|
Anonymous | I went into a high end shop and they started throwing all these terms at me and I didn't know how to accurately tell them what I was looking for in a speaker. Can anyone tell me the definitions of "warm" and bright". These are terms frequently used for describing a speaker or a receiver. Also for subs, "tight bass", "accurate bass" and "muddy bass". Thanks! |
|
Bronze Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 77 Registered: Dec-03 | These are ambiguous terms that these folks like to use. It comes down to perception. Contrary to what many believe, a speaker with perfectly flat response doesn't sound good. Our hearing is more sensitive at some frequencies than others (Google "Fletcher-Munson Curve"). A warm speaker will have less SPL at the sensitive frequencies than a bright speaker. For subs, tight bass will have quick start and stop, accurate will not have any boost applied as many do. These will usually be sealed boxes. Muddy bass will be the boomy kind that's found in most home theater applications and be in a vented box. Of course, these are generalizations. |
|
Anonymous | Thank you Timn8ter. |
|
eb0y Unregistered guest | Wait, that doesn't make sense. If my ears have certain frequency response, I'll hear any sound - no matter if it is from live performance or from speakers - through that response anyway. So if speaker is perfectly flat, I should hear exact live performance. Well, at least as accurate as what is recorded. So if perfectly flat response doesn't sound good, that means either the recording is bad or the original performance doesn't sound good! |
|
Bronze Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 78 Registered: Dec-03 | So, your saying the microphone is calibrated the same as your hearing? |
|
New member Username: Eb0yPost Number: 2 Registered: May-04 | No, mic should be flat. What I'm saying is that if everything is flat - from mic to cd to speaker - I should hear same sound as live. |
|
Bronze Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 79 Registered: Dec-03 | When I said it "doesn't sound good" I was speaking of the listener's interpretation. Even if the listener heard a performance live and it was recorded and reproduced in their home with the highest level of accuracy there's a good chance they wouldn't like the sound. Like I said, it comes down to perception. The number of people that can appreciate accuracy in reproduction are very few compared to those that want exaggeration at some point. I'm not trying to fault anyone for wanting that either. This is about entertainment and if that's what you like then more power to you. |
|
New member Username: Eb0yPortland, OR US Post Number: 3 Registered: May-04 | I totally agree with your point. I used to put my bookshelf speakers on floor since I had no money after spending so much on my system. Then I have found out that I can put garden blocks from Home Depot - about 14inch tall, heavy and $2 - under the speakers to make them less boomy. Then I found myself missing the boomy sound! And then after a while, I tried them on the floor again. Now, that boomy sound was just too much. You don't know what you want to hear until you hear it. |
|
Bronze Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 80 Registered: Dec-03 | Also, one of the biggest problems when shopping for speakers is determining how they will sound in the room you're placing them in. Listening in the nicely treated room at the store where they sound wonderful just to bring them home and suffer from reflections and unexpected room gain or room nulls in the bass has caused a great deal of buyer's remorse. Take them home and try them out if you can! |
|
Anonymous | what the hell does "A warm speaker will have less SPL at the sensitive frequencies than a bright speaker" mean? you're just describing a term with something even more technical. can someone please clarify what he's talking about? |
|
Bronze Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 81 Registered: Dec-03 | You have a strange way of asking for help. Did you look at the Fletcher-Munson curve? Did you read any of the explanations that accompanied the graphs? If SPL is too technical for you look it up. |
|
New member Username: Eb0yPortland, OR US Post Number: 4 Registered: May-04 | I'm no audiophile so I don't have a clue what warm/cold sound means. But I know a thing or two about reading 'curves'. Here's my translation of Tim's explanation. First, SPL is 'Sound Pressure Level', which is loudness of sound. 'Frequency' is same as pitch. High frequency sound = high pitched sound. Like your wife's scream when she find out that you bought an old pair of speakers from ebay. Second, from Fletcher-Munson curve, human ear is more sensitive to 1~6kHz sound. That is kind of close to the frequency of human voice. I guess it makes sense to hear human voice better then other stuff. Well, sometimes not. Like the wife's scream. So, what Tim said is that 'A warm speaker is less loud at the pitches close to human voice (which you can hear better already) than a bright speaker'. I guess that means if I listen to music with a bright speaker I should hear mid-range sound louder then with warm speaker. Am I correct? |
|
Bronze Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 82 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes, that's a good interpretation. This is also going to include higher range instruments such as harp, xylophone, flute, clarinet, violin and piano. Sometimes the listener will interpret "brightness" as being more "detailed". |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | The first thing to do is stop any salesperson who is not speaking a language you understand. Explain that you are unfamiliar with the terminology of audio and ask for a common language explanation. If the salesperson can't or won't do this to your satisfaction, you probably should look elsewhere for your components. The only exception to this: you must be aware of the salesperson's time and their goal. Their goal is to feed themselves and possibly their family. To expect a salesperson to spend large amounts of time with you when the store is busy is rude. Go when the store is quiet, you will be able to hear demonstrations of the different sounds, or make an appointment if you see the store is busy. A good salesperson enjoys talking about their product and should be willing to work with you even if your purchase may be months away. If you feel the salesperson is brushing you off you can expect the same service after you have given them your money. Otherwise, you can learn like most everyone else did. One foot in front of the other. Read audio publications and you will pick up the terminology. Accept that you may occassionally make errors and if presented by solid fact don't stubbornly insist you are right. Don't assume too much until you start to hear what you are reading. Before you know it you'll be p*ss*ng with the big dogs! |
|
Anonymous | eb0y thanks for the explanation. that helped me a lot and probably many others too. Vigne your comment seems like common sense, but for a person like me i would have never figured this out on my own so thanks for the detailed examples. many times the reason why people are rude is because they are not aware they are acting rude, not always because they are arrogant and condecending. so which specific publications can you recommend and can i get them at, say, Barnes & Nobles or is there a website to order them from? |
|
Bronze Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 83 Registered: Dec-03 | There's so much information on the web it's really not necessary to buy any publication on the subject. Do a search for "how loudspeakers work" and you'll find lots of information. After that read "Hertz 101" from this site http://members.aol.com/pjay99site/speakerhome.html |
|
Bronze Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 84 Registered: Dec-03 | This one is good too. http://www.tnt-audio.com/topics/frequency_e.html |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 341 Registered: Dec-03 | good stuff guys. someone who can explain things clearly and in plain english should do a post listing all the usual terms of speakers "phase eq timbre cool bright boomy boxy image ect" if someone was willing to do that we could keep refering people back to that link. personally i think that would be great.i'm pretty shure that many people could do a better job than myself but i would be willing to help on the post. any takers? maybe make a new post and call it "audio terms" or something along that path. |
|
Anonymous | Timn8ter thanks for the links & hints. They will definately make some good reading. I appreciate you taking the time to help people. I notice you post a lot of helpful info, so don't think you're efforts go un-noticed. Timn8ter sorry for lashing out at you, I do get frustrated easily because I am not used to asking people for help. KEGGER so it would be like an "audio dictionary for dummies"? that would be very helpful to myself and i would think that would help a lot of other people too. you could just refer people to a link and not have to keep having to re-explain things over and over. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | J. Gordon Holt did this exact thing in "stereophile" many years ago and it was republish about ten years ago. It was a wonderful source of information. I'll see if I can find it to give a reference. Otherwise, Kegger's idea is good but I wonder hoe many people might disagree with a particular definition. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 345 Registered: Dec-03 | jan i thought of that too, but then it might just add to how someone can understand that wording. or if they are completely different then maybe a discussion will happen to try to sort it out. "maybe" |
|
Bronze Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 85 Registered: Dec-03 | This is why many begin to dismiss these types of subjective descriptions and start asking for more empirical evidence of speaker performance, namely, frequency reponse graphs. However, you open another can of worms because how the measurement was taken becomes critical. Was it taken in a room or in an anoechoic chamber? How close was the microphone? Was there weighting or smoothing used? What was the frequency source? Plus, does a graph describe "tonality"? I doubt it. I'm sorry to say that I'm not aware of any "one-stop-shopping" type answer to how to describe a speaker's sound. It really takes time to learn and compare. What helps is having a reference point. Either compare it to a live performance which means attending live performances or find the best speaker you can and listen to it, listen to others, then go back to your reference speaker. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 349 Registered: Dec-03 | timn8ter. i agree what i suggest would be very subjective but i think it might be a good place to start for the people who don't know any of it. and if we could get some discussions on it maybe could find some of the terms that paople interpret different than others. which might give us some insight of why some people describe a speaker different than others. i'm sure their are a few of the terms i interpret incorrectly/different. so i would think a lot of people will find it more helpful than a hinderence. yes most of us know their is more to "how does a speaker sound" than a quick 2 word answer but if we could at least start to agree on what some of these terms mean you would get a better general understanding of what someones means when they use one. |
|
Unregistered guest | Interesting how people place non musical terms like "cool, warm, boxy, bright, etc etc on audio equipment. When you go to a concert, do you notice how "cool, warm, boxy or bright" the sound is? I don't. I just enjoy. Perhaps the main term for equipment performance should be "musical enjoyment" |
|
New member Username: CorneliusPost Number: 3 Registered: Jun-04 | Good point, Maui, I think many listeners get caught up in the sound of the system instead of the music - which should be an emotional connection, not intellectual. Even the inexperienced can trust their instincts, if your attention wanders or something sound unnatural, then move on. n |
|
Anonymous | I see what you guys are saying, but why is it a bad thing to seek out better things? In psychology there is a story of people who sat inside a cave all their lives and watched the shadows dance on the wall from a flickering fire. one day one of them stepped outside and saw the sunlight and realized that the world is very different. he tried to persuade all of the other people to come out, but they wouldn't because for the entire part of their lives all they knew was watching shadows dance inside a cave beside a fire. my point is I don't want to be some dumbass stuck in a cave watching shadows if there is something out their better for me. I do understand what you mean about the music being important over the system. this must be why people thought the phonograph sounded so great. but really do you want us to start using phonographs and forget about the way the system sounds? i'm betting somebody is gong to point our what happened to adam & eve & the apple...well if that apple could reproduce sound as good as my speakers i would be tempted too |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 429 Registered: Dec-03 | quote "Interesting how people place non musical terms like "cool, warm, boxy, bright, etc etc on audio equipment. When you go to a concert, do you notice how "cool, warm, boxy or bright" the sound is? I don't. I just enjoy. " yes but people DO use these terms on audio equipment because they DO sound different. so why not explain to someone who doesn't know, what the terms mean or how most people interpret them. i'm not saying equipment should or shouldn't sound different but they DO so why not help people get the sound they are looking for. weather it be laid back or spot on natural/neutrel! |
|
New member Username: SymformPost Number: 10 Registered: May-04 | Anon - " but really do you want us to start using phonographs and forget about the way the system sounds?" Interesting statement. A lot more information can be placed on vinyl then on CD or even SACD. This is the main reason why purists still prefer the sound of vinyl and turntables. |
|
Bronze Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 89 Registered: Dec-03 | Right on. The marketing success of digital audio still reigns supreme in spite of the facts. http://www.vacuumstate.com/VARIOUS/SACD_2003.pdf |