2150 is a nice peice, if you can get one. Last I heard they were short of supply again, dur to demand(like they would say anything different). These are Chinese made componants, far away from the US made originals. The Rega Mira?, Well, the whole Rega setup is best, but a Mira3 is a solid bet. I like the Outlaw for your bucks. Gawd, I love spending your money! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2091 Registered: May-05 | Hank, I didn't realize you were in Canada. My mistake. In the States, the Mira 3 is about $1000, and the Nait is about $1400. Also, I didn't realize that Arcam discontinued the A65+. It was about $600 here in the States, which would have fit in your budget. Their entry level is now the A70, which retails for $1000 here. No idea what it goes for in Canada. I haven't heard the Creek Evo, but I'm pretty sure it would drive the Arros pretty well. I can't comment on how it would sound. If you liked what the Outlaw receiver sounded like with your Arros, I'm sure the Outlaw stereo receiver would work out very well. It would probably sound better, due to less stuff jammed into one box. I haven't heard it, but everything I've heard about it has been very positive. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8651 Registered: Dec-04 | Stu, Henry, add 30% to the US price. |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 177 Registered: Feb-07 | Nuck do you know if the Outlaw 2150 is 4ohm stable? Just wondering how this would sound with a pair of era's d5's or the Dyna dm 2/8? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8696 Registered: Dec-04 | Chico, it is rated 100w @8ohms, 150w @4ohms, so they seem to think so at Outlaw. |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 178 Registered: Feb-07 | thanks again nuck |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2110 Registered: May-05 | Hank, If you're still interested, the Arcam A65+ is still available from Arcam themselves (or their distributer?). I found it through Arcam's webpage - http://www.audiophilesales.com/prod/main.asp?cat=62&brand=9&n=0&np=5 $519. I believe that's in US dollars. Still, not a bad deal at all. New in box with warantee. |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 181 Registered: Feb-07 | Now that really tempting i saw the A80 for 849. I'm seriously considering that. Oh quick question do you guys know of ATI amps? Is the 1202 any good? |
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Bronze Member Username: PabloPost Number: 77 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Hank have a look at Thread: "NAD C272 or T763 for Arro's?" I had similar problems Arro, NAD 743 and sqeezebox. I did lots of little modifications and it was not good. Finally I changed NAD for Arcam AVR280. I LOVE IT!!! The sound from Arros is incredible!. Sharp detail oriented and surprise - lots of base. And I am not using any sub! Totem tress speaker wire - biwire Arros so they are getting plenty of power. Squeezebox is connected via coax so Arcam's DACs are in use. Everything ripped in wave format so no lose. I am very happy from this setup. It was worth every dollar |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2374 Registered: Sep-04 | Hey Pablo, Nice to see you're still happy with your set! It's still relatively unusual for stereo amplifiers to have digital inputs. This remains the purview of surround amps so far. My understanding of the Squeezebox is that it has a pretty good streaming capability. Provided the DAC is good, the solution should work reasonably well, although jitter remains a factor with these solutions. That said, my understanding is that the Squeezebox's built-in DAC is no great shakes and it is usually better to use it as a digital source... Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: PabloPost Number: 78 Registered: Mar-06 | hi Frank This is my understanding as well. I am already compromising the source by using a squeezebox versus good quality cd player. But I would never change. I love squeezebox and 750 cds ripped in wave on my PC, plus radio. So compromising even more by using squeezebox DAC versus Aram or other good AVR's DAC could make bigger diffrence. I compare couple of songs from my setup vs decent cd player connected to AVR280 and in my opinion there was no diffrence. Frank check Panasonic A/V SAXR57 DefTech ProCinema 60 thread. Help please Pablo |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 1000 Registered: Apr-06 | "Provided the DAC is good, the solution should work reasonably well, although jitter remains a factor with these solutions." Interestingly, it might not be all that bad. I personally use an Apple Airport Express instead of a Squeezebox; using its digital output connected to a Musical Fidelity X-DAC, Stereophile measured 258 picoseconds of jitter from the combo. The Primare CD31 CD Player ( that they recently reviewed measured in at 239ps and the Naim CD555 measured 245ps for reference. For $129 for the Airport Express and $999 for the outboard DAC, I'd say that is pretty darned good jitter performance. Of course if you use the Airports analog output, it goes up to 2400ps, but you can't get the world for that price. |
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Bronze Member Username: Hank_hillPost Number: 19 Registered: May-06 | Pablo, I agree, the Squeezebox is an excellent unit...I'd just like to up the sound quality a bit without breaking the bank. While the Arcam AVR280 sounds like a nice option, at roughly $2000 (Somehow, I don't think I'd get the same great deal you did ) it's certainly out of the price range that I'm considering. If I was going to spend that amount of money I think I'd have to seriously consider other options in that price range such as a used Nait 5i + external DAC...but that's not in the cards. I've done a bit of playing around with my system and while I initially preferred the digital connection over analog, I find the sound much closer if a decent set of interconnects is used (I tried some Unity Solid ICs). I still need to experiment a bit more...one thing I'd like to try is hooking my Outlaw 1070 to the Squeezebox and Arros both with the digital and analog connection. My reasoning is that if the sound with the analog connection is decent then it should be even better with the Outlaw RR2150 which is now $500 for the B-stock model...very tempting especially with the high Canadian dollar! Hank |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8809 Registered: Dec-04 | $500 plus shipping, duties and 14% tax on top of the duties. 720$ by then. Still not too shabby. |
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Bronze Member Username: Hank_hillPost Number: 20 Registered: May-06 |
Stu, thanks for the suggestion. However, they don't ship to Canada. I've discovered a few things so far: 1. I still prefer digital over analog with the L53, however I think the L53 is converting the analog back to digital and then processing it through it's DAC. I don't think there's an analog bypass mode. 2. With the Outlaw 1070 it's a lot closer, I think I actually prefer the analog input in this case. The 1070 has a pretty decent analog path. 3. The Squeezebox volume control should be set to 100 so that it doesn't do any digital processing (to reduce the volume). 4. Quality interconnects make a big difference. Nothing exotic just some in the $40-50 range. 5. The list of integrated amps/receivers I'm thinking about moving to include: Outlaw RR2150 ($650 new or $500 B-stock) NAD C372 ($800) Creek Evo ($1000) Arcam A70 ($1000) Naim Nait 5i ($1700 or $1000 used) 6. Totem told me that the Arros are 6 ohm for 94% of the frequencey range and only dip to 4 ohm for a short portion of the range. So...it should be safe to use them with the L53 within reason. 7. Sadly, the L53 does *not* have a great resale value, I'm now considering just keeping it and upgrading when I eventually move the L53 into a different room. Maybe by then there'll be more stereo receivers or integrated amps with a digital input to choose from (a few already have USB digitial inputs such as the RR2150 and Pioneer Elite SX-A9-J). Hank |
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Silver Member Username: ChicomoralessxmDutch islesCaribbean Post Number: 182 Registered: Feb-07 | Nice accounting skills nuck |
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Gold Member Username: BasssquaredKansas Post Number: 1326 Registered: Nov-06 | Pablo y Chio apoco hay latinos en ecoustics? |
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