New at Cambridge Audio
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 684 Registered: Apr-04 | Check this out! Looks like CA is taking over the mid-fi from NAD. They certainly are on a roll these days! I was planing on replacing all of my NAD gear with the 840A and 840C after demoing them at home a couple of months ago and was blown away......however, I have decided to wait until the end of the year for this product instead. http://whathifi.com/hi-fi/archive/2007/06/21/news-cambridge-audio-plans-upgrades -pre-power-and-turntable-for-azur-range.aspx |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 122 Registered: Jun-07 | In which way do you feel they are "taking over the mid-fi from NAD"??? Just curious. Do u mean in sales or something? |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 685 Registered: Apr-04 | I have bought NAD for 20 years but as of about 5 years, they have stopped progressing and CA has taken a giant leap forward in technology. There sales reps do not respond to store needs as they did in the late 90s and are lagging behind in their Audio visual gear. I have always loved NAD equipment for what they are worth but there is now much better for the same price region. The three dealers I use as my contacts sell both and tell me that the NAD company is not as serious as before. They are not forwarning stores and clients as to what is coming in the future and in general, clients prefer the CA sound that the XD amplifiers put out as well as the upsampling of the 840C player and are outselling NAD 10 to 1 in most cases. I hope I am wrong but NAD must improve there customer service as well along with a better informed website. There does not seem to be anything new on the horizon except for some AV amps and a Class D amp next year. Other than that, I know nothing. Try the XD amps by CA and you will be very impressed. I have the privaledge of traveling a lot and can listen to many makes in different stores and let me tell you, they compare to equipment three times their price! The mid-fi section is the fastest growing out there because not much new can be developed in the higher end and lets face it, 95% of the people do not either want to spend that kind of money or do not care to so it is an interesting market. CA has made some wonderful new gear that I would not of even considered 3 years ago! |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 124 Registered: Jun-07 | CA is a very good company I agree with you. As far as NAD not trying anymore...well..what about their Masters Series?? That is new in that last 5 years. It just won Reference Product of the year from three different award companies. NAD and Denon sold more receivers then anybody in 2006 and so far in 2007 BY FAR! In home theater Magazine, March issue of 07, they claim that Denon and NAD combined out sell any other audio company in 06 six to one. Mind you im not a huge fan of Denon. Im not saying CA isn't better then NAD. Or that NAD is not better then CA. I think they are in a close enough range of each other that when the oppinion arises on which is better, its based on which type of sound you prefer. Such as the long time argument between NAD and Rotel quality. As far as their support goes, I have heard bad and good, but I have only delt with them once and they treated me pretty well. I have listened to CA and thought it was very nice sounding. I think when the day comes to upgrade from what I have now though, I will not consider CA as a huge upgrade but look at Arcam's high end stuff or some Bryston. Cheers. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 192 Registered: Mar-04 | Cambridge seems to update their models more often than any company I have seen, whether or not this is a good thing I don't know. Cambridge is slick in that their high end Azur line is priced between the NAD classic series and the masters series. I think NAD held off on releasing the new a/v receivers because they wanted to get the latest software, and they made them modular so updates can be implemented without having to replace the unit. I think NAD has some things up it's sleeves though only time will tell. This I do know, the companies competing as they are is a good thing for the consumer. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 130 Registered: Jun-07 | I agree unbridled_id. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 193 Registered: Mar-04 | I just did some converting and the amp would sell for $2000 and the pre for $1500. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 131 Registered: Jun-07 | Right on. I see you have a C272. Nice piece. I love what that amp did to my monster towers. I feel the C272 will go down as one of the best values in Power Amps, if it already hasn't that is. |
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Silver Member Username: Sun_kingUK Post Number: 403 Registered: Mar-04 | Cambridge Audio are getting a little like Musical Fidelity in that they are constantly releasing new kit. NAD release a new product and then stick with it a good few years. Whilst progression is good, nobody wants to feel that they have yesterday's equipment 6 months after buying and companies who constantly tinker often annoy me. Besides, does it really sound that much better than the previous model? Going back to NAD, their last batch of amps actually sound WORSE than the ones that went before so I'm not a sheep for this upgrading thing. One thing I will say is that Cambridge Audio will have to try very hard with the reliability and build quality side of things to win me over because the only two items I have ever owned from that company went faulty within a month. That has understandably cooled my desire to own more of their kit. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5141 Registered: Feb-05 | "Besides, does it really sound that much better than the previous model?" I agree Adam. In fact if it does sound that much better what does that say. It's irritating. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 194 Registered: Mar-04 | I think NAD's customer service is quite good. Here in Chicago we have several authorized service centers. In addition, I have personally corresponded with their head tech guy (Bob Maran) on a couple of questions and issues I had. I have come to believe that Cambridge updating their models to v2's every 8-12 months is a bit fishy to me. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 134 Registered: Jun-07 | I agree, and agree. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 686 Registered: Apr-04 | Updating models does not mean that they do this because they are faulty!!!! as I said, I have owned NAD equipment for 20 years and can say that they have slipped a little. If anyone should of upgraded it was NAD with their AV amps! They were breaking down left and right but were still selling the same models. I have always defended NAD in every way and do not get me wrong, they are great for their price range but there is better and if you can demo the new CA Azurs at home.......DO IT! It has always taken me a lot to say something was that much better than what I own to buy it,,,, well this was it! Nick, I compared the new Azurs to the Masters Series line up and you would be surpised! I was! I found them not worth the extra few thousand and heard nothing better. The Azur 840A even had a surprising advantage at low volume due to it operating in Class A with much less distortion. I can also vouch for the C272 amp. It is worth way more than its price. I have 2 that never let me down. I do not agree with AV that the newer line up is worse than the one beofre it as I also owned that as well and noticed a better control with the 272 over the 270 but each person has their preference. This is a debate I am not looking to win only to make a point that you can be as loyal as you want but also I think their is an element of logic and if NAD does indeed have something on the way, than the consumer should be forwarned so guys like me after 20 years of loyal service don't stray! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5144 Registered: Feb-05 | Is there a debate? I just find it irritating when a company upgrades it's models over and over (Paradigm comes to mind) instead of taking the time or respecting the consumer enough to get it a little closer to right the first time. You don't see McIntosh, Rega, Naim or any of those doing that. That's not to say that Cambridge isn't good but It's ok if I find their policy irritating, which I and some others do. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 687 Registered: Apr-04 | I do agree with you on that one. However, I have found some info on the version 2 of the 840A coming this Fall and it seems that they only changed something with the balanced outputs to decrease noise and some of the Op Amps in the pre-amp stage. I think it has something more to do with a newer technology than a sound change. I believe if anything would warrant a sound change that would most likely follow with a price increase! I am only guessing based on the look of the power amp but it seems to have two torroidal transformers but I could be wrong. I think they are trying to place themselves in a higher league than mid-fi at the same time not going where NAD did with the Masters Series. I also read somewhere that NAD is enjoying much more success with the Master Series than they predicted and that may have something to do with the lack of progression with their other items. In another thread previously, I had a chance to bring home both the Onkyo 605 and the NAD 763 AV amps and ended up buying the Onkyo! I only use it for DVD so music had nothing to do with my choice. The Onkyo was an equal if not better. It has major functions for the next generation HD DVD's, HDMI 1.3 etc......the NAD has none of that and costs twice the price. I have become very logical in my choices now and brand loyalty can have its limits. As I mentioned, I get to listen to a lot of gear at any price and that does not make me an audiophile but it does give me the chance to broaden my choices. It is hard to choose these days because there is so much competition but I can only wish that NAD will give comsumers some info as to what they are doing for the next 6 months like other companioes do. I really don't care if they outsell others but CA has increased their sales percentage wise more than others and dealers will tell you that carry both lines that the service is better with CA right now. My dealer is one of the oldest NAD sellers in Canada (27 years I believe) and has awards and plaques from years past but now says that they won't even allow him to sell tha Masters Series unless he buys $10000 worth of items. He has always been an authorised service dealer as well and they won't let him touch anything of this series. I as a customer, want to buy from my dealer knowing that he fixes what he sells. Sending away an amp for a month is not interesting to me......it may of never happened but it does not mean it won't. I sound like I'm bashing NAD and maybe I am because since the Master Series, mid-fi customers like most of us have been short tailed in terms of progression. Once again, this is a comment from dealers that I meet. What used to sell almost by itself is being taken over by other brands in their stores. NAD is also selling more and more through the Internet as well as CA but they are still giving a better quality service through their distribution people with the store outlets. Lastly, many companies are constantly upgrading odds and ends in their equipment that most of the time goes un-published and un-noticed! Go look at NAD's website, there is hardly ever anything new or updated that we are made aware of but you can bet that with the heating problem of the 372 and 272, they changed something in the caps. Therefore, it should read C272 V2! This by the way, can be considered quite a major change to the amp itself and would have to be done accordingly so not to effect the sound. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 136 Registered: Jun-07 | Your opinion on the fact that NAD's Masters Series was not a successful step into the Hi-Fi world, your are so wrong its retarded. It has won the hearts of so many, including reputable magazine companies, dealers, customers and of course the Oscars of all Audio awards giving it PRODUCT OF THE YEAR!!!! How much more could you want out of a new line? As far as NAD wanting your dealer to pay a certain amount to bring in the Masters Series this is normal. To bring any new line in it cost dealers money. 30 grand for Arcam. 15 grand for Bryston. 10 Grand for NAD classic and 100 Grand for NAD Masters. NAD is treating the Masters Series as a whole seperate line of audio. Therefore dealers, if they want to bring it onboard, have to pay for it. When I bought my NADT763 I ALSO brought home a Onkyo, and a Rotel. Needless to say I UNDERSTOOD that NAD is simple in the connections and settings and put most of their effort and money into sound quality. This is the whole idea behind NAD. Needless to say the Onkyo sounded like crap compared to the NAD and Rotel. The Rotel was also very good but didn't match up with my speakers as nice as the NAD. I like the warmer sound. Either way, I do agree with you that CA is good stuff. It is, and everyone knows that. If you like it better then NAD, thats cool, then you prefer the sound of it to NAD. The fact that you like it better because NAD's web site stays simple or the same, is rediculous. Or the fact that NAD isn't releasing a new lineup of receivers every 6 months is also insane. You got to remember, the whole idea behing NAD's company, is simple, great sounding products for a really good price. Sure CA may sound AS good for roughly the SAME price range, but releasing new products every 6-8 months, to me, isn't keeping things simple. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5151 Registered: Feb-05 | Danman has always been a faithful defender of NAD so I for one take it seriously when he says anything bur good things about them. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 141 Registered: Jun-07 | That is cool, but i just disagree mainly with the fact that NAD Masters series has not been a success in any way. If a person doesn't like it is one thing, that is fine. But to say that it isn't a success? Or that they didn't go in the right direction with it? ahhh I don't know about that. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 142 Registered: Jun-07 | Perhaps, the air conditioner at work today broke down and Im surrounded by 30 Rackmounted Digital Surveillance Systems, with my hands in one, and it is 400 degree's in here. Perhaps im just in a bad mood today.LOL. Lets all go home and have a beer, and if we have NAD, Rotel, CA, Anthem, Arcam whatever, lets just be happy that we are priveledged compared to most. CHEERS!!! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5153 Registered: Feb-05 | You are right it has been a success and in my opinion is far better than comparably priced Musical Fidelity gear however I didn't find it's musical presentation very compelling. That's why there is so much gear...there is something for all of us. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5154 Registered: Feb-05 | Agreed Nick! |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 143 Registered: Jun-07 | Sweet, I suppose sooner or later I will upgrade. It seems Rega gear such as your own Art, gets very high reviews from people. Perhaps I will look into it. Someone just mentioned on another forum that the price of the Apollo cd player is around 500 dollars????? Is this true??And if so, why dont I have one yet?lol. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5155 Registered: Feb-05 | No it's still 1k or I'd have 2... ! |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 145 Registered: Jun-07 | lol. Still a great value. A Def upgrade from my NAD. Something to look forward to. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2016 Registered: May-05 | I'm not an NAD basher but... Every NAD dealer I've ever come across (a lot have come and gone) has said the same thing - NAD is a stupid company and hard to deal with. They want the dealer to order a higher amount of gear than they have room for. Then when they place the order just to shut them up, they never send as many as they ordered. For instance, one dealer said they required him to order no less than 25 of a unit at a time, then they'd ship him 3 and tell him the rest was on the way. A few months later, he'd call and ask why he'd been charged for 25, yet still only has 3. 'When are the other 23 coming?' 'You need to order 25 at a time sir.' After about 10 years of it, he had enough. 'Rotel makes my life so much easier.' He now only sells NAD by special order and doesn't stock them. He tells customers that the unit will get there 3 weeks later than when NAD tells him, just to be safe. The company hates it, but doesn't cut him off. Then there were the non-issues with the AV receivers. NAD kept fixing them, taking a few months at a time, yet told the dealers they were all isolated incidents. 'One customer had 4 different receivers with the same exact issue (hum), as did at least half of the other NAD AVRs I sold. How isolated is that?' He still carries them, again on a special order basis, but tells the customer what they're in for. They all agree the 2 channel gear is very good for the money and has very few if any problems. The ones who dropped them got tired of the company's order policies and the way they treat the dealers. Dealing with irrate (and 'rightfully so') customers put the icing on the cake. Notice that most former NAD dealers picked up either Rotel or Marantz afterward? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5160 Registered: Feb-05 | Interesting Stu...my friend used to be a Rotel dealer and quit dealing with them for much the same reason you state for NAD. He is now an NAD dealer....again (he was an NAD dealer before but dumped them due to poor reliability). Maybe different reps. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2020 Registered: May-05 | I haven't spoken to that dealer since I've moved from that area. Maybe it's the regional rep/distributer? Every past and current NAD dealer in New York state said more or less the same thing. A shame really. One further note - NAD, like way too many other companies nowadays, doesn't own a manufacturing plant. They design the product and source it out to what appears to be the lowest bidder. For a while (maybe still?) NAD was made in the same factory as Onkyo and some other big box brand. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 160 Registered: Jan-07 | I would LOVE to see who made what and in what factory? Wouldn't it be neat if Mac were made in the same plant as Panasonic or (heaven forbid!) Denon? Everybody sources stuff from anybody. Car people are famous for this. Ford owns Jaguar so some content mix happened between some recent Jags and other Ford products, like the last rev of the 'Bird. Chevy owns Saab....gues what? VW / Porsche / Audi share some stuff...Well, actually more than 'some stuff'.....the platforms are shared between VW and Audi..... Who makes Outlaw? They are rebadged other brands, so they basically don't even have much in the line of design/ research. (good stuff, though, I hear) I would love to find out who actually makes Rotel, Nad, CA, AdCom, Outlaw and others. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5162 Registered: Feb-05 | Same with English Ford/Mazda and Volvo...but Mac...nah! |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 149 Registered: Jun-07 | Stu- You were right when u said it depends on the area rep he had. The guy I got my stuff from(I have never once had a humming problem ever) is my good friend who owns Red Ball Radio. He claims that if he orders 10 he gets 10. If he orders 5 he gets 5. Could be different I guess for certain dealers??I'm not sure. NAD does design the product, but owns a few plants now in the Republic of China where they only use those specific plants at all times to build their receivers. NAD products are not built in just any given plant with other products. NAD has had quality control problems, as it looked like perhaps some of their older products had poor grounding, and processor problems. It looks like it is all cleared up now. CA is still going through it. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8148 Registered: Dec-04 | Outlaw is good, leo. cept'n the amps. Never with a Mac, Art. We could buy them out first. All together, like. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 152 Registered: Jun-07 | I would be up for that.lol. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 161 Registered: Jan-07 | I'd pay money to attend the first board meeting. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8157 Registered: Dec-04 | so let's have some takers. We need Dacks. Dave Dakulis, are you still willing to shill for an audio group? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5166 Registered: Feb-05 | We have an attorney!!! |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 105 Registered: Jul-07 | 1- Looking at used equipment online i notice a large number of Rotel models. I found a chart to tell you the vintage but some are missing there. Too confusing. I decided to look for new models. 2- Speaking of Outlaw, Nuk. (The other Outlaw thread broke out into a fight.) I wonder how the Outlaw retro Reciever would compare with the Cambridge integrated amps for example. Well I suppose that is 2 questions, first of seperate amps vs recievers or integrated amps and secondly a matter of brand. Sorry. I am guessing that the reviewer means that the Outlaw amp is very good at $650 compared to other recievers. Probably not compared to seperate components. I am still not sure how much better seperate amps are. Very little experience. I have only had one kit of seperate amp-preamp. I had a huge old Haffler amp for many years but traded for my little Onix integrated amp because honestly it was easier to carry on the plane. (shame on me for such a superficial decision). I am seduced by the convenience. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8173 Registered: Dec-04 | KC, the Outlaw RR2150 stereo receiver has been well received by a lot of reviewers. It looks kinda neat, too! |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 688 Registered: Apr-04 | Nick, I am not sure if you read all of my posts but I said that NAD is enjoying a greater success with the Masters Series that they predicted....I never said it was not good!!!! I think you read what you wanted to believe. I am definately a NAD lover maybe longer than you have even known about them! 20 years is a long loyal following and still going. I have owned at least 60% of their 2 channel gear with out one failure! I bought JMLab Electra 926 speakers last year (worth 5000$) and can now taylor my system around them. This is an incredible speaker that has great sound all around to my ears. When I bought the 840A home for a week, I noticed a difference in clarity, soundstage and better frequency response all around. The 272 is a great amp but still only worth 800$ and does have its limitations. As I will repeat, I have the great opprotunity to listen to everything and can judge that NAD is not the only thing out there! I always knew that but was NOT going to spend 50000$ just to prove it. I want to stay in the mid-fi section but also want to increase my sound around my speakers as I do not believe in spending so much on expensive gear for a minimal increase compared to mid-fi! You also called Onkyo crap! Well, that is your opinion. I do NOT listen to music with the AV set-up strickly movies and basically, not that important to me in the first place since 90% of movies do nothing but talk! The NAD was obviously wonderful for both worlds but is way behind in functions and over priced compared to others right now. I know they are coming out with some great new stuff in the Fall but you can expect to pay from 2000 - 3000$ As I said again, the mid-fi section of NAD seems to be put on hold for now as they are enjoyng the fruits of the MAsters Series and probably their newer AV amps will also be as good for both music and movies but that still leaves me cold with how CA has taken advantage of this and excelled forward. You mention that the Master Series has won awards, well so has the 840A from CA! Probably they have won even more praise than any new NAD that came out the last 5 years except the 320bee! Awards mean nothing to me only sound and quality! Look inside the new 840A and you will see very high quality build that looks like it came for the Master Series but for half the price! I am worried about what NAD is coming out with in the class D range as this is a technology that will take many years to perfect and after listening to a few, I was not impressed. they sound like your car radio........full of bass and no upper frequency stability! To put an end to what I seem to have started here, I can say that if NAD comes out with a newer version of their pre/power in the next 6 months, you will be looking at its first buyer no doubt but if the new 840W from CA is anything like the 840A, you can bet my cash is going in that direction. I am looking very much forward to listening to this new model in the next few months to compare. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 689 Registered: Apr-04 | Nick you mentioned that NAD has all there problems fixed up and that CA is still going through it!!! Going through what? They only have 2 AV amps and they have been very well praised! |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 164 Registered: Jun-07 | Is there any CA dealers near me? Kingston, Ontario. I will take your word, and demo some of their stuff. I'm always up for improvements. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 195 Registered: Mar-04 | I think the NAD implementation of digital is a bit different than others http://www.zetex.com/. I am not in a position to say it will be better than the standard class D or not. I like what Cambridge has done with their Azur line, they have upped the ante in the mid-fi sector and that is a good thing. Hi-fi news just did a comparison of mid-fi integrateds and they preferred the c372 over the Azur 740. I would imagine the 840 would top the c372, though I would give NAD a chance to update their integrated line as it has been 4 years. We all work hard for our $ and deserve the best product for our cash outlay no matter what the brand name. I do have an affinity for NAD though I would like to audition the McCormack DNA 125 and the Bryston 3bsst. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 690 Registered: Apr-04 | Nick please don't take my word for what I have written only use your own judgment. You may not like them at all because your tastes are different than mine. I have no idea if a CA dealer is near your area! |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 165 Registered: Jun-07 | unbridled- The Bryson 3Bsst is awesome. The guys I got all my stuff from carry it. Danman- I do read very good things about CA so I just thought I would give it a listen to. Looks like Audio Shop in Ottawa has it. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 691 Registered: Apr-04 | I have heard good things about that store so you should be well taken care of. Yes the Bryston is amazing......I have also heard it! |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 109 Registered: Jul-07 | Nuck- Going back to that Outlaw Reciever I had a NAD receiver but the tuner went out so I traded it for the used ADS receiver. I was disapointed w/Cambridge Audio's lack of response when I wrote to them about my mechanically noisy Azure 640A cd player. Brand new at that price and sound quality should be quiet. Every other cdp I have had has been. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8188 Registered: Dec-04 | KC, as I understand the unit, it is a very good integrated with a free radio type of thing. It handles all speakers well(rated @4 ohms) and has a well regarded phono stage. Seperate bass management and dual pre-outs. A nice choice of features. And it is heavy. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2291 Registered: Sep-04 | Danman, Forgetting the actual discussion for a moment, I am interested in knowing why you wish to remain strictly in the mid-fi sector. After all, by your own admission, you have owned almost every model of NAD equipment in the last 20 years. Although I appreciate there is a sequence of constant innovation and improvement, surely you would have had better results and spent less in that time if you had shot for a higher level than the mid-fi sector? By your own admission, Bryston is to your taste. If it's more convincing, then perhaps it would have lasted longer and you'd have had more enjoyment - not saying you haven't enjoyed yourself, just that possibly you should be looking at something like Bryston instead of yet more mid-fi kit like CA or NAD... Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 692 Registered: Apr-04 | Good question Frank. I guess the best way to respond would be to say that I like changing things every few years and to be honest, I think my tastes for the high end sector would be very expensive as I have listened to many items claiming to be considered higher end and was not very impressed with the little difference for such a higher cost. The CA 840A was (to me) a considerable difference in sound in the mid-fi and I was quite impressed that it seemed (to me once again!) to sound cleaner than many of the items at 3 times the price. I am a huge fan of YBA but they are really expensive and I have yet to find something used that was in good shape. However, I am thinking of waiting a little longer and see what I can find. I am actually quite convinced that the new pre/power from CA will be quite interesting and am willing to wait and listen once it is available. As I said, if it is a step up from the 840A, than it will be pretty near to what I am looking for. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 693 Registered: Apr-04 | This interview may help explain as to why CA has V2's of their equipment. It is obviously a constant improvement over some of the technology they use. They announce it whereas I believe many companies do not. Read the interview, it may help those sceptics about the mid-fi sector being as powerful as it is. http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/assets/documents/Hi-FiChoiceJuly07MBlicensed.pdf |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 175 Registered: Jun-07 | I agree with Danman on the performance to price ratio these days on a lot of stuff. The days of paying the Ferrari price to get Ferrari performance is over. I have listened to products that cost three times as much as NAD or Rotel and give maybe 10 percent better performance. |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 115 Registered: Jul-07 | "...I am interested in knowing why you wish to remain strictly in the mid-fi sector. ..." Now I am asking myself the same thing. I guess that hits the nail on what I have been doing here, asking how close a cheap guy can get. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8193 Registered: Dec-04 | No way around that! Some very good mid-fi, and that ain't going away(thankfully). Outlaw is doing well also. In particular their pre-amps, the 970 and 990. For all that they do so well for under a grand, it's pretty cool. But dual Bryston mono blocks... |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 179 Registered: Jun-07 | lol No doubt Outlaw is kicking butt as well. It is funny that we consider Outlaw,NAD and Rotel Mid-Fi while 75 percent of the world population who consider it to be High End.lol. The dealer I got my stuff from are also a dealer of Bryston. He claims it is of course a better product then NAD. But 4 times the price better??ahh not so sure. He said he has actually prefered the C272 over some of the entry level 2 channel Bryston stuff. Then you read some of these reviews on 5 thousand dollar Krell DVD players. When put through the bench tests actually fall short compared to some 400 dollar DVD players out there. Funny, really makes you think how High End, some High End products really are.... |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 196 Registered: Mar-04 | Though I do want to audition pricier gear, the reality is my audio budget is limited. What I want is champagne on a beer budget. Can it be done, I think for the most part it can, by piecing together components that blend and bring out the best traits of each other. I think NAD amps pair well with NHT speakers. I believe that with a limited budget one should consider a passive pre-amp etc etc. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 694 Registered: Apr-04 | To be really honest........I am one of those that does not want to get caught up in the game of listening to how my equipment looks, sounds and costs instead of listening to the music! I know people that are like this and they own 50000$ sets and are more worried if their sound room echoes than having a cold one listening to something good! I really don't want to end up like that. I suppose I could afford a little more than what I got and move on up but I have to agree, paying 5000$ for a CD player to get an increase that is more measurable than audible is in my opinion not a good investment. If I spend 50000$ on my home I would expect an even higher return! This can be a very debatable topic but I will use my ears before wallet any day! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2296 Registered: Sep-04 | I am a very big advocate of people using their ears. I just wondered if, considering how many models you've been through, it might have been more economic to take a bigger step at some stage in all the changes. There are loads of people I ahve met who are perfectly satisfied with their mid-fi gear. Many come in after 10 or 20 years to tell me their NAD 3020 has died or been given to/stolen by the not-so-young ones, and they'll happily buy themselves the modern equivalent (C325BEE for example) and go for another 20 years before considering a change. That's fine. But you have been changing consistently every few years which makes me wonder whether you've ever actually been happy with what you have. If you're perennially searching for mid-fi sector kit to give you something more than it can, gaining small improvements which may impress in the short term, but not enough to give long term satisfaction. That does tend to be the purview of the higher end stuff. As you rightly point out high end stuff is also capable of not being to your taste. In some ways the higher end stuff can exhibit the differences even more sharply, so one hopes that you can more accurately find that which you truly want from a system. Just some thoughts... Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2034 Registered: May-05 | "He said he has actually prefered the C272 over some of the entry level 2 channel Bryston stuff." Nick, Everyone's got their preferences, and its usually pointless to argue taste. However, personally owning Bryston's entry level integrated, having lived with NAD for many years, and hearing the 162/272 combo more times than I can count, I can tell you they sound nothing alike. The Bryston blows the doors off of it. The only thing the 162/272 has on my B60 is power. Other than that, there's nothing the NAD can do that the Bryston doesn't do better. And that comparison doesn't get into the entry level Bryston seperates. If the Bryston didn't blow the doors off the NAD, then there was a problem somewhere in the system - source wasn't good enough, speakers, room acoustics, etc. Also keep in mind that performance isn't the be all, end all of how much a product should cost. Compare a $10k Hyundai to a $100k Ferarri. Is the Ferarri 10 times faster? No. NAD is made in an Asian factory by people making an insanely low wage with little or no benefits. Bryston is made in a Canadian factory by people making an honest living wage and benefits. A lot of NADs parts are sourced from places making them for far cheaper than NAD could make them for. Bryston makes as much as possible themselves. NAD has a 3 year warantee (maybe 5, but I don't think so). This is only good for the original buyer. Bryston has a 20 year transferrable warantee. In 8 years, if something goes wrong, what are the chances NAD will be able to fix it due to parts being obsolete? Even if they could, would they? In 30 years, its a pretty good bet that Bryston will still be able to fix your gear and bring it back up to orignal specs or better. Bryston isn't the only one that works this way. McIntosh, Naim, Classe, and a host of others are too. The warantee may not be as long, but the products are just as dependable, and the companies' support are just as good. Combine all that with a great sounding product, and you can see why $3000 for a McIntosh MA6300 integrated amp is a great value. While there are a lot of idiots out there with more sense than money, the real reason why the higher end companies can sell their gear for the prices they do is because a lot of people take the time to listen to and research what they're buying. Companies like Mac and Bryston get very few impulsive buyers that haven't done their homework. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 197 Registered: Jun-07 | Stu - I wasn't saying NAD is better than Bryston in any way. Im just saying the guy had a setup of three 2 channel power amps(only power amps). One was the NAD, one was the Rotel, and one was the Bryston. And he said he was surprised that he actually prefered the NAD amp in that setup. IN THAT SETUP. Overall the guy is obsessed with Bryston. I was just using that as an example that sometimes more money doesn't always mean better performance in every case. In the short of things Bryston kicks NADS butt in pretty much every aspect of audio. That includes where it is built,build quality,warranty,and of course sound quality. I know this. Im 25 years old, and perhaps after Im married, buy the new House, finish paying student loans,I will work on a 2 channel system that consists of some sweet bryston stuff. Cheers. |
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New member Username: SanioSouth Wester... Canada Post Number: 6 Registered: Jul-07 | Nick... I agree the degree of improvements while you shift from mid to high-end systems diminishes as you move further up the chain ie. "The Law of Diminishing Returns". But, there are improvements to be had in fidelity, musicality and presentation if you are interested in pursuing them. In my mind that is why I love this hobby so much, because it forces me to evolve and develop over time. I (like you) have a limited budget for audio equipment, but believe that I can build and evolve my system incrementally, tweaking and tuning as the opportunities arise. The idea that you would circle in the same technological pond not testing new waters or making overall improvements does not make intuitive sense to me. The improvements in most systems over a certain level are all in the details. I would also tend to believe you are likely to spend more with no gains. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 695 Registered: Apr-04 | Frank........as always, you are right. I guess I just like getting newer stuff and I have never really lost a lot of money in my sales or returns as I am one of those guys that takes such good care of his stuff it is crazy! However, I have been thinking of the YBA Integrated even though it may be only 50 watts per channel, it is so musical, it is amazing. Even NAIM is in my sites as well. I really like the NAD sound however and can honestly say to you that I have always enjoyed the sound of every system I have owned by them but with my new Focal speakers, I know I could really benefit from a higher upgrade. I am thinking seriously about this and my purchase date is within the next 6 months. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 199 Registered: Jun-07 | John- I agree. I have full plans on upgrading one piece of equipment at a time in the future. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound I have now, but know there is always better. My next upgrade for audio will be a Turntable/Phono amp and a better cd player. The cd player will not be a NAD but something from Arcam or Rega. Turntable will be the new NAD(rega rebadged). There will be a large video upgrade as well but in this thread I wont get into that. John I understand what your saying, I have listened to many audio setups, but mainly stuff that is in the same level as NAD, like Rotel, Integra and what not. In order for me to feel I actually have upgraded I will probably have to go to Arcam, Bryston, Rega and such. Although a guy at Just Hi Fi here in my home town gave me this big Arcam/Tannoy demo, and I wasn't overly impressed. Perhaps Classe EH Nuck. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8213 Registered: Dec-04 | Perhaps, Nick, but thats a pretty big pond to toss a stone into. There are so many rock solid manufacturers in this field, once the lower price limit has been lifted a bit.It would take literally a year to give fair listening time to them all. I toss Classe out there once in a while because I know them pretty well, and the brand is overlooked sometimes, unfortunately. Like many others, Classe has built a great deal of brand loyalty(as seen here). This means that the dude with the bucks is going to buy newer stuff often, and his used stuff is going on display in a hi-fi shop somewhere. I like these shops. Excellent kits can be had very affordably, if hard shopping(as opposed to bargaining) and luck are involved. When I bought my final stereo, the guy let me have it for a month+ to sort it out. Plus another amp to compare for 2 weeks. Any of the mentioned brands can play very well, but a weekend ain't gonna prove it.An afternoon session maybe less so. Its all about the music and the dealer at buying time. Well, all the time |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 206 Registered: Jun-07 | Nuck-I agree. Cheers. |
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New member Username: SanioSouth Wester... Canada Post Number: 7 Registered: Jul-07 | Definitely, The DWTBB (Dude with the big bucks) is my favourite dude.... I think aside from my speakers/cabling there is nothing that I have now that was not "previously enjoyed" The first place I go to in an Audio Shop is the Used... The bargains to be had are a sometimes outrageous and as a plus you get to look at some cool vintage stuff. I even cruise the high-end pawn shops. Last time I was in Toronro I saw a Krell X series Amp for $1100.00.... No that is not a joke... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8228 Registered: Dec-04 | John, have you been to Alternative Audio in Dundas? Thats where I was treated so very well. www.alternativeaudio.ca |
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New member Username: SanioSouth Wester... Canada Post Number: 9 Registered: Jul-07 | Nuck I have just been reading about them... I plan on going there this weekend on my way to the Festival of Friends... I hear very good things... |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 211 Registered: Jun-07 | Nuck- I just checked out their site. Very nice place, very nice stuff. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 560 Registered: Jan-05 | Has anyone had the chance to compare CA's V1 and V2 amps? The V1s didnt review aswell as the V2 but I do wonder if that's down to how aware the public was. I have the V1 540a azur and dont have any intention of changing it now I've finally got my system how I like it. Im curious because of the earlier mention to 'upgrading' actually being a downgrade and as soon as I bought my v1 540a, the v2s came out! JJ |
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New member Username: TcchPost Number: 1 Registered: Aug-07 | I looked at CA 840A specifications and noticed signal/noise ratio 83dB, which seems to be quite high for a solid-state amp. Is this a drawback of XD class - or will this be improved in V2? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8240 Registered: Dec-04 | tcch, welcome to the forum. Were those numbers noted as weighted? |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 610 Registered: May-06 | Stu, Excellent post on the cost of quality not only in build, but if I may add, in sound too. John, I too buy primarily demo or used from a reputable dealer. I just picked up a McIntosh MC-7300 on Audiogon. It took a number of hours over the past few days but I have finally have it all dialed in. I had to modify my speaker wire runs as this baby changed the requirements of how I was going to deliver its offerings to the speakers. I got it down now. I agree with tweaks, Frank gave me a wonderful free upgrade by recommending unplugging my amps from my power conditioners and going straight into the wall outlets. Jan has been tremendous in assisting me in everything from building ICs and speaker wire, to proper speaker placement, isolation, and room acoustics. Not to mention convincing me that my Carver really did have shortcomings which, well I would have bet a lot against the truth of that. That in short is why I now have my MAC. Other than an outboard motor for my Linn some day and messing with room acoustics I cannot see me doing anything else than servicing what I have and truly enjoying the most wonderful sound I have ever experienced for the next several years, maybe decades. I fully understand diminishing returns and even if I won the lottery I doubt I would commit more money to my system as it is already beyond my expectations. |
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New member Username: TcchPost Number: 2 Registered: Aug-07 | Nuck, I don't think the specifications for 840A are as explicit to state if S/N is A-weighted or not, but they are ref 1W/8 Ohm. The comparison with other CA models (which are not XD class) suggests that the noise of 840A is considerably higher: e.g. 740A - 96dB, 840A - 83dB. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 561 Registered: Jan-05 | Michael, talking of tweaks I also think it was Frank who suggested a tweak to me. I disregarded it for ages because it sounded fidly, until about a week ago. I am astounded by how degrading to sound quality the jumper plates on speakers are that link up the binding posts. Whether it was gold or brass plated, I removed all four and replaced with some copper wire. I wasnt expecting much, but its almost like I've a completely different set of speakers. I'd reccommend the tweak. |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 139 Registered: Jul-07 | "...I removed all four and replaced with some copper wire.." So that is another reason that the "bi wiring" works. This was discussed here. I asked and went ahead and removed the posts on both my Quad11L and Castle Severn. Instead of replacing the jumper rods with wire, I used wire back to the integrated amps. Sounds good. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8253 Registered: Dec-04 | KC, I got that from Frank a few years ago, and have expounded it ever since. So simple. Did it with Stryvn's Paradigm 60 v3's last week and I think theres a difference. Is there, Stryvn? Anyhow, the wiring could make a big difference or none at all, depending on expectations. Like plugging the amp into a seperate circuit and out of a conditioner. When I replaced the jumpers, I got all smiley. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8254 Registered: Dec-04 | When I pulled another circuit, I got smilierer. It's a word today. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 226 Registered: Jun-07 | My Studio monitors Tri Wireable/Tri Amp, I too when told by my local NAD dealer to take the plates off and Tri-Wire them thought it wouldn't make a big difference. I was wrong, I Tri-Wired them and there was clear difference. |
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Bronze Member Username: SanioSouth Wester... Canada Post Number: 20 Registered: Jul-07 | I Bi-wire and Bi-amp and I gotta tellya I think the difference is unbelievable. Clear sharp, soundstage is brilliant... I am a convert... Now if I could just tri-wire and tri-amp I think I would be done.... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8259 Registered: Dec-04 | John, think active crossovers. |
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Bronze Member Username: SanioSouth Wester... Canada Post Number: 21 Registered: Jul-07 | Nuck Are you talk'n removing the posts and wiring directly to the Speakers from the amp???? |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 563 Registered: Jan-05 | Nuck, whats an active crossover? JJ |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8265 Registered: Dec-04 | Guys, an active XO replaces the passive(and icky) XO of the speaker. Multi amping is required, and the results are varied. This is band equipment 101, and some of the reason that Bands sound so good. http://sound.westhost.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm |
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Bronze Member Username: Db_audiofileLa habra, Ca Usa Post Number: 29 Registered: Aug-07 | John, I Bi-wire my Martin Logans. A lot cleaner. Db |
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Bronze Member Username: Db_audiofileLa habra, Ca Usa Post Number: 30 Registered: Aug-07 | Sirs, As far as Nad. All companies have product life cycles and road maps. To say one is really better than another depends on several things. The most important is that at this level it is all good. Just different. Remenber that we are talking about RE-PRORDUCTION and not production. Most likly you are both right depending on what you are listening to. your friend, Db |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 283 Registered: Jun-07 | JAW just posted this over at the receiver forum. http://www.electronichouse.com/article/lend_nad_your_keen_ear_four_music_first_r eceivers_on_the_way/C157 |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 284 Registered: Jun-07 | NAD is adding HDMI, Ipod connections. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8445 Registered: Dec-04 | What show was this introduced at, first time hearing about the launch. A five channel receiver. I would put up the power and clarity of my Rotel rmb985 over the power section of that amp. But that's just me |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8447 Registered: Dec-04 | stirs the pot... |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 286 Registered: Jun-07 | I would take that Rotel Power Amp for a power source over any receiver as well.lol. That new T785 though looks mean. Real mean. I would be interested in adding two more C272's and that new Pre, ahh the 175 I think its called. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8448 Registered: Dec-04 | If that Nad series is as Quiet as it should be, it might be a smasher. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 287 Registered: Jun-07 | Nuck- it looks like they have lowered the power ratings. The 775 is 80 x 7, where the 773 was 110. Now the 785 is the 110 x 7 model. hmmm I want to bring the 785 home and see if they are any better or worse. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 288 Registered: Jun-07 | Nuck- Sorry, was posting same time you were. I agree. Lets hope it actually is. Lets hope they don't mess with the same old NAD sound by putting too much stuff in them. When I got my boss his T744 I hooked it up on top of my T763 with just the cd player and C272 power amp to it so I wouldnt notice a power difference. Sure enough they sounded pretty much the same. I hope the T785 sounds as good if not better. I still want that pre though. Dont think my next upgrade will consist of a receiver. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8449 Registered: Dec-04 | Nick, if you get a receiver we will cut you off. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 289 Registered: Jun-07 | lol indeed. NAD's integrated amps, to me, don't sound a whole lot better than their receivers for two channel music. If at all. But its a pre for me next. This will be purchased real soon though: http://nadelectronics.com/products/turntables |
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New member Username: AhantzaPost Number: 3 Registered: Nov-07 | Hi, guys. I would like to have your suggestions. I have recently bought a pair of Paradigm Studio 60 v3 speakers and I am in the process of selecting the amp. Any ideas on what's best to choose among Cambridge Audio CA-640A v2, NAD C352, Denon PMA-1500AE, or Marantz PM-7001?? Music preference is jazz, rock and their fusion. Any words of wisdom would be extremely appreciated. |
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Bronze Member Username: Db_audiofileLa habra, Ca Usa Post Number: 69 Registered: Aug-07 | Dear Tassos, There quite a few NAD lovers on this site. I for one not a fan of CA. Yes, I have heard them. I like most people on this site would ask you about your listing situation. Off the cuff, The Nad Is a fine unit (I do not own one)I like denon for the money but it a step back from NAD. Any company worth a salt will allow you bring in your speakers and give them a whirl. Good luck! your friend, Db |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 689 Registered: Jun-07 | Tassos, I agree with Don, also check out the Rega Brio too. |
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Silver Member Username: Ustaad_hcPost Number: 352 Registered: Oct-06 | right... |
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New member Username: AhantzaPost Number: 6 Registered: Nov-07 | Thank you all. Nick, I feel that the Rega Brio, as a typical English amp, is too mellow for my ears. It's a bit "anemic" for my music preferences, plus it's weaker than the rest of the company. I think I'll go for the NAD. Should I worry that they are now China-made? |
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Bronze Member Username: Db_audiofileLa habra, Ca Usa Post Number: 70 Registered: Aug-07 | Tassos, I deal with Chineese makers every day. Yes you should worry. On the other hand, if it isn't made in China it soon will be. Every compamy that has switched to chineese manufacturing has had conversion problems. Marrantz, Sony, Monster Cable etc. It is just to tough to beat 50 cent labor. Note two: If you think that British amps are to mellow for you, you might look at Rotel. There will be a better edge but you will lose detail. In the long run I think you will be unhappy. Nick, way in on this. good luck, your friend, Db |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 691 Registered: Jun-07 | I agree with Don, The British stuff, including Rega does not sound too mellow to my ears. But to each their own. The Rotel will be forward, but as Don said, you lose detail compared to the Rega. The NAD will be a fine amp. I hope you enjoy it. |
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New member Username: AhantzaPost Number: 7 Registered: Nov-07 | Thanks, again, both of you. I will let you know of the end-result. |
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Silver Member Username: DanmanQUEBEC CANADA Post Number: 699 Registered: Apr-04 | I can tell you has an owner of both CA and NAD that anyone having reservations about CA are wrong! After recently purchasing the 840A and 840C I can tell you this combo was way ahead of my NAD C162/C272. Just the CD player in itself is amazing. I still use one of my C272 for bi-amping the woofers as my speakers seem to like this better and the 272 is really good for this. Both companies have incredible value but after 20 years of using mostly NAD gear, I can honestly say that the CA gear of recent is creating a major stir! |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 287 Registered: Jul-07 | "...Should I worry that they are now China-made?..." Most are except the high end. Right? According to Absolute Sound Mag it is the reason we have great gear at affordable prices. I am not going to get into a economic-political discussion here. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9138 Registered: Dec-04 | Without getting into Absolute Sound mag, which is printed in Indonesia, ... High quality stuff comes from everywhere. That my prefrence is NA means little. |
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Bronze Member Username: Db_audiofileLa habra, Ca Usa Post Number: 71 Registered: Aug-07 | Kevin and friends, As I have said, Chinese made goods on the first generation are not as well made as to follow other countries. I thing what I would do is compare the older orginal model with a recent one from China. See if the craftmanship is the same. Unless you have total control of source components you will have some differences. That does not mean that they have not taken steps to prevent this from happening. Please ck it out. I deal with Chinese companies every day and I understand thier mental make up. Some companies (Grado) produce thier low end in China, But they control the source components. Pop the top as we use to do in the old days and tell me what you see. your friend, Db |
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