This afternoon had this little shootout. Mike Wodek and nuck side by side.
Gear: 2 players, 2 pairs of single ended Audioquest Silver Serpent cables feeding a CJC6 tube pre. Bel Canto Mono's and Johnson Audio speaks.
The room was warm upon arrival, the M5 was playing, the Saturn seemed in standby, or inactive, at least. The listener had the dealer install the CJ pre in place of a Nad unit(good call), and add the 2nd set of IC's, for direct comparison.
The guy was all too happy to comply, pulling stuff from another room and into ours. THIS is why we work with great dealers, right kids?
I cannot name the musical selections, and for the head to head, it matters little. The opening passage was very revealing, indeed. The Saturn played well, and everything seemed good in the world. Until the same 90 second passage on the Nad M5. The Nad was full. The M5 was a complete octave lower, very complete in the lowest registers, and exposed what was not heard with the Rega.
This didn't seem like a fair fight at all. One musical passage, and the Rega is done?
Ahh, but here lies the rub. Saturn was waiting in the weeds. Whether in standby or powered off, the Rega was needing a little rousing to get up to speed.
Passage after passage, Piano sequence after another, good recordings and the listener's bad piano recording included, the Rega came around.
After one hour the Saturn was finaly alive.
Now it is a fair fight.
The M5 is a wonderful player. It digs very deep, displays excellent musicality, and is very capable. The remote is rather standard feeling. The player reads for about 5 seconds, before surrendering the encoded magic for your listening pleasure. The Nad feels like a Volvo S8. Very secure, very capable, and reassuring, like the machine has a good grip on things, you needen't worry.
The Saturn is not. Once warmed up, the Rega Saturn is my kind of machine. It is at once very capable, but quite happy to let the mid-highs do their own thing, but always with panache. While the Nad is deeper(a bit), the Saturn could, and will, dig the the finest of nuance, the sweetest carry, of 'On an Island'. The Rega is able to deliver the attack of a subtle rider strike, and curtail the effect like no other player in the building. So sharp, so accurate...simply stunning.
Granted, I like that presentation, luckily, we were 2 listeners at the same time, same listening position.Same conclusion.
Bottom line, one went out the door.
The M5 is going to find itself in a lot of homes.And listening rooms. And it should. The Nad unit adds not so much warmth as it denies the absolute striking...verve...spontinaity...I cannot name it.
Spot on description, The saturn digs out the detail, but it really lets the music flow, the feel of the instruments, and the timeing and phrasing are all there to hear. No additives that I can tell, no added warmth, no shrill bright top end, just as it should be. The apollo is a good player in its maket sector, the Saturn builds on that in every way, and for me is the stand out CD player in its price sector (£1-£2,000 in the UK)
Thanks for sharing your experience. Can you comment on the break in time of the players? One thing this past year has taught me, is that break in is a real phenomenon. My Squeezebox 3, was purchased new in December 2006. It is only now that I am hearing the best out of the device. Thanks!
Dave, the break-in time is a bit of a scratching post from user to user. While some people expect an electronic device to be 100% functional out of the box(as it should be), the nature of componants are subject to adjustment in infancy. Typically, the factor is heat. Each bit is designed to do 'x' or'y', specified at a certain temperature. I feel that the amount of time spent at the operating temperature is important, but the cycling of 'hot' and 'cold' can be a benefit as well, expanding and contracting mechanical connections, ramping up and down of power supplies and really testing the repeatability of componants. The break in for the Rega is usually stated at 100 hrs or so. A few folks say the more the better, it just keeps getting better. Whether this is a fact, or just musical exuberence is debatable, but the effect on toes a' tapping is not. The Nad M5 was not fully opened up, IMHO, but the Nad sound was there right away. Mike Holm felt that the M5 was at it's peak, and I have to agree, the bass was full and low, all the signature Nad sound was there at the front.
Hey Nuck, Thanks for the healthy response. I also agree that thermal cycling a component aids its break-in. The M3, I know, still has a way to go, as it's been about 1 week (the sound has changed for certain, more in the other thread at a later date). I can't wait to get the M5 home, hopefully sometime late next week.
Hopefully the M5/M3 combo will yield the right blend of resolution and musicality (among the largest number of my cd's), a tightrope walk I have found this past year especially...
Oh yeah and there is that synergy thing ;)
The Saturn received a nice review and it seems it elevates the already positive qualities of the Apollo to an even higher level. I was very close to pulling the trigger on the Apollo, but as you know snapped up the M5. It looks killer with the M3.
Dave, if the Nad sound is what you love(and you do) then I would recommend the M5 in a heartbeat, above the Saturn.Yep. Those parts together will make any music lover drop a jaw.
Mike W. is adding a piece to his Frankensystem, so the synergy is long gone, but his stuff is put together in a different way than yours or mine, Or Art's. The synergy is hard to beat with your Nad, Art's Rega, or my Classe. My assessment of the two players will stand. Again, reviewing the system used for the demo, Mike asked for a tube pre, and the CJ is as close to his Rogue Magnum 99 as fell to hand. The speakers were Joseph Audio, which I had never heard before, but mattered little for the AB. In fact, the JA presented much like Totem Arro's.
20 miles to O'Hare. Take the bus, leave the flying to us.
Very Cool Nuck. O'Hare Huh? Well i'll be heading to Chicago this weekend for the 1st time. I have a few days to kill sat,sun. Can you recommend a decent hi-fi store? The wife won't mind a diversion (in my mind anyway).
Audio Concepts is a high brow store with Classe, Rotel, Psb, B&W. I didn't get there this trip, game called on account of beer.
Holm Audio is a great bunch of guys, the store is a bit small, and they have a lot of AAD speakers, but others as well. That's all I know of there, the other guys know better. After shopping on Saturday(closed Sunday, as usual), take the lovely lady down to the House of Blues for a Bourbon Sunrise and some of the best music you can get(North of Beale Street in Memphis).
ADD speakers eh? Now that is a brand I can relate to. Perfect for the compulsory audiophile. Or is that Dislexic? AH it's all related...
Holm Audio is this the same as the one advertising on audiogon?
add moment 1: I was thinking if the M5 is too laid back connected to the M3 via my Acoustic Zen ref mat ii's, I just might try the AZ Silver versions for some more zip on top...just a thought...
add moment 2: One thing I have not done is mess with the stock jumpers on the M3. Recognizing however it's another chance to color the sound mu-Ha-hA, I might try some home brew stuff (not the liquid kind)...
I'm looking forward to capture a glimpse of a real music scene in big way this weekend. TGIF!!!
Dave, when working the finer details like jumpers, I suggest a Glenfiddich or GlenMoranguie. Smooths out the edges a bit. And maybe some Supertramp, Eagles or Glen Miller.
Once the Saturn warmed up and started hitting it out of the park, we wondered, "warmed up player or different discs play better in one machine over the other?"
While the latter may be true, we did do go back to the first 2 or 3 selections which we started with where the M5 dominated to find that it was a warm up issue for the Saturn.
Saturn, more detail, better attack and decay as Nuck stated during the comparison, more extension and isolation. Oh yeah, the bass was fluid and gripping.
M5, better handling of poorly recorded material, and deeper bass registers though not altogether dynamic.
????
I did not get a musial sense from to deepest base of the M5 as much as I got a sand bag dropped from on high to a steel plate. Possible bass boost? Not sure, but the Saturn not reaching as low did seem more musical in the lower registers.
Physically or asthetically I preferred the intuitiveness of the M5, one button pressed to play track 8 versus 2 buttons pressed on the Saturn to play track 8. The M5 looked better overall (matter of taste of course).
There is a heat sink across the bottom of the Saturn (unusual to me as I have not had or seen a CD player with this before). Otherwise the "Marsh" may not know that I spent a bunch more money on my system as the Saturn looks like the Apollo in every other respect. "Cept the name tag of course.
The M5 is an excellent player for the money and I am certain that it will be a preferred player to those with different tastes. If I had only heard an Apollo and a M5 I would have bougth the M5. But for an extra $600 USD, I thought the Saturn presented more to me. It is a simple decison of taste and value.
Both machines, all 3 counting the Apollo, have value. It comes down to taste moreso than budget.
The Saturn here downunder is another 2 grand over the Apollo, The M5, last time I looked, was another $2490. There is no comparison. If what I read about the Saturn is correct I'd have one tomorrow and the same goes for the M5. But for $1500Aud, the Apollo can't be beat here. We have between two and three hundred hours worth spun on our machine and I/we think it just gets more stunning with every hour. Stunning is not an over statement for describing the Apollo. While others may scoff, the synergy with our Nad pre/power, 602's and Merlin Verdi/Chopin i/c's is really something to behold. For the first time - for a long time - I no longer suffer from upgraditis. We have the best of both worlds. The 3910 (well okay maybe not the best) for mc hi-res and the amazing Rega for redbook.
Budget is a very subjective word in the real world. Practicallity is another. I could not, in all fairness to my better half, spend another 2 grand or more for a small degree of SQ over what the Apollo offers. I'm not in any way knocking those who would - in fact I'm probably envious of their financial position to do so.
MR, I got it hand delivered at a great price, from a real friend. I would not have walked out and bought it for 1200CDN plus 14% taxes. Next weekend I'l ABC it with the other players.
I gotta' tell ya' MR, I now have both the Apollo and the Saturn. And while the Saturn is definitely the higher-quality player; I refuse to part with my Apollo.
In fact, I'm getting a second Apollo for another system in my house.
The Apollo has that certain something.....a certain musical, tuneful, warm and organic sound character, which really brings out the emotion and passion in the music.
My Saturn has only logged a few hours, so I haven't completely burned it in, yet.
Making some changes in the house, so I can't really get it going, yet. Soon, though. Soon.
your M5 vs. Saturn shoot-out makes for good reading.
To date, I have listened a couple of times to a well run in Saturn at my local Rega dealer, very impressive.
I have not had the pleasure of having the Saturn at home, to make any comparisons against my modded Sony unit (which still puts a smile on my face...) The LC-Audio Zapfilter is a really nice output stage, which shames any op-amps I have heard.
Bragging aside , I am glad to hear that these Rega machines are giving so much musical enjoyment to so many.
Well the Chicago trip was a blast. House of Blues one of the highlights. 6.50 for a pint of Guinness though...dang I thought DC was expensive...and what's with that 8-10% sales tax? BTW I was happy to get back to metro DC driving...I don't even know how to begin to describe the driving out there!!!
M5 I suppossed to be here late this week. Can't wait.
Nmytree, it's a compliment to the Apollo that you'd get a second one - especially when you also have a Saturn. And I agree with your description of how the Apollo portrays music. Looking forward to your assessment of the Saturn when it's run in. Or maybe not :-)
My Saturn is burning in and I am soon to post a page of notes on it. But Tree is right about the musicality and warmth of the Apollo. It was a one or the other for me as I had no place for the second one (WAF). I find that I get more from the Saturn in that I am a wannabe technical listener but I just get caught up in good music and enjoy it to the nth degree. I suppose I have become somewhat the audio snob in that I only want to hear music from my system (talk radio only in the car / truck). Live music for me is happen chance. It's just that I enjoy hearing a selection that in a way that I had not heard it before, or hearing something on a recording that I had not heard the first 999 times I listened to it. When I die, I too want to go to Rock n' Roll Heaven, but since there are no guarantees, I might as well bring it on now.
The Rega Saturn CD player and the Linn Sondek Turntable both do it for me.
Currently installing a 90" antenna in the attic to see if my Carver tuner can ante up too.
gotta agree in terms of an off the shelf cd player, for "sensible" money, the Apollo/Saturn are the best I have heard at their respective price points.
Glad to hear that you are enjoying the LP12 , my LP12 is not doing much. I have been slowly collecting parts for it (Hercules, RB100, and Ortofon Kontrapunkt B). I just need to order an acrylic base-board for it, and then I will get the parts fitted to it. For the time being I will be using the phono stage in my TriVista amp, until I have the cash for something better...
Now that is a brand I can relate to. Perfect for the compulsory audiophile. Or is that Dislexic? AH it's all related... 
!
, I am glad to hear that these Rega machines are giving so much musical enjoyment to so many.