Building new system - need help
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New member Username: CrazywaderPost Number: 1 Registered: May-07 | New on the board - and impressed with the level of knowledge. Hope you can offer some assistance to an old guy. I've seen where many post here include systems which drive HT systems as well as "just" music. After 20 years I think it's time I update my system. I've been extremely happy with my NAD reciever that pushed two Cerwin Vega speakers - strickly CD's. I do not desire to build a HT system. I'm looking to recreate the cleanest reproduction of music. I generally listen to jazz, classical, and limited rock. The volume is kept low - I expect the speaker to produce quality sound at a low level most of the time. I rarely "opener 'er up" for the neighbors. The room is square (~ 25 x 25 w/ 9' ceilings) hard wood floors, with several entrances/exits breaking up the walls. Vocal is secondary to instrumental but important. 1. I'm leaning toward the NAD C720BEE Stereo Receiver mainly because I've been very happy with my old NAD. I've noticed several posters with humming problems but those were a/v units. Should I reconsider? 2. Budget: I'd like to keep the receiver under $700 but am flexible. I'd prefer to keep the two speakers to under $500/ea. And, I'd prefer floor standing units that blend into the surroundings of the furniture in the room (ie, prefer not to look like I'm advertising for someone - good taste only). Open to considerations, please help. Respectfully, Greg |
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Bronze Member Username: ShawnharmanPost Number: 74 Registered: Dec-05 | the humming problem as far as I know is just with the A/V receivers but im understanding that they also got it fixed, if your only in it for two channel have you considered an integrated amp?? if so you should check this out http://www.spearitsound.com/nad/C352.asp |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10370 Registered: May-04 | . https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/reviews/209464.html https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/193312.html http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/super3xrs.html . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4683 Registered: Feb-05 | The NAD C720BEE is a very fine receiver and does not suffer the same hum problems as the last generation NAD AVR's. "ie, prefer not to look like I'm advertising for someone - good taste only" Totally subjective my friend. Not many good floorstanders in your price range however I would recommend the Paradigm Monitor 7's. They are very efficient (easy to drive) and sound good with a variety of music. Like all Paradigm speakers they take a while to break in. http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/fronts-monitor-monitor7-model-2-4-1-17.parad igm They retail for $649 and can be had for at least 10% below that.. Just a bit over your budget but worth it. I don't know what your source is but I do hope it's up to the level of the gear mentioned. |
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New member Username: CrazywaderPost Number: 2 Registered: May-07 | Shawn, the receiver I currently have is one unit - the speakers plug directly into it - which I assume has an integrated amp. I thought the new NAD C720BEE was similar - the unit will drive the speakers. If I'm wrong, guess I have a lot more research to do. Please advise. Art, good to know the 720 does not suffer from the hum mentioned by others. My comment re: the advertising is that I'm hoping not to have too unique looking of a speaker box. The walnut boxes with brown covers I currently own have a small CV emblem. The Paradigm speaker you mentioned looks fine. I'll be sure to demo them. They are well within my budget - $500 for each speaker. One question, what do you mean by, "I don't know what your source is but I do hope it's up to the level of the gear mentioned." Thanks in advance. Greg |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4685 Registered: Feb-05 | What's the CD player (source) you are using...BTW I misunderstood your budget and would have recommended something else at 1K per pair. Once again pushing your budget to the max I would look at the Revel Concerta F12..fabulous speaker capable of immense dynamics and subtle nuance as well. Priced at around $1300, take off 10-15% and you are in the ballpark. http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/revel_concerta_f12.htm http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcomponents/706revel/ http://www.revelspeakers.com/products/product-overview.asp?ID=19 If it weren't bedtime I'd make more suggestions. Remember if your source ain't good it's all for nothing!!! BTW Shawn has a point relative to an integrated amp. NAD C352 with the Revels and oh my!!! If AM/FM is a must, then so be it. |
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Bronze Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 74 Registered: Feb-07 | The Paradigm Monitor 7's and NAD are a good combo. I have this set-up at home (NAD C272 driving the 7's). Sounds fantastic even at low volume levels. |
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New member Username: CrazywaderPost Number: 3 Registered: May-07 | Thanks for the recommendations. Thus far no one seems opposed NAD. Obviously the speaker selection is personal however, please keep the suggestions coming - I really have no idea what's available. It's been 20 years since I last spent time sitting in a room selecting a set of speakers and while I'm sure no new laws of physics involving sound have been discovered, new materials must obviously improve quality so any help will be super. I am curious about the choice of tweeter-mid-woofer vs. just a single speaker or two speakers. My ear is pretty discerning particularly so of string and wind instruments in an orchestra. I played a trumpet for years in jazz and classical music so I'm a critic when it comes to reproduction. I hope how I've described it so you understand. I'm interested learning further thoughts on an amp. I've stated before I'm happy with the quality of NAD and would consider an additional unit if it will allow a cleaner reproduction of sound throught the speakers at lower volumes. Does THD multiply when the signal goes to an amp before arriving at the speaker and therefore necessitate a higher quality unit (pre amp instead of the receiver I'm considering?) Thoughts are welcome here - particulary where the unit fits in the system (pre or post receiver?). I do enjoy listening to radio programs and I realize that may sound absurd to folks with such developed "ears" for quality music. No apologies - just an old guy who knows what he likes. Regarding the "source," thanks for the definition. Now, I open myself up to ignorance. I've used a Sony CD player for years. What have I been missing out on for that decision? If you think I should move up, please provide some choices. I guess if I can keep a CD player under $500 (flexible here) I'd be happy. I appreciate all the help so far. Please keep the ideas coming. regards, Greg |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10376 Registered: May-04 | . "Thus far no one seems opposed NAD." If that's supposed to read "opposed to NAD", didn't you see me with my hand up? I wasn't asking to go to the restroom. |
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New member Username: CrazywaderPost Number: 4 Registered: May-07 | Art, W-O-W! The Revel f12 looks like an incredible speaker - or certainly at least great marketing. I'll be sure to include these in my choice. I noticed they are rated at 6 ohms impedance where the NAD unit advertises it's rated at 8. Does this have any impact on the peformance / quality of reproduction and what impact will it have long term on the amp? Is the speaker of higher quality than the unit I'm planning to push it with (i.e. putting perfume on a pig)? Regards, Greg |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2124 Registered: Sep-04 | Greg, There is an element of perfume on a pig (lovely expression) I feel with these choices. I am also concerned that you haven't picked up on the mutterings about source. The source is your primary listening medium - CD player, turntable, radio (tuner nowadays), MP3 player, digital streamer (such as Squeezebox), Media Centre (a PC with a big disk)... When building a system, the quality of the source is just as important, f not more important than anything else in the chain. If the quality of the signal is compromised by comparison to the rest of the system, then that compromise will be shown up by the rest of the system as it gets amplified and displayed in technicolor by your better speakers. A quality source will be held back as the signal gets degraded through lesser amplification and speakers, but at least this way the signal is the best you can get through the chain. Some people strive for a balanced system and this works well of course, but it's a real mistake not to consider the source just as carefully as any other part of the system. The other thing to bear in mind is that digital sources do soound different. Although the signal pulled off a CD is digital, there is enough manipulation of that in a CD player and enough scope for design differences to create many different sounds, just as in the old days with turntables, arms and cartridges. The odd thing (and again just as in the old days), it's not just what components one has in the box that counts but how it's used too that determines whether one gets a truly musical solution. Needless to say, all the CD player designers will tell you theirs is the best or the most correct! They can't all be right, so it's down to you to choose your favourite flavour - or whichever compromise suits you. We, of course, can guide based on our own preferences, so a dollop of salt is required here...  A couple of other things: 20 years ago cabling was just an accessory which made no difference. Nowadays it's a fully fledged industry of its own. I'm talking about the interconnects between CD player and amplifier, and speaker cables. These bits of wire can cost as little or as much as you can dream (honest!). In the 90's there was a rule of thumb that said that 10% of your total system budget should be allotted to cables. It's not a bad rule, or at least a good start. It's remarkable how much difference a wire can make. In NAD terms, the CD players at the C720 end of the spectrum are the C525BEE and the C542. The C525BEE is a new model which came out just 3 or 4 months ago. It's a fine machine for the money generally speaking. The C542 is altogether a better machine than the C525BEE. It's been out for at least a couple of years now and I'd be surprised if it didn't receive the BEE treatment in the next few months. That said, the C542 would definitely be my preference at this stage and it would make a lot of sense in thekind of system you're considering - at this point anyway! The C720 is a stereo receiver. Stereo receivers used to be very common in the 80's but nowadays they're a rare breed, which is why there is only one in NAD's range of electronics. The 720 is based on the slightly older C320BEE amplifier. This was a real favourite for a couple of years. It has been updated to C325BEE and the new amp is quite a bit better than the 320BEE. So the question in my mind here is whether the 720 will get the same treatment and become a 725 soon. I honestly don't know the answer to that. The basic design of the 720 is a good one so you should enjoy this receiver quite a bit; I'm just letting you know where these items are in the scheme of things as I see it. On speakers, for every design, you have a different presentation or voice. Each designer takes their own experience, preferences, hang-ups, whathaveyou to produce a speaker. Speakers come in three main impedance groups - 4, 6 and 8 ohms. In theory, the higher number means they should be easier to drive. In practice, the impedance is allied quite closely to efficiency. Typical efficiency is rated at 87db/w/m - i.e. for a 1 watt of signal power fed into the speaker, you will get 87db of sound at 1m distance from the speaker. Efficiency varies between low 80s and up 100 or so. Most speakers are around 87. This is a logarithmic scale, so 10db more is twice as loud so the difference between 87 and 90 is quite substantial, and enough to negate 4 ohms versus 8 ohms for example. The other thing is that impedance changes with the frequency of the signal. So the impedance rating of a speaker is a nominal figure aroudn which the true impedance changes depending on the signal frequencies. This is why amplifiers sometimes struggle with a speaker and sometimes not. It depends on the current the amplifier can deliver and the impedance characteristics of the speaker. Why is this of relevance? Well, the more capable, more expensive speakers tend to be a little bit more demanding of an amplifier. The Revels are reputedly very good speakers indeed, but I fancy they'd be expected to be used with something a little better than a 720BEE. Note that pricing of stereo pairs is usually quoted per pair, not singly. The only situation I know of where speaker prices are quoted singly is with centre speakers or occasionally satellites which may be bought singly. So - consider that the market for stereo receivers is prety small nowadays. If you really must have one, then you have a few choices (Rotel have models as well as NAD). If you decide that you can afford the extra space for a separate tuner (if you even want one), then your choices expand to include a few other brands. You may wish to visit a dealer or two to discuss this. You seem to have a handle on your budget which is great since you can provide that guidance to a dealer and s/he can scope a system out for you with that in mind. You also get to ask questions and see what is in your area. Things to think about, and I hope I haven't confused you too much! Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4695 Registered: Feb-05 | Actually the Revel's were used with an NAD C372 and NAD C542 cd player in this review. The Revel's are a speaker that should perform very well with mid fi gear as long as your source is reasonably good. They are also good enough to go along for the ride if and when you upgrade electronics. http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/revel_concerta_f12.htm |
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New member Username: CrazywaderPost Number: 5 Registered: May-07 | First things first, as I see Jan has his hand in the air :-) "Thus far no one seems opposed NAD." "If that's supposed to read "opposed to NAD", didn't you see me with my hand up? I wasn't asking to go to the restroom." Sorry Jan but, your point was too subtle for me. I've read everything here on this thread along with the links you and others have posted and have not seen what you're driving at. Keep in mind, I've never been accused of being the sharpest knife in the drawer. I did however come across a ton of other things you have written so I certainly recognize you're an expert. If you don't mind, give it another try as I'm listening, honest... Frank, thanks a ton. I believe what you (and what Jan) must be getting at is that the source is absolutely fundamental to the system. So, unless Jan comes back and tells me to look at something specific other than NAD, how does the following list look like for a starting point: CD player: NAD C542 ~$500 Integrated Amp: NAD C352 ~$600 Tuner: C425 (eventually) ??? Speakers: ~$1000 Revel f12's Omega 3XRS Paradigm Mon.7 Monitor Audio ? sub-total: ~$2100 cables: ~$200 total: ~ $2300 $600 more than originally planned. And, I don't have a tuner...yet. I have an appointment at a place who's an NAD dealer among other items. Assuming he's got everything I want to look at, I'll have him switch between the C720 and the C352 and hope for my wallet's sake, my hearing isn't what it once was. Still open to suggestions on any and all the components. regards, Greg |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2131 Registered: Sep-04 | Greg, You're on a better path now in my view! The choice seems a better balance although, me personally, I'd put more into the electronics and less into the speakers, but that's in part due to my long-standing source-first philosophy. For example, I would go with a Rega Apollo CD player which is the one to beat in the midrange quarter ($1000) and either C720BEE or C352 or preferably Rega's own Brio at $600 (no remote though) and a pair of Acoustic Energy Aegis EVO 3 floorstanders at around $500. I believe this model (note, it's the Aegis EVO 3 not the more expensive Aegis 3) has just been, or is about to be, discontinued so you may get it at a nice price. Musically, the Rega Apollo/Brio is a cracking combination. Not the last word in power or warmth but just a huge amount of fun and involvement. The AE speakers are similarly engaging and remarkably good value for the money. The C352 is also a very good amplifier and has remote control as well as more power than the Brio, if not the finesse. The C720 is the 'worst' of the three, still good but lower power, lower resolution and lower involvement. Don't get me wrong - the C542/C352 is a good combination and it can drive those Revels (or any of the choices you mention) relatively easily so you should get reasonably good results because I know the NADs well . It's just that for the same money I'd choose the rega combination instead purely because I've had such good results with the Rega Apollo and Brio both on their own and as a combination. You have a relatively large room to fill too, so my usual choice of small monitors is really out of the question. There aren't many inexpensive floorstanders that I rate. The AEs are the only ones I rate below $1000, that I've heard of course! Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: CrazywaderPost Number: 6 Registered: May-07 | I'm not certain what exactly an integrated amp actually does. Also, what does a pre-amp do and is there any recommendations to add that to the system or will the integrated amp suffice? regards, Greg |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10384 Registered: May-04 | . The Fostex's are efficient drivers (the Omegas are a 93dB speaker), so not much power is required to drive them to reasonable levels in your size room. They are also a very simple electrical load on the amplifier which is important in my opinion. A simple, small wattage amplifier can make good things happen when connected to a speaker like the Fostex. Single driver speakers are important to consider due to their cohesive sound that relies upon nuance, dynamic shadings and believability to convey the work of the musicians. I know of no multi-driver speakers that can compare to a top notch SDFR dollar for dollar in allowing the musicians into your room. SDFR's have their limitations but they are typically volume oriented which doesn't seem to be a problem in your case. At 93dB with 1 watt into the speaker, the Omegas, or any similar speaker, should be more than loud enough with a less than 25 watt amplifier. http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html I would actually recommend a tube amplifier paired with the SDFR's but they tend to be a bit more expensive and not everyone's cup o' tea when it comes to maintenance. Though you might be able to shift funds around to find a well built tube amp within your budget. I agree with Frank that better electronics will give better results with less expensive speakers when the combination finds a synergistic match. Smaller stand mounted speakers will deliver more believable soundstaging (musicians in your room) and are typically faster than large floorstanders with the sound being less attached to the speaker enclosures in a smaller monitor type design. Add a good subwoofer, if desired, and you potentially have a very good full range system for the lowest dollars spent. The amplifiers I would direct you towards are the new class "D" and particularly the class "T" amplifiers. The Sonic Impact is the best known of the bunch though class D & T are making terrific sounds for minimal dollars compared to a more usual class AB amplifier. http://www.stereomojo.com/SHOOTOUT2007INTEGRATEDS.htm While the very big dollar class "A" & "AB" amps (NAD runs in class "AB") still have little to worry about from the class T designs, the affordable class T amps offer sound quality that is, IMO, far superior to the NAD sound quality for far less money spent on electronics. Obviously, there are dozens of ways to configure a good sounding system within your budget but this is the direction I would be looking towards if I had the money and the desire for a new system. Read (go back to my original post on this thread), consider and then ask questions. http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/index.html . |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2136 Registered: Sep-04 | Greg, Jan's post is an excellent example of a completely different but just as valid approach as mine. In his case, he's advocating the use of a typically low power amplifier (the Sonic Impact is around 10 watts/channel), into a very high efficiency speaker, thus giving you similar output with less power consumption. The result from this combination will most likely be very different to the NAD or Rega ones. And yet the premise of sorting out the source remains, which just goes to show how important it is to keep this in mind. To answer your questions: A preamplifier (sometimes called a control amplifier) is one which allows you to control volume, choose which source to listen to, usually has one or more tape loop facilities, occasionally bass and treble controls. Its output is the same level as that of a typical source. This is a low power output and often called Low Level therefore. Some preamps allow for several outputs to plug into several power amplifiers at once, and some also supply line level outputs for subwoofers. A power amplifier takes a line level input and really boosts the power to the speakers. As this is the high power signal, this is often called High Level. An integrated amplifier is one which takes both functions of preamp and power amp and integrates them into a single unit. A stereo receiver is an integrated amplifier with a built-in tuner or radio. The benefit of a pre/power over the integrated is that the delicate low power signals in the preamp are kept away from the noisier environment of the power amp and the preamp signals have a dedicated power supply which can regulate those signals more accurately. At the level you are considering it's less usual to include a pre/power combination. It's a question of economies of scale. If you pay $500 for an integrated amplifier, you are paying for one packing box, one set of packing materials, one manual, one shipment, one case (for the unit itself), one set of marketing materials. The price of these is built into the price you pay as a proportion of the cost of build. If you go for a pre/power at the same price, your incidental costs have doubled. Now on lower priced items the proportion of those costs is already high. The proportion is going to be high on a $500 and a lot lower on a $1000 item simply because generally, they are fairly constant costs. So we are now in the game of cost/benefit ratios. As the price of the units goes up the benefits outweigh the costs significantly, but we are getting cleverer at this game and there are many super-integrateds (at the $4000 mark or above) which are making a lot of lower priced split equipment blush. Regards, Frank. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10389 Registered: May-04 | . GT, it might be hepful if you outline for us what your priorities are for sound quality. The CV's you have owned are not very similar in character to most consumer speakers of today. IMO, the NAD you've owned has a very distinct sound quality also. Can you please inform us as to what you find important when choosing audio gear? As always, avoid such simplifications as, "I want tight bass, clear mids and clean highs." We all do. They are expensive to do well. At the price you are projecting, compromises must be considered in order to get the most from each component working together rather than separately. Typically, I consider the source (the CD player) to be highly important in building a system. However, depending on what you value and what you can live without, I doubt that spending $1,000 on a CD player will benefit you in realistic terms or that you would notice the difference between a $1k Rega Apollo and a good $400 or less player. But I don't know that until you tell me so, which I haven't seen so far. Other than not requiring high volumes for the most part, what is it you must have from the system sound to satisfy your tastes? More importantly, what can you live without to get what you require for the dollars you have to spend? . |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 228 Registered: Jan-07 | Rega sucks for jazz in my opinion. Good for classical, though. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7205 Registered: Dec-04 | Another way, GT. You say you are attuned to string and wind instruments..great! Is your main listening in these areas? Do you prefer the clarity of these instruments over the bassoon or bass rolls of others? If trade-offs must be made, this is very important. You may end up with a purpose driven setup, but with your purpose in mind. |
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New member Username: CrazywaderPost Number: 7 Registered: May-07 | Well, after multiple days sitting in a pretty nice shop with some folks willing to spend a lot of time and who had a lot of patience, I went through a lot of speakers. We set up the NAD 352 along with an Apollo CD player and I ran through several pieces of music that represent my "habbits:" Wynton Marsalis, Spyro Gyro, and Yo-Yo Ma. I also included Norah Jones for female vocal. What I quickly discovered was that no matter how much a speaker costs, I'm not a fan of the "book shelf" style - they just couldn't produce the full sound I was looking for. While I recognize that isn't too descriptive, my ear just was not very happy. At one point I went to another listening room and played a Yo-Yo Ma solo on a $100K system just to see if there was something wrong with the CD. I discovered that after listening to the same speakers for 20 years, my ears have grown accustomed to a certain sound that only a floor standing box would produce. once we were on to that, the salesman offered a variety of speakers. I have to be honest; the Totem Forest was just incredible. As soon as I played the first track through them I has a very large grin from ear to ear. I passed on similar style speakers that were both cheaper and far more expensive - the Forest didn't require much power and I believe reproduced the original recording very close. I felt as thought the speakers disappeared as the sound surrounded me. I tend to desire that my opinion is similar to others when it comes to buying a product so I was a bit hesitant to find there wasn't too many reviews that I could find on them however, my ears did not decieve me and I'm now the proud owner of a set in cheery. So, next week I'm taking my Sony CD player in to compare that to the Apollo and a few others. I'm hoping my ears are not as good as they once were. I'd like to thank all of you for offering such good advice. I read everything you wrote and took it all to heart. I'll be watching for future posts from you as you can't buy info this good! Thanks! Greg |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7420 Registered: Dec-04 | I'm now the proud owner of a set in cheery. I think you meant cherry, Greg, then again, your description may be better! Congratulations on the Totems.Excellent choice! |
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New member Username: CrazywaderPost Number: 8 Registered: May-07 | Just an update - thanks to all your help - I finally wired the system I brought home. I took to heart what you guys said about an all-in-one reciever and compared it to an integrated amp - hearing a significant improvement. So I decided to forgo the reciever and instead went with the NAD 372. Combined with the Totem Forests (in "cherry") I'm quite happy. As to the source, it didn't take long to push both old Sony CD players aside for the Rega Apollo - an increidible difference in so many ways. Aside from blowing my "budget" out of the water - it's only money, right? - I couldn't be happier. Something worth noting re: the Forest speakers. Totem recommends 85-90 hours of break-in time - something skeptical sounding. IT'S TRUE. Not sure if all speakers require a break-in period but in just a two week period I've noticed a big difference - particularly the development of a fuller richer bass - warmer sounding than the original somewhat muted that I heard when first wired. Additionally, I'm listening to a piece by Stamitz (Viola Concerto in D Major) and over the past few weeks I'm discerning subtleties in some of the instruments (both string and wind) that I didn't hear initially. So, for what it's worth, IMHO, there's definitely a break-in period necessary for the speaker. Thanks again for everyone's input. I'm delighted with all the suggestions everyone offered as they all panned out. Greg |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2216 Registered: Sep-04 | Hello Greg, Glad to hear things are working out for you. I never imagined you'd be looking at Forests: 1) Forests are well above your initial budget. 2) They like power (the 372 is actually very powerful). 3) I tend to match them to even more expensive electronics! I agree that the Forest is an excellent speaker with a huge sound from a small enclosure. If you are single-wiring, it will be worth your while to remove the standard brass links that connect the treble and bass at the back of the speaker, and replace these with some decent cable (preferably the same as the speaker cable you're using). The standard brass links seem to degrade the sound and the outlay of a couple of jumper leads is going to be minimal. Forests take at least 200 hours to run in completely. The Apollo and 372 also take some time to run in. I suggest leaving them on repeat for a few days, even at low to middling volume. The Apollo fills out and becomes more cohesive. The 372 loses an initial bright sheen to it. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: KillamabillaClear Lake, TX USA Post Number: 14 Registered: May-07 | Greg, congrats on a great system. I love NAD but agree with jan's advice on the t-amp since I was a 352 owner though of course the t-amp would have a hard time with your Forest speakers. Good luck with your Apollo I am on my third and keeping my fingers crossed that this one will hold up for a change. |
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