CD Upgrade Opinions Appreciated
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New member Username: Mekongdelta69New York Post Number: 5 Registered: Apr-07 | I realize that asking what piece of equipment somebody would recommend is an infinite proposition. You could ask 1,000,000 people and get 1,000,001 opinions, depending on infinite variables (equipment, room setups, source material, listener's ears, individual tastes, ad infinitum), so I won't ask it quite like that. A little bit of background to help: I'm a tube analogue 'nut' (or w/e word you'd prefer). I have an Acoustic Research (ARC) SP-11 MKII Pre-amp, an (upgraded) ARC VT-100 P.A., a Technics SP-15 T.T. (and studio reel-to-reel and cassette decks, etc., etc., but that's not really relevant to this question). I'm not really crazy about digital (and never have been -- but that's another discussion for another time), but I have approx. 1,000 CDs, because with the music I collect (R&B from the late 40s, 50s and up to the mid 60s), the only way I could get the unreleased/alternate take material was on CDs. So obviously, I need a good CD player as my last piece of equipment. [All the released stuff, I already have on 33s, 45s and 78s.] I've researched this (for what seems like forever) and have looked at every high-end and mid-range CD unit that's out there. What I'm not going to ask if whomever reads this thinks Krell is better than Naim is better than Meridian is better than (fill in the blank here with any maker you'd like). What I am going to ask is your opinion on whether getting an upgraded CD is worth the money or not. I'm going to give you just one link (although I could give tons) to give you an idea of what I mean. This one's for the Jolida JD100a tube CD (either Level 1 or Level 2 upgrade): http://www.underwoodhifi.com/mod_jolida.html#Anchor-JD-28247 As I said, there are all kinds of upgrades to all kinds of units, but for the purpose of this question (discussion), I'll leave it with this one in particular for now. Let me know what you think if you'd care to. Thanks in advance, Mike_____ |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2194 Registered: Sep-04 | Mike, Although the CD medium is inherently limited, it is remarkable how much can be got out of it. Unfortunately, it's also expensive to reap the rewards. There are places where technology has helped here, such as the bespoke software used in the Naim players to lower jitter distortion and in the latest Rega players to read the information off the CD more accurately. There's also strides been made in the methods of bit manipulation, upsampling and oversampling in order to derive a better analogue waveform. Then there's the quality of parts used in the whole process as well as the power supply regulation (the better CD players have mulitple internal power supplies), and even the physical engineering such as the way the transport is held in place in the casing of a Rega player or how the transport is held in a glass reinforced damped chassis in the case of a Naim CD player. With all these variables, you can see that the variation in sound available from a CD player is quite significant, and therefore it stands to reason that if the rest of the system is capable of exposing the differences (and yours should be one of these) then it should be possible to get better performance out of a more expensive player where some money has been spent on R&D. Or in other words...yes! Good luck in your search. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: Mekongdelta69New York Post Number: 7 Registered: Apr-07 | Frank, [Btw, not that this is important, but I just noticed in my first post that I said I had an 'Acoustic Research' pre and p.a. Obviously I meant 'Audio Research'. I must have been thinking of the speaker line when I wrote that -- brain lock, I guess...] Thanks for the advice. So, based on your thinking, would something like what's described in my link be worth the money to spring for? Or, to backtrack a little bit on what I mentioned, what would be your personal suggestions (realizing obviously, that everybody, every setup and everybody's source and tastes are different of course)? [For the purposes of this discussion, let's say I want to spend approx. $1,500 - $2,000.] Is it worth taking a chance on Audiogon and/or eBay or is that just a crapshoot? Thanks again, Mike_____ |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7513 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike, you might want to consider the cost of a quality service(hopefully at the least), for an unseen purchase, know where the good shop is, and maybe call them before you buy? The dealerships, anywhere you? They usually have some stuff that you can feel and test, before you decide. The Jolida was reputed to have an issue, I don't recall it, read it on AudioKarma. I do recall that the first mod fixed the issue. Ain't nuthin' wrong with a tuded cdp, I know too little of your options to help much. Frank's info on newest tech is dead on. The Apollo is not outpaced by the Saturn by too many furlongs. |
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New member Username: Mekongdelta69New York Post Number: 8 Registered: Apr-07 | Nuck, "Ain't nuthin' wrong with a tuded cdp..." >> Do you (personally, that is) prefer a tubed output stage to op-amps or the reverse? "I know too little of your options to help much." >> What specifics would you need to know in order to supply a more detailed answer? Let me know and I'll try to supply what you need. "The Jolida was reputed to have an issue, I don't recall it, read it on AudioKarma. I do recall that the first mod fixed the issue." >> Did you mean the first mod (Level 1) in the link I gave in my orig. post fixed the problem or were you referring to something else? One other note (which I should've originally mentioned). I'm looking for a front-load, as opposed to a top-load CDP because of space constraints. Thanks for your help -- appreciate it, Mike_____ |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7515 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike, the level1 is it. I have 3 or 4 players now, the puter through tubes(a small Asian make) and enjoy the presentation. If you are a tube man, so be it. I have heard the Linn Uni(ouch) and the Cary tube player, the model escapes me) either of which I would rec, but you know more than me about tube cdp's than me, and you listen like you do. Again, do you have a regular dealer? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7516 Registered: Dec-04 | http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5938 Here's one Mike. |
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New member Username: Mekongdelta69New York Post Number: 9 Registered: Apr-07 | Nuck, "...Do you have a regular dealer?" >> No I don't deal with anybody regularly at all. I'd even have to look up where any dealers are, which might be somewhat close to me. It always helps to have a friend in the industry, but unfortunately I don't... Thanks for that canuckaudiomart link. It led me to: http://www.hotrodaudiomods.com/cjojd100.html I compared the prices of the Jolida and the Shanling and they're a lot cheaper. Now I just have to print out each page and do a 'side-by-side' comp. of the actual quality of the components to see if they (somewhat) match up. "...but you know more than me about tube cdp's than me" >> No, actually I don't! As I mentioned in my orig. post, I'm not a 'fan' of digital anything, but I need to get a good CD for the reasons stated above. That's why I turned to you guys for some recommendations. [Btw, just out of curiousity, why did you say, "ouch" after the Linn Uni?!] Thanks again for the link. If everything matches up reasonably well, you might just have saved me some money... Mike_____ |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4885 Registered: Feb-05 | Probably Price. The Linn's aren't cheap. The Jolida and Shanling players have QC issues. The build quality isn't very good. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69New York Post Number: 11 Registered: Apr-07 | Maybe it would be worth it one time to go over my 'budget' and get something like the Rega Saturn. Is there anywhere a person can get it for less than its retail ($2,400)? (I know, I know -- it's my fault -- I started this thread!) Mike____ |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2197 Registered: Sep-04 | Well now Mike, see here, you were the one telling us not to recommend stuff which is why I didn't.  Anyway, let's consider the question in a more mercenary way. You have a very good pre/power amplifier combination. I like Audio Research equipment more than many, and this is in part due to the fact that Audio Research is one of the few tube brands that has a semblance of decent timing. I note the Technics SP15 turntable. It's a good turntable, if not really one with which I am particularly familiar, but it speaks volumes about the level of system you have. I'll assume the speakers will be similarly interesting. You have 1000 CDs. Whatever CD player you have currently (not mentioned) is obviously not doing it for you. Consider what it cost you and when, and this should help you figure what the ballpark figure is for a good enough upgrade, then add some on for good measure. In my opinion, the Saturn would be minimum ballpark. Note that the rega players are both toploaders so obviously not for you. Shame, since they're really rather good. The Naim player in the correct minimum ballpark is the CD5x. Given the type of system, the Naim player may work well, but that said, there are players at this level from all kinds of brands such as Musical Fidelity, Cyrus and if I'm not mistaken Audio Research themselves, but I could easily be wrong about that. Fact is, with that level of system and that many CDs you could spend a lot more than $2400 and reap the benefits, just as you did by going to a reasonable (note - not really up there ) turntable. You need to find a dealer in your area who can show you what's available. With this kind of spend you need the extra service to help you choose the player that suits your requirements. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: GrinsatlakeMt. Juliet, TN USA Post Number: 22 Registered: Mar-07 | Mike B: I owned a Shanling for about a year but after sending it to the shop (across the US) and after that it was still tempermental sometimes, I sold it. I seriously considered Jolida and a Hot Rodded Jolida but I am very happy I went with the Rega Apollo. Mine has been the most musical CD player I have ever owned. I have tried Musical Fidelity, Classe, NAD,Denon (several) and the Shanling. My Apollo with the right cables, cords,etc. blows them all away. For whatever its worth. Good Luck, Rick (flew Mohawks OV1 Long Thanh North (1970) |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69New York Post Number: 12 Registered: Apr-07 | "Well now Mike, see here, you were the one telling us not to recommend stuff which is why I didn't." >> You're absolutely right Frank! I take full responsibility for backtracking! Frankly, this whole thing is giving me a headache. "Whatever CD player you have currently (not mentioned) is obviously not doing it for you." >> Ha! I didn't mention it because I've never had a CDP in my setup. It took me a long time (years) to finally complete my basement and get the equipment for which I'd saved up for a loooooong time. The only CD 'player' (if you can even call it that) I've had up until now is one of those dopey $400-$500 all-in-one (cassette, tuner, etc.) units upstairs in my room (which is where I play my CDs). Now that I'm 95% finished, getting a good, high-end dependable CDP as the last component is my 'mission.' My 'hangup' or 'personality flaw' is that I tend to research everything to death before I get something. I have to learn about every tube, every interconnect construction, every diode -- every everything before I finally get what I want. The upside is that the finished 'product' is a great system (for me, that is). The downside is that it's taken months and years to get it 'right.' That's why it's maddening going through the process, but once it's done -- it's DONE! [BTW, as a side note, the SP-15 table was Technics studio t.t. It was used in every studio and radio station that I ever saw (or worked). They're made to run 24/7/365 and they're perfect for the records that I have (I'm an R&B collector and have been since the 50s).] Anyway, when I mentioned above about the Saturn, I had been up for 24 hours straight (working) and I momentarily forgot they're top loaders. If I remember correctly, you need just over 7" clearance and my shelves are 6 1/2". I've heard good and bad things about every CDP (and every component, for that matter), but with the Regas, I've seen way more thumbs up than thumbs down. Maybe I'll have to break down racks and reposition everything (what a pain)... Thanks for the recommendations and you're probably right -- I'm just going to have to find a dealer somewhere around here and see what I can see (and hear what I can hear!). Thanks, Mike____ |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69New York Post Number: 13 Registered: Apr-07 | Rick, God bless air support! Ours was HAL-3 "Seawolves" (Hueys) and VAL-4 "Black Ponies" (OV-10 Broncos) -- or 'The Pony Express' as I (we) used to call them). Thank God for Mighty Mouse and Zunis. LTN -- you weren't too far north of me. You were somewhere around LBJ and Bien Hoa AB, right? 210 CAB? (or something like that?) [I used to be really 'into' unit decals and history, etc., etc. decades ago, but now I'm probably getting 'Old Timers' disease, so if I'm way off base, just throw me a few 33s and send me on my way!]. Anyway, I spent my 'summer vacation' (and the rest of my tour) on a PBR (TF-116, RivRon59 - Gamewarden) in various 'fun' places (Can Tho, Vinh Long, Sa Dec, etc.). I kept trying to get TDY to Tu Do Street, so I could cruise up and down for chicks (but they didn't go for that, so I had to stay put! But hey, at least I tried!)... Oh yeah, what was I saying?! Yes -- CDPs! Since you saw what I mentioned about Rega (above), I won't repeat it, but you mentioned one thing: "My Apollo with the right cables, cords,etc. blows them all away." >> What ICs and PCs do you use? And more importantly, what is a 'correct' IC and PC for a CDP (as opposed to the tube analog equip. I have)? I happen to use AQ Colorado for all my ICs except Litzlink, which I use between the ARC pre and P.A. (because it's made by and recommended by them as being the most 'suitable'), so I got one set for that purpose. I also use AQ's CV-8 for my spkr. conn. It'd be nice to have 'better' (but then again, I'd like a Rolls Royce too -- but guess what? I ain't gettin' it in my lifetime). Besides I like what I have and it 'delivers' for me (which is all that counts in the end anyway). My question is, do you need a special kind of IC to run from digital (CDP) component to the pre -- or can I use the same ICs I have on the rest of my system? [Remember (from above) -- I'm not 'Mr. Digital' so I'm just asking...] Anyway, it was good 'meeting' you (I can't believe how many 'Nam Vets I've met on the Net through the years. It's really unbelievable.) I even 'bumped' into a guy through some (military or political) forum years ago, who wasn't but 2 klicks north of me in this ville one time, but I never knew him. I'm sure this has happened to a million guys, a million times... Take it easy and thanks for the advice, Mike____ |
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Bronze Member Username: GrinsatlakeMt. Juliet, TN USA Post Number: 23 Registered: Mar-07 | Mike: I am fan of AQ stuff. I have Viper IC's and they are a couple years old. I recently upgraded PC to the Van den Hul "Mainsstream Hybrid Power Cord and it is great. I have tried:Zu Cable Birth PC and one other rec'd brand but I really love the VDH unit. I love the VDH: D-352 speaker wire but I have had great luck with AQ wires in the past. I am researching and trying new stuff as we speak. Limited funds makes me try more stuff through Audiogone and Ebay. I have heard great things about the Kimber PK10 power cord but have not tried. I sorry I don't have better info for you but keep researching and you will find it. An aside: I was very close to you in VietNam and flew mostly night missions around the horn and up into Cambodia and to the edge of Thailand using SLAR and InfraRed Photography looking for POW camps! I am glad we have music now to enjoy. Good luck on your search. Rick "Sodbuster24" Grinstead |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2198 Registered: Sep-04 | Mike, My apologies if I came across a bit flippant - was meant to be a bit jokey....obviously fell a bit flat... Anyway, on to what you were saying - the CD players shouldn't be considered as 'digital' in this case. The outputs you will be using will be the analogue outputs so to all intents and purposes they're as analogue as your reel-to-reel, tuner, whatever. CD player output is around 2V. This is likely to be higher than your reel-to-reel (typically 1V I think in those days) and a good bit higher than your turntable but still compatible with an SP11. Therefore, you simply need to use standard interconnects. What I think Rick meant was that you should choose appropriate cables such as the AQs that have been mentioned. A piece of string won't do here... I imagine that the lack of information of what goes into the CD players is one of the aspects of CD player ownership that frustrates you. I mean, you get overloaded with data about the chipsets, the power supplies, the technologies employed, but much of it isn't very meaningful to a grassroots person who simply wants to play music every now and then. It's not the same as more mechanical devices such as record decks. I appreciate where you're coming from since I had to come to terms with this myself some time ago. Furthermore, CDs are an eighties invention, that of a consumerist obsoletist society. You'll have heard the stories about CD players not being built to last etc. It's all true to a certain extent. The laser assemblies were designed with a 7-year lifespan in mind. The original idea was that the units would be replaced, but it wasn't envisaged that high end manufacturers would begin to put serious money into these things since it was digital and you couldn't get vastly differing results, could you? Then Meridian came out with their first CD player - a modified Philips as I recall - and the ball started rolling. There are players in use today which have 15 or 20-year old mechanisms in them so the assemblies were vastly over-specified for the 7-year specification. That said, modern mechanisms aren't as highly specified as those old tanks. Therefore one wonders what longevity one can expect from these things. Some manufacturers give assurances for the length of time they will be able to service their CD players. Sometimes they have backup stock to ensure they can take care of any repairs for a decent amount of time. This is more usual with the higher end market. In my last response, I was really trying to give you a feel for where in the marketplace you should be looking based on the nature of the rest of your system and the ARCs stood out since they are very revealing and take no prisoners. I still recall hearing a Goldmund Reference record deck through an SP11/D200 into a pair of Martin Logans a dozen years ago, and this wasn't so much listening to music - this was an event! The Goldmund cost around $15k in those days. The Technics is a good record deck. Its primary role was as you say in hardworking professional venues and therefore had to be built like a battleship. However, you don't necessarily need a battleship in a domestic environment and in losing the battleship attributes the manufacturer can use different materials, and different solutions, to provide potentially a better sonic solution - even if it won't last into the next century necessarily. Fact is, if you want to go for a drive in a jungle, you use a 4x4, but if you want to drive fast on a race track, you choose something very different. Same is true for record decks and, to a lesser extent, CD players. Anyway, I just couldn't resist having a pop at your record deck! Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7520 Registered: Dec-04 | We need Rav Bains! I'll email him. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7521 Registered: Dec-04 | Guess who's mail I lost? It was a business addy so it may not be current. Mike, there are a lot of modders out there, and a lot of show reviews on the net. One WOW might not be anything, but a lot of video , show reviews and stuff out there. You might see all that already, I dunno. My buddy has them all, and my main HD crashed today, so I have nothing more to offer. prepares to power down and open the pc. Sorry, just looking for a little pitty there. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4895 Registered: Feb-05 | Definitely get mine Nuck...ouch! |
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Bronze Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 100 Registered: Jan-07 | I have one Silly Question left today, so here it is! Does it matter what CD player MikeB chooses? After all, the music he prefers was all recorded in the 40's / 50's and EARLY 60's........Before any digital technology made it to anyones HiFi. Various technical limits are well below what Any Reasonable player can reproduce. Heck, the wow/flutter of the source material should render any 'pace' / 'jitter' considerations moot. Likewise for frequency response and SNR. Just a thought that occurred to me when I put on my Eric Clapton Blues Breakers album from early 60's. Raw? yep. Garage Sound. You bet. modern refinement of presentation? Not a chance. ................................................. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7523 Registered: Dec-04 | Does it matter what CD player MikeB chooses? After all, the music he prefers was all recorded in the 40's / 50's and EARLY 60's........Before any digital technology made it to anyones HiFi Yes it does, leo, because Mike has 1k in cd releases. It also does because Mike has chosen a rare path...learning before the leap. I'm rootin' for 'im |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 101 Registered: Jan-07 | Nuck, I'll freedly admit to being a 'ready, fire, aim' kind of guy. Quick? yes. Poor impulse control? Without a doubt! But, I couldn't help thinking about some of the old scratchy stuff I hear on XM...... Good tunes for sure, with some incredible performances of great sincerity and heart/soul. To want to learn about something before jumping in is a good thing. I research my brain cell to death before even buying tires! But the limits of the source material proposed is so far beneath ANY current CD player of note that I can't imagine being able to tell much difference between them. Could you tell the difference between an entry level NAD player and the Apollo with this material? Even though I suspect that some of the unreleased stuff may be in terrific shape and even transcribed from original tapes or 'direct' Vinyl. Haven't we entered an era of 'source limited' sound? The reproduction equipment is so detailed and nuanced that you can hear all the way back to the guy coughing in the 3rd row or hear the ventilation system of the concert hall during quiet passages. Old recordings are maybe not the right way to evaluate modern digital equipment. good answer, though, Nuck.... Sorry about your HD. I have had that happen a couple times over the years and it is always a major problem. Now, you get to format/install and try to recover all your software. You'd think I'd have learned proper backup procedures! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4906 Registered: Feb-05 | "Could you tell the difference between an entry level NAD player and the Apollo with this material?" You really can Leo. I listen alot of music from the same era as Mike and let me tell you that the better the player and even more important the better the synergy in the system the better most of that material will sound. Some poorly executed remasters just sound bad, Ella Fitzgeralds "75th Birthday Celebration" comes to mind but most everything I play from my 50's Blue Note jazz to my 30's mono classical discs just sound better now than I have heard them before in my home. I want to add that I think your question was a good one and I appreciate the thought behind it. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7527 Registered: Dec-04 | Great thoughts guys. My system is not one of great nuance, imaging or subltety, although it could be. Everybody hears differently, so I missed the guy coughing. I am sure Art has a superbly detailed kit, Leo, you too, hell everybody wants that, but my commentary comes from a 'flat earth' type of presentation, at least for now(until I finish the downstairs listening room). For absolute detail, I am looking for Mike Wodek to chime in here. Mike has detailed his listening to a finite degree, with Jan swilling Scotch(that I bought) in the same room at the same time. When I get to Dallas this fall, I will get to try out both the kit and the Scotch. Gee, with Mike's 1k in cd's, there must be 400 really good ones! The source material really is everything, otherwise you are listening to the gear, and I am the only one who does that, cause I am a gearhead. Thanks for the HD sympathy, the one that went down had all the photos on it. Fortunately, I have 3 more in the machine to keep it running fine. Did I mention that I have a large puter? Terrabyte anyone? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4909 Registered: Feb-05 | It hardly gets more "flat earth" than Rega, look it up...Nuck. I don't get the coughing audience or the brand of Rosin on the bow...what I hear is the music and the drive. Coherency, meaning, intent those are the words I think of when describing my system, detailed...probably not. I've owned a lot more detailed systems but none as enjoyable. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7540 Registered: Dec-04 | Excellent, Art, the more info the better. It seems that Mike W. is detailed to death, I am as far removed as possible from that and you are likely in between. Great selection! The first post I made with the Rega Apollo was that it seemed out of time(as compared to the Rotel 1072) so there is your proof of how flat I listen! |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 419 Registered: May-06 | "Detailed to Death"? Not yet. However I think the detail is there for anyone to find, yes you too Art, especially you with your system. Nuck, even you can draw it out. It is now my belief that if one puts in the time and effort as most of us have, and Mike B. is doing now, you have the basis for whatever sound you are after. I happen to have a warm, not tube velvety, but a warm and highly detailed sound. My soundstage has depth and outside the speakers width (some stuff is outside the room). I endeavored to build a warm "life like" sound system. I wish I could have the warmth of a MAC Tube amp on some of what I listen to (Diana Krall), but it would not work as well as what I have now for most of the classic rock I prefer listening to, so my system is right for me. Don't get me wrong, I will take Elvis singing "Fever" on my system over most anyone else's. A couple points of reference I have for what I mean is; 1. I own a Gibson Lucille, copy of B.B. King's Lucille. A friend was over a couple of weeks ago and picked it up to play along with B.B. King "Live in Cook County Jail" which was on the TT. He literally joined the band. The pitch and tone he locked in on matched what I was getting from my speakers. 2. I have one of the CDs from Pink Floyd - The Live Experience - For Whom the Bell Tolls". It was recorded in Jack Murphy Stadium using 2 DAT recorders about 8 rows back in the audience. When I put that on I really was brought into that performance. The airiness of the stage performance, the heaviness of the bass, it was like being out in the audience of any outdoor rock concert I have attended. So to me, my system does it. Sorry for the digression but I am taking this path to illustrate that you can find whatever sound you are after with effort. I used to think there were more compromises in doing this than I am now willing to accept with my recent awareness. Example, my Creek 5250 SE as a SS pre-amp into my Carver was crazy "attack" detailed. Not relaxing or enjoyable at all. I have the warmer sound I wanted with my tube pre-amp, sacrificing the detail of the Creek. Now I even have that detail back, without the attack of the Creek, but definitely highly detailed. One example I mentioned to Nuck, I was listening to one of my Pink Floyd CDs (wish I jotted it down at the time which CD and which track) and I heard a background conversation that I never heard before. There are many more examples, but the simple point is that I am re-listening to all of my favorites finding little idiosyncrasies in some tracks that I never heard before. Not all tracks on all CDs, or all cuts on all albums. Some only offer detail to a certain point and no more. Where did all the detail come from? Moving the speakers around, better isolation and balancing of the sources, shifting around of the room treatments, and shuffling the recliner around the room to get what in an earlier post I had described as the "Mother of all sweet spots". It takes hours and hours to do this, but the effort (and in my case, with Jan's patience) pays off. BTW Nuck, it wasn't the scotch you bought as Jan was not in the scotch mood, so only a sip or two of Tomaltin that time. The good stuff comes out the next time Jan and I get together. How's the HD? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7552 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike, thank you for that post, I hoped you would come along. The HD is getting cycled tomorrow. I have a spare to try out. I always have spare amps, too. The 5 channel Rotel is getting dusty downstairs... |
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New member Username: RavbPost Number: 1 Registered: Jun-07 | Hi, I saw my name mentioned and have decided to add my two cents worth. I own a modded machine, and getting the machine modded was a lot of fun, but not really for the feint hearted, since oftentimes you cannot demo the machine before hand. My CD player is an old Sony XA-5ES, which is a pretty solid unit, with a good transport mech. I picked up the machine for about $700AUD used, but luckily for me it was in pristine condition. I have spent over $2000AUD on mods on this machine. The primary mods are fitment of an LC-Audio X03 Clock, and dedicated clock PSU, and a LC-Audio Zapfilter discrete class-A output stage. There are numerous other upgrades on the machine like uprated regulators (Audiocom UK units), upgraded capacitors, and Bybee filters in the RCA outputs. The LC-Audio upgrade modules are extremely well specified units, and are a match for anything, even true high end electronics. The result is a machine that is highly cost effective, and can only be bettered by a commercial machine that would cost in excess of 10K AUD. Taking this route worked for me, but as I said it was a bit of an adventure. In terms of off the shelf units, the Saturn is one of the most cost effective units I have heard. I have now had the opportunity to run my Sony side by side with the Saturn. The main difference was that with the modded Sony unit the sound was out of the speakers and in the room. This is a somewhat coarse evaluation, but this was the main difference, it was noticeable immediately from the first bar of music played. Also the Zapfilter Class-A output stage causes things to happen much faster, without any harshness. Since Mike B is based in NY, he may want to talk to the folks at RAM East, since they perform extensive mods. It may also be useful for Mike to talk to RAM, since even if he does not want to go for a modded unit, RAM should have good knowledge of the virtues and internal engineering standards of most of the stock machines out there. Hope this helps a little, but most likely I am just muddying the waters. cheers Rav |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69New York Post Number: 14 Registered: Apr-07 | Sorry for getting back to everyone so late, but I work incredibly ridiculous hours and I was away for the w/e. First, thanks to everyone for the advice. Secondly, it's easier if I respond (chronologically, as I read them), in one post, rather than separate posts to each person... Rick, Once in a while, we'd go over the fence (aka, 'up a lazy river') but we never found one. I really wish we (or anyone) had. It really burns me that they're (in all likelihood) still there. It's a national disgrace. Meanwhile, back in the world... Frank, "My apologies if I came across a bit flippant." >> You don't have to apologize. I didn't take it that way at all. I was serious about my answer to you above. I started this thread on one track and then backtracked when I found I could get more info that way. That said... Going on what you said, I'll use the same AQ Colorado's for the CDP that I use for the rest of my equipment. (Btw, I don't play my music 'now and then.' I play it all the time! "...and the ARCs stood out since they are very revealing and take no prisoners." >> Boy, you've sure got that right! Re: the SP-15. No problem taking a shot at my Technics! It may not be the world's most expensive t.t. (http://www.bornrich.org/entry/goldmunds-300000-turntable-is-worlds-most-expensiv e-turntable/) and the SP-15 is 'only' worth a couple of grand (of which, the price is irrelevant), but it certainly serves my needs. "There are players in use today which have 15 or 20-year old mechanisms in them so the assemblies were vastly over-specified for the 7-year specification. That said, modern mechanisms aren't as highly specified as those old tanks." >> Then for my needs (reliability, longevity, durability, etc. as opposed to the 'latest cutting edge thing'), would you suggest I look for something [like] an ARC CD1 (from about '96) or something that came out 'yesterday?' Nuck, "My buddy has them all, and my main HD crashed today, so I have nothing more to offer." >> I'm a programmer, so you have my 'condolences.' Just remember to always backup, backup, backup! Leo, Not being anything resembling an expert (or even playing one on TV) on CDs, you may have made the most important comment yet, about which I hadn't really thought about too much before this. Expanding upon what I said in my original post, I'm a record collector. Or, if you'd like, a 'hard core' record collector (which sounds pretentious, but that's not the way I mean it). I'm one of those few people in the country who collect obscure black R&B groups and single artists from approx. 1945-1965 because I've always loved the music. More than a bunch of these records are individually worth more than a 'reference' component. [To use an analogy, just think of the guy who has Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, ad infinitum, autographs (or any other esoteric type hobby)]. However [and this is the important part, 99.9% of these records (or the unreleased/alternate takes on the CDs I have)] is mono. And there's the rub. After I thought about it for a while, it may or may not make any difference at all what kind of CDP I get. That's the part I don't know. While I do have hundreds of (stereo) LPs from the 60s (Hendrix/'psychedelic' type music), the material on 95+% of my CDs will be in mono. Since both my parents were professional violin/piano players in orchestras (NY Philharmonic, Radio City Music Hall, etc.), I've heard enough classical music growing up to last ten lifetimes, which is probably why I don't have any classical CDs! [All the classical stuff I inherited is still in boxes, along with tons of Jazz (Blue Note, etc., etc., etc. -- which I certainly could play on my SP-15 -- if I wanted to)]. The only CDs I have in stereo are a few box sets given to me as presents (Frank Sinatra, several jazz artists, etc.). It all depends on how the source material was mastered/mothered/transcribed/etc. and I can tell you first-hand that a majority of these indie labels and recordings were done in basements, the back of record shops, drive-by recording 'studios,' etc. Except for the 'majors' (RCA, Columbia, MGM, etc.), the original quality was not exactly 'audiophile.' Some of it was barely qualified to be called 'audio'! But that's EXACTLY one of the things I love about it (aside from the actual music, obviously). They used to call me 'Sammy, Surface Noise' because I loved all the imperfections on those 45s/78s/33s. It was 'authentic.' Don't get me wrong though. Although, as I mentioned above, I don't like 'digital' for a lot of reasons, one of the two reasons I do like hearing the same record on CD, which I've had for 50+ years on a 45 is that it does bring out the 2nd tenor taking a breath before the bridge (and all the rest of the stuff you guys know about already). Art, I'm gathering from your post, that although you don't collect the same genre of music I do, you do like/collect music from the same period of time as I do and that you think it does make a difference which CDP you buy. Correct? Mike (W.), I'm not a 'gearhead' (as Nuck mentioned), but I have studied 'to death' hundreds of sites and forums about 'sweet spots,' room design, room treatments, E.E. sites, M.E. sites, ad infinitum in the last few years. I know 1,000x more now than I used to know and about 10,000x less than I wish I knew. However, this is not my 'hobby' per se. My '72 426 Hemi R.R. that I've had since I got out of the service is one of my 'hobbies,' because everybody who grew up in NYC when I did was a street mechanic. I just took it many notches up from there. I have a few other hobbies (like everybody else -- or I should more accurately say, every other guy), but I'm not a 'tube roller' (i.e. 'component roller'). This is the only 'upgrade' I've ever made (all 10 components), because all of my original decent stuff came from PXs all around the world when I was in the service. It's taken me years to research and put all this stuff together, but now I have just about everything I want (for my needs). Since this CDP will probably be the last component I'll ever get (unless I lose my mind and get a parametric EQ for some oddball reason), I want to get it right. Even if I win the Lottery tomorrow, I probably wouldn't upgrade much (except, maybe get some power cords or AQ Sky ICs or something like that). Whatever I have/get now is what I'm probably going to have for the rest of my life (unless some component or other finally gives out). At most, I might send my pre and p.a. to ARC and have them check everything out, but that's about it. It all goes back to my source material. A million dollar setup would be ridiculous for what I have. That being said, in no way am I denigrating anyone who does have this as a 'hard core hobby.' I love all this stuff myself, but unless you're an Electronics/Mechanical Engineer with perfect pitch (which my parents had, but I don't -- I just have relative perfect pitch), it's an endless field (not to mention insanely expensive) and I'm not 25 anymore (nor am I Bill Gates)! That's why I'm doing all this research, so I can find something, which will be a great player, dependable (and all the other qualities I mentioned above) and something that's suitable for what I have. Then, I will descend into my specially built basement, which took 12 years to build and nobody will see me again! Rav, "Since Mike B is based in NY, he may want to talk to the folks at RAM East, since they perform extensive mods." >> I'm assuming you mean Reference Audio (https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/361022.html). Correct? If so, it seems [as opposed to some of the other mod sites, that their mods are more expensive -- which may or may not be applicable in my case (see above).] It also doesn't seem (although I may have misinterpreted their site) like they sell the stock units themselves. I get the impression you have to buy a stock unit and then send it to them (if you want). Correct? Btw, you're not 'muddying the water'! I'll take ANY piece of info/advice I can get my hands on. "The more you know....the more you know"! --------------------------------------------- As an aside, it seems as if everybody on here knows (just about) everybody else (and everybody seems to drink Scotch too). I have a few bottles of Johnny Walker Blue (high-end spirits are another 'hobby' of mine!) Can I join?! Thanks again for the above, Mike_____ |
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New member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 9 Registered: Jun-07 | 1. I'm an analogue guy whose looking for a TEAC or Studor open- real because it's the real McCoy! It's been so long that I have forgetten their exact P/Ns, but I coiuld easily find them out and would certainly recognise them on sight. The TEAC was my 1st introduction to quadraphonic. 2. I switched from vinyl and open-real years ago because their material is viurtually non-existent. What you can find is not worthy of frisby material, and their format is just plain awkward. 3. CD players are a multi-million rip-off scam, with not a one worth the money you pay for them! However, as we are virtually stuck with them and their variants, anything will do the job. Spend a little extra money, but only for quality parts, otherwise you'll be replacing it every year. 4. My 1985 Phillips ($150) plays like a charm - no repairs, skips, jumps or anything of that nature. 5. My 1990 no-name Sony ($279) plays like a charm - no repairs, skips, jumps or anything of that nature. 6. Both CD players have been hooked up to my SoundstageOne Integrated Hybrid Amp ($395 CAD) (galaxy500x@yahoo.ca), along with my Axiom MT60's ($1,200 CAD), and you'd have to be an upper-crust snot not to be impressed! |
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New member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 10 Registered: Jun-07 | 1. I'm an analogue guy whose looking for a 71/2in/sec, 1/4" TEAC, Revox, orStudor real-to-reel because it's the real McCoy! It's been so long that I have forgetten their exact P/Ns, but I coiuld easily find them out and would certainly recognise them on sight. The TEAC was my 1st introduction to quadraphonic. 2. I switched from vinyl and open-real years ago because their material is viurtually non-existent. What you can find is not worthy of frisby material, and their format is just plain awkward. 3. CD players are a multi-million rip-off scam, with not a one worth the money you pay for them! However, as we are virtually stuck with them and their variants, anything will do the job. Spend a little extra money, but only for quality parts, otherwise you'll be replacing it every year. 4. My 1985 Phillips ($150) plays like a charm - no repairs, skips, jumps or anything of that nature. 5. My 1990 no-name Sony ($279) plays like a charm - no repairs, skips, jumps or anything of that nature. 6. Both CD players have been hooked up to my SoundstageOne Integrated Hybrid Amp ($395 CAD) (galaxy500x@yahoo.ca), along with my Axiom MT60's ($1,200 CAD), and you'd have to be an upper-crust snot not to be impressed! |
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Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 11 Registered: Jun-07 | 1. I'm an analogue guy who is looking for a 71/2 in/sec, 1/4" TEAC, Revox, or Studor real-to-reel because it's the real McCoy! It's been so long that I have forgetten their exact P/Ns, but I coiuld easily find them out and would certainly recognise them on sight. The TEAC was my 1st introduction to quadraphonic - memorable and in-grained in my brain. 2. I switched from vinyl, and reel-to-reel years ago because their material is viurtually non-existent. What you find on the used market is not worthy of frisby material, and their format is just plain awkward. 3. CD players are a multi-million dollar rip-off scam, scarcely worth the money you pay for them! However, as we are virtually stuck with them and their variants, anything will do the job. Spend a little extra money, but only for quality parts, otherwise you'll be replacing it every year. Quality-wise, you won't be able to tell the difference (except for those guys who spend $10/ft for their wire and the special maple wood risers which maximise (not minimise - remember capacitance varies inversly between conductor separation) the capacitance between the wire and floor). 4. My 1985 Phillips ($150) plays like a charm - no repairs, skips, jumps or anything of that nature. 5. My 1990 no-name Sony ($279) plays like a charm - no repairs, skips, jumps or anything of that nature. 6. Both CD players have been hooked up to my SoundstageOne Integrated Hybrid Amp ($395 CAD - ask for Miro at 500x@yahoo.ca - I don't get commission) along with my Axiom MT60's ($1,200 CAD), and you'd have to be an upper-crust snot not to be impressed!. |
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Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 12 Registered: Jun-07 | 1. I'm an analogue guy who is looking for a 71/2 in/sec, 1/4" TEAC, Revox, or Studor real-to-reel because it's the real McCoy! It's been so long that I have forgetten their exact P/Ns, but I coiuld easily find them out and would certainly recognise them on sight. The TEAC was my 1st introduction to quadraphonic - memorable and in-grained in my brain. 2. I switched from vinyl, and reel-to-reel years ago because their material is viurtually non-existent. What you find on the used market is not worthy of frisby material, and their format is just plain awkward. 3. CD players are a multi-million dollar rip-off scam, scarcely worth the money you pay for them! However, as we are virtually stuck with them and their variants, and anything will do the job. Spend a little extra money, but only for quality parts, otherwise you'll be replacing it every year. Quality-wise, you won't be able to tell the difference (except for those guys who spend $10/ft for their spaeaker cable and the special honey-glazed, burnished Quebec sugar maple floor risers which maximise (not minimise - remember capacitance varies inversly between conductor separation) the capacitance between the wire and floor). 4. My 1985 Phillips ($150) plays like a charm - no repairs, skips, jumps or anything of that nature. 5. My 1990 no-name Sony ($279) plays like a charm - no repairs, skips, jumps or anything of that nature. 6. Both CD players have been hooked up to my SoundstageOne Integrated Hybrid Tube Amp ($395 CAD - ask for Miro at 500x@yahoo.ca - I don't get commission) along with the Axiom MT60's ($1,200 CAD), and you'd have to be an upper-crust snot not to be impressed!. 7. You can't go wrong with Sony, Denon,Cambridge - just choose your price cut-ff! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2200 Registered: Sep-04 | Eric, Boy are you mistaken! So much so, I don't know where to start so I won't since I can't be bothered... Mike, no I wasn't suggesting buying an older CD1. I was suggesting you check with ARC to see how serviceable the CD1s are, and if they give you the right answers, then you may wish to consider that route. That said, one of the main problems with CD players is the laser longevity, so newer mechanisms mean longer life. Since your recordings tend to be less good quality, I suggest you need a machine which majors on the performance as a piece rather than for one that majors on detail. You may wish to get through the grunge to hear the intake of breath, but there's little point to that if the player pulls the recording apart and makes it unlistenable (a frequent issue with detail freaks). I admit my preference is for the more 'flat earth' approach which puts pace rhythm and timing first, and leaves space, air, soundstage and all that very much second. Therefore, I prefer the likes of Naim and Rega to Cyrus or Arcam, even though all are very good CD players. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7590 Registered: Dec-04 | Eric, if you have not heard, or cannot hear the difference between cdp's, then you have the space reserved especially for someone with 4 consecutive posts. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7591 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike, unfortunately, you are in. also, the scotch club is not inclusive, we shun and exclude inclusiveness on the forum and fortunately, there is none. However, if you keep on tossing out classic recordings, a fine ear, and a taste for single malts, you might find a few(few) here. Remember, this is a teeny tiny part of the online audio world. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69New York Post Number: 15 Registered: Apr-07 | Eric, "I'm an analogue guy who is looking for a 71/2 in/sec, 1/4" TEAC, Revox, or Studor real-to-reel(sic)..." >> First of all, I have a TEAC X-2000R, modified to play 4 speeds (1 7/8, 3 3/4, 7 1/2, 15 ips). It was originally about $1,800-$2,000 but I got it brand NIB for $1,200 from J&R in '92 when they were closing out all their analogue components to switch to digital. 10 1/2 reel cap., etc. and it's never given me any trouble whatsoever. Second of all, why did you feel it was necessary to post the identical comment four times? All you're doing is killing this thread and it's too bad there's not a moderator here who can yank at least the 3 dupes. I'm trying to find out info and get advice and maybe people don't want to wade through 2 screens of the identical info. Frank, I didn't mean to suggest that you were suggesting I get an ARC CD1. I was just using that as an example of a good (but older) company/model. However, (now) knowing that the laser assemblies have a planned obsolescence of about seven years, then it would make sense to get a newer (or brand new) unit. I like having my components in my house, not 'at the shop.' (I'm weird that way!) I'm going to see if I can do something to modify my shelves so I can get one more inch of clearance to accomodate a Saturn (or something close to that). Otherwise, I'll have to limit myself to front-loaders. Nuck, "...we shun and exclude inclusiveness on the forum..." >> Good! I'm the absolute least PC guy on the planet. You have to earn your way in. No A.A. here! "this is a teeny tiny part of the online audio world." >> Oh yeah - I know. I've mentioned that enough on here (and everywhere else). Ten thousand sites, a hundred thousand forums, a million posts and a million and one opinions... Mike______ |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2204 Registered: Sep-04 | Mike, My point was that companies like ARC, Rega and Naim have excellent backup facilities which allow them to extend the lives of their kit beyond the typical lifetimes of said products. They're not superhuman of course, but you can mitigate the problem to a certain extent! As to front loaders, if you liked the Rega (and you haven't said that you do) and you find that 6.5" is not enough, then the Naim players are in the same vein, although I think they do other things too. Incidentally, I think 6.5" is more than enough to be able to use the player. It's just not enough to clear the lid comlpetely. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69New York Post Number: 16 Registered: Apr-07 | Frank, "My point was that companies like ARC, Rega and Naim have excellent backup facilities which allow them to extend the lives of their kit beyond the typical lifetimes of said products." >> Not sure what you mean by 'their kit.' "I think 6.5" is more than enough to be able to use the player. It's just not enough to clear the lid completely." >> Actually, I measured my shelves last night and a few available ones measure 7". The Saturn (for example) is 4" H and 7.086" with the lid open. That means I'd miss by less than 9/100th of an inch. If I went that route, I don't think(?) there'd be any harm if the lid opened all the way, except for 9/100th of an inch. I could live with that. One of the things I would have to decide is if the Saturn is that much better (at 3x the price) for my purposes (i.e. source material). After all this, I sure hope these things are built to last like the rest of my stuff... Thanks again, Mike_____ |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2206 Registered: Sep-04 | 'Their Kit' - their products, what they make. Rega kit is well made, but of course this is performance product. The designers are pushing all the components closer to their performance envelope. It may be completely reliable, but it does need more care and attention than your humble Denons/Pioneers/Yamahas. Of course, my contention is that those others simply don't perform by comparison. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 103 Registered: Jan-07 | Any Single Malt fans out there? I just had a friend give me a bunch of airplane bottles for testing and man, what a treat. I've been a Chevas fan since first taste and have everthing Johnie makes from Black on up, but the 'Singles' are really neat. Chill the Bottle, forget the Ice.............. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4941 Registered: Feb-05 | I have 8 inches between the shelf and the top of the cabinet and frankly I would not want less (for my Apollo). |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69New York Post Number: 17 Registered: Apr-07 | Art, "I would not want less (for my Apollo)." Please explain why not (if you don't mind). [Please refer to my post of Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 08:54 am right above for my setup.] What wouldn't I be able to do (or what would I be constrained from doing)? Ideally, of course, I wish I had more room (as I do with a lot of my other shelves -- I have two six-shelf Salamander Synergy 40s, btw). The top of one shelf set holds my SP-15 and the other top holds the TEAC R-t-R deck. All the rest, except the one above the ARC p.a. contain components (for heat reasons) and the one empty spare. {Obviously of course, this is all contingent on whether I buy that Saturn.} Thanks, Mike_____ |
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Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 22 Registered: Jun-07 | To all arrogant/rude posters (including the ones who believe they have a sense of humour): 1. I posted 4 times because I just got the hang of this sight. 2. As I have mentioned before, do a blind A/B test using CDs. After an honest salesman tells you what you've listened to, you will instantly recall everything that you've read on each of these players, choose the most technologically advanced one, and invariably choose the most expensive one, or the one which most closely fits your budget. 3. Most of you remind me of a person who was given two pieces of wire by a salesman who labelled one Monster Wire, and the second one Radio Shack. After hooking both pieces of wire to a splitter amp, asked you to do an A/B test, and after telling you which was which, using your superior aural gift was able to distinguish between the two. 4. The point of this post is to use your engineering skills (if you have any), or talk to someone knowledgeable - don't go by author-paid articles in glossy magazines, or water cooler-gab. 5. Do some analysis, and try to do some thinking of your own. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2211 Registered: Sep-04 | Eric, With respect, that's precisely what they've been doing. Also, if you look at a lot of the responses on this forum, you'll see that your point 5 is one of the most common responses people get. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 18 Registered: Apr-07 | EG, ""To all arrogant/rude posters..." >> The only one who fits that description on this thread, would be you... "I posted 4 times because I just got the hang of this sight." >> And you're an 'engineer'??!! Yeah, I guess 'getting the hang' of a site is REALLY complex! [Good job of killing this thread though...] I was going to write a long diatribe, but after reading most of the rest of your posts on the other threads, I came to the conclusion that arguing with you would be like arguing with sheetrock....except for one minor difference. Sheetrock serves an actual useful purpose in this world... ------------------------------------- And now back to the show... Not that anybody particularly cares (especially after EG effectively crushed this thread with his 'witticisms,' (just when I was getting some good info)), but with Art's great referral, I decided to get a Saturn (and got a pretty good deal). So, thank you to everybody and especially Art [Btw, did you get my e-mail I sent this morning? Sometimes (more often than not), they don't reach their destination.] I guess it'll take a few weeks to get here and then I'll see if it sounds as good (in my basement) as everybody (without exception) says it is. If so, then it will have been worth the money. I'll let you know... Thanks again, Mike____ |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4981 Registered: Feb-05 | I did get your email Mike, congrats on an excellent purchase. Look forward to reading your impressions once you get your new Saturn. Speaking of airheads I thought I replied to your email this morning. So much goin' on in the last couple of days...again congrats...you will be jammin soon. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2220 Registered: Sep-04 | Congratulations Mike, I hope it fits.. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7643 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike, you sure didn't go wrong. I thoroughly enjoyed the demo Mike Wodek and I did together. Run it in and keep it warm before listening, it changed it's presentation after an hour playing. Cheers! |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 21 Registered: Apr-07 | I'll let you know -- should be here (hopefully) within the week... Thanks again, Mike____ |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2246 Registered: Sep-04 | It should be good out of the box, but it takes at least 48 hours to really get that cohesive flowing sound you've heard. Put it on Repeat for a couple of days and let us know how you get on. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: KnightshadeTaunton, Somerset England Post Number: 33 Registered: May-04 | Put a set of these under your CDP and enjoy the sound of a new CD player,http://www.audiodestination.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11_93&p roducts_id=122 They make a difference under a CD12 which is annoying to say the least.... |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2249 Registered: Sep-04 | Hmm, Rega use compliant feet for a reason. They're not very compliant (unlike the original planet) but they are a bit compliant. Introducing these hard feet would change the sound, but I wonder whether they would improve it. That said, never say never... Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: KnightshadeTaunton, Somerset England Post Number: 34 Registered: May-04 | The bearings give a very small point of contact, and the wood acts as a dampener, simple but very effective. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 27 Registered: Apr-07 | I started writing a long, highly esoteric, 'deep' post (pretending to know what I'm talking about  ) and then I deleted it, restarted it, re-deleted it and then decided to read the entire thread from the beginning -- and realized that I've already said most of what I was going to say in this post (Thank God -- that just saved me an hour or so)! Well, the Saturn finally came -- three weeks after I ordered it. It had to go from England to Chicago to the Left Coast and all the way back to the East Coast, but it made it intact. But first, before I forget, I want to thank Frank, Nuck, Rick, Leo, Mike (W.) for all the help and the great information -- and especially Art, for recommending to me the place where I got it. Good price, great service and really nice guys. Let's see -- where to start. It came Saturday afternoon, so after taking an hour or so to read everything and setting it up with a pair of AQ Colorado's that I had and the stock power cord, which came with it, I locked myself in the basement with the four essential food groups for vets (beer, snacks, coffee and cigarettes) and proceeded to 'break it in.' .... I wound up shutting everything down at 9 A.M. on Sunday! Damn, but that's a great CDP! I'm not going to get into mentioning 'pace, rhythm, timing, space, air and soundstage,' etc., etc. because I'm hardly the right person to be mentioning all those things without sounding completely pretentious and ignorant. What I can say, to my ears, is that it sounded 'warm.' Much better than I thought a CDP could sound. As I said way above, I've always hated digital for many reasons, three of which being the lack of (solid) bass, shrill and thin highs and NO presence. Granted, these impressions were all from listening to CDs when they first came out and then again about 10 years ago. The only other time I've ever bothered using a CDP is that dopey $500 bookshelf unit I've had in my bedroom forever, so I could have something on which to listen to all those CDs I have (which, as I explained above, I had to have, just to get all the unreleased/alternate material, which never came out on vinyl/plastic/shellac). As Leo mentioned above, the source material is very relevant. 95% of all the stuff I have on CDs is mono. However, I did play samples from the few stereo CDs I have (Sinatra box set, Dean Martin box set, various jazz box sets and the Woodstock box set), along with a minute sampling of 'good' (meaning, quality companies -- i.e. Ace, Bear Family, Charly, etc.) mono R&B CDs and then a bunch of bootleg, mono R&B CDs. [In my hobby, bootlegs aren't what you think. Most aren't made 'in the basement,' but they're not high-end studio (RCA, Capitol, Columbia, etc.) type CDs either.] I listened through the speakers and then listened through a set of AKG 701 headphones (I know, I know -- I should use the word, 'cans,' but for some inexplicable reason, I hate that word!). This will be hard to explain to people that don't collect the kind of stuff I do (see above), but there's NOTHING that beats holding an original, rare 45 of some fantastic song that you love and that's 'part of you' and playing it on the turntable, 'warts' and all. It's a piece of history. It's like a piece of candy. Sure it has (some) surface noise, but it's supposed to have (some) surface noise! That was part of the experience back then. Besides, that's what a Nitty Gritty Pro 1 Mk3 is for (or a Keith Monk, if you can afford it!) So, does the Saturn match that magic? No - BUT, it sure came damn close -- and this is coming from a HUGE digital cynic (have I mentioned in my previous 20 million posts that I HATE digital!!!?) With the ARC pre and p.a. being tube (a must for listening to my music the right way), and the perfectly modded speakers (again, perfect for my music), it really did a hell of a job. In addition, the old cliche really holds true -- although I wasn't listening for it, I could always hear that 2nd tenor's breath (see above) that wasn't (readily) present on the 45 (or 78 or LP). Btw, when I say, "2nd tenor's breath," that's just a virtual phrase meaning, any and all details not (readily) apparent or not heard at all on vinyl. [C'mon - you know what I mean!  ] The only two 'complaints' I have about the Saturn is: 1.) Unless I'm missing something, the RCA outputs aren't gold (or gold plated). 2.) For a $2,500 (MSRP) deck, the remote is pretty cheesy looking and has that 'plastic-y' feeling, and it's way too long. The remote on my cheapo bookshelf CD unit seems sturdier (and looks nicer). However, those are minor things, which aren't going to detract from all the rest of the positives. I plan to do a lot more playing and A/B comparisons to the original records, but in all honesty, I don't think I even have to (comparisons, that is. Playing - yesssss!). This damn thing is GOOD. I almost bought an ARC CD-1, then I almost bought an ARC CD-3 MKII (that one was really tough to pass up at the price I saw), but in the end I wanted a brand new (not used) CDP. I even toyed with getting an ARC Reference CD-7, before I smacked a beer bottle over my head! It came down to the old law of diminishing returns, diminishing wallets, source material and finally and most importantly, each person's HEARING ABILITY. It's like giving a shot of Johnny Walker Blue to a wino or demo-ing some sound system to Helen Keller or showing a $50 million Picasso to Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder (remember the Eddie Murphy skit?!). All crude examples, but all true. In the end, after all the years of research, the thousands of forums, the millions of opinions, the infinite number of combinations and permutations of every conceivable component and material and engineering, ad infinitum -- it ALL comes down to what sounds good to YOU and YOU ALONE... ...And ain't that what it's supposed to be all about? So, once again, thanks again to everybody above for everything and coming from a (digital) 'layman' and 'despiser of bits,' I would absolutely recommend the Saturn to anyone if they asked (not that anybody on this board needs any recommendations from me!)... Mike______ P.S. ...And this was supposed to be an 'abbreviated' post. Hahahahaha . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7878 Registered: Dec-04 | Great post, Mike. Lots of emotion about the music, and whack in the head with a beer bottle for action. After running through a thousand more pieces of music, I bet you will have a lot of new old favorites! Enjoy! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5086 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks Mike for one of the most enjoyable posts I've read in quite sometime. Cheers! |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 513 Registered: May-06 | Enjoyed your opinion Mike! You are not missing anything about the RCA connectors but I doubt if it makes any difference. I am using Radio Shack RCA Connectors on my DIY ICs and am pleased with the results. Did you look at the bottom of the Saturn? That impression should more than make up for anything negative you feel about the physical build. As to the hand controller I agree with you, but if Rega was looking to cut costs someplace I rather it be there and the ICs they provided than anywhere else. I agree with Nuck and look forward to your follow up as you are now a "fellow" Saturn owner. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 28 Registered: Apr-07 | "Did you look at the bottom of the Saturn?" >> Definitely Mike. Overall the Saturn looks great (although that's not why I finally picked it). I wanted something new, which would last a long time and be very high quality. The RCA outputs don't affect the 'look' (because they're obviously in the rear). I was just sort of surprised. I agree with you about what you said concerning the remote (and like I said, cosmically, it's no big deal -- my social life will somehow stumble on!). The remote just seemed 'out of place' with the unit. Since I moved one shelf up 1", I have more than enough clearance now for the top-loading drawer. I really like that feature, since there's no wear on any mechanized feed drawer (and yes, it looks and feels 'cool' too!). Now all I need is for somebody to turn me back to 25 again, so I could listen to the tens of thousands of hours of music I have all over again. Which thread on this forum takes care of that?! . |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 324 Registered: Dec-06 | Well, you could head over to Music Selections for the speaker guys in "speakers" and tell us about it. Won't make you younger, but it might influence someone with more time than less. Congrat's on the purchase and great review, Mike. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 29 Registered: Apr-07 | "Won't make you younger, but it might influence someone with more time than less." >> Hey -- I used to be young!  As far as the music selections go, I highly doubt anyone would have ever heard of anything I collect/listen to. There are only about 250-300 hard-core collectors in the country of R&B black groups from '46 - '65 (especially from the early/mid '50s). I could try, but I'm sure I'd get a response like, "Huhhhhhhhhh, wth are you talking about?" [Don't worry -- I'm used to it -- and have been since the 50s.] . |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 325 Registered: Dec-06 | naw...it's cool Mike. The thread ain't for criticism. It's to throw stuff out there. Opinions left behind. Culture. Lay it on me (us). |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5091 Registered: Feb-05 | That's it Stryvn...let us have it Mike.... |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 31 Registered: Apr-07 | O.k., o.k., I will! Down the line, I'll post a bunch of stuff. Right now, I'm just A/B ing CDs to the original records. Nothing beats vinyl (or shellac), but the Saturn does a pretty good job, depending on whether the tracks were taken from master tapes or just dubbed from the records themselves. I haven't dug out the fewer 'later' things I have (i.e. my version of 'later' means the Woodstock CD box set!) and compare it to the LPs. So far, I have no complaints. Works perfectly and sounds great (considering the source material I've played so far). And I finally found (and got rid of) the hum emanating from my tonearm and I'm getting a Nak. Dragon to replace my old, (now) cruddy cassette deck, so things are 'getting there.' So Art -- before I demo those Orchids and the Mainserver, do you really swear by them (as if they'd make some 'magical' difference) or are we talking about the law of diminishing returns again? [I know everything's subjective, but I'm just trying to get some kind of rough idea...] Thanks again for that referral, Mike______ |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2266 Registered: Sep-04 | Mike, I have a couple of CDs which are transcripts from old (1930s and 1950s respectively) Art Tatum (possibly cylinders) and Oscar Peterson recordings. Yes, there's loads of hiss and noise but if you can hear through that (and lots of people can't, sadly) the performances are fresh and spontaneous, and positively spellbinding! With regard to your two complaints: 1. Rega use nickel RCAs because they conisder nickel connections to sound better. All their units use nickel connections as far as I know (Naim are also of the opinion that nickel sounds better than gold anodising, interestingly). 2. At least you get a remote control. In the old days (5 years ago?) you had to buy one as an extra!!! Glad to hear you're enjoying your new player. You should have left it on Repeat for a few days to really burn in. If you do switch it off when not listening to it, it takes a good 15 - 20 minutes to warm up at the least. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 32 Registered: Apr-07 | Frank, "Rega use nickel RCAs because they consider nickel connections to sound better." >> Never heard that before, but I have now. I always thought gold (and silver) made the best conductors, but I'm hardly an engineer and they obviously know 1,000x more than I do. Hey, as long as it works well... "If you do switch it off when not listening to it, it takes a good 15 - 20 minutes to warm up at the least." >> I did burn it in (by using it and listening to CDs). I do turn it off (along with everything else when I'm not using my gear). However, since my pre and p.a. are tubed, whenever I turn on everything (all 11 components), I warm them all up for about an hour to allow the tubes to stabilize properly and in the process, everything gets warmed up for about an hour. Thanks, Mike_____ |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2271 Registered: Sep-04 | Mike, In order to really get it going, put a CD in and play it as soon as you switch on the Saturn so it will warm up more quickly. Tube components warm up quickly because they dissipate so much heat. Although the output stage of the Saturn is Class A, the rest of it isn't and it benefits from getting a workout before being listened to 'properly'. Try it and see... Cheers, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 35 Registered: Apr-07 | Frank, Since I'm never in a rush, I turn on all my components (all 11 of them!) at the same time I turn on all my tubed gear (in the proper order -- of course ). The S.S. units don't take long to 'warm up,' but the ARCs do (if you want to get the best sound from them) and the other tubed gear takes a while too. By the time the tubed stuff is warmed up (while I'm doing other things), the S.S. units are way past being 'good to go.' However, I'll give what you said a try, although from the sound of what you're describing, it seems to resemble weight lifting w/o doing any warm-ups (which is NOT fun!)... Just curious -- what IC and PC do you use for your CDP? Tnx, Mike____ . |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 556 Registered: May-06 | Probably shouldn't take any longer to get your system at the "sweet" level than it takes to get your Hemi singing. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8032 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike's Saturn was best after an hour, the Apollo get an hour anyhow(for me), but plays fine on a cold start. After that hour, things really play well. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5101 Registered: Feb-05 | Mike's Saturn...I thought you had a Saturn. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8034 Registered: Dec-04 | Nope Art, I got Mike's preloved Apollo. And his Monitor Audio 8i speaks. And the DCM Time Window 1a's. For a price that is immoral to disclose. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 566 Registered: May-06 | DCM Time Window 3 (three of them) not 1a's. http://r.duffy.home.att.net/dcm/ |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 38 Registered: Apr-07 | "Probably shouldn't take any longer to get your system at the "sweet" level than it takes to get your Hemi singing" >> Trust me -- I've spent more time with my feet sticking out of the hood, energy, money and grief in the last 35 years than I even want to think about. Slight differences between then and now: Hardly any muscle car speed shops around anymore. Most of the mechanics (beside myself) that I knew have retired or semi-retired. Parts are really hard to get. Leaded gas is very hard to get (have to go to the track). High octane (108+) is very hard to get (same track). It still costs a lot of time, energy and money to keep it up -- none of which I have much (to spare) anymore. Oh yeah -- Gas was 19c - 25c before the oil embargo of '73. Now -- well, you know what it is now. One gal. today costs almost as much as it used to fill up my 21 gal. tank. 8mpg./street; 12mpg./h'way (fully tuned) doesn't get it anymore. Cost me an hour's worth of work to get out of my driveway! {Odd fact (of interest to no one) -- that Mopar is the newest car I've ever had.} I wouldn't know what to do with a new car. You can't work on them; the manual that comes with them is as large as a Ph.d Thesis; everything's electronic; you want more hp -- you change a chip! There'd be no fun driving anymore. I can tell you every single make/model of every car from '49 - '73. After that, they're all either one little box or one little bubble. They've got no character, no soul, no fun. More people knew me by my car (which you could/can hear a block away w/the Headers (this forum censors the brand name of the most famous Headers there are) -- can you believe that?!!) than knew me personally I think. Back then, just about everybody had a muscle car. All chick magnets and all could blow away anybody in the 1/4. I've been offered a ton of $$ many times, but that and the music are part of me. You take away those and you'll find me huddled up in a corner, driving a Yugo, listening to Muzak on an iPod just waiting to be carted off to Bellevue or Creedmore. No thanks... . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5103 Registered: Feb-05 | Sorry Mike can't agree. I've owned everything from a '65 Mustang and a '66 Charger to an AMC Javelin...by far my favorite car is my 2004 Mazda 3 hatch...tons of fun without the hassle. And I brought my 50 inch rear projection TV home in it (in the box). I love new cars! |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 39 Registered: Apr-07 | No problem Art. I'd rather have a blond in the back seat than a plasma any day!! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5106 Registered: Feb-05 | My wife wouldn't approve...lol! |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 140 Registered: Jan-07 | When I told my wife it was 'a Miata or a Mistress', she took me down to the dealer. But I ended up with an S-2000. Fast, stable and starts every time. Unlike it's British predecessors, doesn't need a tuneup when the weather changes. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 40 Registered: Apr-07 | "Fast, stable and starts every time." >> Wait - that sounds like my mistress. How do you know her? Git yer own! Btw, Art -- those Orchids and the Mainsserver came today so I could try them out. For a minute, I couldn't even find the Orchids in the box! They're so thin -- they look like bare wire wrapped in a sheath. I'll try them both out this w/e and see if I hear any difference. Thanks, Mike____ |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2277 Registered: Sep-04 | Mike, Sorry for taking so long to reply and for bringing the thread back on track (very interesting reading about mistresses)... I use the stock power cord on the Naim CDX2 (anything else I've tried has not helped the sound, to put it mildly, although I could be tempted to try the Chord one) and I'm lucky to be using a Naim HiLine interconnect between the CDX2 and AV9. My complete system is in my profile by the way. Now about those mistresses... Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 568 Registered: May-06 | Mike B. Back to the track, I have had a few fun vehicles which I could tinker with under the hood for hours. None as fast as yours, a couple close, all sweet. '64 Buick Lasabre with a 310 Wildcat engine (sleeper) '67 Plymouth Fury III - 383 bored and BB to 400+, hemi-converter, stall kit, risers, etc. No aerodynamics, had to shut it down at 120 with the wind, 105 into the wind as it felt like I was driving an 18' Ranger, not a car. '68 Corvette convertible - 327 version black on red '72 Dodge Charger - 318 w/ Dana / nasty '72 Buick Skylark - 350 too tame '89 Corvette Roadster - road hugger extreme, just not fast enough. '95 BMW 525 - Refined but fun '99 Mercedes SLK - unrefined more fun Charger was the best of the bunch, not a chick magnet, but oh the things I could do with it.... wish we were neighbors. Cheers! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1437 Registered: Nov-05 | No wonder the world's fuel supplies are depleting. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 141 Registered: Jan-07 | No, it isn't gas hog cars, it is people who insist on Very inefficient speakers and over-powered amps! just ask Jan. Would you believe my S-2000 gets 50mpg? How about 40mpg? OK, <30. But nobody that buys a hobby car cares about gas mileage any more than an audio buff cares about the electric bill! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1438 Registered: Nov-05 | Well I ride a cycle attached to a generator when I switch on our audio gear. I don't expect the rest of the world to pay for my pleasure. Now, this is a smiley face, just like the one in my previous post. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 142 Registered: Jan-07 | I know, but here in California we have some of the highest energy bills imaginable...pay more for electricity, water AND gasoline than probably anywhere else in the lower 48. There are ads admonishing 'us' to conserve more, when Californians already are in the leading edge of conservationism. (except for love of SUV) I rode a bicycle back and forth to work for about 2 years, when I lived about 8 miles eachway.....and believe me, riding home at 1am with a bunch of drunks on the road some friday nite is NO treat. I almost ended up under the wheels of some babes Buick because I was interupting her reckless driving, the week before Christmas. The sale was on. Years ago, in my urge to help, I even had a Sunkyoung Cycle Mower! You had to be in near-Olympic cyclist shape to mow 2000ftsq of yard. It didn't last. Now the dirty rats want to take away my Charcoal Grill.............. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1439 Registered: Nov-05 | Well, you certainly did your bit. Go out and buy yourself a big V8, you've earned it! LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5111 Registered: Feb-05 | "Now the dirty rats want to take away my Charcoal Grill.............." Blasphemy! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8047 Registered: Dec-04 |  Good Gosh, the Heathens! Next thing you will have to trade in all your incandescent bulbs! |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 143 Registered: Jan-07 | Yep, that's coming. And this while the governator USED, and still might, own a veritble FLEET of H-1s. It's good to be king. Thanks for good laugh, kids. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8055 Registered: Dec-04 | Wait, ther's still the R2 supercharged Studebaker to go. The Hawk? |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 147 Registered: Jan-07 | Actually, Nuck, If you want to get 'technical', the one you want is the Avanti.....a real GOER and LOOKER.......insta-classic and still desirable and collectable. But you seem more the Hudson Hornet type, to me! The Hawk was so Ugly, it frightened me when I was a kid.....kind of a Chicken Hawk. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8059 Registered: Dec-04 | I'm a rootin' tootin' popgun shootin' lassoo loopin' chicken hawk. Please forward all Warner Bros. posts to my email. |
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Silver Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 149 Registered: Jan-07 | That's all, Folks. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8083 Registered: Dec-04 | For car guys, take a look here for a great free emag. I have all copies backed up. www.windingroadonline.com David E is editor, and you will find a lot of familiar names there. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 42 Registered: Apr-07 | Mike W., "'67 Plymouth Fury III - 383 bored and BB to 400+, hemi-converter, stall kit, risers, etc. No aerodynamics..." >> Nyuck -- ain't dat da troof Roof! That's why I was considering buying a Superbird at the time. Gabriel Hi-jackers with extensions and heavy-duty leafs -- even with the torsion bars, I f-l-o-a-t! What I have is meant for the 1/4 -- and the gas station! Bored and stroked and blueprinted w/a 411 Dana posi rear (I know, I know -- 456 would have been better, but I needed something for 'everyday' too and the 456 just wound out too quickly). I wouldn't even begin to list all the stuff I've done to mine or this post would be longer than that SP-15 post I had in the phono section on here! Put it this way -- just pop the hood and you'll see a giant wallet in there (mine), along with too much blood and skin (mine again). Tends to block out the chrome! Oh well - it kept me off the streets....hmm, on second thought -- it kept me on the streets! Just another misguided 'yout' cruising for girls -- ahh, wth -- it was worth it... "wish we were neighbors." >> That would've been cool (back then). Girls, cars, records, amps, beer (THAT'S what America used to be -- these days, pffft). Nowadays, I have to substitute the J.W. Blue in that equation for the girls (I'd rather it was back then. J.W. Blue is great, but nothing beats girls!!). Besides, didn't you say (or was that somebody else) on one of these posts somewhere that some of you guys on this board were all part of the 'exclusive' Texas scotch club?! I only have one link to Texas and that's my friend Bobby O'Malley (we grew up in the same neighborhood), who's a CMOH Recipient and lives in Goldthwaite (he was in Vietnam 4 yrs. before I was -- but then again, our entire neighborhood made a trip to rice paddy land back then...) . |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 43 Registered: Apr-07 | "Gabriel Hi-jackers with extensions and heavy-duty leafs -- even with the torsion bars" Oh brother - I must be really tired (working all night again). I meant to say traction bars (bolt-on)... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8144 Registered: Dec-04 | For the street just turn hard till the suspension bottoms out on the '66 Olds Dynamic 88 and pray for the tires to hold up. With a 455 yanking your front end straight ahead. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 596 Registered: May-06 | Nuck, Wasn't that front wheel drive????? Mike B. You were so much better off with the 411 vs. the 456. My '72 Charger had the Dana 411 and all I could afford for the back were 70's. I would be across the intersection before anybody else got past the crosswalk. Scared enough folks (actually everyone) just to back off and shut it down. All street, no track. What nobody knew was it was a short stroke 318 under the hood that wound out around 90 to 100 mph. Anybody decent could have come back at me in the end. Sorta like Texas Hold Em in a way. PM me icw Mr. Robert O'Malley, if you can get him my info dinner is on me. That said, logistics willing. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 45 Registered: Apr-07 | Maybe I'll trade everything in for a Rolls Royce Stretch limo -- with a chauffeur of course  Hmmm, do R.R.'s come stock with 4 and a 1/4 horse?! Where's my winning Lotto ticket? I KNOW I had it somewhere around here. Let me look... |
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Bronze Member Username: Mekongdelta69Grew up in Brooklyn an... Post Number: 46 Registered: Apr-07 | Btw, thanks Frank for getting back to me. I guess this will just have to be something I'll try out for myself. I'm skeptical, but I'll see what happens... Mike____ |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8155 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike, the FWD were the Toronado and the yabbida yabbida. Cadillac Eldorado, that one with the 502 engine. F...W...FUKIN...drive. |
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