I've read a lot about some of the mods being done by Reference Audio and wondered if anyone had first had knowledge of them. The prices aren't cheap. They want $900 to upgrade my NAD C541i cdp, but allegedly the difference in sound quality is dramatic.
Here is what they propose to do.....
Superclock 4 - $295.00 installed
Power Supply Upgrade- Includes RAM custom rectifier, Rubycon ZA/ZL decoupling, Furutech IEC, Audio Consulting Silver wire/cotton- $300.00 installed
Analog output stage upgrades- Replace opamp with best sounding versions, Rubycon ZA/ZL decoupling/coupling, WBT NextGen RCA's. $300 installed
Does anyone have positive experiences with these guys ? or negative ones ?
There's no doubt you can improve on most budget gear by judicious parts replacement and tweaking. The issue becomes what else could you have purchased for the overall outlay. When you consider the basic quality of what you are starting with - in this case, a mid priced NAD - after you've invested the additional $900, you could be looking at a slightly used $2k player to begin with. The more expensive player starts out with better parts overall. Mods generally make a product more difficult to resell so you seldom get your money back on the deal. But, if you're the kind of guy who would put a $3k lens on a $700 camera body, you might want to investigate further.
"When you consider the basic quality of what you are starting with - in this case, a mid priced NAD"
ohhhHHHHhhh ouchhhh. Jan - A shot to the heart of a true NAD lover..im dieing here.
Chris- Buy a better cd play IMO.
Jan- Changing the subject a bit, and this is just a question, and not meant to sound snippy what so ever. NAD...is it really that entry level? Im just curious. You see when I bought my system I was looking for a nice sounding HOME THEATER system, and as far as A/V receivers in NAD's price range, or even more expensive, nothing came close for me. Now that I am getting into more of the audio side of things as well, and want good two channel audio, and hanging out at the audio forum, certain questions are popping up in my head. Such as...Is NAD crap?? It seems like audiophiles like yourself seem to look at NAD stuff as very very basic, entry level stuff. See Basic to me would be a cruddy SOny cd player from Future Shop.lol. What im asking is, what is entry level...I don't want stuff that audiophiles think is crap. Where would you put NAD in terms of comparison to other companies. Are they Rotel level?(I auditioned Rotel receivers roughly 10 times and every time I thought they were too bright and tiring) You may not understand my question...as Im pretty tired and can't seem to word it very well. But I hope you can give me some insight on what you think of NAD. And when I ask you that I mean sound quality only. I hope to hear from you about this. Cheers.
My opinion of NAD is probably different from most others on this forum. Overall I believe NAD has come a long way from where they started. Unfortunately, I don't think NAD has moved in the right direction. But the market has changed over the last thirty years and NAD positioned themself to move with the trends in the buying habits of the public. What had been innovative in 1979 is now commonplace if not passe and my feeling is NAD has had a rocky history over the last thirty years to build upon.
I sold and owned a 3020 and a 1020 pre amp many years ago. I really never could figure out what the buzz about NAD was all about. Soundwise, I still hear the same problems with today's NAD that I heard in those units back at the dawn of NAD's existence. Specifically, notes do not start or stop correctly IMO through NAD equipment. The gear doesn't sound "warm" or "tubey" or all that "musical" to my ears. And I'm not much of a fan of soft clipping switches.
One of the most striking things tubes do correctly for me is this start and stop thing. Most bipolar transistor based equipment doesn't get this right for me and NAD is still bipolar transistors in most cases. I've heard their Master Series components once, but they still have the same NAD sound as far as I'm concerned.
I agree with your assessment of Rotel. NAD and Rotel share many of the same potential customers and I suppose having such dramatic differences between the two lines benefits both. At this price level many customers are still learning what to hear and making it fairly obvious makes decisions easier for many listeners. I understand most of the reasons someone would buy one or the other just as I understand why someone would buy Klipsch or JBL even though neither is a brand that comes to mind when I think of what I might want to own.
I'll be interested in how the Master Series works out for NAD. This is somewhat like Toyota bringing out a luxury version of the Camry and labeling it a Lexus. We'll see if loyalty to NAD holds when the competition is much more capable of raising the stakes.
Good stuff, thanks for the input Jan. Much appreciated. As a theater, I feel I have a great sounding system, but in the next year or two I will be piecing together a two channel system all together separate from the theater. This forum, and people like yourself have opened my eyes to a whole world of audio equipment and opinions, and it is great. I will be moving away from NAD for the two channel setup I have decided, this means I will be auditioning a lot of different brands. I will be moving into Bryston, Rega, even as high as MAC level. Speakers is another thing, as I am excited to wonder off the Paradigm path as well.lol. Once again, I am glad you took the time to post back for me.Cheers.
The other obvious options I was looking were buying a decent used piece of gear, a new unit, or going the outboard DAC route. I was looking at two units at a store the other day. One was an Arcam CD73T but I thought it might be more of a side-grade than an upgrade. They also had a used Jolida JD100A. It sounded excellent in the store, but of course on entirely difference gear than mine.
If I was to buy new, someone I have some respect for recommended the Simaudio or Cambridge Audio gear as good choices. I'm sure there are many others. Rega is another I read a lot of good things about.
For about what it would cost to upgrade my NAD, I could buy a very nice Cambridge Audio unit brand new. Or, I'd have nearly enough to get a Benchmark DAC1 (or other similarly capable unit), and just use my NAD as a transport.
I'll have to stew on it some more and figure out what I want to do. I don't want to spend more than $1000. I'll upgrade my NAD receiver next, as soon as I have the funds. I'm going back to a straight two channel unit.
I am into the used stuff... Let somebody else take a bath on the new stuff... I would only make sure that it was from a reputable source that is the key.... if I run into problems I wanna have someone respond to my bitchn
Sure.... From what I have heard I think Rotel and Cambridge as entry level "Audiophile" systems and I include NAD. It is where I am cutting my teeth and developing my ear. A step up from Technics, for sure but still on the low end of the best stuff availble.
Be aware however, my exposure to them (Cambridge and Rotel) has been limited however, I know NAD, so I am comfortable saying it is entry level. I may be wrong but I think when you start moving up the chain where prices are > $1500.00 I think you are moving into more high end systems.
I have heard systems from the likes of Bryston, Naim, Sugden and Audio Frontiers (Maybe Rega as well) which are I believe a step up from my current system and where I will be moving towards.
I agree to a point. I would agree that my NAD cdp and receiver are entry level audiophile. However, I've heard systems with the mid to upper level Rega, CA, and Creek components and they sound significantly better. So much better in fact that I would think you would think you would be in that area where price/improvement ratio would start to get pretty high.
John's comment about used gear is what has kept me from pulling the trigger on a couple of decks recently. My fear is that I'd spend that $1000 on a much higher value component, only to have it fail on me with no recourse.
However, I've heard systems with the mid to upper level Rega, CA, and Creek components and they sound significantly better. So much better in fact that I would think you would think you would be in that area where price/improvement ratio would start to get pretty high.
I made an upgrade recently within NAD... That I would say was a significant improvement (Added two C272s power Amps) That is a huge improvement... It is still an entry level system.
I do not think I can stay within the NAD line or move over to CA and gain any further benefits so it is time to move on to the next level.
I would say that from what I know (Limited though that is) CA is at least still entry. Rega I think is a step ahead from what I have read and limited amount of research. I cannot really comment on Creek.
One thing that gets reinforced a lot here John (not that I've been here long) is to trust your ear. If you exclude brands because of what you think they sound like, you may miss something special and/or spend more money than you need to.
Living in rural Nova Scotia it is difficult for me to get my ear in front of a lot of these brands, so forums like this are very helpful, although ultimately personal auditions are best, preferably in my own home.
True. As A/V receivers go I would consider the 1800 dollar and up NAD receivers to be a bit more then entry level. Their Integrated Classic series amps I would consider Audiophile entry level like John said. Then you have their Masters Series, which to my ear, and to many others, is def. not considered Entry Level. I think their best stuff they sell in the classic series is the two or three power amps and receivers. As far as receivers go there isn't too many companies out there that sound better. As far as two channel stuff goes, perhaps entry level...but entry level in an audiophile rating.
John- The C272 is surprisingly good. It is Entry level price point, but has been known to knock the crap out of some 2 channel amps at double it's price. Good pick up IMO. I agree with you as well on the fact Bryston and Naim are good upgrades. When I put together a 2 channel system, I too will be listening to those two brands. As far as building a home theater though, a lot of the high end companies don't deal in multi-channel receivers.
First off.. Rural NS... Luckly Guy I would love to move out to the east coast.... Sit on my porch, drink wine listen to tunes... that may be my retirement.
One thing that gets reinforced a lot here John (not that I've been here long) is to trust your ear. If you exclude brands because of what you think they sound like, you may miss something special and/or spend more money than you need to.
Damn Straight... could not agree more with that statement.... trust yur ear but know when to move on to the next level. I Love NAD... but once you start moving into the 1500+ price point you have moved into another level You start competing with Naim, Sugden, Bryston etc. That is where you start redefining and refining the sound even more than we have so far.
All I am saying is that when you start out, do not be too "Brand Loyal" and make sure that you know when to move on and reallly use your ears.
Nick... C272 are everything you say and more! I love em and even (do not jump all over me) prefer them over a friend's Bryston setup.
I do not think I will need to replace the amps in my system for along time, they are that expressive.
John- I agree. The C272 is awesome. I would consider it, based on sound quality and power, higher end than entry level audiophile material.
"once you start moving into the 1500+ price point you have moved into another level"
I think the products NAD does have that are over 1500 are good products that still Rival for sound, products more expensive. But I do know what you mean. Once you hit that price point in CDP's and such, than yes its time to upgrade.lol. If I could find a Bryston power amp or integrated amp for 1500 I would buy it right now.lol. Everything I have seen of theirs, you have to take out a small car loan just to buy one.haha.
oh and John- The dealer I got my NAD stuff through has a Rotel,NAD,and Bryston 2 channel power amps on this one Rack for people to test back and forth to see which one they like better. He said, In his opinion(and this is just based on those three power amps) that his favorite was the NAD. It is a C272 of course.lol.So your not the first person I have heard say that.