Bryston B60RP
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1864 Registered: May-05 | I can get a great deal on one. Manufactured 10/99, meaning under warantee until 10/2019. According to the seller, this one has the SST output and specs. It was one of the last ones made without SST written on it. "RP" means remote and phono section. I'm a big fan of Bryston. Their build quality, customer support, sound quality, and on and on. As long as I can confirm the product is covered under warantee by the manufacturer, I think Bryston and their 20 year transferrable warantee probably make the safest bet buying second hand. The price will be a few bucks cheaper than a new Mira 3 that I'm still coveting. If I can confirm warantee coverage and SST output by contacting Bryston, what do you think? Has anyone heard one with a Rega Apollo? Any opinions on synergy? If not heard together, theoretical synergy? Any particular speakers they like best? The last time I heard a B60 was about 8-10 years ago. I remember it sounding amazing. But I must admit, I don't remember the rest of the system, and therefore it could have been a best case scenario which is out of my league financially. This model is supposed to be better than the model I heard. Nuck, I think you've got some pretty good Bryston expereince. Strangely, I can't recall having heard Art's take on Bryston. Any and all opinions are greatly appreciated. I don't think I have much time to ponder this. What do you guys think? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7364 Registered: Dec-04 | http://www.bryston.ca/warranty.html Stu, to be honest, the last 2 listens I had with Bryston(amps) left me a little bit put out. The dealer had a 4B ST at the store for me to A/B with the Classe ca200 when I bought that stuff. The Bryston seemed a little 'coarse' in comparison. That was using unbalanced connections, but that should have no effect on the way it sounded. I found absolutely no noise from the amp. The other was a 3B ST, but I heard that setup the day after a rock concert, so toss that one out. Scanning the warranty info, moving parts are 3 years only. Further down there is something on 5yr electronics warranty as well. Giving up on the whole system synergy before living with a whole Rega might be something you regret? However, if the price is very good on the Bryston, you should be able to recover some, or all, of the cost at a later date. I have no idea on the quality of the phono from Bryston at all. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4793 Registered: Feb-05 | Last time I listened to Bryston it was their biggest power amp with another manufacturers tube preamp driving Thiel speakers. It did sound very nice but I believe the $5500 tube preamp had a lot to do with it and I don't think that I would buy one for the Rega gear. It's a mismatch in my opinion. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1865 Registered: May-05 | Interesting views, guys. Thanks a bunch. I just found a Bryston dealer about 20 minutes from my house that has one on display. Seeing as how I'm on vacation this week with no where to go, I'm going to drop in and have a listen. I'll let you know how it goes. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1866 Registered: May-05 | As it turns out, the shop didn't have a B60 on display, they only had the B100. I misunderstood what he was saying over the phone. Anyway, the salesman was very helpful. He owns a B60, so he had a lot of insight on it. I heard the B100 and Bryston lowest seperates. The main differences were noise floor and low level listening. They weren't very big, but just enough to say so. He told me to expect a tad more of a noise floor from the B60. I really liked what I heard. Its kind of hard to describe - it was very slightly forward, not bright or warm, very well balanced, and tonality seemed dead on. Its a very honest presentation. The only thing it lacks is that last bit of PRaT. The salesman said that the B60 sounds the same, just with a little higher noise floor, and a little less power behind it. So here's what I'm currently pondering - Do I want to sacrifice that last little bit of PRaT for that last little bit of resolution? If so, will the Apollo and B60 bring out each other's best charecteristics, or their worst. From what I heard in the Bryston gear, I think it should be a pretty good match. But will it be as good as the Mira/Apollo match? They're both very musical, just in a slightly different way. I heard the Bryston gear with Arcam's entry level FMJ CD player, B&W 603, 704, and the entry level PMC passive monitors. The Brystons and PMC are are great combo. If I go the Bryston route, I'll most likely go with PMCs too. Regarding the warantee coverage, B60s have the full 20 year warantee. The moving parts thing is for when they come out with CD players (the dealer said they have a working prototype they're fine tuning). The volume control is covered under the 20 year warantee. The DAC section in their gear is covered for 5 years, and the rest of the piece is covered for 20. The one I'm looking into doesn't have a DAC built in. I think I'm going to sleep on it. Let me know what you guys think. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1867 Registered: May-05 | Bryston confirmed the warantee is intact, and confirmed what the dealer told me regarding what is and isn't covered. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 204 Registered: Dec-06 | Is it worth taking your Apollo in there to give it a listen with the B100, Stu? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1868 Registered: May-05 | I didn't want to do that. The guy was doing me a favor so to speak. I didn't want to make the guy switch out CD players, amps, speakers, etc. I told him up front that I was looking into buying used from someone else. He was a great guy and didn't mind helping me out at all. I think asking him if I could bring in my own CD player would have been a little too much. The person I'd be buying from isn't close enough to be able to audition it with my gear. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1870 Registered: May-05 | Scott, I got the CDs a week or two ago. Thnaks a lot. They're pretty good. Sorry I didn't write back, but I've been a little busy on my so-called vacation. With the great chore list Mrs. Stu has given me, I sometimes ponder going back to work and telling her I got called in. I'm using up comp time I've accumulated over the school year that I have to use before June 30th. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7368 Registered: Dec-04 | Stuie, clean the home? A little dusting? hehehe |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 205 Registered: Dec-06 | Fair enough, Stu. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1872 Registered: May-05 | Nuck, You know me too well. Well, at least when we go to Mexico in July, I won't get stuck cleaning the hotel room. Then again... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4796 Registered: Feb-05 | IMO Stu buying the Bryston should have something to do with a whole system approach. Keep in mind that Arcam will go far better with Bryston than will Rega and so too will B&W speakers. If you want what Rega offers then I would stick with Rega if you are heading in another direction still keep the whole system approach in mind and start asking folks who own Bryston amps what speakers and other sources they use...just to get another perspective. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10461 Registered: May-04 | . The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 209 Registered: Dec-06 | And a high paying job. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7383 Registered: Dec-04 | Stu, you say the Mira3 and Bryston are nearly on par, yes? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1873 Registered: May-05 | The B60RP is on the way. I just sealed the deal this afternoon. I have a contingency (sp?) plan if things don't work out - My brother in law is willing to buy it to start a new system. His current system? A 10 year old Walmart house brand receiver and CD player connected to my family heirloom White Van speakers. Is the B60RP outright better than the Mira? I think its pretty tough to quantify. But, IMO the Bryston gear I've heard does more things better than the Mira. Keep in mind a new B60RP retails for more than twice the price. I think it does most of the 'HiFi' things better - Imaging, soundstaging, resolution, details, etc. I don't think that's all that makes an integrated amp musical, but it helps. The Mira has it beat when it comes to PRat. But, I don't think its a night and day difference by any means. Combined with the PMCs I heard, the B100 had a very good sense of PRaT. I think the Mira 3 and R5s just have that very last bit of it. Also, a big part of my decision was the warantee and support. The B60 I'm getting has about 15 years left. Not too shabby if you ask me. When I originally set out to build a new system, my main objective was to get something I'd have forever. Not that I think a Mira 3 would let me down at all, but I feel a little more comfortable buying something with a long warantee. For speakers, I'm most likely going with PMC. I just have to save up for a little while. As far as synergy goes, the Bryston/PMC synergy is phenominal. As a side note, I'm pretty sure Bryston is the North American importer or distributer of PMC. They make the amps for PMC's active monitors. Its entirely subjective and impossible to quantify, but from what I heard the other day, the Bryston/PMC synergy was as good to my ears as the Mira 3/R5. Hopefully it'll be here by the middle of next week. Then again, you never know what'll happen due to the holiday weekend. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1874 Registered: May-05 | Sorry, the B60 has a little over 12 years of warantee remaining. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4803 Registered: Feb-05 | Congrats Stu...the weekend definitely has us all waiting, then again it's a weekend so that's ok with me! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4855 Registered: Feb-05 | Ofcourse a Mira just came up for sale on Agon for $625. Hope your gettin' some playing time in with that new Bryston...or is work gettin' in the way. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2177 Registered: Sep-04 | Stu, Bryston and PMC have a very close relationship indeed. PMC is the Bryston distributor in Europe and bruyston distributes PMC in NA. PMC use Bryston amplifiers in their active speakers and there is a lot of input on both sides for each other's requirements. I'm not surprised that the combination is truly synergistic. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7443 Registered: Dec-04 | Stu can't pull himself away for insights at the moment. Remember to sleep, man! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1885 Registered: May-05 | I picked up the B60 on my way into work yesterday from UPS. I had to stare at it all day. Talk about watching the clock all day long. Then I get home, unpack it, and as I'm briefly testing each input to make sure everything works, I get a phone call. A minor family situation took me out of the house until about 11:30. But let me tell you... I was pretty impressed with the 30 seconds I heard on each input. My stereo cabinet is still half way out in the listening room. My 320BEE is still sitting on the couch. My Hotel California LP is still on the Xpression. I figure I'll get everything organized tonight and give it a full eval. ...Unless of course someone else tears their ACL playing soccer with a bunch of guys half his age. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7452 Registered: Dec-04 | Oh no, not the ACL. I still hear mine popping in the nightmare reel. Your brother, Stu? I await patiently. Which PMC speakers were you liking, Stu? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1887 Registered: May-05 | My step father. In his native Peru, he played semi-pro one level below their top level. He'll be 58 in October, yet insists on playing in the 30 somethings league because their's not enough competition in the older guys' league. In fairness to him, he's easily one of the top 5 players in the league. I don't know how he's gonna take it when we confirm it. I've got the Doc who takes care of my athletes taking care of him. We've gotta let the swelling go down before we can get him an MRI, but my professional assesment is an ACL tear at the minimum. More likely what's called the Unhappy Triad - ACL, MCL, Medial Meniscus. Back to speakers, the PMCs were the DB2+ and TB2+. Both are transmission line monitors. Fast and neutral. I heard a tower that's further up the line and it was great. Way out of my price range, and out of my amp's league. Not that my choices are based on a review, but I came across a review on Bryston's site that's got the B60, Rega Planet 2000, and PMC TB2. If I go with the TB2+ (most likely I will), my system will be the updated version of the reviewed system. Here's the link - http://www.bryston.ca/reviews/b60/focus_b60tb2.html I not a big fan of bookshelves, but these are great. I find the sub/sat set ups often lack integration, unless you've got more money than I can comfortably afford. These most likely won't need a sub. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1889 Registered: May-05 | I've got the late shift at work tonight, meaning I won't get home until about 9. Gotta love it. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7458 Registered: Dec-04 | Read the link, Stu. Did you get more of an idea on the phono of the Bryston beforehand? Or just find out tonight? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1890 Registered: May-05 | I was told by the dealer I visited that the phono section was on par with the rest of the amp. I tried it out last night and it sounded on par with everything else, which is very good. But it was only for a minute or two, like everything else. I've got a date with it at 9:30. Don't wait up! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7460 Registered: Dec-04 | how about EC? Journeyman. You got that one? Pretending, or maybe Running on Faith. I found great rythm on the 2nd cut there. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1891 Registered: May-05 | No Clapton, for some stupid reason. I do have some Cream though. It's quittin' time. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7462 Registered: Dec-04 | (whistle blows) Yabba Dabba Doo! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4867 Registered: Feb-05 | PMC's are excellent Stu...waiting for impressions. Sorry about your Stepfather, hopefully he will play again. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1893 Registered: May-05 | I don't have much time to post an extensive review and impressions, I'll be able to later on. Describing it in one word - ruthless. I absolutely love it. And for the same reasons that I love it, I hate it. I'll elaborate later. My wife and I have a million errends to run. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7485 Registered: Dec-04 | Ruthless...welcome to the big stupid, Stu, it only gets worse |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1897 Registered: May-05 | At first I thought the amp was a little too dry and clinical. The more I listened to it, I realized my ears were too used to the 320BEE's sound. The 320BEE is muddy, boomy, and very warm compared to the B60. Initially listening to the B60 it sounded dull and lifeless with no bass. The more I listened, the more I realized how honest the presentation was, and how bad the 320BEE's was. After two days, I hooked up the 320BEE. It sounded awful. It has no resolution or clarity (esp in the highs), the bass is artifically bumped up and doesn't go very deep. Then again, I am comparing a $400 integrated with a $2300 one. The presentation is very honest. Its not bright or warm, very slightly forward, and very accurate tonally. It sounds very close to live music to my ears. Whatever the instrument or voice, it just sounds right. Nothing smoothed over, nothing hyped up. It is what it is. Everything in the music is very easy to follow. All its missing to my ears is that last degree of PRaT. It does this very well, but Naim and Rega do it very slightly better. Just like Naim and Rega, it gets the emotion and the heart of the music right, regardless of the recording quality. This is by far the most important thing IMO. Normally with such an honest presentation, bad recordings sound even worse. Not so here. While the recording's flaws are more appearent, the strengths are more appearent too. Awful recordings are far more enjoyable on the B60 than my 320BEE. I'd even say that the best recordings on the 320BEE don't sound half as good as the worst one on the B60, if that gives some idea of what I mean. This amp is very transparent. It shows everything in and out of the chain, and not in a subtle way. Everything I've done makes a definite sonic change, and its far more appearant with this amp than any amp I've heard before. Its not tempermental in a way that it'll sound horrible if its not set up perfectly, but it'll definitely let you know. The sonic properties of different interconnects aren't very subtle. I initially put the amp in my oak cabinet, then I tried it out on my Ikea Corras table (very popular with the Naim crowd). Everything else being constant, it sounded different. I tried a bunch of different things under the amp - Vibracones, squash balls, granite blocks, a wooden butcher block, and combinations of those. Everything yielded a different result. I don't know which is the best, but they're noticably different. This isn't an amp for a person with OCD. It'll drive them crazy. People on another forum (can't remember which one) said it sounds dry and lifeless. That has to be from one of two things - either something else in the chain is causing it, or they're comparing it to another stereo rather than live music. I said I love it and hate it. I love how transparent it is. In some ways I hate how transparent it is. I feel like I'll be trying different cables, interconnects, isolation, etc. as long as I own it. The less transparent the amp, the more subtle these things are. The more transparent, the less subtle they are. I love it more and hate it less with every song I play through it. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10527 Registered: May-04 | . A better component, or even so much as a better set up, should allow you to find the musical value of virtually any recording (with the possible exception of the very few that are truly horrible in every way). Any component which sets you toward limiting your musical selections is doing you no favor no matter how high it may reach in a few particular aspects of "hifi" desirables as pantingly described by magazine and web reviewers. Forget "the best ever" aspect of the system and just listen to the music. Enjoying and understanding the music and the artistic expression that went into putting it on a disc is what matters. The artistic expression of how it gets from disc to your ears is far less important. "I feel like I'll be trying different cables, interconnects, isolation, etc. as long as I own it." Don't. You will be doing yourself no favors. Settle on a presentational style that once again favors the music and then stop reading advertisements and listening to recommendations for something that will only change in some fashion what you already have. Keep it simple, that's all that's required of cables and accessories. The less the system f...s with the music, the better off you will be. Isn't that what the amplifier is already suggesting to you? Careful set up of a very good component system is far more valuable to the listening experience than all the cables, cords and cones you can afford. Use logic and clear thinking to achieve the best results, do not rely on magic. . |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 217 Registered: Dec-06 | Nice review, Stu. Makes me wanna listen. An amp that minds it's own business....what a concept. I really need to get out more. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7503 Registered: Dec-04 | Very good, Stu. How is your tt liking it? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4881 Registered: Feb-05 | Good reading Stu! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1900 Registered: May-05 | Thanks everyone for your comments. I've got a few more thoughts/observations... For the longest time, I thought my room was the cause of most of my problems -- muddy bass and congested mids. I also thought that my PSBs were adding to it. Using a Rives Audio frequency response CD and Rat Shack SPL meter, there were big bumps and dips all over. The biggest bump was right around 200-125 Hz, a dip around 70 Hz, and back to normal between 60 and 30 Hz. The B60 proved to me that the 320BEE was the culprit. I haven't tried to re-measure yet (I've been enjoying music way too much), but to my ears, everything is pretty much flat. The only thing I've changed is the 320BEE for the B60. I didn't realize my speakers were this good. They're more neutral and tonally accurate than I thought. I thought I was hearing a little cabinet noise before. It wasn't the speakers. I really only see two weakness in my speakers now. They can get a little dry at times. This was there before, but now that the 320BEE's flaws are gone, it's more obvious now. Its not any drier, it's just more apparent now. They're also not as fast as I'd like them to be. The PMCs showed me how fast Bryston gear can be. When I bought my speakers, I wasn't too concerned with how they'd sound with other gear. I was concerned how they sounded with the 320BEE and other NAD equipment. At the time, I planned on moving further up the NAD amplification ladder when funds allowed. To answer Nuck's question, my turntable loves the B60. It sounds the way vinyl is supposed to sound to my ears. I'm 99% sure the phono card in the B60 is the same as Bryston's separate phono stage. I know Bryston's dedicated pre-amps use the same board as the separate phono stage. Jan, I appreciate your insight and comments. You're absolutely right. I didn't buy any of the stuff I used for experimenting for this purpose. I had this stuff lying around the house. The interconnects are/were used for different components. I simply tried each one of them with my CD player. The granite tiles were left-overs from a project involving isolating my speakers a few weeks ago (more on that later). The Ikea table is my listening room coffee table. The butcher's block was from my kitchen. The Vibrapods came from under my TT. My thought was there's no sense in not trying out a free tweak. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1901 Registered: May-05 | On the subject of cables, I just discovered that I chafed the jacket to the power cord last night. It wasn't there when I bought. I must have done it when I was pulling the cord through the hole in the back of the cabinet. I'm temporarily using an IEC cord form an old computer. I can't really hear any differences though. I'm looking into an entry level PS Audio power cord. Music Direct has a 30 day return policy, and I don't have a local dealer. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7539 Registered: Dec-04 | Stuie, if you didn't notice the difference in cables from the 'chafed' one and the 'el cheapo' one, why look further? I suggest diaper cream with zinc for chafing, BTW |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1909 Registered: May-05 | From what I've heard - I don't have any kids that I know of - Desitin (sp?) works pretty well for diaper rash and chafing. You make a good point Nucko. However, upon inspection of the factory cord and the computer cord, they're identicle to my eyes. Sole difference being colors. I'm going to try to borrow a hospital grade cord from one of the machines at work. The electrical stim units all use a hospital grade 15 or 20 amp cord. I've read in a few places that these work great. I'll try one out for a night sometime this week. If it works out, I'll buy one. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4927 Registered: Feb-05 | Your post from Wednesday was an excellent one Stu. It's amazing how room acoustics issues turn out not be with a different piece of gear in the chain. Everything shifts. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1964 Registered: May-05 | Just an update - The B60 gets better each day. An added bonus is that it warms up pretty quickly, meaning that I don't have to leave it on 24/7 to get the best out of it. After about 2 CDs is when it really opens up. Being in the Northeast where lightning is in the forecast about 5 days a week, its good to know it'll sound right pretty quickly. But the main reason for the update - I replaced the pre-amp/amp jumpers and power cord. I did the jumpers first for a few days, then added the power cord. The stock jumpers are standard jumpers I've seen on everything, only these are gold plated. I replaced them with Audioquest's jumpers. They've got the same wire and configuration as my King Cobra interconnects. The connectors are different, and I'm asuming the dialectric is different too. Music sounded a little cleaner and clearer. I'm assuming this is probably due to shielding, whereas the stock jumpers were exposed metal. It was pretty close in every other aspect. The improvements were definitely worth the $25 cost. I replaced the power cord with a Shunyata Venom cord. Music was again cleaner and clearer. Its also more cohesive and sounds slight fuller, and more dynamic. To sum it all up, they both made my music sound more believable, or more real. Worth $130 total including shipping? To me, absolutely. Regarding why these thing made my system better, I don't really care. It could be the better connections, EMI/RFI rejection, and/or heavier gauge wiring, but I'll leave that to the Audioholics guys. Then again, according to them these tweaks are all in my head and a scam. My response to the naysayers - Ignorance is bliss. Links to the gear - http://www.musicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=AAQFPS http://www.musicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=ASHUNVENOM15AMP |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1966 Registered: May-05 | I forgot to mention - Everything seems more tonally accurate. The biggest overall difference is in low level listening. At low levels, everything seems to be in better balance than it was before. Before, I had to turn it up to a certain level before everything was even. Now everything seems even right from the begining. This is a huge plus when listening at night. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7955 Registered: Dec-04 | Great, Stu. Let the naysayers say nay, whilst you say Yeah! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1422 Registered: Nov-05 | They all add up Stu - congrats on the gear. |
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Bronze Member Username: James_lehmannPost Number: 55 Registered: Nov-06 | So... Stu... Do you have those PMC TB2+'s yet? Not that you need reminding, but these really are extremely good speakers and I'm sure would do your Rega/Bryston components proud. PMC's really shine with great amplification like Bryston/Naim etc, as I'm finding out with my new Naim system - it's like I have a whole new CD collection! I went for the PMC Tube 60 stands too - expensive but worth it I feel! Let us know! :-) |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2511 Registered: May-05 | I'm going to audition them some time in the next week or two, depending on how my basketball team does. The TB2+s may be a little out of my budget, but the DB1+s are managable. I heard they improvements are substantial and worth the money, but I don't have the money. A local dealer has the + series (new series is i), but I don't know how much of a break if any he's giving on the old series. I think a lot of people are looking for them because they're significantly cheaper than the new line. The dealer said he'll set a pair of each aside for me to audition if his stock gets to be too low. I'll follow up when I get a chance to hear them again. My time with them before was way too short. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1263 Registered: Jun-07 | FWIW Stu I just read this whole thread for the first time today. I must say I disagree with a few things said by others near the first of the thread. I think the Apollo/Bryston is great, and although Rega has its PrAT, the Bryston stuff I have heard of late kills the Rega integrates. That said, they cost 2-3 times more. PrAT is important, but I would say that only makes up for 1/5 of what a Amp should do right. I think the Bryston Integrates and Pre Amps out class the Rega's IMO, as they should given the pricing. You obviously made a great choice picking that Integrated amp up. Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6461 Registered: Feb-05 | I undertsnad where you're comin' from Nick. For my ears however I have to say that I'll stick by my statements. Bryston makes great gear but it's in a different class than Rega and for best results should be paired with sources in it's own league. |
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Bronze Member Username: James_lehmannPost Number: 56 Registered: Nov-06 | It's been at least a couple of years now since PMC upgraded the tweeter and added the "+" suffix to the model numbers. I'm surprised anywhere has any of the old stock left. I had an original pair of TB2's in my old place and have a new pair now - not a quantum leap but a smoother sound and a worthwhile improvement all round I think. To the best of my knowledge the DB1's had the new tweeters from scratch, no need to seek out the "+" version there. Distance from wall is significant with these little PMC's - keep than in mind when auditioning/planning your set-up as the bass response can radically alter. If you are utterly, utterly strapped for cash you might like to know that the TB2's (and DB1's I think) are available in a black 'studio' version without the nice wood finish (see my set-up pic in other thread) and come in slightly cheaper. In theory these are only sold by pro audio outlets but, well, you know... I've not done a shoot-out of TB2's vs DB1's - I'd like to, if only to be able to give knowledgeable advice out! I've heard the DB1's are very, very good for a small-box design, although you might find the beefy Bryston thirsts for the slightly larger TB2's! I've not heard the speakers you have currently (R5?) but I fell in love with PMC after hearing some LB1's and then a massive BB5 system in various studios I visit, and after that I've been hooked. The awesomely natural 'house sound' of PMC is something I've never heard on anything else, and these speakers simply dazzle on anything acoustic and vocal. Finally, and I'm sure this is obvious to experienced folk like you, PMC's need a lot of running in - like 40-100 hours I think, if I recall from the product designer at PMC. The sound you'll get 'out-of-the-box' simply isn't the same as you'll hear after a month or so. You guys helped me so much with my choice of Naim - now it's time for me to put something back into this Forum and PMC is a brand I really know about from my 'day job' as a sound engineer! Good luck with your auditioning - keep us posted! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1264 Registered: Jun-07 | I wasn't trying to narrow anyone out Art. FWIW I have listened to the Bryston Cd player they have and feel that it wasn't a whole lot better than that of the Apollo/Saturn. Maybe a bit, but for 5 grand I couldn't justify ever buying it. My opinion. But I totally agree that it should be paired with stuff in its own league definitely. I am still shopping for that perfect deal on one. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2512 Registered: May-05 | James, Thanks for your insight. It's very helpful. I don't have Rega speakers, I have PSB Image T55s, which are by far the wakest link right now. I think you're a little confused by PMC model names. PMC just updated/upgraded their entire line. The + series has been replaced with the i series. DB1+ is now DB1i, TB2+ is now TB2i, and so on through the entire line. With the updates comes a substatnital increase in price - The DB1i is now $1800, and the TB2i is $2150. The local dealer has the DB1+ and TB2+ (not the non +). I may be able to afford the TB2+ if he gives me a discount because they're discontinued. If not, I may settle on the DB1+. I want to spend some more time hearing them before I buy them. Its not too easy for me to come up with the cash. The new i line is said to be a huge step up from the + line, and worth the increase in price. Unfortunately, they've moved on passed my means. http://www.pmc-speakers.com/i-series/ Art and Nick, In my system, the Apollo isn't being outclassed, the speakers are. Not to say that a better source won't be better after I upgrade the speakers. After I upgrade the speakers, it'll be a while before I upgrade the Apollo. I don't forsee it holding the system back too much. If I'm going to upgrade it down the road, I'll probably wait until I can afford a Naim CD5x. I think this is the next considerable step up, rather than an incrimental (sp?) step. At about $3k, I think it'll take a while. My priority after the speakers is a P3 or P5. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2513 Registered: May-05 | Nick, The Bryston BCD-1 is $2700 in the US. I'd love to hear one, especially side by side with a Naim CD5x. My local PMC dealer is also a Bryston dealer, and will probably have one on display. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1272 Registered: Jun-07 | Awesome, I never got to fully hear it with a FULL Bryston system. So that might of been why I couldn't see spending the extra money from the Apollo or Saturn. Let us know when you hear what your thoughts are Stu. It has amazing reviews. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2516 Registered: May-05 | Its got great reviews. But then again, what doesn't get great reviews these days? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6469 Registered: Feb-05 | Ummhmm...! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1275 Registered: Jun-07 | Yeah thats true. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2518 Registered: May-05 | James, Another speaker I'm interested in hearing is ATC, specifically their SCM7. I've heard they require a ton of power to open them up, and sound better when they're playing loud. That kind of turns me off. My favorite dealer (also carries Naim and Rega) carries them. I'll audition them with my B60. Any experience with ATC? Can you compare/contrast them with PMC? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2519 Registered: May-05 | Since we're discussing speakers, here's my list of speakers I'm interested in and would like to audition. In no particular order - PMC DB1+ PMC TB2+ ATC SCM7 Dynaudio Audience 52 and 52 SE Totem Arro Focal Chorus 800 series Linn Katan Naim N-Sat Rega R3/R5 I'd like to hear some Audio Physics too. I don't know model names nor prices. I've heard most, but not with my gear nor being in serious audition mode. Some are more expensive than others. One dealer has most of these, which makes it easier to compare - Linn, Naim, Rega, ATC, and Dynaudio. I can bring my B60, and they have my sources so I don't need to lug those. Anyone who has any experience with these - are is their anything you think is a waste of time? Meaning that they'll get outclassed easily by the others? I know its all subjective. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 165 Registered: Jul-07 | Stu, for purely selfish reasons, I'd like you to take a trip to White Plains to visit Toys from the Attic, the local LSA dealer. I looked on a map though and it looks to be a bit of a drive. I'd like a first hand impression of the difference between the LSA1 Standard Monitors and the Signature version of the same speaker. I heard the standard versions when I was in Toronto about a month ago, and they blew me away. The Signature version is supposed to be even better, but it ups the price from $1050 to $1800 CDN. But, if you should ever be in White Plains..... |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2531 Registered: May-05 | I live 5 minutes away from White Plains. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2765 Registered: Sep-04 | Stu Don't forget Totem Rainmakers...or indeed any Totem you can afford... Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Scorpio1PA USA Post Number: 86 Registered: Nov-07 | Frank, You really seem to like the Totem Rainmakers. As soon as I get my hands on some extra cash (if there is such a thing) I am going to get a seond hand pair and A/B in my setup. You have me intrigued to say the least. Ed |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 166 Registered: Jul-07 | "I live 5 minutes away from White Plains." Cool. Should you ever wander into that shop let me know your impressions. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2768 Registered: Sep-04 | Ed, I really like what most Totem speakers do. That said, they are only speakers and they don't make the tea! I also know some people who would rather put Totem speakers at the top of a white hot burning pile of rubbish than have them at home. Don't go buying anything just for the sake of it - if you like what you have then be happy. I only suggest them when people are looking at options... Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6514 Registered: Feb-05 | Well said Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Scorpio1PA USA Post Number: 87 Registered: Nov-07 | Thanks for the honesty. I shall be enjoying music from now on. |
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Silver Member Username: CorneliusPost Number: 151 Registered: Jun-04 | Stu, just drive down to Brooklyn and pick up a pair of MicroWalsh Talls! If you don't like them, just bring them back... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6531 Registered: Feb-05 | Listening to speakers yet Stu? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2550 Registered: May-05 | I tried to hear Audio Physic Yara monitors today. I have no idea why, but the dealer didn't want to let me hear them. He kept pushing the Revel Concerta towers on me. Listened to those and B&W 685s to amuse him. He said that towers sound better than monitors, and "big speakers don't over power small rooms." After I told him I was only there for the Audio Physics and nothing else, he brought me into another room where I though he had them. He started playing Maggies. He left the room and came back with Revel brochures. I left. On my out, sure enough, the Yara monitors were sitting on a shelf. That's the second and last time I deal with that clown. Before I walked in, I tried giving him the benefit of the doubt and telling myself he was probably just having a bad day the first time. Worst part is that he's the owner. Who can I complain about it to? Maybe Audio Physic's distributor would like to hear my story. I hope there's another dealer in the area. I'm going to hear the PMCs on Monday. They've got a few other speakers that I'll try out too. I'll probably go to my Naim/Rega/Linn dealer on Tuesday or Wednesday. No lower end ATCs, but they've got the Dynaudio Focus 110 on display. She said it should be right up my alley. On a side note, the B&W 685s sounded pretty bad to my ears. Weak bass, grainy, and slow. They were connected to Mac seperates, so it wasn't the rest of the system. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6533 Registered: Feb-05 | Dagnabit I would have loved hear about the Yara. That's a speaker who's design looks right up my alley. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2551 Registered: May-05 | For a dealer, shouldn't Rule #1 be let the customer hear what they ask to hear? This is the second time this guy tried to get me to buy what he wants me to buy. I won't step foot in his shop again. I asked for a specific speaker, which he had. It wasn't out of laziness, because he switched other speakers around. I guess carrying a pair of monitors 30 feet was too much to ask. I'm e-mailing Audio Physic's distributor for a dealer list. |
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Silver Member Username: CorneliusPost Number: 152 Registered: Jun-04 | Stu, that's a drag - I've spoken to companies from time to time, and they also complain about many of the stores that carry their gear. With the exception of some cables, I haven't purchased anything locally in years... Good luck. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2785 Registered: Sep-04 | Stu, That's a very strange story. Did you ask him why he would not play the Audio Physics for you? It just doesn't make sense. As for your options. does your Naim dealer do Naim n-Sats? You might like them. They don't do bass but they do fun, lots of it. They need to go near a back wall for best results though. PMC make fine speakers. They're very well made and manage to get remarkably long transmission lines into very small boxes. Much respect for PMC, and a natural combination with Bryston of course. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2554 Registered: May-05 | Frank, If I asked why, I'm sure I get an answer along the lines of 'tower speakers are better.' He said that several times while I was there. There's an Audio Physic dealer in Manhattan that I'll contemplate visiting. I'm going to my Naim dealer on Wed or so. Using my Bryston and their Apollo, I'll compare and contrast - Naim N-Sat Linn Katan Rega R3 and/or R5 Dynaudio Focus 110 I may listen to the Focus 140 depending on price. I think its out of my range, but I'm not sure of the price. If its far beyond my range, I won't listen to it out of fear of losing sleep over it. They don't have the Audience 52 in stock. The owner's wife (I guess she's the owner too) who is the business end of the operation said they stopped carrying the 52 and 52 SE because the 110 is so much better for a few dollars more. After hearing the Focus 110, no one bought the Audience 52 and 52SE. I was going to go to hear the PMCs today, but I just remembered that the St Patrick's Day Parade is going on. It'll be a nightmare getting into and out of Manhattan today. Tomorrow is a better day. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2558 Registered: May-05 | I just got back from visiting 2 dealers in Manhattan - A PMC dealer, and an Audio Physic dealer. PMC DB1+ It could have been the worst audition room I've ever been in. Echo was awful. He initially had them connected to Marantz top of the line integrated amp and CD player. In a word - Awful. Grainy, slow, thin, and boomy bass. He let me listen to that combo while he set up another pair of DB1+ with a Bryston B100 and BCD-1 in another room. It was so much better. But I'm going to pass. The DB1+s sounded a little too thin, and bass didn't dig down deep enough. They're pretty clean sounding, fast paced, and have phenominal imaging. Tool's Wings for Marie (10,000 Days part 2) sounded huge. The storm was everywhere. Read Mike Wodek's post regarding the CD in the Reference Music Thread. Exactly like he said, only the thunder was too forced. The DB1+ is so small, you could probably fit one in a normal sized shoe box. But they sound huge. Audio Physic Yara II Compact - I'm so glad I got to hear this speaker (different dealer than the clown). I almost gave up on it, then found there was a dealer 3 blocks from the PMC dealer. This may very well be what I end up buying. All the speed, agility, cleanliness, and imaging of the DB1+. It sounded fuller and far more lifelike. Lower and fuller bass than the DB1+ without being overdone or forced. Tonally very accurate and uncolored. The Yaras were initially played on a Mac 6900 and Rega Apollo. The salesman actually had a B60 in the back room a customer traded in, and I was able to hear my own system. It was such a great match. To be honest, after hearing the B60 and 6900, I lost a little respect for the 6900. It'll drive far more difficult speakers and sounds better overall, but its not head and shoulders better than my B60. In this system, my B60 sounds a little better to my ears. A little more forward, crisper, and faster. I'll make my way to the Naim dealer sometime this week. Anything they have really has their work cut out for them. Its going to take a lot to beat the Yara. At $1250 + $250 for the right stand, the Yara is starting to seem like a no-brainer. I also heard the Yara tower. It was basically the same speaker with a touch deeper bass. Not worth the extra $750 IMO. But everyone's tastes and rooms are different. If you have an Audio Physic dealer near you, you should definitely make it a point to hear a pair. If anyone wants me to elaborate more on either speaker, just ask. And thanks for reading and sharing in my insanity. http://www.audiophysic.de/yara_II_compact/index_e.html It looks a lot better in person. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2791 Registered: Sep-04 | Very interesting. Even more interesting when you come back from the Naim dealer... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9905 Registered: Dec-04 | I just loved the Dyn 140's last time I heard them. Even more than the first. Hmmm, how do they price out in Manhattan? How much is a Manhattan in Manhatten? I had the same kinda thing happen between the 140's and the 220's(dyn)...not the same. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2801 Registered: Sep-04 | er...can you repeat that in English? It doesn't make much sense to me... |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2574 Registered: May-05 | I haven't drank a Manhattan in Manhattan. Not much of a whiskey drinker. If its anything like every other beverage in Manhattan, it'll probably cost about 3 times what it would anywhere else. I'm putting buying the speakers on hold for a few weeks. I'm waiting for my state tax return, and trying to figure out a way of convincing my wife that the upgrade isn't costing any money after I get rid of my current speakers and the stuff I've already sold. I think she'll fall for the bookshelf speakers are cheaper than towers line I've been practicing in my head  |
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Bronze Member Username: Scorpio1PA USA Post Number: 99 Registered: Nov-07 | I just tell me wife I sold the old stuff and the new stuff was cheaper, so in reality I saved money. Good thing her being a principal/mom keeps her really really busy with school work and our daughter.  |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2808 Registered: Sep-04 | Stu, Keep practicing...and wear a cup! Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9927 Registered: Dec-04 | Words to live by... |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2582 Registered: May-05 | Next time my father asks when we're going to have children, I'll loosely quote you Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9938 Registered: Dec-04 | hehehe Frank might be loose himself. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2811 Registered: Sep-04 | Hey! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1301 Registered: Jun-07 | FWIW I listened to a full new Bryston Power/Pre combo with a Arcam cd player and B&W Speakers yesterday at Just Hi Fi. The Power amp was a 7B I think and the pre was a BP26? with no Phono. Sounded very good. Also listened to a B&W/NAD T765(new) combo with Blu Ray, and a full Arcam/Tanyo combo. Room acoustics in there are amazing so of course everything sounded very very good. The Bryston/B&W combo impressed me the most though. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2590 Registered: May-05 | Bryston and B&W combine very well. I like B&Ws upper end speakers with Bryston seperates very much. The problem in my case is that the B&Ws I like need more raw power and space to get them to open up and shine than my 60 watt B60 and small room have to offer. Add to that the cost of B&Ws I like, and you've got a triple threat that's not going to work out for me. Check out the BP-26, 2BSST, BCD-1 and/or Arcam FMJ CD36, and B&W 703 for a phenomnial system. If I had the money and space, this would be a system on my very short-list. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1302 Registered: Jun-07 | Stu- I think the system I heard was almost that exact system. The Bryston power amp I didn't get a great look at it as it was dark in the room and was basically listening to cd's by myself. It might have been 2b or 7b. The Arcam I believe was the CD36 and the B&W's were the 703's. They had the 803's as well to listen to. I would have loved to hear the Rega Apollo in the mix instead of the Arcam. Just to see what it would have added to the mix, or take away for that matter. One thing I didn't like about the Arcam cd player was its build quality, and the cd door was very very flimsy. None the less it sounded pretty damn good. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2591 Registered: May-05 | Its a great system. I don't think the Arcam's CD door was any worse than any other CD player I've come across. For some odd reason, they all have flimsy plastic CD drawers. No matter how much attention to detail these companies show, the drawer is always the same junk for some reason unbeknownst to me. Then again, it doesn't change sound quality, nor has one ever broke on me. They may have stopped opening, but that's gears and belts, not the drawer itself. Also, maybe the flimsy plastic is less of a disc scratcher than a metal one would be. I guess at the end of the day, the drawer is insignificant, and may be better off being flimsy plastic than anything else. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 196 Registered: Jul-07 | "I think she'll fall for the bookshelf speakers are cheaper than towers line I've been practicing in my head " Oh my. This hits home. We can help with this Stu. Could be a whole new thread. Rationale for Stu's new speakers. Just let us know....we're there for ya. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9975 Registered: Dec-04 | hehe..the flimsy plastic drawer is to reduce the fields built up by metal drawers. The older Sony players had solid movements, but the static and fri retained by the heavy metallic movements made for problems. As well as shipping costs( Sony cd1 weighed 30 lbs). The lighter transports dictated by shipping costs also helped to bring about the use of static free composites, which are now commonplace. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1303 Registered: Jun-07 | Thats cool info to have Nuck and Stu, that would explain it. Cheers. |
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Bronze Member Username: BetamaxCanada Post Number: 33 Registered: May-07 | Hey Stu, I just bought a B60R. I'm looking forward to hooking it up, but it could be a couple of weeks before I get it (depends on customs bottleneck). Would it have enough power to drive the Hawks or Model Ones? I live in a condo, so I can't really crank up the volume anyway. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2628 Registered: May-05 | Taken from another thread by Frank S - "That's part of the reason I decided to get the B60 and sell my NAD 162/272 combo: I'd like something with slightly more clarity, and I don't really need the power of the 272 as I never get past 1/4 volume. I tend to do my close listening on headphones, and I've read that the B60 is great for phones. I've never auditioned one, but I've been impressed with other Brystons, so I'm taking a chance. I'll hang on to my B&W 602's for a while (i.e. till my wife gets over me buying the B60), but I'm thinking I'll probably buy Totems when I eventually upgrade." The B60 is a huge improvement from NAD on clarity. It'll probably be the most immediately noticable thing. Everything else should be drastically improved as well. However, with the increased transparency and resolution of the B60, you'll still have a lot of the NAD sound from your 542. Because its as neutral as it is, it'll take on the sound of your source. More on the source later. I've never heard the Model Ones, and have only heard the Hawks once or twice, so I'm not expert on them by any means. I've read up on the Model Ones, and was kicking around the idea of buying a used pair because they're supposed to be phenominal speakers. However, every time I've read about them, I've heard they require substantial amounts of power. They tend to get very sloppy sounding when not powered up properly. They don't require that amount of power to get loud, they require it to control the speakers. While the B60 has so much more real world power than their spec sheets suggest, it may not be enough. After I hear some more of the speakers I listed above with the B60, I'll post my impressions. I really liked the Audio Physic Yara II Compact for $1250. An excellent speaker all around, and really matched up well with the rest of my system. Have you heard the Hawks? If you've heard the Arros and think the Hawks are a more refined and expensive version of the Arros, you may not be happy with them. They're not based on each other in any way. Totem doesn't design traditional lines of speakers where the next step up is incrimental improvements of the previous speaker. They're individually designed independent of one another. One speaker being more expensive than another has nothing to do with one being an improved version of another. It just means that it cost more to design and make that speaker. I may be wrong, but I think the Hawks are a bit easier to drive than the Arros. If that's the case, it should work out pretty well. Getting away from the Totems for a second, your B&Ws should sound pretty good with the B60. Better speakers will obviously sound better, but the 602s won't make you regret buying the B60. Instead of upgrading the speakers now, you may want to look into upgrading the source first. The NAD 542 (which is listed in your profile) is a very good CD player for the money, but it doesn't fit in as well as the B&Ws do with the rest of the system IMO. You may want to look into something like a Rega Apollo. The clarity, PRaT, and everything else that leads to better musicallity will be improved drastically. Maybe not as appearent if you're switching back and forth quickly, but it'll become very appearent if you sit down and listen to music and emotion rather than simply comparing and looking for specific strengths and flaws, and the differences between the CD players. Along those lines, a cost saving measure may be sending the B60 to Bryston and having them install an internal DAC. I'm not sure of the price, and I haven't heard a B60 with an internal DAC, but if its anything like everything else about the B60, it'll be amazing. The best advice I have is to live with the B60 for a little while before you start thinking of the next steps. Get to know its strengths and weakness (very few and far between BTW), then plan out the rest of the system. |
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Bronze Member Username: BetamaxCanada Post Number: 35 Registered: May-07 | Hey Stu, thanks for the detailed feedback, I appreciate it. I A/B'd the Arros and Hawks last year and definitely preferred the Hawks, though I can't remember specifics now. I also just found a quote online from someone who heard the B60 with the Model Ones and was blown away by the sound (don't have link, sorry), so they're definitely a possibility. I'll take your advice and hang on the B&W 602's for a while...there's no rush, in any case. Thanks for the input! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2630 Registered: May-05 | Actually, now that I think about it, it was the Mani-2 that are very hard to drive. I'm not sure about the Model One. Maybe look into the Model One Signature too? Frank has extensive knowledge and experience with Totems. Hopefully he'll be able to shed some light on it. Of the older 600 series, my favorite by far is the 602. It doesn't have the cabinet sounds and bass problems that the 600 towers had. While the new 600 series towers are a huge improvement from the older models, they still have a ways to go IMO. I was very underwhelmed when I heard them. |
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Bronze Member Username: BetamaxCanada Post Number: 36 Registered: May-07 | Yes, the Manis are particularly hard to drive. The Model Ones are easier, though none of the Totems seem overly easy. At the volume levels I listen to, however, I think the B60 would be fine with the Ones, and perhaps the Hawks also. But I've decided to hang on to my B&W's for quite a while, so I don't have to make that decision any time soon. Thanks for your comments on the 602's -- I also thought them tighter than the 600 towers when I bought them years ago. The acoustics of the condo we're in aren't great, and I think I'll wait till we move in a year or two before bothering to upgrade the speakers; it'll give me something to look forward to. Due to the crappy acoustics, I do most of my close listening on headphones, which is another reason I like the B60. I initially considered picking up a used B20 preamp and 3B amp, but the B20 doesn't have a headphone jack. And later on, if I need more power, I can pick up a 3B and just use the B60 for a preamp; or pick up a 2B LP and bi-amp it with the B60. That would be a cheap upgrade! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2872 Registered: Sep-04 | Some notes... If you like the 602s I am not convinced you'd like the Model-1s. I think Model-1s are brilliant speakers but they don't have very extended bass and no midbass colouration. The 602s have a fairly extended bass and loads of mid-bass colouration (or warmth). I imagine you'd enjoy Hawks which have an element of mid-bass warmth, are easier to drive than Model-1s and have a very benign impedance curve. If you don't want to drive the Model-1s to very loud levels and enjoy them at sensible room-filling levels, the Bryston should have the juice to do the job. I'd imagine tghat the Bryston would be able to drive the Hawks all day long. All that said, I tend to agree with Stu that you are quite severely limited by the NAD C542. This is a fine CD player, but it's only as good as it is. In the scheme of things you should be looking at the likes of Bryston's new CD player, Naim's CD5x or CD5i and Rega's Apollo at worst. Certainly anything in ther next league up, especially if you have designs on something as capable as the Hawks! If you open the window that far, you need a better signal coming through otherwise you'll just get a poor signal displayed in all its 'glory'. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2633 Registered: May-05 | Frank Abela, Any insight on using the 542 as a transport and sending the B60 to Bryston to have them install an internal DAC? Its reportedly the same one as used in the BCD-1. Frank S, If you're interested in using a turntable down the road or use one now, you can have Bryston install a phono stage into your B60. I don't think they can install both a phono stage and DAC simultaneously due to space constraints. The internal phono stage on my B60 is excellent. It'll cost serious money to significantly improve on it. |
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Bronze Member Username: BetamaxCanada Post Number: 37 Registered: May-07 | Frank, thanks for your insight re the Totems. I like the 602's, but I'm not in love with them; I'm actually not a bass nut and prefer neutrality over boom. But you might very well be right that the Hawks are a better fit for me. I'll A/B both before I buy. In the meantime, I'll take your and Stu's advice about the CD player under advisement. I listen to headphones regularly, so the CD player is an upgrade I can benefit from immediately, without concern for poor room acoustics. My wife and I intend to buy a new place in the next year or two and are saving like crazy, hence my uncharacteristic frugality. Otherwise, I'd already have spent a lot more money by now... Stu, I sold off my collection of vinyl years ago and won't go down that road again, but thanks for your suggestion. As for the DAC -- I don't think it's a cheap upgrade, so it's probably better to just get a new CD player. Thanks anyway, though. I appreciate your helping me figure out how to make the most of the B60. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2879 Registered: Sep-04 | Stu, I've not tried it of course so all I can give is conjecture. The BCD-1 is meant to be a very good CD player indeed. If the DAC section is the same then it should make for a fine improvement over the C542's built-in DAC section. That said, I always have problems with timing errors when using an S/PDIF connection, and there are adjustments that can be made to the transport which are probably better in the BCD-1 than the C542 so it's probably not as good as a separate BCD-1. Naim's SuperNAIT has a built-in DAC and this is a very fine solution when streaming lossless files to it, but it's nowhere near as good as the (admittedly more expensive) Naim CD player solutions. Difficult call. Certainly something to consider if you intend hosting your music on a server of some kind. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: BetamaxCanada Post Number: 46 Registered: May-07 | The B60 arrived today, and I got it hooked up this evening (had to move everything around, all that good stuff). It's past 1:30 am my time, and I should be in bed but I started listening just to see if everything worked properly and ended up listening for another hour and a half. The sound is awesome, everything I hoped it would be. When I listened to some of my favorite CD's I literally got chills -- that's how impressive this thing is. Especially amazing given it's size: picture a large pizza box cut in half, that's about it. One example: I listened to Bruce Cockburn's "Speechless", all acoustic guitar, and couldn't believe the improvement over my NAD 162/272. I was listening on AKG 701 headphones and could hear his fingers slide along the strings from fret to fret. Also, I heard the hollow reverberation of air within the guitar -- which is part of live acoustic sound, but which I've never heard before in recorded music. Thrilling stuff! I listened to several 'touchstones': Gabriel's Security, Laurie Anderson's Strange Angels, Tragically Hip's Fully Completely, etc. and was blown away by the sound. Gabriel's drums and bass sounded tight but meaty. Anderson's overdubbed voice created familiar harmonies, yet each dub simultaneously remained clear & distinct. The Hip's poignant tales of loss were emotionally compelling in a way which I hadn't experienced in years. I've only recently acquired the AKG 701 headphones and had initially thought them perhaps a touch too bright, but no longer. All the highs were there in glorious detail, yet without the glassy shimmer I'd experienced with the NAD. What a difference. Even my wife, though skeptical of my need to upgrade, appreciated the subtle (and some not-so-subtle) differences. Which is a huge relief, as I no longer have to suck up so much. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1410 Registered: Jun-07 | lol Awesome Frank. My Bryston Pre will be here this coming MOnday. OH GEE OH GOLLY OH GEE OH GOLLY.lol I cant wait. You should post your comment over at Old NAD vs New NAD section.LOL Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2672 Registered: May-05 | Frank, Glad to hear its working out as you hoped. As stupid as it sounds, it'll sound better as it gets warmer. To my ears, it sounds its best when the knobs are warm to the touch. To get some more performance out of mine, I replaced the jumpers with Audioquest jumpers for about $25. Not a night and day difference, but definitely noticable to my ears. The power cord (Shunyata Venom for $100) also improved it, but I could see some people not liking the cahnge it brought. In my room, with my gear, it sounds very good. I wouldn't have replaced it if I didn't need to, but I'm not complaining about it at all. But before you start changing anything, get to know the B60 better. |
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Bronze Member Username: BetamaxCanada Post Number: 47 Registered: May-07 | Hey Stu, thanks for the advice. I already swapped the jumper for some cable I had, definitely makes a difference. I read one of your earlier posts where you talked about doing that, so I didn't wait. Haven't replaced the power cord yet...sounds great as is. Cheers! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6760 Registered: Feb-05 | Power cords are very tricky...most bring change and often it isn't a good change. I was very fortunate to stumble onto the best power cords for my Rega gear... |
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