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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7303 Registered: Dec-04 | As the title infers, I am questioning the usage of 2 identical amps, used in different ways. My particular speakers are bi-ampable(like many). What are the benefits/tradeoffs of each configuration? Bi-amping in particular, as there are several configurations available(lateral, crossed). Thank you in advance. Nuck |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 194 Registered: Dec-06 | Thanks, Nuck |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7311 Registered: Dec-04 | I have a lead on another ca200 Classe amp, which would look real nice on the floor in front of my kit. Dual balanced. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10434 Registered: May-04 | . "What are the benefits/tradeoffs of each configuration?" What is the benefit of bi-wiring? What will I hear if I bi-amp? What cables should I use to my subwoofer? What is the meaning of life? Is the new Spideyman movie really not as good as the first two but just really, really long by comparison? Why do they make sequels anyway? How much cash do you want to blow on this experiment? Why not ask something that doesn't require volumes to answer? Can your amplifiers be bridged in parallel or in series? If parallel, how difficult are your speakers to drive? Parallel will lower the output impedance and give you give you more amps while series will give you more volts. Separating the channels to get better separation of the, well, channels. Bi-amping, up, down sideways or in between only works with excellent active crossovers. Excellent means expensive and uses tubes. Almost always better to use two amps for two channels. Less cables = more sound, less fiddly crap. Listen to the damn music!!!!! F**K the hifi!!!!! . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7318 Registered: Dec-04 | Bi-amping, up, down sideways or in between only works with excellent active crossovers. Excellent means expensive and uses tubes. Why is it so that active XO's are required? My speakers have 3 drivers and 3 crossovers. What,specifically, does an active crossover do for a bi-amp configuration? In volumes, please. The meaning of life is Monty Python. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7319 Registered: Dec-04 | http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7320 Registered: Dec-04 | This one, Stryvn. http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#common-question |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7323 Registered: Dec-04 | Switchable stereo 2-way/3-way or mono 4-way operation Several SUPER-X PRO's can be linked for unlimited frequency bands 24 dB/octave, state-variable Linkwitz-Riley filters for precise frequency separation Completely linear, phase-compensated amplitude response when summing signals Independent IGC limiter per output MUTE button, phase reverse switch and adjustable output level per band for easy system adaptation Crossover frequencies adjustable between 44 - 930 Hz and 440 Hz -- 9.3 kHz (x 10) Switchable 25 Hz subsonic filter per input (12 dB/octave) Switchable equalization for constant-directivity horns Adjustable delay (up to 2 msec.) for runtime and phase correction Servo-balanced inputs and outputs with XLR connectors Manufactured under ISO9000 certified management This product, while rather industrial, handles the balanced issue that I have. It seems to have what is required for a start. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10435 Registered: May-04 | . "Why is it so that active XO's are required? My speakers have 3 drivers and 3 crossovers. What,specifically, does an active crossover do for a bi-amp configuration? In volumes, please." Did you answer your own question or do I need to add something? Elliot is like many EE's, he has less than favorable opinions of tubes in some applications. Tubes will be more linear than transistors in an active crossover and have no more problems than a tube pre amp would present. You can buy inexpensive active crossovers for under $100. There's a Behringer I found at Parts Express for $95 that appears (on paper) to have desirable specs. Like anything hifi, the more you spend, the less you are likely to hear. The question is still; what do you expect to get from all this? . |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 195 Registered: Dec-06 | "Almost always better to use two amps for two channels." The question is still; what do you expect to get from all this? I expect better. I am working under the impression that more power is better. Less volume knob. Happier speaks. Opened up soundstage. No? Why is two amps for two channels better than? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10438 Registered: May-04 | . OK, I'm confused as to who's conducting this thread. Who am I talking to? Someone who owns Classe or someone who owns Rotel? "I expect better." Don't we all! What makes you think doing whatever you're planning on doing is going to result in something "better"? You won't change the basic requirements of the speakers. If you go to active X-overs and mono amplifiers, you will have eliminated the power sucking passive X-overs in the speakers. But the drivrs will remain at the same sensitivity and you will need the same amount of power to get them to the same volume level whether you're running one, two five or ten amplifiers into them. So, the volume control position will be pretty much the same as it is now. The drivers will still be the same drivers and the enclosures will still be the same enclosures. New amplifiers won't change the character of those two items. So how much is going to change for the better? Happier speakers? Just how do you suppose that will happen? If the amplifiers are still producing the same amount of power to get to the same volume, the distortion product of the amplifier will remain roughly the same as will the distortion product of the speakers. The current draw from the amplifier will only change if you eliminate the passive X-overs, otherwise the speaker will still demand as much current from two amplifiers as it will one. Even with active X-overs, the speaker stays pretty much the same speaker you had before you did anything. Unless you screw something up! Do you know what type of filter or what order of filters are used in your speakers? If not, then I wouldn't change very much, if anything. If you change from a LR filter to a Butterworth, you will change the basic character of the speaker. That's a job best left to someone who knows what results they can expect from whatever filter type they choose. Are the drivers connected in reverse polarity to compensate for the passive X-overs phase shift? If you don't know, I wouldn't do anything. And so on and so on. "I am working under the impression that more power is better." Then you're wrong. You as much power as you'll ever need and no more. You need the best quality power you can find, not more power. Five watts might be enough under the right circumstances. Buying more of less isn't the way to find something better. "Opened up soundstage." How? What's that mean to you? The speakers are still the same speakers working into the same room. What makes you think something different is magically going to occur? "Why is two amps for two channels better?" Less crosstalk. Active X-overs and dual mono amps are not where I would be thinking about putting my money with Rotel and Paradigm. Think higher performance, not just more stuff. Get out of the value for money lines and buy into higher quality for higher dollar product. You can tweak and tweak and tweak a 289 Mustang and it will still get shut down by a stock big block. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7327 Registered: Dec-04 | The behringer active XO's should be delivered in a couple of weeks, I will see what happens from there, to make a proper bi-amp setup. These units are a bit pro, but do accept XLR's. I suspect that the balanced connection is not transformer based, so the connection will be flipped twice(bad), but we all have to start the understanding somewhere. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 196 Registered: Dec-06 | <------Off to read more on active XO's and McIntosh Thanks, Jan |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7330 Registered: Dec-04 | Stryvn, post your findings, will ya'? |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 197 Registered: Dec-06 | oh....and to listen to the damn music!!!! |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 198 Registered: Dec-06 | I can post my findings, Nuck. But it ain't gonna be news to you...probably stuff you've got your head around already. I've got to start with the basics. I suspect my findings are only going to lead me into further questions. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7331 Registered: Dec-04 | Questions are good. Answers maybe not always to your liking, but the banter is worthwhile. |
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Silver Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 504 Registered: Apr-06 | Personaly I like Bi-amp'ing . I like the idea of having a seperate amp driving each section(low-Mid/highs) |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7345 Registered: Dec-04 | Kyle, have you read some of the links? I like bi-amping as well, but without active XO's, it means little. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 200 Registered: Dec-06 | Jan, Can I reach you outside of this forum? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10443 Registered: May-04 | . I tend not to give an email address through the forum, there are too may nutcases that I don't want to deal with. I'll contact you. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7406 Registered: Dec-04 | Speaking of nutcases, I have delved a bit more into the active XO scenario. Without turning a screw (or dropping a dime) the present scenario could work out with the Time Window 1a speakers being opened up. If I ever find the page I saw before with simplest Time window mods, I will likely need to recap the crossovers in there, due to age. The caps used did not fare too well, as I understand. There is also a mapout of applying modelling clay inside there, for very much better bass response. The XO's of the 1a's are a desperately complicated thing it seems, and not for the faint of heart, so if the experiment goes forth, they will be left alone. I should also ask Mike W. if he minds, as they were a gift from him. I will defer asking Mrs. Nuck what she thinks, until such a time as I need to see 'that look'. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10476 Registered: May-04 | . " There is also a mapout of applying modelling clay inside there, for very much better bass response." Consider a "look" provided. I understand that if you fill your tires with modelling cement, they won't roll as much in the curves. Worth a try? . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7412 Registered: Dec-04 | Flatter response. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10478 Registered: May-04 | . Run flats? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7414 Registered: Dec-04 | I'm outta gas, Vigne. Toss me a bone? |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 395 Registered: May-06 | Nuck, Isn't that why you have 3 Time Windows? So you could play Dr. Kildare? Have at it my friend. Of course I am figuring you would at least crank them up a bit to see what you have and what you want to change. Have you done that yet? Thoughts? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7421 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks, Mike. I have not connected them yet, in fact. With the one kid moving and another storing stuff downstairs for a few more weeks, I have no room for much of anything, let alone musical enjoyment. D'oh! |