Outlaw sound???
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Silver Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 511 Registered: Apr-06 | So I am wondering how outlaw amps sound like ??? warm soft upfront ????? |
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Silver Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 512 Registered: Apr-06 | bump |
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New member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 8 Registered: Jun-07 | Hey Kyle, ive never actually heard one. BUT, I do read pretty good reviews about them. In reviews like on Hometheathermag.com which rate Outlaw audio as one of their best sounding amps for under a grand, they sound "Clear, with a Dry upper midrange". I think that would maybe lean toward your upfront category??? Their internet based only, so your money isn't going into Middle man profits. I guess they will let you listen to the product at your home and if you dont like it within 30 days you can return it for a full refund , give it a listen and let us know. |
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Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 14065 Registered: Dec-03 | "warm, soft, upfront" None of the above. I doubt it would help you if they are described...you have to listen for yourself. Most of my friends listen to my Outlaw gear and none has yet disliked them. |
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Silver Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 513 Registered: Apr-06 | There rebadged ATI amps thanks for the info |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7594 Registered: Dec-04 | My best understandind is a H/K on steroids, but amps only. Try a set. |
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Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 131 Registered: Feb-07 | I have an Outlaw 2200 monoblock which I use to drive my center channel. Since it pushes mostly dialog, it's hard to say exactly what it sounds like. But when I listen to music in 7 channel stereo (my receiver actually does a pretty good job at making this sound good) I get a chance to hear what music sounds like driven by the 2200. I would describe the sound as crisp and sharp, but not fatiguing. Nick's description of "Clear, with a Dry upper midrange" sounds about right. I actually think it's a quite a good piece of kit. I'll probably be buying more someday. |
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Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 14066 Registered: Dec-03 | "rebadged ATI amps" How do you know? |
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Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 26 Registered: Jun-07 | To all: I'll try to make this so easy, that even you'll be able to understand this. If you have trouble with the instructions, I'll be happy to help: 1. First, take that $15,000 Krell amp and that outrageously priced Linn CD player that some ignoramice talked you into buying, and sell it. Since you were stupid enough to buy it, and there's gotta' be more out there like you, sell it them. Make sure you show them the glossies. 2. Secondly, scrap the $10/ft Monster wire, and buy ordinary twisted 16 AWG wire. I know 0.50/ft wire isn't going to impress anyone, but be a rebel. 3. Now buy yourself something that you haven't found in an over-priced, high glossy magazine. But don't tell your friends; they might think you're an independent thinker and exclude you from their luncheon socials. 4. If you follow this avenue of thought, you might very well be on your way to becoming an Engineer, presuming you matriculate from Grade 12. 5. That's it for education today. Remember, study, study, study. |
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Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 134 Registered: Feb-07 | What does this have to do with "Outlaw sound"? |
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Bronze Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 18 Registered: Jun-07 | Eric, what is wrong with Engineer's? ...back to Outlaw audio sound....My buddy just got a Pre/Pro setup from them. He said he likes it. He also has Rotel and NAD and a H/K 635 receiver. He said he thinks the Rotel and Outlaw sound sort of simular. Very forward. Just thought you would like to know. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 701 Registered: Apr-06 | Eric Gracka: Regardless of what you might believe, acting condescending isn't going to help your credibility on this forum. If you want to try and "educate" people, try giving information in a way that doesn't involve you being a pr!ck. |
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Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 37 Registered: Jun-07 | Nick K & Other Members: 1. It's called Eric Gracka stupidity of the Greatest Magnitude, and I will be eating crow for a long time to come. Make sure you quote me on this one. 2. I had never heard of Outlaw Sound, went to their Webpage, and found a jet-black screen with absolutely no information on it. 3. I did however find Outlaw Audio, which was in no way referenced or correlated to Outlaw Sound. 4. So, without doing any further research or investigation whatsoever, assumed that the forum members were having some laughs at my expense, given the rough time that you were putting me through lately. 5. So my posting was my irresponsible respone to the perceived treatment I was getting on this forum. 6. Subsequently, I've learned that I was wrong. 7. I plain screwed up, and expect no leniency, especially since the the lectures I've put you through. 8. Next time I shall be more thorough. |
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Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 38 Registered: Jun-07 | Stephen Munz "Eric Gracka: Regardless of what you might believe, acting condescending isn't going to help your credibility on this forum. If you want to try and "educate" people, try giving information in a way that doesn't involve you being a pr!ck." 1, From my observations thus far, the majority of you have been nothing but the dispensers of solid waste and pr!cks. I've tried to conduct myself in a decent manner, only to be greated by an "elite" group of self-centered, pretentious wannabes who couldn't tell a piece of electrical wire from fishing line. 2. I very seldom use this tone of conversation, but because of your rude manners, I have responded in this manner. 3. I enjoy conversing with pleasant people, but this forum leaves much to be desired. 4. If you want to be plesant, so can I. 5. I work with engineers and techs eveyday, and we seem to have no problems communicating and resolving problems. This group, with the exception of a few, seems to have a large chip on their shoulders. 6. If you like, whittle the chip, and we'll try again! |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 704 Registered: Apr-06 | Eric, you'll note that this isn't a strictly science forum. A lot of people here are of the opinion that if they hear it, then it is there, regardless of what measurements might say. I personally try to temper this with a good bit of science, but I also understand telling someone that their speakers are inferior because it measures like sh!t is an act in futility. Same with wires, amps, or whatever else. If you've got a question to ask, go for it. If you want to answer someones question, go for it. Just respect the fact that others will have different opinions based on their experience. For a simple example of just how you can't predict what the heck will happen, there is some 15 year old kid running around with a decent set of speakers and a decent integrated amp. To say the least, there are numerous flaws in the setup, including speaker placement, and the simple fact that the majority of his music is in the form of 128-192kbps mp3s downloaded from the net. I and a few others told him upgrading his wire would be a grand waste of money. He didn't care, and he bought new wiring. He was happy with the results and said they were audible to him. The kid couldn't tell when a pair of supertweeters on another pair of speakers he owned were on, but he could hear this. It defies science. But who am I to tell him what he can or can't hear? I could quote measurements till I was blue in the face, and it wouldn't change a thing in his eyes. |
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Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 40 Registered: Jun-07 | Stephen and Any Others That I May have Been Out of Lline With: 1. You and the others (I'm not being rude, but there are just too many others to mention), may at your discretion, consider this, if it is your wish, an apology. There were several mitigating circumstances which lead to this confrontation, but I'm not gonig to relive these angstful momemnts again). I have a venemous tongue, which I do not wish to employ again (do not consider this a warning or threat). 2. I believe that for the most part, we are in full concurrence in our thinking. and I'll admit that I came out over-zealous in an attempt to try and help. My over-zealousness cost me respect and persistent conflict, and I hope that this mini-battle is now over, although I acknowledge skirmishes will arise. 3. I can't remember the wording, but I pointed out to Jan that given two CDPs, she, or anyone else for that matter, would not be capable of distinguishing the better one (unless one was complete crap) because the live performer wasn't there for the purposes of comparison. The only thing that could be said was that one sounded different from the other, which is indisputable. So the question arises, how does one choose CDP #1 vs. CDP #2? Which one sounds like the real performer - you'll never know, even if you were at the live concert, the worst venue to audition a performance. Only the recording engineer has a clue! 4. Also bear in mind that from the time the audio leaves the source (voice/mic) until the time it makes it to the CD that you eventually listen to, the audio has gone through between 10 and 20 integrated circuits and transistors (forgot where I got the number, but it's in one of my books at home). Finally, the CD enters the CDP, the preamp/amp, equalizer, speaker, and then your ears. Count the levels of distortion. 5. Ever wonder why CDP arguements go on - maybe it's the 30 or so levels of distortion from source to final product. But in the end, it doesn't matter - either you like it with its numerous flaws of which you are ignorant, or you don't. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 708 Registered: Apr-06 | "So the question arises, how does one choose CDP #1 vs. CDP #2?" Same way you would go about picking any other component. The live performer wasn't there when I picked out my speakers either. I have still listened to enough live music to have an idea of what it sounds like. Note: I personally don't have much experience in the realm of high end CD players. I'm content with my modest HK DVD player at the moment. However, I have heard players that have sounded notably worse (an old Sony carousel that I owned), so I do believe that there can be differences, although perhaps not as huge as some would make them out to be. But for simple examples, you can look at professional grade DACs like the Benchmark DAC1 and compare what they can do to what a Sony CDP's DAC can do. |
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Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 41 Registered: Jun-07 | Stephen: I prematurly posted; the remainder now appears which I believe augments your argument. |
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Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 43 Registered: Jun-07 | Stephen Munz: Eric, you'll note that this isn't a strictly science forum. A lot of people here are of the opinion that if they hear it, then it is there, regardless of what measurements might say. I personally try to temper this with a good bit of science, but I also understand telling someone that their speakers are inferior because it measures like sh!t is an act in futility. Same with wires, amps, or whatever else. If you've got a question to ask, go for it. If you want to answer someones question, go for it. Just respect the fact that others will have different opinions based on their experience. For a simple example of just how you can't predict what the heck will happen, there is some 15 year old kid running around with a decent set of speakers and a decent integrated amp. To say the least, there are numerous flaws in the setup, including speaker placement, and the simple fact that the majority of his music is in the form of 128-192kbps mp3s downloaded from the net. I and a few others told him upgrading his wire would be a grand waste of money. He didn't care, and he bought new wiring. He was happy with the results and said they were audible to him. The kid couldn't tell when a pair of supertweeters on another pair of speakers he owned were on, but he could hear this. It defies science. But who am I to tell him what he can or can't hear? I could quote measurements till I was blue in the face, and it wouldn't change a thing in his eyes. Stephen: My son just pissed away $500 on a sub which he keeps in the trunk of his car, lying (not attached) on a piece of chip board. The wire is 12 AWG (don't know the type, but it doesn't matter because the run is so short), and the amp produces nothing but the finest 500W of distortion imaginable. This is not a common story. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 711 Registered: Apr-06 | Nice! |
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Silver Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 514 Registered: Apr-06 | Berny my only sorce is from the OUtlaw forums |
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Silver Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 515 Registered: Apr-06 | Thanks for the input! |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 444 Registered: May-06 | Eric, In your new found spirit of brotherly love we move on. First one for you. You stated using digital outputs when testing the differences in CD players. Unless you are testing DATs only, you need to use RCA outputs to gain a sense of what the DAC is doing in the CDP you are considering. Using digital outputs you bypass the CDP's DACS. I do not know if this helps you or not but my intent was to offer you help. Now I would like some help from you. What is the least gauge wire I should use for my amp which is rated at 375 wpc? 9 ft. 6 in. length. I do not turn up my pre-amp gain past the 3 of 5 setting and my volume control rarely passes 2 o'clock. I almost always listen to volumes between 11 o'clock and 2 o'clock. If need be I can keep the volume control out of the hands of fools. For reference sake no output is at 8 o'clock, maximum output is at 6 o'clock. Since I do not know, for arguement's sake let's say that the gain is linear for the pot. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7612 Registered: Dec-04 | I think it's drink o'clock. Look at the time, gotta run. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 105 Registered: Jan-07 | If your serious about speaker wire, just send off to BlueJeans Cable for some Belden 10ga. This'll 'bout do it. Cost will be =~40$ to your door with some assembly required. Are you OK w/wire strippers, a screwdriver and a ruler? Failing that, head over to the local builders supply and get some 12ga lamp cord and replace it every year, since it oxidizes and the insulation is probably not UV proof. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4961 Registered: Feb-05 | For best sound ignore the last post... And no I don't want to debate speaker wire. If lamp cord is good enough for you, that's fine but it sure isn't the best sounding option, or even a good sounding option, at least not to my ears. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 106 Registered: Jan-07 | Art, Ignore the whole thing or just the lamp cord jibe? I know you don't want to debate speaker wire, but just let me write one more thing:: Double Blind:: If in double blind testing a panel of say.....3 serious listeners can tell the difference between various speaker wires to a Statistically Significant level, than I'll completely recant. You need a large enough wire sample, a place to do it with good accoustics, a good reference system and a referee / statistician. If you see a result, go grab 3 guys off the floor of the local HT store and repeat! I don't doubt for a second....or milisecond, that you and others have great EDUCATED ears. I don't doubt your veracity for a second when dealing with interconnects but speaker wire is so.....simple. I don't see how double blind as I suggest could be controversial. thanks Art,....Previous suggestions acted on:: |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 107 Registered: Jan-07 | OH! one other thing, than I'll drop it; When dealing with a test of this nature, it is important to see a result:: Let's say, just for the sake of arguement that included in the test is some real clinker stuff. Maybe some 16ga Radio shackup stuff, and a long run to boot. If that can't be distinguished, all bets are OFF. What I am suggesting is that there may be a 'threshold' of cost/quality above which no statistically meaningful differences can be seen/measured. I am not talking preference here, but just being able to tell the difference between various wires, in a reliable statistically valid manner. thanks again............... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4967 Registered: Feb-05 | Done that, been there, got the T shirt. Even though it don't mean squat...even my wife can reliably tell the difference and she is not a hobbyist. You and I probably agree that cost is not the best predictor of wire quality. You have to listen and decide what's good for your system and ears. For many years I used Liberty Cable speaker cable, very good inexpensive speaker cable. It wasn't until recently I vertured into more expensive speaker cable and it has been worth it. Try some vdH D-352 Hybrid...if you can't tell the difference I'll eat my hat. I only say that because I'm pretty sure I won't have to.  I had Chord Rumour 4, Analysis Plus Oval 12, and Liberty all at the same time and they were wildly different. Which one was better...that would be a personal choice. In the end I rejected all of them and went with the vdH cable. "What I am suggesting is that there may be a 'threshold' of cost/quality above which no statistically meaningful differences can be seen/measured." Unfortunately that's a bit of an Eric G kind of argument. I know many of you are bored with hearing me say this but I mean it sincerely, the only measuring device that matters with audio lies on either side of our head...let's use them and the heck with the rest... Sorry Leo...I really am a flat earther I suppose. I'm not very scientific I trust my ears, for now anyway...give me a few years and if they get as bad as my eyes I'll be looking for audiophile hearing aids...  . |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 108 Registered: Jan-07 | Art, if you are a 'flat Earther', does that make me a round Earther? I always thought the Earth looked round from space 'cause your EYE is round! Seriously though, I work in a very technical field and work FOR engineers as a hi-end technician. I am non-degreed. My boss has a sign over his desk:: "In God we trust:: All others bring data." I'm afraid I have been Infected with this mode of thought. No matter how much I think I know the solution to the 'problem de jure', I simply must have something objective in hand which indicates I am correct. Please don't EVER compare me with Eric G. He is a different kind of nut.....and I still haven't gotten the point of his ranting. At least I try to engage and make sense of what I get back. And, while it it true I am not EASY to convince of anything with which I differ, neither am I impossible to convince. Now, (and I hate to even mention this, but you brought it up!) you said your wife:: even my wife can reliably tell the difference and she is not a hobbyist. The ladies tell us stuff we want to hear. No? I bought a set of tires for my wife's car. I thought they were quieter, with better turn in and a softer ride. She agreed, but I could tell she couldn't tell squat. I drive a VERY hi performance car and can reliably tell the difference of a few PSI in tire pressures, even when they all 'sag' together. It sure feels good when I top up the pressures. A wash job does much the same thing....runs much better and seems to get better gas mileage! But that being said, I still want to see some data.....the raw data is preferred, since I have access to the best stat software money can license. I saw a similar test to the one I propose many years ago....dealing with CD players. I think it was dealing with the than new '1 bit' technique. The panel could reliably tell 1 of the 3 players apart and it sounded better. The other 2 disappeared into a statistical morass and could not be distinguished. 1 of the panel had REALLY good ears and the coorelation with what he was given to listen to and what he said he heard was awesome. He could apparently even tell the other 2 players from one another.....most of the time. Ship me off a couple lengths of the 'D-352 hybrid' and I'll have a friend hook it up (or NOT!) and I'll see if I can tell the diff. Would you like a Bernaise Sauce dip for your hat? The kind of hats I usually wear go best with either a good spicey salsa (home made and you CAN really tell!) or some bean dip. Enjoy, Art, and don't let data-driven lunatics like me spoil your fun. Don't forget I was using a Magnavox by Philips 14bit toploader until about 5 years ago when universal DVD players started being available in the 300$ range. If I had the space, I'd still be using the Magnavox. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4976 Registered: Feb-05 | Sorry Leo, I really wasn't comparing YOU to EG. Indeed ya'll ain't the same. Can't ship off the D-352 as I bought the 3 meter pair, terminated. I too worked with engineers at Hewlett Packard for several years. I was so unimpressed that they served to turn me off to their way of thinking. All of the real thinking seemed to done by operators, maintenance techs, technical witers and process techs. I was thinking perhaps a Hollandaise sauce with that hat, please!  |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 109 Registered: Jan-07 | I am indeed a 'process tech' in a semiconductor fabrication facility. I looked up the speaker cable/wire? recommended and DUH, VDH=VanDanHull....stupid me! Do you think if I showed up at the local Hi-End store with my cables, they'd let me A-B 'em? I doubt it, since they make a fortune on this stuff and can't risk being embarassed. Maybe they'll let me borrow a set of anything to compare......??? This is SanDiego and 'trust me' means pretty much the same as it does in NYC. All my engineers are intelligent, make perfect sense and have good spelling. That's what they tell me, anyway. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4978 Registered: Feb-05 | My store would Leo. In fact they invited me over to their house (which is their store as well), to compare cables. And believe me it wasn't them that was embarassed... . The vdH cables embarassed my humble cables. The guys where I shop are great. They are the second retailer I mention in my profile. I was an operator and then a technical writer. I wrote the process manual for my area in the facility. I also provided maintenance on the larger equipment when the maintenance techs were slow to respond or were out back smokin' a doobie...hey someone has to step up if the show's gonna keep on goin'. "All my engineers are intelligent, make perfect sense and have good spelling. That's what they tell me, anyway."  . |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2219 Registered: Sep-04 | Leo, It's very common for us to 'lend' (credit card authorization) cables to customers over the weekend. I can actually recall one or two customers walking out with literally thousands of dollars worth of cables because he wanted to work out which combination was going to work best in his situation. I'm not sure if the same service would be available in the land of the free, but given the focus on service I'd be surprised if a good dealer wouldn't be able to do this. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7641 Registered: Dec-04 | My dealer sent me with 3 sets(1200$) for Sunday/Monday(closed). Card on file, of course. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 110 Registered: Jan-07 | On my next free day cycle I'll wander down to my local / nearest shop. They know me a Little, so I may be able to do a loaner> Now, how to connect 'em? I don't want to get into a 'must hear the difference because it is new/better' thing, so I will need a volunteer to either connect them or NOT connect them. Some familiar material, maybe Sting or Santanna (today is 's' day, apparently!) Than repeat a couple times. I have had a lot of time to think about this....I drove 1000 miles in the last 2 days and here is my conclusion..... DoubleBlind testing is important in this hobby/avocation. It is not important to identify the 'Best' in any catagory except perhaps where huge concensus exists. It is only necessary to identify that there is a statistically valid DIFFERENCE. After that, it is up to YOU the listener to say.....I like (blank) better than the other one..... Speaker wire, which has consumed so much of so many persons attention would be where I start. I have read the 'snake oil' articles and yet reliable, good people say otherwise! Who am I to believe? Just like in Medical Studies the person taking the Sugar Pill sometimes heals. Than, since I insist on a power conditioner, I would have to run the entire test cycle over again without such conditioner! At least with the AMP plugged into its own outlet, since the prevailing opinion is that conditioners 'suck the life out' of amps! Sounds like a good ramp-up to a 2nd set of tests. Sorry, I've hung around the engineering folks too long, I guess. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10626 Registered: May-04 | . "Sorry, I've hung around the engineering folks too long, I guess." No doubt. Do you worry that you might have an incurable disease also? You're making this much harder than required. . |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 112 Registered: Jan-07 | Jan, not THAT much harder. What is so difficult about the idea of double blind testing? The idea is simple, the execution is not, I'll admit. Roadblocks include venue, testers, equipment choice for reference and others...... One simple question: Were is possible to organize such a test would you support it? Or even be one of the panel? And yes, I DO have an incurable disease. I am insanely curious. Knowing full-well that the best in this hobby have always been in advance of those who measure, is why I suggest such a test. If there are statistically significant results that the measurement people say can't be there, then the measurement people go 'back to the drawing board'....and are forced to recant. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7652 Registered: Dec-04 | Leo, the A/B does work, under ideal circumstances. Show me ideal circumstances. The testers must be intimately familiar with the room, placement and performance of the system to offer anything other than 'I like that". The ILT test is like the TSRG test(that sounds real good). Changing of placement of your own speakers, that's an A/B test that is easy to arrang, lift speakers, place, play with Scotch in hand. I cannot believe that A/B a player, or speaker on a foriegn system is of much value. That said, me and Mike W spent a few hours A/B the Nad M5 and the Rega Saturn. A long listen showed differences, to be sure, but to try and evaluate a piece on A/B is really difficult. BTW, Mike came with cash, and knew he would buy it. I was there for a beer, and to confirm the dirrerences that Mike would hear, and apply that to his kit. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 113 Registered: Jan-07 | Good comments, Nuck. Especially the implied 'P' word. NO not Prozac!, but Practical. But I might add, that an unfamiliar kit should not be a hinderence to just telling differences. Yep, My speakers are totally tuned! I even have a speaker to wall template, so they can readily be moved back exactly where they started in the event of a too vigorous dusting/ house PM. As kind of a meaningful aside, in the 2nd worldwar, research was done on productivity of workers. Lighting was improved. Production went up. Better / cooler air? Production went up. Than as a check, something was made worse! Production still went up! The result was that NO MATTER what changed, production went UP! The lesson was that difference is good! As to fine sound, I believe that you, Jan, Art and MANY others can near-instantly tell something is different or has been changed. However, the good/bad judgement may have to wait. The Big Sound of the original '70s BOSE 901s originally impressed, but eventually made me ill. My Maggies, dated as they admittedly are, impressed from the 1st jaw-dropping listen (never heard nuttin like it before) to now, when I dread having to change! And the last, even after a factory rebuild, and having to re-break in......something I would have scoffed at previously..... I believe that the Most Critical Comparison listening should at best be done Scotch-Free (heresy!) and perhaps even silently, with a score sheet for written comments. compare later. For Fun/enjoyment listening Scotch is MANDATORY and a good one, at that (YOU choose!) Chivas or Black at a minimum or some of my Pricey Blue for the blends or some GlenMorangie in the single malts. That being said, the arrangement of a good, double blind test is a practical near-impossibility. Cost? an outrage. Time off? sure. AGree on reference system? not in my lifetime. It would be like herding cats. Jan, please settle down. Overall, I am on your side. I ask critical questions as an enquiring person. However, I DO repeat my question. Would YOU or anyone else be willing to participate or support such a test of any one single component, including my personal favorite, speaker cable? Statistically valid ability to identify stuff where no numerical differences exist means that for the measurement people, it is back to square one. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7653 Registered: Dec-04 | What time do you show up, Leo? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10627 Registered: May-04 | . No, the "A" or "B" test does not work in this type of evaluation. It may be fine for "Coke or Pepsi" but is a rotten way to judge audio components. That has been established for many a year now. A or B only allows for, at best, a difference between the two options both of which could be bad options. And, statistically it is a worthless difference since the chances for a correct guess are about as good as for actually determining a significant or even insignificant difference. If you have a cable or other component you can identify with absolute certainty, you probably have a product that is seriously flawed in some manner. Besides, why are you only listening for differences? A component that is different is not by necessity better, and certainly not by default more musical. I can say with a fair amount of confidence that there will be many things you can place within a system (or without a system) that will make a difference. By all that is logical anything placed within a circuit should alter that circuit in some manner. Hearing that difference is not advancing your system forward in any prudent fashion. Assuming of course, you have are determined to hear a difference. If you have made your mind up there are no differences to be had in audio components of any stripe, measurements or not, then you will hear little to nothing with your simple test. Leo, I'm afraid your time spent around engineers has been for naught, they have failed to illuminate the most rewarding aspect of comparisons. I would suggest you do some reading on the various sorts of tests that can be conducted with audio components which might or might not provide a better conclusion. However, until you reach beyond mere differences as your desired results, you are accomplishing a classic example of time poorly spent. The first thing to establish are, 1) references and 2) priorities. I did not come here to debate A-B testing nor any other sort of judgement producing mechanisms. It just seemed this thread was headed down a long winding path to nowhere. You are certainly capable, Leo, of determining what is required to come to a more conclusive result than A-B allows and you are smart enough to follow a path which leads to a more correct choice not just a difference choice. I would say follow your head but that's what got us to this point. Good luck. . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1929 Registered: May-05 | leo, I used to have the same thoughts as you do until I tried out a few different interconnects in my own home with my own system and music. To me, the differences weren't night and day from the get go. Had it not been my system and my music, I probably would have missed them. But when you spend 2-3 hours a day at times listening to your stereo, even the most subtle difference will magnify itself over t5he long haul. I started a thread a while back about it, but can't remember the name. It was about Audioquest cables vs Monster if you're interested. My analogy was, and still is - Take two pictures of a scene. One using an average camera, and one using a top of the line camera. Keep everything else the same - paper, ink, etc. Put them next to each other in an album. If you're casually flipping through the album, you'd never notice the difference. If you're looking at them for 2-3 hours at a time, those differences will jump out at you. If you're looking at the pictures for 10-15 hours a week, over a course of months or even years, those differences become even more obvious. Flipping through someone else's photo album casually isn't a way to determine if their are or aren't any differences in cameras, any more than an hour long double blind test in a different room with different gear and different music is able to determine definite differences in sound of speaker cables. Just my 2 cents. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10628 Registered: May-04 | . "Statistically valid ability to identify stuff where no numerical differences exist means that for the measurement people, it is back to square one." I can't let this ride. Leo, what have you and the engineers been doing all this time? First, if you truly believe measurements are all that is required to determine a "difference", you don't care what any other test indicates. And you will never go back to the drawing board, square one or any position that does not support your ego. That is the subjectivist's approach to the "problem". Second, if there are differences, you must not have found yet what measurements are different. That is the objectivist's approach and is just as fraught with ego as the other fellow's approach. Ocassionally there are people who shift between the two view points but typically only for self serving reasons. As with most things related to self, absolutism is the greatest danger. . . |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 114 Registered: Jan-07 | Jan, First, I am an engineering technician and have not been admitted to the 'union'. Engineers have traditionally followed the persons with good ears. Measurements may still lag behind those with good ears. I suspect that all the best first generation Hi-Fi guys (mono days!) were also pretty good on a test bench, such as it existed in the 'old days'. If I believe you than all that can be known from measurements is currently known and measurement has no future to improve: ?? All I want is a double blind test. What is the problem? I KNOW there are differences between equipement and suspect that the various manufacturers go for the 'house' sound. I have NO investment in either side and indeed it is nutty to argue that I do. There is more to be gained from finding out and helping the engineering types figure out what they haven't measured than conducting such a test and determining no statistical differences exist. Jan said:: (Leo) what have you and the engineers been doing all this time? First, if you truly believe measurements are all that is required to determine a "difference", you don't care what any other test indicates. This is patently false and a misrepresentation of my views. People with good ears AND engineers have to work together. Finally :: Jan, would you like to participate in such double blind testing? Even in principle is good enough, 'cause I am aware of the practicle aspect of such a test....... This is the 3rd time I ask....and yet no answer! Such a test would NOT be an A/B test, since you have a 50:50 chance for any event. You would need several sets of whatever is under test, maybe 5 or 6 at least. Such a test would be Grueling at least. I would show up for the Booze at the end and be more than happy to supply a brace of my HomeBrewed Ale......I make a mean Imperial Stout! After a couple bottles of it, you couldn't run a screw driver. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 456 Registered: May-06 | Leo, I agreee with Jan's response to your test request. I also agree with Stu, that you have to have a sense of familiarity to understand the differnces in such a test. As to my "tests"; I change stuff in my system. When I do, it is because I expect an improvement. Most things that improve vertically take away from horizontally (metaphor). I must decide if the vertical puts outweigh the horizontal takes. If I think it does, then it is a good difference. Most of the time when I make a change I am looking for something specific to happen. It is not an expectation, simple dialing in to what I am listening for. Then there are changes a good friend of mine recommends, rarely telling me what to expect when I make the change. Those results usually smack me up side the head so it is often quickly very clear what the change was for. Lastly, on an A/B, lets say I hear a change and say "Wow, that was painful, did you hear how everything got so over the top?" while you are saying "Wow, that was wonderful, did you hear how much tighter and more exaxct that got?" What wouild we have proven by the A/B test? |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 116 Registered: Jan-07 | Gentlemen:: NOT A/B testing::If you know what to expect you will get the result you expect, based on human nature. Double Blind, where everyone gets together and decides to test.........taco sauce::bad example:: You are fed Tacos (bitsize, for this scenario) and write down your impressions/ tastes/ and lastly good or bad.....you may have also been issued a numerical score chart....for various characteristics. sweet/hot/tangy/bitter/color/aroma-stink????? There are not 2 sauces, but say.......15, easily available in any SouthernCalifornia Market. Now, 'the chef' prepares tacos.....all identical for round #1. Everybody munches and writes down the impressions. For this test everyone is in an equal room.....same color walls, same ventelation and same place setting. Everybody is served water, not the usual (required ordinarily) cerveza. NOBODY is allowed to share impressions or speak to one another. No burping allowed! When everyone has tested everything and I don't mean 1 round, but several in random order and sometimes same 2x in a row, than the statistician gathers up the cards and compiles the data. 80% of everyone agrees sauce X is garbage. Probably a statistically valid result. I did beer testing by this method. I served 3 people homebrew and asked for them to fill out a taste test card. I served each group 3 different brews, changing only 1 ingredient in each group. I repeated this for 3 groups of people, for a total of 9 people testing 3 different beers with a control ingredient. My results indicated that nobody could discern presence of the test ingredient from 'none' to full dose. This is an acceptable 1st pass test. Double Blind means you don't know what is coming except that you are here to test....speaker cables, taco sauce, power cables, or whatever. The rule is that YOU as a member of the panel don't know anything more except you are to issue opinions based on what is under test. This is NOT an easy test to administer, organize execute or otherwise simply DO. It requires a real nice place, good/stable reference equipment, a variety of what is being tested for, equipment guys to connect (or NOT) the piece under test and somebody to play the music. After all the 'shootin, it will require a statistics guy to crunch the numbers. We ARE NOT looking for Better / Worse, but just 'can you tell the difference' at first pass. Preferences should be taken as part of the data, but it is understood going in that this is a relative scenario and that if Radio Shackup speaker cables in 16ga are identified to a statistically valid level, that DOES NOT mean they are 'better'. Just different, and anyone who identifies them as 'best' should be cut from the team. One person able to say I prefer A to B is not a valid statistic. All this test would do would be to indicate that stuff that is NOT measureable (YET) can be heard to a degree that known audiophiles can distinguish. Engineers would than have to figure out JUST WHAT it is that is heard and distinguished that they can't measure. I think this is called Progress, but I could be wrong about this, too. I simply don't understand the conceptual problem with double blind testing. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10631 Registered: May-04 | . "All I want is a double blind test. What is the problem?" Leo, I just spelled it out for you. If you won't even take the time to consider how to properly conduct such a test, then you have already closed your mind to that which doesn't agree with your predetermined conclusions. Personally, I fall into the subjective camp on testing and do not wish to be tested for whether I can hear differences as someone switches between components. Hearing or not hearing a difference proves nothing as far as I am concerned. I have never, to my knowledge, listened to differences. "This is patently false and a misrepresentation of my views. People with good ears AND engineers have to work together." I didn't say they were your views. I get the feeling your a bit young to have "views" as of yet. I believe they are the views of others, however. Yes, the engineers at companies such as McIntosh, Marantz, Fisher, etc, had excellent ears. They developed them through many years of listening to the real thing in real environments. Mostly acoustic music without amplification but music of all sorts was their reference. Most importantly, they had shared references amongst them, they all established their own priorities and they discussed them amongst one another. In that environment listening never trumped engineering and science never replaced audible results. However, they were never listening for differences either. They listened for audible results that moved the component closer to the real deal based upon what they understood to be scientific reasons for what they were hearing. There are many companies driven by engineers doing quite well in today's market. But none exist in a vacuum of AB testing for differences. Any competent engineer realizes the value of AB testing and when it is not appropriate, as in this case. "Such a test would NOT be an A/B test, since you have a 50:50 chance for any event." You are suggesting I could do no better than to guess?! What you've described is an AB test. How would it not be such? Remember, "All I want is a double blind test"? Are you suggesting an AB test where I know the outcome in advance? I already have that. I like what I own. Am I interested in taking part in your test? No. I don't spend my time listening to cables, capacitors, or dielectrics. It's no longer my job to listen to such things and I spend my time listening to what I like to hear, which is music. That doesn't mean I don't believe there are audible differences between the various sorts of the above mentioned items. I do. Even some that make improvements rather than just differences. I just don't care to spend my time making comparisons between this and that. That is not why I assembled my system. Thanks anyway. I will certainly consider any results you obtain with an eye toward how the tests were run and under what conditions the "winner" was chosen. Please, impress me. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10632 Registered: May-04 | . "This is NOT an easy test to administer, organize execute or otherwise simply DO. It requires a real nice place, good/stable reference equipment, a variety of what is being tested for, equipment guys to connect (or NOT) the piece under test and somebody to play the music." Leo, are you willing to provide the reference quality equipment for everyone to own? You are asking us to change a circuit by inserting a cable and if it is not the same circuit we all change, then the results are flawed from the beginning. How do you work around that? "All this test would do would be to indicate that stuff that is NOT measureable (YET) can be heard to a degree that known audiophiles can distinguish." The test has been done and the results were either ignored or used to point to the gullibility of audiophiles depending on how any one group wished to read and tally the results. There is presently more politics than science involved in cable choice. I don't think anyone believes that cables with vastly different I,C,R measurements do sound similar once they are inserted in a circuit. Many people hear the varying qualities of cables. Are they not proof enough there is more to be understood regarding why this occurs? If not, why not? You are not breaking new ground here, Leo. What are you trying to prove, Leo? . |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 285 Registered: Jul-05 | well this thread certainly took a dump |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 117 Registered: Jan-07 | Jan, I agree that HF cables are very prone to I/C/R differences leading to differing results: AF stuff not so much. A test of A/B is not a test, I think you agree. The basic chances are 50:50, rite? But since the differences are audible, this would test the abilities of people to tell such a difference. I would presume you and others to be able to tell at very high levels...in the 90% range or better. I may only score in the 70's....or even at chance levels. The net goal would be to help engineers give measurable, repeatable numbers to things which are 'felt'. My specific thoughts dealt w/Speaker Cable, around which so much controversy exists. EveryOne can't be right. The 'Snake Oil' folks over at Audioholics say that at some point you simply can't tell and most of the engineering claims are so much smoke/mirrors. The other group believes in what they hear. If such DoubleBlind tests have been done properly, and than ignored, than the people ignoring such tests are simply wrong.....and I suspect missing an opportunity. Remember, there are lies, damn lies and statistics. When I become a BizzillionAire, you can have any new system you want! And I'll help anyone here out as well. Until then, to run such a test would require a REAL cooperative hi-end store with plenty of extra space and limitless patience. No 'winner' in any proposed test. Just data. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10635 Registered: May-04 | . Resistance - not so much. Capacitance and inductance - obviously so. " ... this would test the abilities of people to tell such a difference." And I'm not interested in being tested. There is no engineering feat that accounts for what people hear. The test is of the listener, not the equipment. There is nothing to prove here. "The 'Snake Oil' folks over at Audioholics say that at some point you simply can't tell and most of the engineering claims are so much smoke/mirrors. The other group believes in what they hear." Neither position makes the other wrong. As I said, politics are as active in the cable wars as any real political battle. As with most political arguments, neither side is entirely wrong and neither absolutely right. But, as with politics, neither is likely to cede any ground to the other. If so, it would have happened by now; don't you think? "If such DoubleBlind tests have been done properly, and than ignored, than the people ignoring such tests are simply wrong.....and I suspect missing an opportunity. Remember, there are lies, damn lies and statistics." Yes, please read again the above paragraph. I'm sorry Sterophile has taken down its reprint of a 1984 cable report conducted for Stereo Review. If I can find it, I will link to it. As is, Leo, your test would prove nothing that I see of value. You've proposed no controls that would make the test even remotely relevant. With dissimilar systems and dissimilar everything there really is nothing to be proven. "The net goal would be to help engineers give measurable, repeatable numbers to things which are 'felt'." You don't seem to understand that most engineers do not want to measure what is "felt". If they do, there are more than enough examples of listeners suggesting they felt one particular cable was different than another cable. A quizzical engineer should have more than sufficient data to begin a search for why that would be. Most, unless they intend to market cables, dismiss the idea out of hand unless the cables obviously measure differently. If they intend to market cables, they introduce their own ideas regarding why their cables are better than someone else's. If they are engineers, they have valid erasons for what they've done. If they talk about "the concepts of", they don't have a clue about engineering. They might still produce a good product just by listening and intuition but it will not be done by engineering. Sorry, Leo, you haven't convinced me you've come up with a good idea here. You keep talking about differences. Differences are not what I'm after in my system. I'd kind of like consistency. As I said, if something is that different as to be audible 90% of the time, it is probably defective. That's not how this stuff works. Try it yourself. Grading the various aspects of dynamics, bass, clarity, etc. on a scale of 1 to 10 still says nothing about how the music sounds or how any one person's priorities affect what they hear in those areas. You do not inject the statistics guy after the fact unless you want them to tell you everything you did wrong. Do you have such a person to set up these tests? "Until then, to run such a test would require a REAL cooperative hi-end store with plenty of extra space and limitless patience." And, I guess that is due to just fall out of the sky at any minute. And we will all congregate there at out own expense. Leo! . |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 118 Registered: Jan-07 | Jan, this is a 'thought experiment'. I am not saying it would be easy to organize, and in fact nearly impossible. What I have called 'Herding Cats'....... Yes, it is a fantasty for such a test to be run. And yes, my description of it is superficial, at best. But a good experimental design person could run with such framework and design a test which would yield useful data. stuff neither of us have thought of. I have enough experimental design experience to know that even doing a run-thru of power cords, for example, would take quite a while and be detailed. The reference system in the reference listening space are just 2 of the 'controls' you mention. Jan said:: I didn't say they were your views. I get the feeling your a bit young to have "views" as of yet. I believe they are the views of others, howeve Jan, how old do I have to be to have views? I keep an open mind on things where there are so many opinions which disagree. So, Everybody has an ax to grind? Guess how old I am by this post! Hi-End does itself a disservice by making claims which sound to 'regular' people just plain nutty. Cryogenically treated power cord? Single Crystal Copper? Dielectric Bias? (what?) A whole raft of claims which are inaccessible to most people. Data would help and you need some Engineering types to help gather it and analyze it. Marketing claims VS reality is an issue. Jan said:: Neither position makes the other wrong. As I said, politics are as active in the cable wars as any real political battle. As with most political arguments, neither side is entirely wrong and neither absolutely right. But, as with politics, neither is likely to cede any ground to the other. If so, it would have happened by now; don't you think? Very True: No Prisoners! Too much money involved I am curious. What could be measured in say, 1945? How have audiophiles 'forced' engineers to do better? Are things Frozen today? Do you think that there are new things, yet unthought of, to measure? Jan Said:: They might still produce a good product just by listening and intuition but it will not be done by engineering. Jan, please rethink the above. It is by the application of good, verified engineering principles that much of what you know and love has come about. This has all been driven by 2 groups working together. Good ears and Good engineers. Jan Said:: You don't seem to understand that most engineers do not want to measure what is "felt". Right again, Jan. Now finish the thought:: If a statistically valid sample can hear something we can't measure, we need to figure out what it is so we can measure it! That is the road to improvement. Have fun today, I'm heading for the beach and than catch a movie. I may try to get down there for a SunSet and take a few pictures. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2221 Registered: Sep-04 | Leo, If a statistically valid sample can hear something we can't measure, we need to figure out what it is so we can measure it! That is the road to improvement. I know a couple of electronics manufacturers who have done the tests and been trying to do this in their spare time for the last few years, all to no avail... Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 119 Registered: Jan-07 | Thanks Frank: I guess than, that this may be a future item. I hope people don't give up on this. I wouldn't like to think that everything is known about Hi-Fi. Some bright kid, interested in good sound, will hopefully have an insight that allows progress on this front. The toughest 6" in golf??? The distance between the ears! Same goes for Good Sound. Happy listening: .........leo.......... |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10636 Registered: May-04 | . "Jan, this is a 'thought experiment'." OK, let's leave it at that until you come up with something more substantial. "Jan, how old do I have to be to have views?" Hopefully, the day you die. Until then keep an open mind to all things, especially those you have never thought of before and realize how much you have never concieved of. "Hi-End does itself a disservice by making claims which sound to 'regular' people just plain nutty." Yes, indeed they do. But, on the other hand, most people do not have an open mind to anything they construe as "nutty". The Western mind is one of the tragedies of the modern world. We close ourself off to too many opportunities to expand our knowledge simply because we think any other approach is nutty. We are mechanical entities who think everything can and should be measured and will not admit there are many things we do not understand. "Data would help and you need some Engineering types to help gather it and analyze it. Marketing claims VS reality is an issue." I'm sorry, Leo, it sounds like you are falling into a common Western mind set of science. Notice the capital "E" in your Engineering. What does that say about your thoughts? You need to explore the abilities of other cultures to recognize things that are right before your eyes yet you cannot see. You wish to quantify dynamics, clarity and what else? Before you get too far in this mind set, you must realize none of those qualities have any quantifiable relationship to how music is made or felt. If you concentrate on the "felt", Western engineering has little to offer in way of explaining how some of the finest musical instruments do what they do or how the finest musicians perform the tasks they do. Open your mind, Leo, some things do not require quantification, only emotion and intuition. You want to turn art into a paint by numbers schematic. Open your mind, Leo. "What could be measured in say, 1945? Not as much as today and this forced engineers to be more curious and more intuitive. "How have audiophiles 'forced' engineers to do better?" What makes you think they have? Don't forget, "audiophiles" represent about 2% of the population. Do you know of many sales groups that pander to 2% of the population? Have you ever heard of the "Golden Age" of audio? Do you know who recognized and codified many of the theories we take for granted today? "Are things Frozen today?" No, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're getting better. "Do you think that there are new things, yet unthought of, to measure?" I think there are many old things to be realized. "It is by the application of good, verified engineering principles that much of what you know and love has come about." Leo, show me where I said otherwise. But you are still missing the point. Much of what I love cannot be measured and to try to do so only anchors you down to conventional thinking that follows the herd which came before you. Think about what you love, Leo. Do you love a dielectric? "If a statistically valid sample can hear something we can't measure, we need to figure out what it is so we can measure it! That is the road to improvement." Keep plowing that same trough, Leo. You'll get promoted to middle management. Conjure externally to the parallelogram, Leo. By the way, I am a Libra. I suspect you're not. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10637 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/auditorium23/23.html |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10638 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.stereophile.com/historical/1283cable/index.html |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 120 Registered: Jan-07 | replace a few words here and there and it comes out sounding like a religious arguement! It is always the 2%er which drive improvement. most others are content w/business as usual. More western mind set? thanks for links::...............leo.............. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10639 Registered: May-04 | . If the 2% could agree on what they wanted, that might be true. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7660 Registered: Dec-04 | The 2% of us want you 2 to shut up and post something useful. Like something that I can use, being selfish. My lovely partner brings home 2% milk, and this almost as rewarding. Dig? |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 266 Registered: Dec-06 | Jan, What is your reference when auditioning audio equip? I don't think you've made any recent changes to your personal setup but I do believe you've helped others do so. Do you even have a reference or are you listening for something else? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7662 Registered: Dec-04 | Stryvn, I bet the answer is live music,trio Jazz, Quartet jazz or sting, or Symphony, between 35 and 70 pieces. bets? Or a player/singer alone. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 267 Registered: Dec-06 | cd? Or are we asking the philharmonic over for tea and crumpets? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7663 Registered: Dec-04 | The full boat of live musicians. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 268 Registered: Dec-06 | Is there a particular recording or title that really hits the spot? How about you, Art? I believe you to have a good ear. I was going to start a new thread asking this question....All, what is your reference cd? Does this make a difference in leo's science project? Am I off base? Missing the point? A complete moron...I can take it. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10641 Registered: May-04 | . You're certainly not off base asking about references. I hear live music as often as possible. Usually a few times a month. The type is varied, I've done a lot of free concerts sponsored by the symphony players, the museum and the library lately. I get to sit as close as I want to the musicians given the first row is typically no more than 8-10' from the closest player. And the variety of music is fairly wide ranging within my tastes, jazz, Cuban/Latin jazz, classical, organ concerts, chamber music, blues, folk, etc. None of this music is done with amplification so I get to hear the sound of real instruments in a real space. I do not hear much rock as most decent rock musicians do not want to perform for free or for cheap and I've heard too much not decent rock over the years to bother with that. But rock has found less play time on my system over the past few years also. A few months ago I attended a week of concerts hearing live jazz, a 13 hour blues fest, several small classical groups and a performance of liturgical music played on period instruments in a small chapel down the street. For everything Dallas sometimes doesn't have, live music is abundant. I ocassionally record a performance though my recording gear is mediocre at best and I have no chance to do trial runs before it's time to hit record and listen to the live performance. And, of course, I have over twenty years of designing professional systems and selling consumer audio makes for a different reference than most folks have. I've heard most of the reasons people find for choosing what they buy and I've run into my fair share of Eric Grackas. Anyone who has sat through an entire McIntosh clinic has a vast experience condensed into two days. I don't have a "reference" set of discs that I can identify. As always, my tastes run to Elvis, Cash and Clapton, though they've all created less than reference quality recordings. Blues is what spends a lot of time on my system lately with John Lee Hooker, B.B. King, Canned Heat and a few dozen others in regular rotation. Alberta Hunter and Blossom Dearie are favorites because of their sense of style. Those are the discs that are at the front of the stack anyway. . |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 121 Registered: Jan-07 | Are there any fans of the early Telarc d2d stuff? I have a Chopan Piano disk which is awsum....played on a Bossendorf Imperial. Not too closely miked, either, so you have the space. That is another downside to my 'science project', that is there would be little to NO agreement on source material. The above link from Jan refers to pink noise as part of the testing procedure. I can't imagine anyone not being PAID sitting thru that! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10645 Registered: May-04 | . That's the best part of the test, Leo. You get to decide what everyone has to listen to. Not that that helps with the testing procedure but, still, you get to play your favorite stuff. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10646 Registered: May-04 | . And, after twenty years of selling audio, I can remember going home many nights with pink noise and warble tones still running in my head. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 458 Registered: May-06 | Stryvn, I like the idea of the reference library. Mine is about 25 discs and 5 LPs. However mine is not static, I will pull things in, take stuff out. Newest reference is Snow Patrol. Don't remember what it replaced. Leo, How is this for a thought? Unless the engineers knew in advance what I am listening to, perhaps how my vinyl carries the 5 and 6th harmonics better than CD, or how CD really emphasizes the 3rd harmonic they could better prepare to measure for what it is we would, under a "Leo Test Scenario" align with through our preferences. Jan, What was that? A genuine straight forward answer which offers insight to your views and how you achieve them? Cool. Thanks for the insight and insight. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 122 Registered: Jan-07 | Zero chance of agreement on test material! remember 'herding cats'........? If I still had a TT, I'd like any of my old Telarc stuff, and I had what was called a FFRR of Louis Armstrong on tour. The FFRR is Full Frequency Range Recording and the claim was 20->20k with visible LF grooves. Vinyl at its best? Frankly, I welcomed CD, even if there are some sonic differences audible when compared to vinyl. I could NEVER keep a record in a proper fashion and indeed could wreck one at a single glance. My best TT, and it was probably just OK, was a Dual 1209 (last issue to US) with an Ortofon LM cartridge, which I found a revelation compared to the Pickering/Empire/Shurer stuff I had been using. I can see the HeadLines now:: 'Salesman runs Amok' led off screaming: 'Get it out of my head!!' Seriously, how could you take more than 30sec of Warble/Pink?? more than a few seconds of warble makes me physically Ill. |
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