High end issue
|
New member Username: HawkbillyPost Number: 1 Registered: Jul-07 | Hi all. I'm new to the board, and am looking for some help diagnosing a bit of an annoyance with my current audio setup. I have a NAD T743 receiver, NAD 541i cd player, and a pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170's. For the most part, given the relatively modest investment, I really enjoy my system. Recently I reconfigured the living room a tad to accommodate a new 42" Olevia HDTV (I'm still hearing about it from my wife) and what was a minor annoyance seems to have been somewhat amplified. On certain CD's, I'm finding the high end to be rather harsh and definitely fatigueing. A good example is Chris Botti's When I fall in Love which, I believe, is quite a nice recording. Whenever he goes to his trumpet mute, especially in the upper registers, the sound becomes almost piercing and very edgy. Conversely, Michael Buble's new CD Call me Irresponsible sounds marvelous on every track. Individually I spent a fair amount of time researching each of these components. I know you can buy much better if you're willing (or able) to pony up additional cash. But my investment so far is only $700 for the receiver, $500 for the deck, and $360 for the CBM's. I'm hoping the problem is solvable. Potential causes that come to mind are room positioning (because I recently changed it), cabling (my speaker cables are 20 year old monster cables, and my connects from the deck to the amp are of the $30 variety), or one of my system components (I'm really hoping not this one). I know the sound of any component changes with age....some for the better...some not so much. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7795 Registered: Dec-04 | Hi Chris. If the annoyance was exposed just by moving the speaks, then yes, you might want to work on the placement. Can you move them back to where they were to compare? If you moved all the connects and cables as well, that could have done something. I would movethe speakers, then swap around cables from the cdp, then get some fresh speaker wire, of your choosing(or at least cut back the stuff you have. |
|
New member Username: HawkbillyPost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-07 | Thanks. I could move them back but it may mean a divorce. Two things about the speaker wire. It was top quality when I bought it, but it's old. I also have more of it (about 15 feet on either side but only need 6 ft )than I need with the current placement. Is speaker cable likely to make much of a difference ? Is it typically on the top end that you hear the difference or across the frequency spectrum ? |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7796 Registered: Dec-04 | Chris, the ends of the cable will be oxidized by now, even if you have spade terminations there. I am not sure of the effect of oxidized cabling, I havn't had any. If you can swing the speakers back, like for a test just to see, you may find the new placement has exposed some sibilance. In that case, a little room treatment may clean it up. |
|
New member Username: HawkbillyPost Number: 3 Registered: Jul-07 | Your right. The ends that are twisted into the speaker connectors on the receiver are almost black. I'll cut them back and reattach. I have banana posts on the ends connected to the speakers. Should I cut those off and rework as well ? What is your opinion on the value of upgrading the rca connectors between the cdp and the receiver ? Would I notice a difference there ? Thanks again for the responses. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10758 Registered: May-04 | . You should have clean connections at all points. Go to Radio Shack and buy a spray can of Pro Gold contact cleaner. Spend an afternoon making certain all your connections, at all points, are clean. Or replace the cables. You don't have that much invested that it isn't worth just buying new. You don't have to spend a fortune on interconnects, go to the "Accessories" section of the forum and look at the thread on $100 ic's. Speaker cable should be Home Depot orange or Wallmart white outdoor extension cable. Cut the cable to length, use two of the three internal legs and make good, tight connections that will resist oxidation. Don't overtighten the connection to the point of breaking the connector. Do away with the banana connectors and use bare wire connections instead. Bananas are meant to be a temporary connection only. It's unlikely any of that will seriously affect your sound problem. But it should still be done to tidy up the system. And any further advice will be almost futile until you've made certain the cables and connectors aren't part of the problem. Was this problem evident before you moved the system? Does the problem exist on all input sources, or just CD? Did you do anything to isolate the CD player from vibrations or is it sitting where it fits? Did you set the speakers up with any plan in mind, possibly some sort of formal speaker set up such as Wilson's W.A.S.P. technique, or did you just plop the speakers where they fit? What sort of stands are the speakers on? Are there any obstructions between you and the speakers, something like a coffee table in front of your listening position? How would you describe the room in terms of sound? Warm? Bright? Sterile? Lumpy? . |
|
New member Username: HawkbillyPost Number: 4 Registered: Jul-07 | I'll clean-up the cables for sure. To answer some of your other questions; The problem was there prior to rearranging things, but it seems more prevalent now. Interestingly, the low end seems a little tighter, and the mids are as open and warm as they were in the previous configuration. I notice the problem only on the cd player, but it's also the only source where I play music at performance levels. I didn't deploy the speakers with any specific methodology in mind, other than trying to get them at least 8' apart, with my listening position around 10' away. No obstructions, and about 1' of clear space around each speaker. The speaker stands are solid maple, about 4" square on the posts, and sand filled. I have 3 metal pegs on the base keeping them about 1" clear from the carpet. The subwoofer is actually closer to the stereo stand now to where the cd player is....about 2' away. The room generally is pretty neutral I think....our kitchen/dining room is only separated from the living room by a large freestanding cabinet that's about 7' high. The living space in total is about 16'x24'. The living room is carpeted, the ceiling is vaulted and finished with 4" pine tongue-and-groove. Gyprock walls all way round. I really appreciate the questions/suggestions. If I get a few minutes tonight I'll rework the speaker wire and let you know if that makes any difference. I'll shorten them as well, as right now they are both about 15' long, and only need to be about 6 or 7'. Thanks again. |
|
Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2251 Registered: Sep-04 | I disagree strongly with your comments on bananas. They are perfectly satisfactory for long term use provided they are of the crimp and solder type. In order to avoid oxidation one should ensure that after crimping, the solder flows into the plug and out up to the insulation, closing off any gap. This makes for an effective and long lived quality solution. It's interesting that in the US the only quality connector to use is the spade, whereas in Europe the banana is king. Regards, Frank. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10762 Registered: May-04 | . I've never had anyone strongly disagree about bananas. Crimps or solder only take care of one end of a banana. And here I would strongly disagree with your termination process. If you've done a proper gas tight crimp, there is no need to add solder which contaminates the connection with tin and lead. A good crimp joint is one of the best available, there is no need to muck it up after you've gone to all the work of making a good crimp joint. If you can't make a good crimp joint, however, you probably can't make a good solder joint either. I would prefer screw type bananas for their ability to cinch down on the cable to the point of making a very good bare wire connection at the input of the banana. None the less, a banana plug has no provision for crimp, solder or any sort of non-gas permeable connection at the speaker end of the connector. This is the real problem with banana connectors. Sorry you Brits don't see that. Not to mention most "audiophile" banana plugs sound horrible. Spade lugs are lower on my list of preferred connectors than bare wire. The least intervening connection points, the better. That's why God gave us bare wire and binding posts. Evolution my eye! Bananas are evolution gone awry, hardly the survival of the "fittest"! Bare wires and binding posts are intelligent design at work. CH - Explain "performance levels". Is it possible you are asking too much of the system? I don't know your speakers well enough to comment on specifics but are they not considered to be rather tipped up in the highs? Have you listened to the same problematic CD's on headphones to narrow down where the problem might exist? |
|
New member Username: HawkbillyPost Number: 5 Registered: Jul-07 | I don't really have a set of quality headphones I'd trust to evaluate with, but I might be able to borrow a set. Good idea. No headphone jack on the deck though, so I'll have to work through the receiver. Another thing I'm going to spend some time doing is listening to some of the same CD's via my new DVD player I just setup last night. I got a Oppo 981HD player, which allegedly holds up reasonably well on the audio front. I'll try to evaluate that tonight after I straighten away the speaker cables. I've read some of that commentary about the CBM-170's. I've read more the other way...that being that they are open and crisp, but not fatiguing. One thing that is not handled well in my opinion by something in my system is brushes on cymbals. On my Carmen Lundy - Self Portrait XRCD there are several songs where the percussionist uses this technique, and it sounds so vague its annoying. I don't think I'm pushing things to hard. It's noticeable on my amp at anything above -20db, which really isn't very loud. At -15 it's very noticeable....again, on specific cd's...not all. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10763 Registered: May-04 | . I would wonder why the problem is more annoying at even a slightly higher volume level. Hmmm .... "Crisp" is a euphemism for, " ... bright but they won't buy ad space if I say that", or, "Gee, they're brighter than I'd wish but I paid for them so I'll call them crisp". "Crisp" speakers almost always require special attention in system choice and set up. Even then, crisp can simply be fatiguing. It is seldom what you hear live and not at all what you hear live when playing a recording made by placing microphones three inches from an instrument. Brushed cymbals are very difficult to manage well. This is one area where big buck investment pays off. Do your speakers have metal dome tweeters or soft domes? . |
|
New member Username: HawkbillyPost Number: 6 Registered: Jul-07 | They have a soft dome tweater. Here's one review of my speakers. Many others at the ascendacoutics.com website if you're interested. http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/ascendacoustics_cbm170.htm I shortened up my speaker cables to about 6' on either side, and cut off both ends ( and bananas ) and got into some fresh wire. It might have made a slight difference, but if it did it was pretty subtle...but I only got a chance to listen for a few moments. I tried the same tracks through the Oppo and although the DVD-Audio disk I loaded didn't sound bad, any CD I popped in there was not impressive. Pretty sloppy really. Great picture, but certainly a below average audio performer by my ear. I didn't notice the same harshness as I did on my NAD playing the tracks the problem is most noticeable on, but the upper frequencies really didn't open up at all. They seemed muted in comparison. I'll try borrowing a decent set of headphones and take the speakers out of the equation. When I moved my system around I took the speakers from pointing sideways in the room, to pointing longways. However, I would have thought any resonant frequencies would remain the same, regardless of orientation. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10766 Registered: May-04 | . No, go read a bit about room acoustics. But you aren't dealing with "resonances" at the higher frequencies. The most common room associated problem at the high end is due to reflections. Too many and too severe at the first and possibly second reflections points. Move the speakers and you change the reflection points. Move where you listen and you change the reflections you hear. . |
|
Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2252 Registered: Sep-04 | Jan, Most crimped bananas cannot be crimped to be gas tight. The only two I know of that allow this are QED and WBT. Most others have an open well which is crimped to grab the cable tightly. One can then flow the solder into the plug. This is a relatively well known technique which is wide spread in the UK and the results are excellent. Screw type bananas are the worst type. Although you can cinch down onto the wire, you don't provide uniform pressure and usually only provide decent pressure in a very small part of the connection. Furthermore, you have all that air causing oxidation of the wire. Any and all connections of this type allow corrosion. God didn't give you bare wire and binding posts - engineers who didn't know better or who didn't want to spend the extra did! Regards, Frank. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10769 Registered: May-04 | . Well, since this seems to be a debatable subject for some reason ... The extra for what? You've addressed your concerns about the input end of a banana plug, to which I have reservations since there are crimp type connectors that allow a gas tight crimp and there are more than the few that exist outside of the consumer audio world. Though I'm not sure why I'm arguing that aspect of the affair since a crimped spade is only slightly better, IMO, than a banana plug. A bare wire is still the best. I don't know how that can be debatable. As to the uneven pressure thing. Buy a Pamona, they are used in laboratories for their consistency. Just place the correct guage cable in the connector. The world doesn't revolve around 12 A.W.G. wire and gold plated audiophile jewelry, Frank. They make for nice profit margin and items to argue about but not always the best sound. But so far you've only addressed the input end of a banana connection. A banana plug still makes for a generally lousy long term connection on the output end. There is more surface to surface contact with a bare wire with no intervening parts to screw with the sound and the connection can be made gas tight with a bare wire in a binding post or on a terminal post. I have never heard a bad sounding bare wire connection if it is correctly done. I've heard more than a few bad sounding banana plugs. How do you make a gas tight connection with a banana plug? If you can't do that, the connection begins to deteriorate from the moment you place it in the socket. Not so with a proper bare wire connection. Take it apart fifty years from now and the copper will still be shiny. And over how much area does a banana plug contact its recepticle? Is a banana plug self wiping? How about cleaning a banana plug? Pretty damn hard if you ask me. And how much will a really good banana plug cost in your estimation? Bare wire is free. I just don't see the logic or the need for a banana plug as anything more than a temporary connection. . |
|
New member Username: HawkbillyPost Number: 7 Registered: Jul-07 | Jan, thanks for the reference to the WASP speaker setup. Very interesting. I'll experiment with those concepts for sure to try and refine my current setup. Most of the discussion on the articles I read were related to bass "boom" issues, but I'm sure the procedure will be helpful generally. Reading some of the other postings on this site reminded me of when I first received, and setup my speakers. I had upgraded my system one piece at a time....cdp, then amp, then speakers....so it was only then that a lot of my investment came to life. It was awesome. The reason I rearranged things this time was to improve my speaker placement, and accomodate the new HDTV. Previously my speakers were both to the right of the TV, not on either side. Drove me crazy. Generally I hear improvements from the change....with this one complaint with some recordings tarnishing somewhat my overall satisfaction. I suppose I shouldn't obsess about the one annoyance, but rather revel in the many pleasures I hear.....but, that's just me. Never content. |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10771 Registered: May-04 | . Let me suggest this; place a double fold LP cover behind your head while listening. If you have no double fold LP, shame on you but none the less, place your hands behind your ears cupped gently to focus the sound. Don't go so far as to move your ears outward - you'll look too much like Prince Charles and you will alter the perceived frequency response of the sound - just place your hands slightly behind your ears. If you hear a distinct difference between the hands/LP cover behind your ears/head and nothing behind you, you have room problems. How you solve the problem beats me at the moment. Each case will need to be treated on an individual basis. This isn't easily accomplished over a forum but possiby you can begin to resolve room problems on your own with just a bit of help. . |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7804 Registered: Dec-04 | Chris, you would do well by using a set of cans, but if you did not use them before, all that will end up is you buying a nice set of Seinnhausers.(no harm in that at all). Moving the speakers to play to the long of the room is generally right, Chris. But such a movement is a huge difference(I just did the same). Are you sure that the highs are shrill, or is it just the difference? In one month? |
|
New member Username: HawkbillyPost Number: 8 Registered: Jul-07 | Jan, I do in fact have a few double fold LP's at hand. My Rega Planer 3 is still spinning just fine. I'll give that a try. Nuck, I've never been a big headphone guy. I listen to a set of buds while at the gym, but that's about it. I'm sure a nice set would be nice, but I'm more likely to throw the money at something else. Thanks again for the ideas. Much appreciated. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7817 Registered: Dec-04 | Cover the fold-out album with foil and hoist it under your chin, Chris, with Zep on the TT. By any chance, Chris, are your speakers canted back at any angle? In your room, they should be straight forward. Just poking around. And the ceiling could be treated with a looping fabric(width of your choice) and drooping in loops to resemble a library hung with tiles. |
|
New member Username: HawkbillyPost Number: 9 Registered: Jul-07 | I put a level on the speakers when I moved them, so they should be level front-to-back and side-to-side....or at least as accurately as you can get with a bubble level. I'd love to make some acoustical adjustments to the room, but I'm thinking looping fabric from the ceiling would result in another trip to the penalty box. Acoustically speaking, where am I likely to get the worst reflection ? - Carpeted Floors (good I think) - Pine Ceiling (probably bad. I don't know whether it helps that the ceiling is vaulted.) - 2 very large windows, one behind the speakers, one on the right wall. Curtains on one, nothing on the other. (probably not good?) - Gyproc walls, although only the back wall contains large areas of clear wall. There are two large bookshelves in one corner. - 1 large Cherry plywood freestanding cabinet on the left, which creates a 7x8' semi-wall. (bad) |
|
Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10774 Registered: May-04 | . "Acoustically speaking, where am I likely to get the worst reflection ?" The first reflection almost always requires some treatment. Find it buy placing a mirror along the side walls while sitting in your listening position. Move the mirror fore and aft along the wall until you see the tweeter's reflection in the mirror from your chair. That spot needs to be damped. Repeat this for both speakers and both sets of horizontal reflections off both side walls. Best to also check the floor and, if you can do anything about it, the ceiling also. Toe in of the speakers will affect reflections and direct signals. When you're having high frequency reflections you have a choice. If you toe the speakers in, the first reflection point occurs farther from the speaker which will slightly diminish the signal strength and thus the reflection's strength. If you point your speakers directly ahead with no toe in, you slightly minimize the direct signal's strength at your listening position and move the first reflection point to another location where it might bounce a second and third time before arriving at your ears slightly out of time with the direct signal. Look at your room, think about reflection points and try both toed in and straight forward positions. If your speakers have very wide dispersion tweeters, I generally prefer no toe in at all. . |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7826 Registered: Dec-04 | Even I can understand that one, JV. Excellent! |
|
New member Username: HawkbillyPost Number: 10 Registered: Jul-07 | OK. I did the ol' double-fold-out-album-behind-the-head routine. After getting settled in listening for a few minutes to Holly Cole I dropped the album behind my head. Immediately Holly stepped forward. Her voice focused better in front of me, and came forward distinctly. Everything else focused tighter as well on the soundstage. The little edge on her "s"'s toned down, and the bass player lined right up behind her. As soon as I take the album away, she backs right up again. Although everything is still presenting reasonably, it's not quite as distinctly placed...and a tad ragged perhaps in comparison. I did the mirror routine as well. The right speaker reflects directly in the middle of our picture window. The left reflects prior to reaching the cabinet on the left, so I'm presuming the primary reflection point would bounce into the kitchen, not directly off of the cabinet face. Now, I pick up the right speaker on the left cabinet almost at midpoint. I propped a couple of throw pillows against the cabinet and the window, and it seemed to help a bit, but didn't do what the album did. Anyway, it was an interesting exercise. I think I can do a lot just by experimenting. I later toed out the speakers until they were hardly toed in at all, and moved my listening position slightly closer to match the recommended ratio from the WASP article. I also aimed the speakers ever so slightly down. Better still. I was also talking to a guy I have respect for at my local Audio shop. Great guy. He's been building his own speakers for years. Interesting cat. He recommended a set of upgraded interconnects for the CDP to Receiver connection. He was pretty sure I'd notice a difference, and I could bring them back if I didn't. I can't remember the name of the cables, but I'll let you know when I get them home. They cost around $125.00, which is as much as I'm prepared to spend. Thanks very much for the advice and patience. I'll keep tinkering until I get it right....or as right as it can be without replacing more gear. Thanks again. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7847 Registered: Dec-04 | Chris, have fun with it. The music is all that matters, perfecting your reproduction of it is a labour of love. Unless it drives you nuts. |
|
Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 501 Registered: May-06 | Unless??? |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7852 Registered: Dec-04 |  |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics