Denon AVR-3805 vs NAD T763
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New member Username: NeedleyePost Number: 1 Registered: May-04 | Hello everry one I am a newbie to this and I am trying to decide between the Denon AVR-3805 and NAD T763. I understand the Denon is probably easier to setup. I plan to match one of these to the Axiom Epic 60 speakers. TY in advance |
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Silver Member Username: LandrovalPost Number: 160 Registered: Feb-04 | The Denon has more fancy gadgets, while the NAD has more power and sounds better. Try to go compare them yourself if you can. |
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Anonymous | Actually the Denon has 120watts X 6 while the NAD is only at 100watts X 6. |
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Silver Member Username: LandrovalPost Number: 165 Registered: Feb-04 | Riiight. That's what they try to tell us. The AVR-3805 uses the same power supply (supposedly) than the AVR-3803 wich gives 5*50W to 8ohms and 5*25W to 4 ohms continuous power (AVR-2803 5*30W 8ohms, 5*15W 4 ohms), so I very greatly doubt that the 3805 would do any better. Also at AVS-forums, the Mecca of 3805, people are wanting to buy a separate power amp to go with their new Denon, just to get more power in a 7.1 setup. The NAD will easily deliver what it promises. It will also give out more power the lower the impedance is, at wich the Denon has to limit it's current so it wont burn it self and break down. |
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Anonymous | Landroval, So then you're saying that Denon is at risk of a very serious lawsuit for mis-leading the consumer? I doubt it. Landroval, you're a very inportant source for this forum. Try not to taint your reputation man. Show me the source that states it's using the same power supply as the 3803 and I'll be the first to apologize for not believing you. |
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Silver Member Username: LandrovalPost Number: 167 Registered: Feb-04 | "So then you're saying that Denon is at risk of a very serious lawsuit for mis-leading the consumer? I doubt it." But isn't that the case for the older Denon models, and many others like Yamaha and Sony DE-series etc.? About the power supply I'm not sure, it's just something I read from AVS-forums: "... I have a similar sized room, and the 3805(same power supply as 3803 I think) was inadequate for 5.1, and you are trying to drive two additional speakers. I think your suggestion of using an outboard amp for L/C/R is great, and you might even want to consider a 5 or 7 channel amp. The fewer channels you try to drive with the 3805 the better. I may be wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am, but as I recall the power supply in the 3600 is larger than that in the 3803/3805. Couple that with fewer channels to drive, and I'm not surprised you're hearing a drop in sound quality." http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=a5bcd2bfa80404d6d769084d77a7fda5 &threadid=356882&goto=nextoldest But yes, it's not a fact, just a rumour. We'll have to see some measurements before making more conclusions. |
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Silver Member Username: LandrovalPost Number: 169 Registered: Feb-04 | And now I'm back with some inside pictures that might help us. AVR2803: http://www.areadvd.de/images/denonavr2803inside.jpg AVR3803: http://www.areadvd.de/images/denonavr3803inside.jpg AVR3805: http://www.areadvd.de/images/denonavr3805inside.jpg AVR3805 transformer: http://www.areadvd.de/images/denonavr3805trafo.jpg AVR3805 big: http://www.audioholics.com/images/receivers/denon_AVR3805_top_lg.jpg To me the 3803 and 3805 transformers sure as hell look like exactly the same blocks. The 2803 is smaller and different wich also was expected. This is all can I do, hope it's enough. |
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Bronze Member Username: New2htPost Number: 19 Registered: May-04 | Anon' and landroval - I did some research to help you guys out... AVR-3803 Dolby Digital Surround EX, Dolby Pro Logic II & DTS ES Discrete 7.1 A/V Receiver • Dolby Digital Surround EX, Pro Logic II decoding with Cinema and Music Modes • DTS Extended Surround Discrete 6.1 decoding • DTS Extended Surround Matrix 6.1 decoding • DTS Neo:6 Cinema & Music Surround decoding • DTS ES 96/24 5.1 decoding for DVD Video • New DDSC-Digital featuring Analog Devices Melody 100 (HammerHead SHARC) 32 bit floating point DSP processor • 7 Channels equal power amplifier section • 110 watts per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, <.05%THD) • 150 watts per channel (6 ohms, 1 kHz, <.7%THD) • 16 Burr-Brown PCM-1791 24 bit, 192 kHz high resolution DACs on all eight channels, in differential configuration • Real 24 bit, 96 kHz Digital Interface Receiver • 24 bit, 192 kHz A/D conversion (Burr-Brown PCM-1804) on all analog inputs • Pure Audio mode, features 4 DACs per audio channel in dual-differential configuration • ALPHA 24 Processing (AL24) in Stereo/Direct/Pure Direct modes (left/right channels) • Adjustable High and Low Pass Crossover (40/60/80/100/120Hz) • 2 Assignable component video inputs (100MHz), with On-Screen Display • Video Conversion of Composite to S-Video and/or to Component, with on-screen display • 7 sets composite and "S" video inputs • 7.1 external wide bandwidth (100 kHz) input for future multi-channel formats (such as DVD-Audio) • 5/7 Channel Stereo • Digitally regulated volume control with .5dB increment adjustments and step range of -80 to +15 • Audio Delay adjustment to match audio signals with video signals(0-200ms) • Personal Memory Plus • 7 assignable digital inputs (5 Optical, 2 Coaxial) • 2 Optical digital outputs • 9 analog inputs including built-in AM/FM tuner • Multi-Zone 1 stereo pre-amp level audio outputs, fixed or variable level • Multi-Zone 1 Composite Video output • Power Amplifier Assign function, lets you assign 2 of the 7 amp channels to drive second zone speakers directly • LCD dot-matrix programmable/learning remote features TV, VCR, DVD codes from other manufacturers with full backlighting =============================================== AVR-3805 7.1 A/V Receiver with Dolby Digital Surround EX, Dolby Pro Logic IIx & DTS ES Discrete 6.1 • Dolby Digital Surround EX, Pro Logic IIx decoding with Cinema,Music and Game Modes • dts ES Discrete 6.1 and Matrix 6.1 decoding • dts Neo:6 Stereo to Surround decoding • dts ES 96/24 5.1 decoding for DVD Video • HDCD decoding • New DDSC-Digital featuring Analog Devices HammerHead SHARC 32 bit floating point DSP processor • New Auto-Setup and Room EQ function with optional DENON microphone DM-S305 or other manufacturers microphone • 7 Channels equal power amplifier section • 120 watts per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, <.05%THD) • 160 watts per channel (6 ohms, 1 kHz, <.7%THD) • 16 Burr-Brown PCM-1791 24 bit, 192 kHz high resolution DACs on all eight channels, in differential configuration • Real 24 bit, 192 kHz Digital Interface Receiver • 24 bit, 192 kHz A/D conversion (Burr-Brown PCM-1804) on all Stereo analog inputs (Not EXT. Inputs) • Pure Direct mode defeats Video, Front Panel Display circuitry and with Analog sources the Digital circuitry • ALPHA 24 Processing Plus (AL24+) on all channels • Adjustable High and Low Pass Crossover (40/60/80/100/120/150/200/250Hz) • 3 Assignable Component Video inputs (100MHz Bandwidth), with On-Screen Display • Video Conversion of Composite to S-Video and/or to Component, with on-screen display • 7 sets composite and "S" video inputs • 7.1 external wide bandwidth (100 kHz) inputs for multi-channel formats, such as DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD • 5/7 Channel Stereo • Digitally regulated volume control with .5dB increment adjustments and step range of -80 to +15 • Audio Delay adjustment to match audio signals with video signals(0-200ms) • Personal Memory Plus • DENON Link 3rd (Super Audio CD & DVD-Audio) compatible digital input • 7 assignable digital inputs (5 Optical, 2 Coaxial) • 2 Optical digital outputs • 11 analog inputs including built-in AM/FM tuner • True 3 Source, 3 Zone functionality with Discrete Power, Source Select and Volume control for each zone • (2)Multi-Zone stereo pre-amp level audio outputs, fixed or variable level (Zone 3 fixed only) • (1) Multi-Zone Composite Video output • Power Amplifier Assign function, lets you assign 2 of the 7 amp channels to drive Zone 2 or 3 speakers directly • Direct Access Tuner presets by remote • New EL backlighting pre-programmed/learning remote • RS-232C Port for Third Party Control Systems • Remote I/O ports • Assignable +12v triggers (2) • Detachable Power cord • Full System Setup/Parameter control on front panel, with feedback on front panel display (Monitor is not needed for setup) • Dimensions: 17.1"w x 6.7"h x 16.4"d • SRP $1199 • Click on the Tech Note icon for the Auto Setup and Room EQ feature chart in pdf format • Click on the Review icon for the Auto Setup and Room EQ specifications with non-Denon microphones Also a link ... http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry/Denon_AVR-3805_receiver.html Hope this clears it up for you guys. |
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Bronze Member Username: BuckeyeshinePost Number: 90 Registered: Feb-04 | Trust what landroval says. Most of the Japanese manufacturers have inflated power ratings that are NOT with all channels continuous like NAD rates theirs. I am certain they aren't exposed to a law suit but meeting a spec by the letter of the law which doesn't require them to state with ALL channels continuous (just a guess on my part with the legal aspect). The T763 would blow the Denon out of the water at least from a power standpoint. It was obvious in my side by side comparison between the T763 and Yamaha RX-V2400, which the Yami also on paper had 120w x 7. landroval's also right to do YOUR own side by side comparison if you can. Your ears will tell you where to go. Mine did. Good luck. |
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Silver Member Username: LandrovalPost Number: 170 Registered: Feb-04 | In addition to those pics I posted before: AVR3801: http://www.areadvd.de/images/denonavr3801innen.jpg (looks like the same as other 3xxx's) AVR1804: http://www.areadvd.de/images/denonavr1804inside4.jpg (definitely smaller transfm.) And I dont know about the 2803, it has that band around it's transformer, but it could still be the same, at least it does not look smaller as I posted before, the pic is just so bad. It also gets same power measurements from some reviews than the 3xxx-models. Although from some others it gets less (5*50W -> 5*30W continuous 8 ohms). |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 578 Registered: Dec-03 | You can compare the spec sheets of both receivers for days and it will not tell you squat. I had a Denon 3803, the imeediate predecessor to the Denon 3805, and the sound was cold, sterile, and utterly lifeless (who killed the musicians?). I replaced it with an NAD T753 which is warm, dynamic and exciting to listen to. The T763 is even better. When you listen to both, you realize the NAD actually has a soundstage that is much deeper and wider sounding than the Denon. All in all, it is much more realistic to listen to and much more engaging. It is also interesting that the NAD will bench test with much more power, because the Denon is only rated two channels at a time. So, when the power specs are given, the Denon is rated with only two channels drawing on its power supply, and the power delivery will drop sharply when using five or more channels (such as in HT usage). The NAD is rated with all chennels active at the same time, and they usually underestimate the true power (Sound & Vision, Dec. 2002, found the T752 hit 92 wpc before clipping even though it was only rated at 80 wpc--conversely, the Denon 2803, rated at 90 wpc by Denon, clipped at 61 wpc when five channels were driven). I put my money where my mouth is--I bought the NAD and the Denon has been sold. |
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Anonymous | Interesting post Mr Hawk. You are a very respectable member of this forum. However, I would still doubt NAD's reliability even after you recommending it. All the negative threads on NAD, just in this forum alone, is frightening. Who wants to buy a product with so much negative publicity? In addition, the Sound & Vision test was done over 2 years ago using the older model (3803). You're talking apples to oranges. I would love to see a more recent comparison using the actual 3805 model. Respectfully. |
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Bronze Member Username: BuckeyeshinePost Number: 91 Registered: Feb-04 | Anon, I had the same concerns too but took a chance. Both the T763 I demo tested in my home and the T773 that I now own operated flawlessly. I've had my 773 for 4 months now with no issues whatsoever. I believe some of these problems reported here are genuine but am not convinced that these posts mean NAD has epidemic problems. My personal experience and my dealer tell me otherwise. There are many success stories out there for NAD but people don't generally post evey positive experience they have. They come here for help with problems among other things. I am certainly glad now I didn't let these posts make my decision. The NAD is head and shoulders above others I shopped for. What sweet sound! And btw...since you apparently read on this forum and at least post...get yourself a name so we know who we're talking to :0) |
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New member Username: NadPost Number: 1 Registered: May-04 | JDG - You are correct in saying "They (consumers) come here for help with problems among other things". However, would you agree that you see far less negative postings regarding Denon AVRs? In this industry, word-of-mouth will adversely affect a manufacture's reputation. I truly believe this is the case for NAD. Would you buy a Theater Research/Theater innovation or Dahlton speaker after reading all the negative press about it? Please tell me "NO". And BTW, how do you like my newly registered name? It's the true acronym for NAD. |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 289 Registered: Feb-04 | NAD Very clever! But you'll also notice there's a clear majority of people in these forums who testify to the excellent performance and sound quality of NAD's products whether or not they beieve they have QC issues. Those speakers you mentioned don't warrant any comparison. |
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New member Username: NadPost Number: 2 Registered: May-04 | My Rantz - 3 words for ya....NOT TO BE! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 604 Registered: Dec-03 | Anon: NAD is meant for those of us who want the sound of quality separates, but can only afford a receiver. As I have posted before, I checked with three different NAD dealers regarding the reports on this forum and all three reported to me that they had no more problems than any other brand and in fact, fewer problems with NAD returns than a number of their brands. We have a number of different theories on why so many reports of problems with NAD show up on this forum, but I think it is largely because there are so many who have reported good things about NAD that some feel they can get their problems solved here. I also think NAD owners have higher expectations than the buyers of most other receiver brands. Regardless of the reasons, I have absolutely no trouble with my 753 and its sound embarrasses my old Denon. As for comparing apples to oranges, I am amused. That sounds like the days when I was a child and Detroit offered the new models, claiming the new Chevy Bel-Air was significantly improved over the previous year's model because of the addition of white sidewall tires and full hubcaps in place of the half-moons. Or, to quote a well known phrase, "The more things change, the more they stay the same." |
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New member Username: NadPost Number: 5 Registered: May-04 | Hawk - You're quote... "I also think NAD owners have higher expectations than the buyers of most other receiver brands" brought me to the floor laughing. Expecting a receiver to work out-of-the-box is considered a "high expectation"? I don't think so bud. |
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New member Username: Sfox7076Post Number: 9 Registered: Apr-04 | NAD, You're right, that should be the expectation. But you fail to realize that these boards don't really represent a true sample of the people that own either product out there. This board seems to attract people that own NAD, maybe not as many Denon. Because people on one board have had problems doesn't mean the product is problem ridden. Similarly, because there are relatively fewer posts on Denon problems doesn't mean there are fewer Denon problems. In full disclosure, I have an NAD t763 and love it. Have had no problems at all. I have tested a Denon 3803 and own an 1804. First off, the 1804 is in my living room and runs small speakers. When I brought it to my listening room, it gave me no problems driving my Paradigm Studio 60 v.2's in two channel mode. Make them drive the CC center and the Studio 20 v.3's with the 60's and the receiver sounded like hell and heated up. At 90x6, it shouldn't have had this problem, but it did... The 3803 was better when I brought it home for a week, but the sound wasn't there in the end. And really, the sound fields didn't help. The NAD has been perfect out of the box. So, sure NAD has had a few issues, I am sure Denon has as well. H&K has had a ton of quality problems with their CD players, but no one seems to have mentioned that on this board. Go figure... |
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New member Username: NadPost Number: 6 Registered: May-04 | Shawn, Can you direct me to a forum with many negative posts regarding Denon receivers???? By the way, we're discussing Denon's 3805 receiver not the 3803. Buy a 3805 and compare it with your NAD then post your results. |
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New member Username: Sfox7076Post Number: 10 Registered: Apr-04 | NAD, Do you have to constantly be this obnoxious? I own a Denon and was not trying to be mean, just point out the flaw in your logic. And well, I know that this goes against all you have thought and may require you to sleep in the fetal position tonight, but in the 14 seconds I spent on google, I found a forum discussing many of the great experiences and big problems found with some peoples use of the Denon 5803. http://p081.ezboard.com/faussiedvdandhtforumfrm37 Shockingly, some Denon's don't work perfectly out of the box and had other problems develop later on. But those are all for the 5803, so you are right that it isn't the 3805. Sorry, but many complaints on the 3805 aren't posted yet. But in your eyes that wouldn't be because it is so newer than the NAD which has received negative comments, it would be because Denon only manufactures products that are perfect... As for my purchase of the Denon, well, when can I expect you to chip in? |
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Silver Member Username: LandrovalPost Number: 183 Registered: Feb-04 | Well NAD, my post on May 20 does have a negative quote on 3805. Also you havent yet agreed about the power transformer matter. |
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Bronze Member Username: KendridPost Number: 40 Registered: Apr-04 | "I also think NAD owners have higher expectations than the buyers of most other receiver brands" That quote is funny. So someone buying a $1200 Rotel, Pioneer or Denon receiver doesn't have high expectations? Plus having a unit *work* isn't that high of an expectation. First off I will say that *all* products have failures, that is a fact of electronics. But, my NAD failure rate is 3 for 3 over the course of two years. In that same timeframe I've had Rotel, Pioneer Elite, Denon, and Sony ES in my home for long demos. None of they had major failures (some minor annoyances). So for 9 receivers in my home I had 3 failures and all were NAD, and the failures all happened within a month of ownership (same time frame of ownership as the other brands). That is pretty big coincidence if NAD doesn't have some QC issues. Goto avsforum, HTF, The Spot...you won't see that many people complaining about Denon, Yamaha, Rotel, and those boards have thousands of owners that would complain at the drop of a hat if they had issues. They do complain about Marantz and the new Sony digital receivers because those companies have problems across the board with some of their models and the users won't put up with it. I put NAD in the same boat. How can I not? There track record with me is pretty lousy. Sure they have good support and I have a good dealer, but I don't want to have to use them so often. "I checked with three different NAD dealers regarding the reports on this forum and all three reported to me that they had no more problems than any other brand and in fact" What do you expect an NAD dealer to say??? If he wants to move units he isn't going to say that they have issues. Guess what my Rotel dealer told me about NAD when I asked him for his opinion? He said they sound terrible (which of course they don't). He is a Rotel dealer and he does not sell NAD so of course he said that. I'd expect most NAD dealers to do the same to Rotel. All I can say to a potential buyer is buyer beware. NAD equipment sounds great, especially for the price. The next best/equal thing is the Rotel RSX1056 at $1200, so a 753 at $500 less is a steal. But you MUST buy from an authorized dealer. Do NOT buy from some no-name online dealer that cannot prove that they are authorized. There are a couple of good online dealers if you need to go that route (Yawa and DMC). If you own NAD and have no issues I am happy for you. Actually I am envious of you. |
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New member Username: NadPost Number: 7 Registered: May-04 | Shawn - Man, is that smoke coming out of your ears? I think you're taking this a little to personal. On the other hand, it must be frustrating knowing that it's just a matter of time before your NAD is going to break down. Just don't take it out on me man. Do the right thing...dump your NAD. Trust me, you'll be able to sleep better at night. For your info, I slept like a log (in a fetal position) on my comfortable couch with my Denon on all night. It's an awesome feeling knowing I have purchased such a great and reliable product. Kevin - Outstanding comment. |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 55 Registered: Dec-03 | Kevin, nice post and exactly what I have been saying all along. |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 56 Registered: Dec-03 | For some great smack downs, see this discussion in the AVS forum labeled NAD v. Denon: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=401959&highlight=denon +avr3805 |
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Bronze Member Username: Sfox7076Post Number: 11 Registered: Apr-04 | As a person that owns NAD, I must say that I expect what I buy to work, and will make sure it does. But I am not going to accept a lesser product, in my opinion, than what I can get because there could be an issue. While I am not conceding that there are more issues with NAD receivers, even if there were, I would still buy the NAD over the Denon because I like the sound of the NAD more than Denon. If it has problems, odds are they will show up within the warranty period and I will get it fixed. If they don't, it will be repaired because in the end, the sound quality is what matters to me. If it turns out to be a big issue, Hawk and I can start the class action suit... If you like Denon's sound better, go for it and be happy. I just wouldn't want to linger, wondering if I sacrificed my enjoyment for being safe. Even though I still don't think NAD has all that many issues. At least in my case. I will not be the guy who buys the Toyota Camry because it won't break down, when I really wanted a VW Passat, or the guy with the crank windows because sometimes power windows fail. It is just a different philosophic approach. I respect yours, but I am willing to take this "risk" for my added enjoyment, even though I think it really isn't a risk. |
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New member Username: JblizPost Number: 1 Registered: Mar-04 | Quite a heated thread we have going here. Well, I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents. I don't want to get into which receiver sounds better, since that is completely subjective. However, I can say that I demoed the NAD T763 and it sounded great to me, and I demoed the Denon 3805 and it sounded great ot me too. Anyway, onto the objective stuff. NAD definitely has better amps, I don't think anyone will argure otherwise. However, I can't find anything else that NAD has over the Denon 3805. The Denon has better DAC's, OPA's, DSP's, etc. In other words, the Denon is a more accurate processor. Denon also has the upperhand in features. It's got autocalibration, upconversion, 3 component inputs (with 100Khz bandwidth for god's sake), Denon Link (which I'm not a real fan of because it is proprietary), etc. Lastly, I have to say that from my research, Denon definitely seems to have better reliability. John |
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Silver Member Username: LandrovalPost Number: 187 Registered: Feb-04 | I mostly agree with John Bland. The Denon is a great and versatile product with almost all the features one might really need. But, also the single most important thing in a receiver is the quality of the amps. They definitely have the biggest impact on the sound quality of the system, and they also tend to be te weakest components of most AV-receivers. The 3805 would be a great pre-amp even at the price it retails, and paired with power amps like Outlaw 770 or NAD T973 it will make a great system, but it tends to go a bit on the expensive side. As entirety the T763 is a better product, but it of course has it's own flaws. |
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New member Username: JblizPost Number: 2 Registered: Mar-04 | Landroval, If I move out of my townhouse, and have a larger home theater room, then I would absolutely consider picking up a NAD amp for some additional clean power. NAD makes great amps. You stated.... "But, also the single most important thing in a receiver is the quality of the amps. They definitely have the biggest impact on the sound quality of the system, and they also tend to be the weakest components of most AV-receivers." I disagree with alot of this statement. I'm not sure what drove you to this conclusion. Now I'm not an expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong, cuz that's the only way i'll learn more. Anyway, my understanding is that a good amp section will allow you to handle a greater load. It will allow you to drive speakers with lower impedances, and drive speakers to higher volumes without distorting or burning your receiver up. Some argure that amps don't have an effect on sound. Now I disagree with that, but I think they have a very small affect on sound. I would argue that the DSP, DAC's and OPA's have vastly greater impact in sound quality or rather sound accuracy. "Quality" is too subjective. It is unfortunate that NAD still uses a very outdated DSP(CS493263) with 24-bit processing. This DSP does result in measurable distortion and inaccuracies when compared to a 48-bit fixed or 32-bit floating point DSP. I guess a persons setup will determine which product is right for them. If you have 4 ohm speakers and don't have the money for separates, then NAD and HK are the best values in town. But I'm going with 8 ohm speakers in 7.1 setup and I live in a townhouse. The Denon provides an amp section that is sufficient to drive the speakers to levels that will probably get me kicked out of my townhouse development. An additional situation where the NAD would really shine is if you have 2 full range fronts and listen to alot of 2 channel music. In that case, you would bypass the DSP's, making it a none issue. However, I can't afford a pair of speakers with a freqency range of 20Hz to 20Khz, so again, the NAD just ain't for me. I try to get some links for you regarding distortions caused by DSP, DAC's and OPA's. If you could track some info for me regarding the AMP's effects on sound accuracy. That would be great as well. John |
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Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 119 Registered: Apr-04 | Shawn wrote: "If you like Denon's sound better, go for it and be happy. I just wouldn't want to linger, wondering if I sacrificed my enjoyment for being safe. ..... I will not be the guy who buys the Toyota Camry because it won't break down, when I really wanted a VW Passat..... I respect yours, but I am willing to take this "risk" for my added enjoyment, even though I think it really isn't a risk." Shawn, I agree with you on all points...that's why I have a T763 - flawless!! - and a VW Passat (wagon). There's a promise in these products that is greater than the "risk" (perceived) and I haven't been disappointed in either. You were also spot on in your observation of the "obnoxiousness" of the N.A.D. poster. Not everyone will or even has to like NAD - and negative experiences (as well as positive) should be shared - but, there's no reason to be an a*hole about it. |
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New member Username: NadPost Number: 8 Registered: May-04 | Ghia, It seems like all the NAD owners (including yourself) like to constantly support and cheer each other up by saying their NAD is operating "flawless". It must be the depression from buyer's remorse, huh Ghia? It's like a support group like the Alcoholic's Anonymous Program. "Hi, my name is Ghia and I own a NAD..." whimper...whimper...whimper... |
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Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 320 Registered: Feb-04 | I thought this guy was clever with his acronym but he obviously copied it from his medical certificate. What happened N.A.D. did they let you out or did you escape? |
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New member Username: NadPost Number: 9 Registered: May-04 | Myrantz, - I was let out of the Looney Toon Factory. You know, the same graduate school NAD hires all of their QC inspectors from. BTW, you are participating so consider yourself part of the Asylum. I really didn't expect this from a Silver Member with 320 posts. |
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Silver Member Username: LandrovalPost Number: 188 Registered: Feb-04 | Anyway, my understanding is that a good amp section will allow you to handle a greater load. It will allow you to drive speakers with lower impedances, and drive speakers to higher volumes without distorting or burning your receiver up. Some argure that amps don't have an effect on sound. Now I disagree with that, but I think they have a very small affect on sound. It is true that a good amp section allows greater power and the ability to give more current to hungry low impedance speakers. But it also determines most of the sound qualities, like details, dynamics, tone etc. The most important part of a system is always the speakers. They have the most impact on the sound quality. The second is the power amps, they will have to work well with the speakers, so the tone will be in balance. The next is the source and the pre-amp section. They have their influences, but they're harder to notice if you're not a real enthusiast. The last and the least are the cables, there's no point investing a fortune in those if your other system isn't ultra high quality. This has also been tested. There was little difference between the pre-sections of a 2k$ integrated Arcam stereo amp and many ordinary $500$ AV-receivers (with the Arcams power amp section). But when using the AVRs power-amps the sound became at least five steps worse, no details, no airyness, nothing (this was tried in stereo only). The same can be tried with low quality AVRs with pre-outs. Take a Yamaha V640 and listen to it. It really isn't the relevation to your ear. But go plug in between a small Rotel power amp and give it another try. It easily tops most 1k$+ AVRs in stereo. Of course in multichannel decoding the pre/processor section has a bigger influence. And guys, if you're disputing with an idiot, make sure he doesn't do the same. |
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Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 120 Registered: Apr-04 | "It must be the depression from buyer's remorse, huh Ghia?" No, pure joy from the pure, clean beautiful music filling my life. If you can find a way to reduce some of the energy you expend on negativity, you may experience a similar sensation. Peace. |
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New member Username: JblizPost Number: 3 Registered: Mar-04 | landroval, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree with respect to amps effect on sound accuracy. I do agree that speakers have the largest effect and speaker wire has the smallest effect on sound acuracy. Please consider though that the 32-bit floating point processing of the Denon 3805 or the 48-bit fixed point processing of a Pioneer Elite receiver is twice as accurate as the 24-bit processing in NAD receivers. If you AB'ed them using the same amp, you would definitely here the difference. However, if you were using a Denon 3805 as a processor and switching amps for an AB comparision. I'm not I could here a difference. I will have to give this a try for myself. This is of course assuming that we are driving 8ohm speakers with pretty good sensitivity. John |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 78 Registered: Apr-04 | Well I can only say that Landroval is absolutely correct in his statements regarding the power output of Denon vs NAD receivers. I have seen numerous tests that show Denon receivers to perform considerably lower than their rated power output. On the other hand I've seen many tests that show NAD receivers to perform considerably better than their rated poweroutput. See this test: http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=1879 The T760 is spec'ed at 2x70W 8ohm in stereo mode and 5x60W in surround. It was tested to provide 2x105W 8 ohm and 5x85W with all channels driven! Now take a look at the reviews of various Denon receivers here: http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/index.html For example the 3803 is rated at 7 x 110W in 8 ohm. It was tested in 5 channel mode to provide 5 x 50W in 8 ohm, 1 kHz and 0.6% THD! It gets even more shocking in 4 ohm: 5 x 25W at 1 kHz with 3.7% THD !! This is just appallingly poor performance for a receiver this expensive. As for reliability, I've owned both Denon and NAD gear, and the ones I've had the most problems with were Denon units. I'm not a Denon hater though, and I've recently bought a Denon DVD-2900 (you can follow my problems with it right here on ecoustics). Denon does make some great electronics, with good DACs and DSPs, but practically all their receivers have crappy amps, and the amps are the most important thing in a receiver. I'm using the best of both worlds (when I finally get my replacement Denon back): The DSP and DACs in a Denon DVD-2900 with the amps in my NAD T760 receiver, by using the 5.1 pre-ins. N. Abnormal, you're a typical mindless troll. Why don't you go spread your manure somewhere else? |
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Bronze Member Username: SmittyCanada Post Number: 86 Registered: Dec-03 | I'll just chime in here and state that with some limited testing I performed, I have to agree with landroval in the significance of amps vs. pre/pro section on stereo music. Source: Sony 5-disk CD/DVD player model DVP-C670D with both digital(opt. & coax) and analog outputs. Speakers: AR 310HO (8 ohm, 95 dB sensitivity) Setup A: H/K AVR30 receiver(rated 60wpc) using stereo direct mode with analog inputs(i.e. no DSP). Setup B: NAD T742 receiver(rated 60wpc) using L&R inputs of 5.1 direct inputs (bypasses ADC/DAC/BM/etc.) Setup C: NAD T742 receiver using coax. digital input with front speakers set to 'large' & sub 'off'. To summarize there was a significant difference between A and B, but no noticiable difference between B and C. From what I understand, the only difference b/w Setup A & B should be the use of the amps from the H/K compared to the NAD amps. Both receivers had enough power to play the speakers at loud listening levels without any distortion. However, the sound was very different between the two at all listening levels. Specifically: the bass was 'ample' with the NAD and very thin with the H/K; vocals and instrument positioning was more precise with the NAD. I then compared Setup B to Setup C and was suprised that there was very little difference that I could hear between these two setups. I perceived the digital connection being a bit better in some subtle areas but I don't know if I could tell the difference in a blind test. I'm sure the DACs of the NAD are technically superior to the Sony DVD player, but maybe it's not that significant at least with CDs. |
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Silver Member Username: LandrovalPost Number: 189 Registered: Feb-04 | "Please consider though that the 32-bit floating point processing of the Denon 3805 or the 48-bit fixed point processing of a Pioneer Elite receiver is twice as accurate as the 24-bit processing in NAD receivers. If you AB'ed them using the same amp, you would definitely here the difference." I'm no expert on the internal processing of hifi gear, but yes, you have a point there. But also I think there are different quality DACs, DSPs and other chips, so more bits or flops might not always be a guarantee of a better product. For the benefit of Denon I must say that they usually have the straightes frequency responses and all other measurements except power are almost flawless. |
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New member Username: JblizPost Number: 4 Registered: Mar-04 | Alot of good points there landroval, Adam and Smitty. Adam, I'm in complete agreement with you on the quality of NAD's amps. The Denon just does not compare. I've seen that bench test of the denon 3803, and guess what, if you pop open a 3803 and a 3805, you will see the exact same amp, same model number and all. They didn't upgrade it at all. However, note that they claim 120W X 7 on the 3805, while 110W X 7 on the 3803. Now that's some shady math. It truly is aggrivating that so many manufacturers exaggerate their power ratings. I practically have to wait for a magazine to benchtest a receiver before I buy one. But I regress. That said, your speakers and room size determine the size of the amp you will need. And Denon's amp is sufficient to drive a 7.1 setup of 8ohm speakers in all but the largest of HT rooms. The 4ohm part of that benchtest is not fair, and the results are what one would expect for a receiver not made to handle that load. Your problem with Denon reliability proves once again that no matter how great the company, things will always go wrong. However, I don't know of a company with the amount of bad press on the message boards as NAD. Perhaps its all a conspiracy, but I just don't want to take that chance. Smitty, Indeed, NAD performs extremely well in applications as you describe. Especially 2-channel applications with full range speakers and bypassing the digital domain. Landroval, Agreed, the quality of the chips make a difference. Denon uses quality DSP's and DAC's. Hammerhead SHARC's and what not. The funny thing is that the amps are the expensive part. Even the top the line DSP's and DAC's are cheap. My theory is that NAD doesn't want to do too many processor upgrades until they get their QC issues all ironed out. That's more of a guess than a theory actually. NAD is also very secretive about the DACs they use. Very hard info to find without opening up a receiver. I still contend that as long as you play within you amps capabilities then the processing portion of the receiver has the greater impact on sound accuracy. Great thread, John |
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New member Username: JblizPost Number: 5 Registered: Mar-04 | Did I just say "but I regress"? What? |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 79 Registered: Apr-04 | John, 4 ohm performance is important for a lot of people, because a lot of very good speakers are 4 ohm. All my speakers are 4 ohm. A powerful amp isn't just necessary to play loud, it's also essential for the all important dynamic ability of a receiver, and to keep the speaker units in a firm grip. As for DACs and DSPs, I don't think they are that bad in NADs. I believe I've read that the T7x3 receivers use the Crystal CS49400 DSP. That's the same DSP that the Rotel flagship Pre-pro RSP-1098 has. BTW, you can edit your most recent posts John. It's just well hidden under "edit profile"  |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 207 Registered: Feb-04 | Shawn and Ghia, Passat wagons rock! |
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New member Username: JblizPost Number: 6 Registered: Mar-04 | "John, 4 ohm performance is important for a lot of people, because a lot of very good speakers are 4 ohm. All my speakers are 4 ohm. A powerful amp isn't just necessary to play loud, it's also essential for the all important dynamic ability of a receiver, and to keep the speaker units in a firm grip." I agree completely. Anyone with 4ohm speakers needs a heathly amp like a NAD to drive them sufficiently. The point I'm trying to make is that an amp does not have an effect on how accurately an audio source is presented. Yes, you will get distortions from an amp if you match it with speakers that it is incapable for driving, i.e. Denon with a 4ohm 5.1 setup. However, a lesser amp is sufficient to drive 8ohm speakers, and DSP's and DAC's are what determine the accuracy of a sources representation in the digital domain. The NAD 7x3's use CS493263, and the Rotel uses CS494003. NAD's DSP's and DAC's are a couple generations behind, you can't argue that fact. John |
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New member Username: NadPost Number: 10 Registered: May-04 | Adam, I thought this thread was through posting ignorant comments like that. Especially after the Peace that Ghia put up. You wrote "blah blah blah...NAD Blah blah blah..." and then something about your Mom being a mindless troll and spreading her manure? You obviously want this to continue... |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 80 Registered: Apr-04 | Hehe N.A.D., I'm not going to dignify that with an answer. Feeding trolls is baaad. John, I guess I must have seen some wrong info then. My bad. However I still don't think the processor section is as important as good amps. Even though you might not get distortion with a less powerful amp, the lack of power will be obvious in a lacking transient performance, and poor dynamics. As for speaker impedance, most speakers I like that I can buy here, are 4 ohm for some reason. But even the 8 ohm performance by the 3803 is weak. So you'd need a separate power amp for it to sound good with all but the smallest and easiest speakers to drive. |
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New member Username: JblizPost Number: 7 Registered: Mar-04 | Oh well, wouldn't be any fun if we all agreed on everything. I think NAD will come around on the DSPs and DACs, that's really the cheap stuff. Amps are pricey. I was seriously considering the NAD 763 with some Maggies for quite some time, but decided against it in the end. I had a big concern that my girlfriend's cat would mistake one of the MMG's for a scratching post or something. The receiver I really really want is a Pioneer 59TXi, but I don't have that kind of dough. I would pick up a 55TXi if it had PLIIx. |
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Bronze Member Username: NadPost Number: 11 Registered: May-04 | John, with all kidding set aside and I don't know your budget, but the Pioneer 59txi have come down in price to about $2,600 USD. I was also interested in this particular model prior to purchasing the Denon 3805. NAD (aka Troll, aka Adam's mom) |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 208 Registered: Feb-04 | You Go NAD! |
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New member Username: JblizPost Number: 8 Registered: Mar-04 | Trying to keep my receiver budget around 1000. My only real problem with the Denon is that dumbass proprietary DenonLink, which forces me to buy a Denon player if I want to enjoy multichannel audio in the digital domain. Also, the amps could be better, as discussed. My major problem with the Pioneer in my price range, the 55TXi, is no PLIIx. Basically, there is nothing on the market that meets all of my needs. Perhaps I'm too high maintenance when it comes to HT. On another note, a Samsung DLP powerbuy just started up over at the avsforum for the new HLP models. Prices are 25% under MSRP and include shipping. That's money, but I gotta wait for the units with the H2+ chip. |
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Silver Member Username: LandrovalPost Number: 190 Registered: Feb-04 | I really dont see the point in this admiration of PL2x (and 7.1). It has a point if you have a big and wide room with a good 7.1 speaker system, but still it's just an artificial system to spread the surround info to more speakers. The audio quality it produces is not that good, so I would rather listen 5.1 sources in 5.1 and the extended versions in 6/7.1 if it's really needed. The extra cost of two additional and mostly useless speakers is also so very unnecessary for most home theaters. It would be a lot better investment to put that money on better front speakers or amps or picture or Hawaii vacation. |
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Bronze Member Username: NadPost Number: 12 Registered: May-04 | There's definitely nothing wrong with being high maintenance in the HT business. Unfortunately, it also comes at a "high maintenance" price. I know it's not the same and don't kill me for saying this, but you could always use the 5/7 channel stereo mode. |
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New member Username: JblizPost Number: 9 Registered: Mar-04 | landroval, I only wanted to fish speaker wire once, so I went 7.l. Plus, my room is perfect for 7.1 speaker placement. I just had to do it. I'm going with Ascend Acoustics speakers, so they aren't that expensive. THAT'S IT!!! You're a dead man N.A.D. Kidding, but 7 channel stereo does sound like a$$ compared to PLIIx. |
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Silver Member Username: LandrovalPost Number: 191 Registered: Feb-04 | Ok, if you have a suitable room and 7.1 speakers then PL2x or Logic7 makes sense. |
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New member Username: NeedleyePost Number: 2 Registered: May-04 | Great Thread Thanks everybody for the info. John "I'm going with Ascend Acoustics speakers, so they aren't that expensive" Have you researched Axiom Audio speakers, Epic 60 or the Epic 80 systems in particular |
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St. Louis Blues Unregistered guest | My NAD T763 has performed flawlessly- driving 4-ohm speakers (Dynaudios). Had the same concerns before purchasing- reading the negative posts. But, figure you will only ever read post from people b*tching- so I pulled the trigger. Like I said- great to this point. |
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Unregistered guest | SLB, So good to hear that YOUR NAD is running flawlessly; YOUR world must be all warm and fuzzy contrary to all of the mindless people reporting monumental NAD malfunctions and aggravation across all audio forums on the net. Guess what? My T752 running 4 ohm Snells is also running OK. However, I won't hold your smug attitude that all the other people are b!tching and wholly imagining their NAD woes. There is no whine from people when their NAD has dogged out on them; simple prevalent fact. Accordingly, I'm not b!tching but, I'm also not one of those "it's minor surgery if it's somebody else and major surgery if it's me" types - so typical of NAD owners whose A/V unit is running OK. So, how much do you stand to lose when YOUR two year NAD warranty expires and the unit goes south? 1K or so? |
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Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 122 Registered: Apr-04 | SLB, I don't see a "smug attitude" in your post. Just a simple statement that you've had a great experience with your T763. But, evidently, happiness and satisfaction with your equipment isn't allowed to be expressed on this board without some sort of attack on you from the naysayers. Just problems. Just negativity. Just bitterness. Those are the only opinions that are acceptable. Anyway, glad to hear you are enjoying your unit. |
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Unregistered guest | mary poppins, When somebody accuses other NAD owners - and uses the word "b!tch" as duly repeated by this writer - by definition and usage of the word "b!tch" one might generally surmise that this typifies "smug" which is also, as stated, typical of most NAD owners whose units ARE running OK. Step back and sleep in the NAD dog house if you could possibly imagine that it has ever happened. Futhermore, I cheerfully reported that MY NAD is running OK but, I am not oblivious to the real world of NAD malfunctions. |
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Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 123 Registered: Apr-04 | jw Your "cheerful" report got lost in your own smugness of how you are somehow above other NAD owners. Frankly, I don't give a crap what unit you own. What I'm sick of on this thread is the attacks on those who represent viewpoints au contraire to the negativity of you and n.a.d. I've seen others report problems without the condescending attitude and overall obnoxious displayed by you and n.a.d. Apparently, that point is too deep to be understood by some, though I'm not sure why. I'm sure you think referring to me as "mary poppins" is clever but it is an example of the attacks I'm referring to. This thread has degenerated to the point where it is not worth the time to read it. If you want to attack me further, go on....I won't know about it...maybe one of "my" boys will stick up for me. Enjoy your ranting. PEACE. |
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St. Louis Blues Unregistered guest | Wow- didn't know I was that 'deep' of a writer- or 'smug' because I used the word 'btching' in my post. Got a few to jump offsides though- so either I have the ability to push buttons- or there's just a lot of pent up angst around here. Not the intent at all. Maybe I should have used a different term to get the point across- that you usually don't hear a whole lot about a product- be it a receiver a car a computer, etc.- if it's working right. You usually only hear when it's not. I can go into any forum for any product- and comments taken at face value- would typically leave you somewhere in the middle- to negative on purchasing. It's just not a perfect world. I'm not shilling for NAD- as I would have probably been happy with comparable Marantz or Denon- or more upscale equipment. Heck- I still really like my old Sony receiver. To boil it down- I'm sure- as with any product- there's good and bad. As I've stated in earlier post- I've had good luck so far. Will it continue? I hope so- If not- you pay your money and take your chances. JW- sorry for firing you up. Sit back, take it easy and believe that I know there are plenty of people who have problems- as documented- as there are people who haven't. And- I take both sides with a grain of salt. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1259 Registered: Dec-03 | I've just read this whole thread for the first time. Some good points made, and thanks. But the main point of disagreement seems to be NAD reliability. It is an argument based on an assertion that has no support. At least, here. So I'm with St Louis. I see no evidence, here, against the proposal that NAD has a frequency of QC issues that is the same as that for the whole population of comparable AV components from all manufacturers. That applies to all AV components, and to specific kinds (receivers; players; whatever). If there is such evidence from somewhere else, please let us know, it can only help. My Rantz started a nice thread on this issue: NAD - To be or not to be?". Plenty of anecdotes, some very interesting. But no base for comparison, and no statistics. |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 58 Registered: Dec-03 | Uh oh! Denons really have quality control problems. Just call me Not Another Denon. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=44e072a26ed498dcd3bf11246fe46330 &threadid=407375 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=b5f0225fc7478dadc1509f1e15d8ed36 &threadid=407418 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=406213 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=405863 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=404844 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=403165 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=401021 |
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New member Username: JblizPost Number: 10 Registered: Mar-04 | raj shetty, I have researched the axioms. Their products look great and have a very flat frequency response. I chose the ascends because I heard alot of people find them overly bright, and I'm don't like bright. John |
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MarcUR Unregistered guest | jonathan, 3 of those problems are just plain stupid. One is about a remote, a second is about a person not understanding what he was buying, versus a problem with the receiver, and a third is about a 7 year old unit. Doesn't really come close to the problems of the NAD. After going through 5 NADs myself with no luck, i'm in the boat of calling them numerous abnormalities detected as well. During my many visits to my dealer, i did hear of a couple of other problems not discussed on this board, mostly with the FM/AM radio though. |
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Unregistered guest | MUR, Many would have to agree with your assessment of the Denon "problems", kind of irrelevant as you mentioned. Amazing! Five NAD's with problems as reported by you in the post - N-numerous A-abnormalities D-detected plus additional problems reported by your dealer. You do represent another statistic piling up on a mountain of independent reports regarding NAD headaches. I can only share your concern and hope it did not cost you any of your hard earned money investing in NAD. Thanks for your report. |
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New member Username: NeedleyePost Number: 3 Registered: May-04 | John I didnt get "I chose the ascends because I heard alot of people find them overly bright, and I'm don't like bright" could u please elaborate/ Raj |
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Bronze Member Username: JblizPost Number: 11 Registered: Mar-04 | Raj, I guess I can't really elaborate because I haven't heard the speakers. I just made my decision based on consumer reviews, speaker shootouts, etc. Plus, the Ascend package is a little cheaper. Both manufacturer's make great speakers from what I've heard. But the description of the Ascend speakers sounded more up my alley. John |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 59 Registered: Dec-03 | MarcUR, yeah some are stupid as some of the NAD complaints. As discussed ad naseum, I am a NAD owner and I have past problem with one unit. I have always advocated buying through an authorized dealer whom is trustworthy. I was just making the point that I don't think you can evaluate the overall quality control by counting complaints in the forums though they certainly can be factored into decisions. One interesting review I found is here: http://www.graskinhometheatre.bigstep.com/generic93.html which compares the NAD T763, Marantz 7400 and the Denon 3805 and has the Denon the clear winner (and the NAD the clear loser) in personal comparisons that involve the Martin Logan Montage speakers that I have. Since I have the NAD T763, this wasn't anything I wanted to hear. I don't know if this guy has any credibility, I just throw it out as submitted for your consideration. I happen to think the the Montages sound terrific with the NAD but what the heck do I know? And I have never heard the Denon 3805 or even other Denon AV receivers. |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 86 Registered: Apr-04 | Jonathan, Something is very wrong with that review. The reviewers "results" contradict practically every experience MANY people, myself included, have with those brands. Marantz and NAD sounding bright, shrill and sibilant? Denon sounding warm and smooth? How can that be possible? He mentions the twilight zone. He must have been in it to get those results. |
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Bronze Member Username: JblizPost Number: 12 Registered: Mar-04 | There's nothing wrong with that review. Just more proof that what sounds good to one ear doesn't sound good to another. However, subjective reviews like that don't mean very much to me. |
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Bronze Member Username: Bobby29Post Number: 16 Registered: Apr-04 | That guy didn't even demo the stuff in his own home. He demo'd the NAD and Marantz at the same dealer and said almost the same about both. Then he went to a different dealer and demo'd the Denon. I would think the diffrences in sound resulted in room acoustics, speaker types, and/or poor wiring rather than receiver performance. |
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george_k Unregistered guest | Here's a relevant link showing that the 5803 rated at 170x7 clipping at 118x7, there are other amplifiers there but all the test Denon's except for the 4800 rated below their specifications by 3-4% |
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george_k Unregistered guest | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm |
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Bronze Member Username: DocdatCopenhagenDenmark Post Number: 88 Registered: Apr-04 | George K, Sound & Vision have a much less stringent measurement method than other mags, so their results are usually inflated compared with others. It is also the only mag that has shown the 2803/3803 to perform anywhere near spec. Every other test shows it to be much lower than you would expect from the official info. A couple of examples: http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/903denon/index2.html http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=3691 Both are with 8 ohm loads. 4 ohm power is about ½ the 8 ohm rating. The Denon importer for Denmark has officially admitted that Denon states their power ratings with only 2 channels driven. That this isn't mentioned anywhere by Denon is unfortunate. |
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Bronze Member Username: JonmoonPost Number: 60 Registered: Dec-03 | Perhaps another factor is that listening in demo periods may provide unreliable information. Take this comment in the Martin Logan forum regarding the Denon AVR 3805 which indicates that the commentor's initial reaction wasn't necessarily his long term view: http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/messages/6591.html Quote: "Initially we really liked the Denon 3805 A/V Receiver because everything was really sharp and jumped out at us. Our latest previews of the Denon 3805 with this system, though, has revealed to us that perhaps we prefer a little less "brightness" to the sound. Although we will be using this for primarily a home theater system and like the "oomph" that the Denon provides, we are also aware of the "fatigue" factor involved with long term exposure to the harsher sounds." |
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Bronze Member Username: JblizPost Number: 13 Registered: Mar-04 | Yes, I think we have all agreed several times in this thread that NADs have the superior amps, but that doesn't mean they will sound the best to everyone. On the other hand, the Denon will process a sound source more accurately, but the Denon won't sound the best to everyone either. Similarly, some people might love the sound of a speaker with a nice flat response, while others think a more inaccurate speaker sounds superior. I always try to go for accuracy. |
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Richard from NZ Unregistered guest | Interesting thread - thought my experiences may be helpful... I bought an Denon AVR3801 a few years back. It was my first surround amp and replaced a NAD pre-power combo I had. While the 7 channel surround was great, I was very disappointed at the quality of the stereo sound from the Denon and couldn't listen to my CDs on it at all. I eventually put the NAD power amp (rated at 50Wx2) in to run the front L+R channels and the improvement was incredible. In terms of the sound I got out of my JBL speakers the NAD 50W was louder and cleaner than the Denon 80W (3801 was 105W into 6 ohm, 80W into 8 ohm). I recently picked up a 100w x 2 NAD and that is even better. However... the worst audio component I ever bought was a NAD T550 DVD player. This thing was shocking. It never worked properly, went back and forwards to the repairers three times, was replaced once and was eventually replaced by the newer T562 model - which is markedly better but is still not as good as my pioneer deck that cost 1/3rd the price. I'd recommend NAD for analog electronics - amps, preamps, phono - and for simple digital components such as CD, but personally I'd be very wary of their digital components until they have been about for a few generations and all the bugs have been ironed out. |
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Bronze Member Username: MgkaplanCalabasas, CA USA Post Number: 49 Registered: Mar-04 | The DAC is an important factor impacting sound quality. My experience is that the DACs in the NAD do not quite live up to the quality of their amps. For the best sound from an NAD, I would suggest using quality source components with more sophisticated DACs. |
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