I have a pro-ject 1 xpression turntable and I`d like to improve its sound maybe replacing the old cartridge (Ortofon OMB10) or getting a stand alone phono stage.
The phono stage which I`m using is incorporated in my amplifier (Rega Brio).
I`ve seen good opinions about denon DL 110, 160 and many other cartridges but I really dont know if it works fine with my phono stage or tonearm.
Do you think is better to get a better cartridge or new phono stage?
Any way, I`m new in vinyl and all opinions are welcome.
Definitely the cartridge. The phono stage on the Brio is very good. I've heard it do justice to far more expensive cartridges than the one you're using. I've heard the internal board the Brio and Mira use are the same as Rega's seperate phono stage - the Fono. The cartridge is the weak link IMO.
As to cartridge advice, I don't have any. I also have a 1Xpression, so I look forward to opinions because my stock cart (Sumiko Oyster in the US) is definitely my weakest link too.
I've heard very good things about the Denon carts. I'm also interested in the Dynavector 10x5, Grado line, and Goldring line, but don't know how well any of them will work with the 1Xpression or my phono stage. The dealer whom I bought from is unfortunately out of business.
A couple of other thoughts, Carlos -
Have you tried out the Speed Box? It sounds stupid, but its a huge upgrade. Its not just a 33/45 rpm switch.
A upgraded mat will also help. I use Herbie's Way Excellent Turntable Mat. I don't know if its available to you in the UK. A lot of people like the Ringmat. I was skeptical about mats until I tried them out.
My last upgrade is Vibracones. They provide very good isolation in my system. Even better would be a wall shelf, but I don't want to drill holes and don't have the appropriate wall space in my room. Its a finished attic, and I rent. The Target wall shelf is a favorite of many people.
While the sum of the Speed Box, mat, and cones wasn't dirt cheap, they cumulatively made a very big difference. I'd rank their level of improvement in that order in my system.
Do keep in mind that I used to own the 1Xpression and presently own the same phono section...Stu also owns the same turntable. Perhaps our opinion may be of value to someone.
Stu Pitt, I was searching information about the Pro-ject speed box and some people says it makes the pro-ject 1 xpression sounds more relaxed and gives more naturality to its sound.
In fact what I feel is my sound from my turntable provides me good detail but the sound doesn`t flows with naturality and it lacks some space around instruments and bass
Jan Vigne, if I buy a phono stage it will be something like Cambridge Audio 640P or the PROJECT PHONO BOX MK2 PRE AMP. Something up to £90.
But any way, the cartridge is my weakest link, isn`t?
I wouldn't say the Speedbox makes the table sound more relaxed. IMO it gives it better pace, rythym, and timing (PRaT). It also cleans and tightens up the bass, lowers the noise floor, and opens up the sound. These qualities give the table a more natural sound, and to my ears make music sound more live and closer to the real thing.
Forget about phono stages in your stated price range. They won't come close to the built in stage in the Brio. Keep in mind Rega is a company that holds vinyl playback in the highest regard, and the overwhelming majority of their customers are vinyl fanatics. That is not a corner that has been cut nor is it an afterthought. It wouldn't surprise me for a second if Rega didn't design the integrated amp to reproduce vinyl first, and everything else second.
It's your money, not ours. But if anyone tells you that your phono section is sub par, especially compared to the phono stages you've mentioned, run away. Don't walk.
The cartridge will make far more of a difference than the phono section in your instance. A new phono stage in your price range will be two steps back, not one.
I'd advise the cartridge upgrade first, then the Speedbox. The carts Art recommends are the ones I thought would be the best match as well. Keep in mind that Music Hall tables use Pro-Ject arms and come with Goldring carts pre-installed. This should indicate that they work very well together.
The Brio phono stage is already better than the ProJect Phono Box and likely the Cambridge as well. I used the Speed Box with my 1Xpression and would agree that it was an improvement...especially worthwhile when you look at the modest outlay. Also the Herbie's mat that Stu is talking about was a big improvement for my 1Xpression. In the end you're only going to be able to squeeze so much from that cartridge.
You may be able to upgrade the stylus of the Ortofon to a better one without changing the rest of the cartridge. The Ortofon OM 10, 20, and 30 are the same cartridge body, the only difference being the stylus. I've heard upgrading the stylus makes a huge difference. This may be a cost effective upgrade. If you're contemplating moving up the Ortofon ladder, look into this before buying anything else. If you want to move in a completely different direction, ignore what I've just said.
Let me ask another few dumb questions. Carlos, how long have you had this table and cartridge? What exactly are you trying to improve? Why do you think changing either the cartridge or phono section would make the improvement you desire?
You really can't get somewhere unless you know where you're starting from and in what direction you wish to go and the best route to getting there with the least amount of cash outlay. No one seems to have asked these questions, they've all just jumped in with opinions on what direction you should take on a road to who knows where. How do you know you want to end up where they've lead? The Denon sound is reasonably far from the Ortofon's and I wonder why you chose it as a possible purchase.
Also, Carlos, how and where do you have the table set up? Do you have the table sited on a proper surface or did you just place it where it fit? Who did the alignment of the arm/cartridge? Have you messed with it since it was set up? Tweaked a setting here or there?
"...they've all just jumped in with opinions on what direction you should take on a road to who knows where."
While you bring up a good point, what we've been saying doesn't change. Carlos's original question was which part we felt was the weakest link. From my and Art's personal experience having owning/owned the table, we're pretty well versed as to which piece was the weakest link.
Having heard the phono stage on many occasions and having heard the phono stages which Carlos mentions, its very obvious why he should stay with what he's using in this regard. You'd be very hard pressed to find a person without financial incentive who's heard them, and recommends keeping the cartridge and changing the phono stage.
My suggestions for the different tweaks have hardly anything to do with adding a type of sound. Rather, they reduce sonic signatures to get to the heart of the music. They all clean up the sound, rather than tipping the balance one way or another. I also stated that he should upgrade the cartridge first, as that will make the biggest difference, and will be more tailored to the sound he's looking for than all of the other tweaks combined.
I didn't make any cartridge recommendations. I merely threw out some options to look into based on what I know. I didn't ask what type of sound he's looking for because I don't know any of the cartridges well enough to be able to do anything with that information. The only knowledge I have of the cartridge's sound charecteristics are what I've read. I've heard some of the cartridges on different decks, and with different electronics. I haven't experimented with them enough to have a solid grasp on what was causing what.
Let me ask you a dumb question, Jan - Have you hear the Pro-Ject 1Xpression? Have you heard the Mira's phono stage? Have you heard the other stages? If no to any of those questions, how can you make an accurate description of what his end result may be?
Even dumber question - When he describes what he's looking for, how do you know his interpretation of terms like 'warm' 'forward' and so on will be the same as what you or anyone else defines them as?
We're all trying to do the best we can do here. Please don't take any of this personally.
I was going to ask similar questions Stu. In fact I posted then deleted the post.
My suggestions were based on my knowledge of the gear that we we're discussing. I'm sure that Carlos will define "better sound" differently than I do. However by giving suggestions relative to where to start we've given him a place to launch further research. He has a good table that will benefit from the tweaks that you and I used. It's also being used with a very good phono stage (is it the right one for Carlos, I don't know and will never know) which will show the differences in cartridges that are in a different league than the one he is using. That's why I suggested the MM cartidges that I did. Like many others I always look forward to folks adding suggestions or coming from a different perspective...respectfully.
SP - You should know I don't take much personally on this forum. I come here to discuss audio and hopefully help a few people out. That's all.
Have I heard the table or phono stage. No. I know the cartridge and I know Rega's house sound and I can make an educated guess at the table's sound.
But that doesn't change my questions.
I can't make an accurate assessment of what he wants or will end up with until he tells me what he wants and why. And until I find out if there is something else that would be more helpful to Carlos at this point. And neither can anyone else. So far all we know is Carlos wants to improve the sound.
"In fact what I feel is my sound from my turntable provides me good detail but the sound doesn`t flows with naturality and it lacks some space around instruments and bass.
From all I know and have read, musical flow isn't a real problem with this table and cartridge. It certainly isn't a problem with the Rega. So maybe the table and cartidge aren't the problem at all.
If someone said their system lacked "space around instruments," is the cartridge necessarily where you would begin to solve the problem? Maybe, maybe not. Could be speakers, maybe not. Could be Carlos is expecting what he's read about from higher priced gear and the cartridge is going to do little to resolve what the system can't. Space around instruments is not the Rega's strong suit either. Musical flow is. Where's that leave us?
Thinking the Denon will make this miraculous change is quite a leap from the sound of the OM10. Particularly since the Denons are MC's and the Rega isn't set up for MC to my knowledge. So, just what is Carlos thinking here? And, why is he thinking that way? Does he have a plan or is this just p!ssing into the wind and hoping he doesn't get wet? I think that makes a difference to any answer that would help him out.
How? What? Why?
That's all I've asked so far.
But no one else has.
Do this, do that; buy this, and that. Yet you don't really know what he is starting from or why he chose what he thinks might be the best direction to take. How do you direct someone to get somewhere when you don't know what they want? I've no doubt the items you've listed are worthwhile investments. I've never implied that they are not; have I? I'm saying we should have a bit more information about what we should be suggesting to make the best improvement possible at this time. A speedbox is meaningless if the table isn't set up properly. Agreed? Will a mat overcome poor placement or set up? How do you know Carlos doesn't have his table sitting on top of his Cerwin Vega speakers? We had a question that ended up with that situation. We don't know Carlos has his system set up properly to make a move to another cartridge. That's all I'm trying to find out at this point. It how a salesperson asks a question to best aid a client. Or, at least, should.
I'm not suggesting the cartridge can't be upgraded. But is it the best move Carlos could make?
He has a nice table, what else does he own? Maybe there's something that should come before the cartridge.
Carlos says he's new to vinyl. What's that mean? A week? A month? Now he's ready to make changes? Is that the smartest thing he could do at this time? Probably not. If he's owned the table for two years, that's different. But I don't think that's the case here. You can't run until you learn to walk, right? I'm just making sure Carlos gets the best answer possible.
Contrary to Jan, I feel we can guide a little bit in this situation.
Carlos has identified a couple of issues with his current replay. One is the lack of flow and the other is the lack of space. In my opinion, there isn't much that can be done about the lack of flow. This is not a ProJect strong point. The Project is relatively good at the soundstage side of stuff but flow and cohesion are not its strong suit by comparison to the Rega decks which are in the same price range (the P2 I guess). This improves quite a bit with the Speed box.
The ProJect has the bigger soundstage and more open sound by comparison to the P2, but in this situation it is being let down by the OM10 cartridge. The whole of the OM series leave much to be desired in my view. Two months should be long enough to have run in the cartridge and Carlos has identified it as a bit of a bruiser.
Of course, it could be that the speakers are rubbish but I suspect that Carlos has other sources otherwise he wouldn't just be new to vinyl - he'd be new to HiFi.
The Denon DL110 is a high output moving coil. Its output (1.6mV) is high enough to work with a MM phono stage which is what is in the Brio (and it is a fine stage for the money, easily as good as any entry level phono stages). That said, it will make the turntable a quieter source than Carlos' CD player.
Goldring have replaced the 1000 series with the slightly more expensive and quite different looking 2000 series. The 2000 series is quite a bit better than the 1000 series, particularly in the treble.
Ortofon have introduced a small range of 2 cartridges called the m2 series. These are good cartridges and worth a look. I believe one is £80 and the other is £100 (or possibly £120, not sure).
So I guess what I am suggesting is that you need to consider two solutions here - 1 is the Speed Box to improve the PR&T of the deck and the other is to improve the cartridge in order to improve pretty much everything (I really don't like those OMs do I? ).
The OM series has outlasted its useful lifespan. It was designed to mate with the low mass arms of the low to midpriced(?) tables from the 1980's. Those tables do not exist any longer (and for the most part should be run over with a truck) and the OM cartridge line up isn't a good match to the contemporary medium mass arms on today's better budget tables. Substantial improvements can be had by using a different cartridge better suited to the medium mass arm on the Project table. I never denied that. That said, the OM series is still a moderately good budget cartridge that, IMO, given the right ancillaries, can produce a satisfying budget cartridge sound and the ability to upgrade the stylus to improve the entire cartridge should be considered as a bonus to many owners. But, while it will track well, do no harm to the discs and seldom offend, the OM will never be a top notch cartridge in a medium mass arm no matter what stylus is on the front of the cartridge.
The Denon is a low voltage high output MC. It should "work" into the Rega's phono section but certainly wouldn't be my first choice for several reasons. Not the least of which is I don't feel it is synergistic with the Rega house sound. But I was more interested in why Carlos thought a MC cartridge would provide the flow and "space" he desires. This sounds like a case of magazine reviews influencing decisions and I believe that's important to know before making further comment. In fact, Carlo's entire sysetm sounds as if it is put together from reviews rather than careful audition with priorities firmly established. The lack of flow and space seem to come more from reading than from listening. That's a dangerous position to start from IMO.
I'm a bit surprised that someone who owns a Rega amplifier would choose something other than a Rega table in order to bring synergy to the fore. Possibly, Carlos has not yet read the articles on system coherence and symapthetic sound. I don't know, apparently will never find out and probably sound too harsh at this point. The salesperson in me says this is an important consideration when determining how to proceed in solving Carlo's issues. Without system synergy, the whole mess is never going to have the flow and staging that one might desire. Just another bunch of components that got good reviews on their own but should not be put together and can be bettered by a lower priced, well thought out system approach.
We still don't know what speakers Carlos owns. Bose perhaps? Holdovers from a HT in a box system? An 8" "subwoofer" in a cardboard box that can't reach beneath 70Hz? What are we to do with that combination if flow and staging are the desire? Carlos seems to want to hold this card close to the vest, however. I do believe it would be well worth while to know a bit more before suggesting ways to improve the phono gear when the rest of the system might be letting the table down. But, I think, Carlos has money to spend and he has taken "source first" a bit too seriously. Ahh, those magazines again.
I find many questions I would ask before getting down to the specifics of upgrading the table. For instance, do the other sources within the system have better flow and space? That would be quite interesting to know; don't you think?
So, rather than contrary to my position, Frank, you seem to have used the bits of information I pulled out of Carlos. There's not much to work on but Carlos should have some idea how to upgrade his table with new purchases by now. If they do not resolve the issues he has with his system, well, that can be another thread.
In my view, a ProJect 1 Xpression is never going to be taking the source first principle too far into any amplifier, let alone a Brio.
You make a couple of interesting points. Particularly, the question of why ProJect into a Rega amp is quite intriguing (Carlos?). And I agree that we should know what the speakers are to really know the complete picture. Carlos, please elucidate.
