Upcoming attractions
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7131 Registered: Dec-04 | I am attempting to align the various sources for an in-depth comparo. The Apollo, Rotel 1072, Classe trans/dac and computer feed, in and out of the Dac, with as similar cabling as I can. Do not adjust your set. |
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Silver Member Username: MrtomasuloSt. Louis, MO USA Post Number: 143 Registered: Mar-05 | Looking forward to it, Nuck! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7215 Registered: Dec-04 | I managed tobring the Apollo and the Rotel 1072 together with matching(dared) cables tonight, after re-arranging the stand. See, the girls use a vcr for the exercise tapes(taboo) and the younger visitors use a game during the week. Bottom line... my stereo looks like a pot of spaghetti, everybody has buggered with everything, and the ol' man is short of luck. Rats! So I have managed the 2 sources tonight, for a (short) listen. The Dared I/C's fit nice and snug into the Rotel, the Apollo, not so much. As Art had mentioned on another thread, the fit of cables into the Apollo is devised so as only to allow the Kate Moss of the cable world into the lair. The pudgy not need apply, at least not with ease. I twisted the second lead into the Rega's port, accompanied by the ratcheting sound of knurled knobs in disagreement. The rear panel of the Rega was compliant enough, but just. Was Rega expecting the minimum recommended daily allowance of cabling? With both players running into the Classe cp50 pre, the rest is laid to the pre(balanced) signal to the amp. At this point, I might remind all, that I have no tonal controls. It is a short play tonight, so I chose 2 very familiar issues. James Taylor Live!, and my reference, John Mellencamp. Both players and the whole system were fully warmed. James Taylor, cut after cut is a very well known cd for us. The Apollo, however presented a very different take on things, as compared to other players. The Apollo delivered smooth sounds, to be sure, excellent highs, reasonable lows, but something different, somehow. 'Shower the people' was a different listen to be sure, and very good, displaying an accuracy that I expected the Rotel to better. So I shifted the disc to the 1072 and replayed the track. Again, I got the smooth sound, with the sharp guitar chords on the intro, but something was different. Somehow. I shifted to John Mellencamps 'uh huh', my reference, and listened first on the Rotel. I have listened to this cd a zillion times in band practise, vocal practise and well, while drunk(loud). I know it well. Then I played it on the Apollo, and found what I was wondering about. It plays fast. I don't mean attack fast, it plays faster than recorded. First impressions, one cd only, but no doubt about the cd. I will try a few more tomorrow, I am left to watch the 3rd period of the Senators/Sabres game. Seems fast. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1358 Registered: Nov-05 | Nuck, It may be PRaT. I too thought the Rega was a little faster. I synched both the Apollo and 3910 for comparing. It was the same as when I demoed the Rega and compared it with the C542. It was like the Apollo was running on high octane gas, but the numbers stayed the same and when I switched back and forth, everything was still in sync. Try timing a track on both players - without relying on their displays. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7230 Registered: Dec-04 | I will do that today, MR. I will run the trans dac as well, I ran out of outlets on my distribution strip! |
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Bronze Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 40 Registered: Aug-06 | So.....what was the verdict? Was it fast? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8377 Registered: Dec-04 | Nope. The tracks played to exactly the same lenght with the Apollo, the Rotel, the Classe trans/Dac and the pc transport to Dac. But each one plays to it's own pace and timing. Quite remarkable, actually! |
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Bronze Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 41 Registered: Aug-06 | Very cool. Thanks for update. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 436 Registered: Dec-06 | My brain tells me this is not possible. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8383 Registered: Dec-04 | This is you brain. This your brain on Roger Waters. Any questions? |
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Bronze Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 45 Registered: Aug-06 | Styvn - I've seen Roger Waters associated with you on a couple of posts. Floyd is my favorite band. Did you see Waters on the DSOTM tour? I saw it at the ACC in Toronto. We were 23rd row center on the floor. I've seen alot of shows in my life, none better. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8388 Registered: Dec-04 | Waters only associates with the finer folks. like Stryvn. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 647 Registered: May-06 | Waters does well at my place too...FWIW Between vinyl and CDs I likely have more Waters / Floyd than the average bunny. Suppose since it's my favorite band too that is the way it should be. stryvn, you starting a Waters / Floyd thread any time soon. Chill, just kidding dude. LOL |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 216 Registered: Jul-07 | And you like the Apollo best? If the sound quality/enjoyment is close and the Apollo costs on the average almost twice as much, that makes the Rotel a good value. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8389 Registered: Dec-04 | It is a good value, Kevin. However, for different listening pleasures, moods, if you will, the Apollo plays guitar rock reasonably well.The Rega also plays Ella Fitzgerald or Nat King Cole Christmas music equally well, but does not convey classical as well as the Classe transdac. The Apollo is more complete all-round. I did not pay near retail for my 3 month old Rega either.  |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2317 Registered: Sep-04 | Nuck, I looked online and the Dareds don't look that big, certainly not as large as the Chord Signature (think two runs per channel instead of one, and as expensive as the player) that I have used with the Rega. As for the spacing between left and right channels, the Rega's is pretty much standard, so I wonder what's going on with your interconnects? Now that you've hit on the pace thing that the Rega does (and incidentally, that is a common thread with Rega's presentation), the next thing you may tune into will be the timing. You'll find that leading edge of beats is better defined and more 'in synch'(?) with the rest of the band. On the Rotel (fine though it is), the leading edge of the beat (usually provided by the bass line) is slightly smeared and lags a fraction behind. This slows the presentation by comparison to the Rega but also seems just a bit 'off'. The Apollo provides some obvious cues to the less experienced in the form of extra resolution and cleaner sound, but its real strength is this portrayal of pace and timing in my view. Some people just seem to tune into that aspect immediately but some don't get it and almost need to be made aware of it...it's almost like a different way of listening. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 46 Registered: Aug-06 | Waters does keep fine company. |
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Bronze Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 47 Registered: Aug-06 | Although.....there are a few guys I wish he'd start hanging around with again. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8395 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks, Frank. The knurls on the interconnects seem to be raised above whatever standard exists, the better to twist-lock them, I suppose. Art was not happy with the Dared/Apollo fit at all, I managed mine, albeit with a piece of teflon tape between them on the final twist. They are also quite stiff about 20cm along, negating against wall installs without putting undue stress on the back panel of some pieces. The pace is indeed a signature Rega forte, as evidenced by the may owners commenting here and elsewhere, be it a player or Brio or any componant. As for timing, I cannot identify the very aspect. Were I more of a musician, I might, but I am lowly. The ability of a piece to re-create a sudden change of pace or rythym would constitute timing, so far as I have listened to, and what a treat when done well! Since I am 60% rock, the opportunity does not always arise to appreciate quality timing. I suppose the last time was listening with Stryvn to Rush:Signals, and the outstanding performance from Neil Peart on percussion. We both even commented on the timing fact. That was with his very capable Rotel pre/power and 1072. I did not notice any roll-in to the bass notes at all, just attack, and no roll-off at all for this recording(the recording is A1 for me). This constituted very good timing to me. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11157 Registered: May-04 | . I will repeat here the comments I made to clients when explaining pace and timing. I've done this previously on the forum but this seems a good time to do it again. If you've ever played in a band or orchestra or listened to your kid's school band rehearse, you should be able to imagine what constitutes "timing". The first few run throughs everyone is primarily listening to themself and there is little cohesion or attention to playing as a group. Eventually the confidence level grows to the point the players begin to hear other performers within the group and the music begins to come together as one piece. The final run throughs have almost everyone playing the same beat at the same time. The "attack", if you'd like, of each note is as if it were from one instrument not a dozen separate instruments. Depending on the skill of the group, the pacing of the piece develops from tentative to confident and the music can move from a tottering stumble to a fast trot. Eventually everyone is moving the music forward as one group. Now consider the difference in timing and pacing beween your average high school band, a college orchestra and a professional symphony. That's pacing and timing and those very differences are what your ear perceives from various components. High end is about always having the professional musicians at your disposal. If the music is tentative or the pacing is awkward, then, most likely, the piece of equipment or the system has problems or you listen to a lot of garage bands. Multi-mic'd and over-dubbed recordings can create the same sensation since the timing of musical cues can be obscured by the multiple takes and reconstructions performed in the post recording process. If timing is lost, pacing usually follows suit. Some equipment trades "accuracy" for emotion. It's rare to have both in the same component. If you prefer the tiniest details in your music, you might wish to step back and listen to the music. Ask yourself what would you hear at a live event. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8399 Registered: Dec-04 | I often fail at 'live event' consultations, as most are amplified which I attend. However, the timing and pace of these are controlled by sound guys and speaker placement. However, so are live acoustical performances. Your seating position, the acoustics of the venue, perhaps even the direction of the oboe player in relation to your ear. When it all works, in any situation, it just works. The precision and emotion of the performance, the accuracy and fluidity of the content and the receptiveness(or state of mind) of the listener all combine to make the experience what it is. However, when the venue is your living room, the performance can be what you want. Reposition the speakers, fiddle a wire or whatnot.Remove all the seat cushions and pull back the drapes. The elements of a performance can be tailored. Now, whether you are after the truest reproduction possible, or a little of this or that, the timing is affected. The pace less so, I believe. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11158 Registered: May-04 | . "The elements of a performance can be tailored. Now, whether you are after the truest reproduction possible, or a little of this or that, the timing is affected." I can't recall "this" or "that" causing timing problems. How do you find they affect timing? . |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 220 Registered: Jul-07 | Right, what I mean by live music is not the 98% of crappy venues where the sound man has serious hearing loss and bad taste, where you have to wear ear plugs. I once saw Art Blakey Jazz messengers in a club which should have been great. It was so loud that we were improvising earplugs with tissue paper. He had Terrance Blanchard, Jack DeJonnette, Howard Johnson and more but the sound was horrible. When I think of live instruments I think of the rare high quality venue or of this:  |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 221 Registered: Jul-07 | Jan, Nuck- Thanks for that explanation. Brilliant. I could not explain, nor understand why my Naim CD player was so much "better" than all others I had used. Now it makes some sense. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8401 Registered: Dec-04 | The 'this and that' are the effects that the room has on the timing of the delivery. The room can ring, or roll off slowly and reverb, affecting the timing of the music. Only regarding timing, not the miriad other effects of the room on the music, just timing. Go ahead and bust my balls. That is the way I hear it. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 441 Registered: Dec-06 | And my original comment "My brain tells me this is not possible" got us driving down the exact road I was hoping to travel. Thanks to all. With a lot of hammering into my thick skull, I think Nuck has me understanding the attack end of things. The "nowness" of it all. The timing is where I get lost somewhat. Perhaps I don't fully understand what exactly happens in my cdp. I can understand Jan's explanation of timing in the orchestra playing together as one piece. Now I'm lost as to how my cdp can take recorded music where everyone was playing cohesively as one group on time and get them only listening to themself as they play. Marc, I am a huge Waters/Gilour/Floyd fan. Love all their stuff. And, yes, I did go to see Waters on the DSOTM tour back in July. With my Dad! Awesome!! Wodek's got me stuck on Amused To Death lately. Pros and Cons and KAOS lagging behind somewhat. The Dareds are a tight squeeze on my preamp as well. Rubbing together if not careful. But I'm hooked up now from cdp to pre to amp. I like what I hear. I also took the gold posts off my speaks per Nuck's instruction and used wire. One small improvement at a time. Wood blocks under the gear up next. And I think listening to Subdivisions is a great exaple of PRaT. Again, I do not understand it all completely, but this song really demonstrates attack and timing. This track, on my Rotel deck, really moves. I will also say, I probably don't listen to enough 'live music' as Jan defines it. Something else I intend to do something about. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5267 Registered: Feb-05 | "I once saw Art Blakey Jazz messengers in a club which should have been great. It was so loud that we were improvising earplugs with tissue paper." I can relate...last year at the Portland Jazz Festival all of the concerts sounded fantastic...except Dave Douglas who was LOUD!!!! Like you I had to improvise a device to help me not only survive the evening but to enjoy an immense talent. I hate music TOO LOUD!!! I know Nuck is struggling to understand our meaning as too loud doesn't exist for him...lol! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11159 Registered: May-04 | . Nuck - I shall let your balls stay intact, if you don't mind. They are fine just were they are, no need to offer any more. But I'm not hearing any changes in timing when I move pillows or this or that. I've not heard a room ring to the extent the timing of a system is affected unless we're playing music insiiiiiiiiiiiiiideaverrrrrrrrrrry,verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryliiiiiiiiverooooooooo ooooooom. Maybe I just need bigger or smaller pillows. Stryvn - I understand how components get timing correct. I just don't understand how so many of them get it so wrong. But be careful listening for PRaT. Every system should have some degree of the essential qualities of pace, rythym and timing and all music should have a forward momentum but too much attention paid to PRaT by itself can lead to other problems. One of the knocks against early Naim gear was its ability to portray all music as if Fats Domino were at the helm. I'm trying to think of Johnny Cash's version of "Hurt" through an early Naim system. Not good, not good at all. Spend sometime with live music, go somewhere to hear living, breathing musicians perform in the same room with you(that's my definition of live) and you'll often find PRaT is not as big of a deal as you might think when sitting in your listening room. Go listen to the real thing not with the intention that it should live up to your system - do not listen for imaging and soundstaging or any of the illusory qualities you hear projected onto a system - but rather listen to what real sounds like. No reliance on amplifiers and mostly acoustic instruments is best but difficult to find nowdays. Then compare your system to that reference. Your system should not be expected to do anything you haven't heard in the real thing. If you've constructed your system with magazine reviews and forum comments and some hazy idea of what sounds right to you, you will probably come away quite surprised at what the real thing sounds like. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9007 Registered: Dec-04 | The DAC is back from repair time. This Classe DAC-1 had been in my kit for nearly a year, but coughed up a furball a while back.. So I got it back today(withsome other goodies) and put it right back into the Big Dog for a run. The previous contenders were the Rotel1072 and the Rega Apollo, up against the Classe Trans/DAC-1 series. Frank was a little put out that the Classe was outdone(to me) by the Apollo. This is nolonger the case. The Classe DAC is back, new gelcaps and rectifiers, and ready for another showdown. Let John Mellencamp play. I went head to head on full RnR mode across the board. The Apollo is the best player under 2k, I figgur. The Classe kit is now the baddestassed player in town. This combo(with Classe pre/amp) is a whole lot of lovin' right there. The player is snap/smash rock, never heard better. Whacking you in the head, smash smash. Pounding, driving Rock, the Rotel and the Rega are gone for now. This trans/DAC will floor you, make you wonder, then re-affirm your thoughs///Did I just hear that?!? |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 639 Registered: Jun-07 | Nuck, sorry for posting this question here. How much does the Apollo retail for in Canada? My dealer says he will give it to me for 1100 taxes in CDN. Good to hear the DAC is sounding better than ever.Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9019 Registered: Dec-04 | Thats a good deal, Nick. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 642 Registered: Jun-07 | Thanks Nuck. I searched, and it seems that it is virtually impossible to find Rega prices in Canadian. Im bringing home the Rega and the CD192 Arcam tonight for the week. My dealer is also lending me a Bryston power amp for the week just for the testing. Thanks for the advice Nuck. |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 283 Registered: Jul-07 | Nuck: "The Apollo is the best player under 2k, I figgur." The Sept 07 issue of the absolute sound mag is crazy wild for the Cammbridge Audio Azure 840C, calling it: "The best CD playback under $5k for $1500." 1- I don't know much about this magazine so I can't judge the value of such a review. 2- I am not buying any more Cambridge products because of their lack of response on my faulty Azure 640 C. So I too will go for the Apollo. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2208 Registered: May-05 | I know Cambridge has been getting all of this glowing praise and attention lately, but I just don't get it. Its never been my cup of tea, and they haven't exactly been a benchmark in build quality and reliability either. Also, if they're so great, why is there a revision every year or two? I know that's going to offend some people. I couldn't hold back anymore. |
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Bronze Member Username: MagfanPost Number: 40 Registered: Oct-07 | This is sort of OT, but related. Part of this discussion of performance by artists also devolves into discussion of playback equipment where timing/pace of a player is called into question. Jitter is also brought into things. These guys are Quartz Xtal pros......I worked for them back in the late 70's. The president was a lunatic German with a bad temper and the brain guy was a Chinese near-genius with a penchant for driving ugly white cars. Take from these white papers some of the science behind jitter and its measure. http://www.statek.com/products/pdf/TN-35%20Rev%20B.pdf http://www.statek.com/products/pdf/TN-36%20Rev%20A.pdf |
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Bronze Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 54 Registered: Jul-07 | "The Apollo is the best player under 2k, I figgur." Not in my view Nuck, but I appreciate that this is certainly a view shared by others here. It really depends on what floats your boat. I never found it had enough meat on the bone for me, although it was a decided step up from the NAD I was using not long ago. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2467 Registered: Sep-04 | Nuck, I don't know where you get the idea that I was put out that the Classe combo wasn't as good as the Rega. Anyway, if they haven't quite yet been consigned to the bin, could you do me (or yourself rather) a favour and try the Apollo as transport with the DAC-1 as DAC? I would not be surprised if this was an interesting combination... As for "Upcoming Attractions", I'm off to see Richard Thompson live tonight. A ticket has fallen into my lap. Should be a good gig. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9024 Registered: Dec-04 | Frank, I think you expressed surprise at my side by side earlier. The DAC-1 was suffering bad cap(s) then, it is a whole different result now, by far! And yes, I will try the Apollo/Classe, grand idea! I will post findings this weekend. Enjoy the show, mate! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2475 Registered: Sep-04 | Bl00dy brilliant gig. Richard Thompson shouold be too old to be able to do that stuff, but he can do that stuff! And the band he was with absolutely rocked. Helped to be in the 2nd row of course... Hey Nuck - where's that review? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9106 Registered: Dec-04 | Frank, the Apollo has an rca digital out and the Classe has a BNC in. I don't have a cable for that one, 75ohm? I do however have a scotch. Cheers Mate! |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 286 Registered: Jul-07 | Frank- Live music is best, but it is really great to see the legends live. I have seen some old timers in the last few years. Pinetop Perkins, Gatemouth Brown, Dr John (better than ever), Hank Jones, Bobby Hutcherson, James Moody, Allen Toussaint, and others. It makes you feel lucky like it may be a last time opportunity. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2490 Registered: Sep-04 | Mmmmm - know what you mean. I just never seem to find out about the gigs until it's too late! |
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