Cartridge for Pro-Ject 1Xpression?
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1978 Registered: May-05 | I'm getting tired of my current cartridge, and don't know which way to go. Its the stock Sumiko Oyster that came with the table. The only dealer that I feel 100% confident in regarding this is closed for a weeks, perhaps two months or so due to remodeling/renovating. But, they really don't have much at all in my price range. The least expensive cart they sell is the Dynavector 10x5, for $380. Not that that's completely out of my range, but anything else they have will be. Why I don't like the Oyster - It sounds muddy and muffled. Its got some decent dynamics and conveys the vinyl message, but thats about it. What I'm looking for - PRaT, dynamics, neutrality, tonal accuracy. Mainly a well balanced cart that times very well. My vinyl almost exclusively consists of classic and modern rock. I don't need mono nor 78. I'm also not sure what specs I should be looking at, and how to tell if what I've got table and pre-amp wise will work. Here's my phono stage's specs - THD+N: <0.005%, IM or THD, any frequency or combination of frequencies from 20-20kHz, at rated output or below. NOISE: Phono: -80dBA referred to an input of 5 mV RIAA ACCURACY: Within less than +/- 0.05dB from 20~20kHz SENSITIVITY: 5mV Is the only one I need to be concerned with here the sensitivity? Some of the Xpression's specs - Speed Variance ±0.5% Wow & Flutter ±0.1% Signal to Noise -70dB Downforce Range 10-30mN Effective Tonearm Length 8.6 inches Overhang 18.5mm My system - Pro-Ject 1Xpression w/ Speed Box Bryston B60RP PSB Image T55 I'll spend up to $400 if it'll be worth while to spend it. But at the same time, I don't want to spend that if my table isn't up to a $400 cartridge's standands. I'd audition as many as I could if it were possible. Their aren't very many dealers with a big selection of tables and cartridges to demo. Most will order and fit a cart, but typically have one or two lines at best. I'm assuming I should be looking for MM carts, but what about high output MC? I also see some Goldrings that have a 6.5mV output, would this be too much? From my tastes and preferences, any particular brands I should look into? Stay away from? I trust most of you know me well enough to comfortably point me toward a line or two. I guess I'm mainly trying to learn how to shop for a cartridge (ie. matching cart to arm, pre-amp, etc.) before I start deciding between individual ones. Thanks guys. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1979 Registered: May-05 | Just to add - If I could I would consult the dealer who sold me the table, which was a very knowledgable person, but he has unfortunately gone out of business. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10892 Registered: May-04 | . Staying with a MM or H.O.MC, yep, all you need to worry about is the sensitivity unless you find a cheap cartidge with one heck of a high oputput. Matching to the tonearm will be more important but this shouldn't be difficult either. The Clearaudio will be cleaner, though at this price the top end will always be slightly less than great. http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CLEMAURUMCW The Benz tracks very well and unravels most passages. http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BENZMCSIL The grado still has the best midrange, tracks well and is never offensive. http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=GRADOREFPLA For classic rock, the Linn is a good choice. http://www.soundstage.com/vinyl/vinyl200304.htm Like the grado, you can't not like the budget Ortofons. http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-Salsa-Low-Output-MC-Phono-Cartridge?sc=2&cat egory=402 The AT is a long time sleeper. Nobody expects this much at this price. http://www.needledoctor.com/Audio-Technica-OC9-Cartridge?sc=2&category=363 I've got a ten year old, NIB Grado you're welcome to try. I think it was about a $300-350 cartridge back then, second from the top of the line at the time. The new Grados sound better but not at the price. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10893 Registered: May-04 | . I take that back, let me check on the Grado. I may have given that one away. If you're interested, I'll dig through the boxes. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5109 Registered: Feb-05 | I was going to try the Dynavector 10x5 with that table and still think it is the one to beat. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1980 Registered: May-05 | Thanks guys. If the Linn and Dynavector will hypothetically match up well with my table, I'll hold off until my dealer re-opens. I'd rather patronize a trusted and respected local dealer than order something on-line. Not that I'll feel obligated if I don't like what they have. Maybe I missed it or misunderstood, but will a cart with 6.5mV output (such as the Linn Adikt) be OK with my phono stage? It won't overload (or whatever the technical term is) it? Jan, Thanks for the offer. I'd take you up on it, but I'm not comfortable borrowing something I can't replace. I've never installed a cartridge before, and with my luck would destroy it. I also have no idea how a dealer would replace it if he/she broke it. When I decide on what I want, I'll have the dealer install it if he/she's local. If I have to order, I'll ask a trusted dealer to install it (for a fee of course). Thanks for the information. I didn't realize the Linn cart was in my price range. I have a great local Linn/Naim/Rega dealer. They're the ones who are remodeling. They basically build systems around turntables, so they should have some very good insight. They're also the Dynavector dealer. I also had my eye on the rest of the carts you mention, but I don't know how well they'll pair up with my table and tonearm. Is their any theoretical/mathmatical way of knowing this? Art, The 10x5 was my first instinct, but again, I have no idea how it'll match up with my table. The only time I've heard it was in the same system as yours. If it'll work well with my table, this is most likely the direction I'll go. Not to get too far ahead of myself, but I'm 99% sure my next table will be a P5. That's probably a little ways off though. Frank, Hopefully you've stumbled onto this thread. I believe you sold or still sell this table. Have you tried any of these or other carts with it? Any insight? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10894 Registered: May-04 | . "Maybe I missed it or misunderstood, but will a cart with 6.5mV output (such as the Linn Adikt) be OK with my phono stage?" Your phono stage doesn't specify an overload voltage so it is difficult to know whether a 6.5mV input would cause a problem. Most likely it will not. It will probably mean you run the volume control at a much lower position than you do with your present cartridge. Sometimes that can be a problem if you do not have the ability to make rather fine adjustments to the level. A lower input voltage will give you a broader sweep on the control to make finer adjustments. Installing a cartridge is much easier than most people think. If your tonearm is a medium mass design, which most are today, you should be fine with any of the medium compliance, medium mass cartridges offered. Anything you've mentioned should do OK. The Dynavector is a good cartridge. With classic rock, it should be a good choice. If your tastes broaden, I would opt for another cartridge. . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1981 Registered: May-05 | Thanks again for the information Jan. Everything you've stated makes perfect sense. My volume control is pretty good in the sense that I can make very fine adjustments, and the usable range is the entire 300 degrees or so. In contrast, my 320BEE's usable range was from about 7:00 to about 10:00. "Installing a cartridge is much easier than most people think." I didn't think it was overly complicated or way over my head, but I've never personally replaced one nor seen it done in many years. I remember my father doing it when I was a kid, but I didn't pay much attention. I've heard of people ruining/breaking cartridges, and don't want to be that guy. I figure I'll watch my dealer install it and ask him to explain what he's doing. He's pretty good about things like that. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1982 Registered: May-05 | Anyone have an opinion/experience with the Sumiko Blue Point Special No. 2 or Evo III? I know they've gotten some bad press in the past, but have heard they've improved a lot with the latest revisions. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5110 Registered: Feb-05 | The Dynavector is a good cartridge with all types of music. I listened to about 30 classical records last week and it sounded fantastic. The Blue Point is a decent rock cartridge but a bit rough around the edges for classical and jazz. I would still prefer the Dyn by a long shot. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2284 Registered: Sep-04 | Stu, Sorry, not tried many cartridges on the 1Xpression. I had good results with the Ortofon 500 series but they've gone now. Since your phono stage appears to be a MM stage, I would discount Jan's suggestion of the Ortofon Salsa since that (along with the Samba and Tango) is a low output moving coil. Shame really - nice cartridge. At this price bracket, the Dynavector would be my choice but since I haven't tried it in an 1Xpression I can't guarantee results. Generally, the Dynavector works well in all the decks I've tried but you never know! I'm not a fan of the Sumiko. Although in some ways a technically brilliant performer, I find it a bit bright and tiring to listen to. For lower priced alternatives, the new Ortofon m2 cartridges are good value as are the new Goldring 2000 series cartridges. Another cartridge I really like is the Grado Prestige Gold, as well as the Reference Platinum for more money. Regards, Frank. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10896 Registered: May-04 | . Sorry, I didn't notice the notation that the Ortofon I linked to was a low output. I'm a bit confused by the Orotofon line up right now as they have apparently discontinued the VMS line and not made a directly replacement from what I can see. And their European distribution seems different from their North American product line. However, if there is a midpriced, high output Ortofon other than the OM series, they would be a recommended cartridge IMO. The OM line was designed for the low mass arms of the '80's and is not satisfactorty for use other than as a give away with the purchase of a table. I like the Grado's overall by comparison, but should a Grado not work in a particular table due to hum, the Ortofons are a very decent substitute with similar overall characteristics. Both Ortofon and Grado employ an induced, or moving iron, principle rather than a conventional moving magnet structure. (AT uses a variation of this design technique, splitting the irons into two separate legs positioned in a "V" shaped structure.) An induced cartridge is generally considered to offer a nice mix of sound qualities combining much of what is heard from mc's with the solidity of image that is typical of mm designs. . . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10897 Registered: May-04 | . SP - Does the Project arm have any provision for adjusting VTA or arm height? Some of what you are describing as dissatisfaction comes from a somewhat budget cartridge I assume but could also be the result of incorrect tracking angle. It would be a bit of a shame to buy a new cartridge that also placed the stylus at the wrong angle. While not overly critical on a budget table, dialing in the correct angle can make a discernable difference in sound quality on most decks. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5115 Registered: Feb-05 | "Does the Project arm have any provision for adjusting VTA or arm height?" It does. The Oyster however is just a bad cartridge. I immediately switched to a budget Grado with my 1Xpression. Never hurts to try adjusting, may make somewhat of an improvement however I think you'll still be hankerin' for a better cartridge. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1985 Registered: May-05 | To the best of my knowledge, everything is set up correctly. My dealer double checked everything and made some adjustments when I bought it. Some adjustments could have slightly changed over the last 2 years through normal playback, but it doesn't sound much different if at all than after the cart fully broke in. As Art said, its just a bad cartridge. It retails for $55 if bought seperately, and is about what to expect for $55 IMO. Thanks again everyone. The information is invaluable. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1441 Registered: Nov-05 | http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/index.htm Stu, the above business specialises in turntables, cartridges etc. Have a look. Also check the special price combinations. BTW, Garrot Bros carts have built a heck of a rep among the 'philes over here. My brother recently got their P77 micro tracer cart (now being discontinued) for his Linn T/T. I add this info and link merely for your interest, but you may find the guy helpful for your problem if you think it's worth contacting him. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2286 Registered: Sep-04 | Hmmm, I think the OMs are still around ...sadly! FYI, Ortofon's replacement for the 500 series is the 2m series which comprises only 2 cartridges at the moment (eventually to grow to 4 though). I do not know if they have interchangeable styli as the 500 series did. I hit a problem with one of these recently. They have a big cartridge body and I couldn't fit them (or the Goldring 2000) into a Linn Basik arm. Anyway, I digress, anything above the 2m is low output moving coil. There's the new Samba, Tango and Salsa (between $200 and $400 or so), the new Rondo range (between $500 and about $1000 depending on exchange rates), the Kontrapunkt range (between $1000 and $2000), and then there are a few sundry higher end cartridges that aren't in ranges per se. Regards, Frank. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10907 Registered: May-04 | . Hmmmmmmmmm ... Kontrapunkt. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2287 Registered: Sep-04 | The Kontrapunkt range is probably the most confusing. The entry level is the 'A' (£500) which is OK but no great shakes really. It sounds a bit soft to me and I don't think it's particularly good value for money. The 'B' (£750) has the ability to sound awful but also spellbinding depending on the kit around it. In an LP12 with naim ARO tonearm pointing at a Tom Evans Groove it sounds spellbinding. With the same deck but, say, a lower level phono stage, it starts to sound bright and hard. But in the higher end system it's quite compelling with unbelievably good timing and clean tight fast bass. The C (£900) is the most expensive. In many ways I prefer the B. the C is more forgiving of ancillaries, but it is a bit slower and a bit more considered in its delivery. Some people might prefer this as it comes across as a richer presentation, but for me it misses the mark. The most confusing is the H. This is the same price as the B but uses the aluminium pipe cantilever instead of the B's ruby cantilever. The H is again more forgiving, but to me it just sounded 'off', never quite hitting the mark, although perfectly acceptable to many people I would guess. The Kontrapunkts are all based on the Jubilee which I find quite remarkable since I find the Jubilee to be the least interesting of Ortofon's cartridges. It is quite different in character and really misses the mark in terms of pace rhythm and timing - their most boring cartridge in my view. The Kontrapunkt was a hell of a surprise after that I can tell you! Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1998 Registered: May-05 | Got a hold of my dealer over the weekend. One of the countless reasons why they're great - They offered for me to bring in my table and amp, and will set up a few different carts. Linn, Dynavector, Goldring, and Grado. The only cart they don't have in stock at the moment is the Dynavector 10x5, but they just put in an order and will let me know when they come in. When it comes in, I'll make an appointment. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8127 Registered: Dec-04 | Gee why not just order over the net and save a few bucks, eh? Sounds great, Stu. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5127 Registered: Feb-05 | Excellent Stu! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10952 Registered: May-04 | . Yeah, I'd have a lowball price from some scumbag dealing out of his car in NovaScotia who doesn't even stock the line and isn't an authorized dealer when I went into the store. Let the dealer knock himself out doing the demo for a few hours and then hit him with the bogus price. Once he gets flustered that anybody could be such an a**hole, start to grind him down on the demo piece he took out of the box so you could listen. That'll teach him the meaning of service! . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8130 Registered: Dec-04 | Thats the way, Jan. Too many dealers still in business anyhow. WalMart or BB/CC.Thats the way to save $. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10955 Registered: May-04 | . Awwwww, Nuck, if only I didn't draw from personal experience it would be funny. Meanwhile, where's that jerk "M bolkini" who started that "The Agony of Roksan Caspian" thread? We need to go beat the crap out of that S.O.B. Ya'know, red wIe can be very libeRATING. dand! I've prooofre ad tghis thui g a dozenmtimes and its stil;l fixuckwed up!!! . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2002 Registered: May-05 | Great posts. My dealer actually initially offered to come to my house with the carts for the demo. I told him if I was buying a $5000 cart I'd take him up on it, but I've got no problem bringing my stuff to him. Also, all the carts, minus the Dynavector(s) they're ordering are all broke in demo carts. As I said earlier, they build systems around turntables. Then again, maybe I should make them take a few hours out of their day to do a proper demo and order from some clown just to save $20. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8135 Registered: Dec-04 | Let's copy a link to this post for all the el-cheapos out there that espouse ebuying. Again, a lot of folks are blind to the quality that a good dealer can present to a client, and too many potential clients are just buyers elsewhere. This thread might, just might, convince some listeners to visit a proper shop and see what a real retailer can do for you. If you are cheap, go somewhere else. If you want proper service and quality advise for your had earned audio money, GO SEE A REAL DEALER! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10962 Registered: May-04 | . Have the dealer come over with his wares and order a couple four pizzas. When they arrive hand the dealer the bill for feeding him - and you. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2003 Registered: May-05 | Thanks Jan. You don't know how much I needed that. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2047 Registered: May-05 | Just pryed myself away from my TT to eat dinner and post this - Dynavector 10x5. Hands down. The Linn Adikt was a distant second, but had a little too much bass. For recordings that are a little thin on the bass, this could work out perfectly. For recordings that have fast and full bass, its a little too much. Particularly, Nirvana's In Bloom from Nevermind tripped up the bass a little bit. The Grado Reference Platinum sounded very good, but didn't have the Dynavector's PRaT and something else I'm not quite sure of. Had it not hummed, it most likely would have beaten out the Adikt. Not to sound the wrong way, but I didn't bother with the Goldring. My mind was made up by this point. The first thing the dealer did was check the old cart. Everything was set up properly. Then we listened on his bench test system in the workshop area - an older Linn integrated and Linn Kans. He uses it in a very nearfield set up. That close up, its brutally revealing. About 10 seconds into his reference album, he said "your stylus is shot." It was very silibant, the mids were muddy, and everything just sounded thrown together. After he took it off, he looked at it under a magnifying glass. The stylus wasn't that worn, the cartridge was just that afwul. He laughingly said it could have been one of the worst cartridges he's ever heard. After aligning each cart, we took the table to a demo room and listened through my amp and Rega R5s with a few of my albums. While it wasn't as up close and personal as the workshop, it was better in the sense that the system had room to breath and wasn't shouting every shortcomming of any piece in the chain at you. While the 10x5 didn't mop the floor with everything else, it still pretty much cleaned house. A few side notes - the cartridge is everyone's favorite there, at that price point and up a few levels. The dealer said its a shame that the overwhelming majority of the people that buy an Xpression don't upgrade cartridge. The table and tonearm are capable of so much more than the crap Pro-Ject put on it. These were the highest end cartridges he's put on an Xpression, and the table didn't get outclassed at all. Obviously a better table would be better, but the Xpression wasn't embarrased for a second. As for the value of a good dealer, do I really need to say anything else? Do you think I had the balls to ask for a discount? Quite honestly, was all this really worth his time financially? Thanks again for the help guys. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5195 Registered: Feb-05 | FANTASTIC STU!!!. I would love to hear that combo. Good going and now......baaaack to your music! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11072 Registered: May-04 | . Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did he pay for the pizza? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5198 Registered: Feb-05 | Lol...I think Stu has retired to the listening chair! |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 624 Registered: May-06 | Stu, Nice post sir. A good dealer knows that he has to service his customers, whether be it auditioning carts, answering questions over the phone, etc. A good Customer knows he has to be equally as committed to his dealer. First and foremost is having a dealer whom you have trust in, and that knows your habits and wants . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2058 Registered: May-05 | "A good Customer knows he has to be equally as committed to his dealer." Three people cam in that day needing carts aligned. Funny thing is they all bought the carts and tables elsewhere, like on-line, and gave up and brought them to my dealer. My dealer laughingly told me that when this is the case, they charge $100 minimum to set everything up. One of the clowns was a regular customer. He wanted to save a few bucks and bought a Pro-Ject Debut from the Needle Doctor rather than a P1 from my dealer. He saved $30 buying the Debut and an upgraded cartridge combo on-line. He brought it to my dealer and couldn't figure out why they were going to charge him $100 to install the cart. Dealer's answer - "You want it done right, or do you want to save $20 and have the clown down the road do what he did last time?" I asked "What's wrong with these people?" Reply "I don't think they have a clue how stupid they really are." |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2059 Registered: May-05 | No pizza, Jan. But they have a decent complimentary beverage selection. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11087 Registered: May-04 | . No pizza, no tiramisu I suppose. Lousy dealer. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2060 Registered: May-05 | No tiramisu. Then again, they're British. Tea, but no crumpets. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2307 Registered: Sep-04 | Guys, please stop, you're killing me... Stu, nice to see you're not deaf and prefer the 10x5!  I have to say, that was a very interesting story. I'm not sure if we charge anything to sort out cartridge alignment, perhaps £10 or something. I agree with your dealer that the cartridges the 1Xpression is landed with by default is <ahem> a mess. I don't know that I'd necessarily go as far as a 10x5 on that deck. A 10x5 is pretty much the maximum on a P3, so perhaps so. FWIW, we use 10x5s as our demonstration cartridge of choice on anything from a P3 upwards. It's good enough to show people what the deck is capable of without holding back the higher end decks too much. You should have seen the shock on a couple's faces recently when I went from a P5 to a Gyrodec/tecnoarm, both using the 10x5. That was fun...cruel, but fun! The 10x5 takes between 50 and 100 hours to run in completely but it's pretty good out of the box. Regards, Frank. |
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