Pioneer Elite or Denon?
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New member Username: DatuntePost Number: 8 Registered: Apr-07 | I have a pioneer elite fdh1 1080p monitor. I know for sure that the Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXSi can handle the 1080p. Which model of Denon, at a comparable price can handle 1080p? |
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Bronze Member Username: ShawnharmanPost Number: 72 Registered: Dec-05 | stick with the PE. IMO its much better quality than the denon. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1196 Registered: Nov-04 | you would have to go for atleast the 2307 for a denon that does HDMI stuff. i too would go for PE mainly because i have a vsx81 and i love it. i tried a denon and not the same quality of build or features. the auto setup of the PE far surpasses that of the denon. |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Just a matte... Missouri Post Number: 2405 Registered: Dec-06 | I'd go for the PE too. If they still have it when I can get it (might be a while) or something better I'll probably go for the vsx81 (or the equivalent). I'm not sure yet though...haven't even heard it, although I heard vsx84 and my feedback on it is...natural sounding on movies (no music was there to hear and out of radio reception area). |
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Bronze Member Username: ShawnharmanPost Number: 73 Registered: Dec-05 | hey aundre, ive heard the 81 and it sounds really good, I heard it both on movies and music and It rocked, if you get it, I dont think you'll regret it. very nice sounding unit. and for Aaron you should go listen to them both side by side and decide on what you like, alot of people like denon, they are a brand that I would consider, but compared with the elite My vote goes for the pioneer. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1190 Registered: Oct-04 | You don't have to limit your search to the top of the line models. These receivers boasting 1080p are usually upsampling all inputs to the 1080p HDMI output, which is a minor feature especially with TVs with native resolutions. All you need is HDMI video pass-through. IMO the less processing the unit is doing with video the less problems you will potentially run into with video drop-outs and "shimmer" artifacts, etc. Currently each TV/Receiver connection seems to interact differently, I'd goto www.avsforum.com and read about what receivers work best with your tv to expediate your search. Unfortunately you have to sift through a lot of garbage to get the good stuff on the site. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=765065&highlight=pioneer+fdh1 |
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New member Username: DatuntePost Number: 10 Registered: Apr-07 | Thanks for all the great advice! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2116 Registered: Sep-04 | Actually Kano, that's not exactly good advice. Some receivers just switch between HDMI without doing any decoding and/or upsampling video, Arcam being just one, but in that situation they usually passthrough the audio too and don't decode. This means they can't take advantage of TrueHD and multichannel PCM audio from HD-DVD or BluRay. So beware, young Aaron, and know what you're buying...  I'm sorry if I seem to come across as a dampener to your enthusiasm, but I'm just trying to make you aware of what is actualy out there and what it may mean to you. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1191 Registered: Oct-04 | How does having HDMI video pass through have anything to do with how the receiver handles HDMI audio? While your argument is valid, how is my post not good advice? Do any receivers other than the $$$ Arcam act as a $100 HDMI switch? Seems kind of pointless to even have the HDMI ports on the receiver in the first place. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7129 Registered: Dec-04 | Audio and video...never the twain shall meet. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1192 Registered: Oct-04 | I'm bored at work and just finished reading through the Arcam AVR350 owners manual. While the receiver does no decoding or transferring of HDMI audio to the digital out and is not capable of decoding bittstream... It AND every other HDMI receiver CAN input LPCM directly from the source. You CAN hook HD-DVD and Blu-Ray through the HDMI connection and get lossless audio the same way you can through a 6 ch analog connection. Using equipment you may be familiar with, the Denon 2910/3910 can output decoded Dolby Digital and DTS tracks either through the analog or HDMI output resulting in the same signal path with the source doing the processing and the receiver amplifying the LPCM input. This is the same with the new formats. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7148 Registered: Dec-04 | Nice job there Kano. Not a gov't position by any chance? JK man. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2123 Registered: Sep-04 | No Kano it can't! You CAN hook HD-DVD and BluRay through the HDMI connection, but the Arcam receiver and most others under the sun do NOT have the ability to decode the lossless LPCM stream. You CAN take the decoded analogue outputs and, through the multi-channel input, get lossless quality. The Denon 2910/3910 can output DD and DTS in digital form through HDMI, S/PDIF or Toslink. They can only output the decoded, analogue version from the analogue outputs. This is the same with the new formats of course, but one of the major benefits of those formats is the lossless LPCM stream which - as I mentioned earlier - you can only take advantage of in analogue form. From the manual: It is important to realise that analogue video sources cannot be routed by the AVR350 to the HDMI output, nor can either of the HDMI inputs be converted to analogue video (of any sort). The AVR350 acts simply as a switching device, selecting one of the inputs and routing it to the output. The same wording is used in the AVR280 manual. It's important to make these distinctions because those who are less well informed may be led into thinking that they will get more functionality, and that's why I objected to your advice originally! Regards, frank. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4690 Registered: Feb-05 | Nuck, we in government hear the Government jokes all too often, take a seat at my desk and see if you aren't pulling your hair out by noon. Too much work far too few employees and absolutely thankless. Most of us would give anything for OT but instead we are forced to try and get done 80 hrs of work in 40 hrs per wk. I know you didn't mean anything by it but I hear it too often (occasionally even say it). Carry on.... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4691 Registered: Feb-05 | Oh did I mention the pay SUCKS!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1194 Registered: Oct-04 | "Since both players have internal decoders all the supported formats listed above can be decoded and output as 5.1 channel digital LPCM over the HDMI connection. They also have 5.1 channel 24/192 DACs (Digital to Analog Converters), so the LPCM can be converted to 5.1 channel analog audio and passed over the 6 RCA jacks. 5.1 channel analog inputs have become fairly common in receivers to support DVD-Audio and SACD players, but HDMI is only on newer units. HDMI 1.0 and lower supports only 2 channel PCM. HDMI 1.1 supports up to 8 channels of PCM" http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=640949&highlight=sound From the Denon manual - MULTI (Normal) - The DTS or Dolby Digital signals can be decoded by the connected TV or AV amplifier MULTI (LPCM) - Multi-channel audio signals are output from the HDMI terminal. Under Dolby Digital and DTS HDMI output methods both Multi (Normal) and Multi (PCM) are supported. For DVD-Audio only Multi PCM is supported, and for SACD there is no output for HDMI - maybe that's what you're thinking of. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2126 Registered: Sep-04 | Kano, Try reading the paragraph before the one you quoted: The formats marked as (new) were not available on standard DVDs. All HD DVDs are required to have at least a DD+ soundtrack. TrueHD and DTS-HD are optional. They all support higher bitrates and audio quality, but the maximum bitrates are too high for the coaxial or Toslink optical S/PDIF connection that you use with your current DVD player. They also cannot be decoded by current processors or receivers so even if S/PDIF could pass these bitstreams it wouldn't do any good. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1195 Registered: Oct-04 | Absolutely Frank, the HDMI connection can send either bittstream to be decoded by the receiver or PCM which has been decoded by the source. The receivers with onboard decoding are just starting to come out, yet people have been getting lossless audio through HDMI from day one of the new formats. See above where the Denon can send 8 channels of PCM - this is the only way to get the lossless formats either with an analog or HDMI connection. The only way this doesn't work is if the format does not allow it - Sony SACD can only be sent through analogs because they really focus on copyright protection. Read through some more of those AVSforums, everybody with HDMI receivers is claiming to be getting lossless audio through the connection. The PS3 is capable of sending this through the connection and is the best Blu-Ray purchase because of it - it does not have 6 ch analog outs. The Xbox 360 has just released a new SKU with HDMI output. It will not support PCM output through the HDMI connection, which is really angering people. The thread is 49 pages long and I don't feel like finding the e-mail reference from the Microsoft rep that said it's not happening, but what's important to this discussion is it is possible. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2132 Registered: Sep-04 | I will have to check this out Kano. My apologies if I'm wrong... |
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Silver Member Username: Shane24Post Number: 162 Registered: Mar-07 | Frank, apart from the hdmi and alike topic, I want to know is their a big difference in sound between SACD or DVD-audio compared to cd, honestly I haven't heard or listen to an sacd or dvdaudio for that matter, coz I was thinkin of buying one of those players, is it really worth it... |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2133 Registered: Sep-04 | Different people will tell you different things. There is no doubt that from what I've heard there is a lot of potential with SACD and DVD-A. The amount of resolution is sheer magic. I used to say that I hadn't heard an SACD or DVD-A machine actually make music, even though there was all this extra resolution. Fact is, I've become uninterested in the whole issue since neither format seems to have gained significant traction in the marketplace and both seem doomed to limp along until they die. I think this is really sad since they were the only step taken in the hope of improving sound quality instead of the dumbing down we've seen courtesy of the iPod/MP3 explosion. If there had been just one format, I believe it could have taken over from CD. I would have backed DVD-A since that format is designed to take advantage of the more common DVD drives, but either format could have worked and the labels wouldn't be tripping over themselves trying to charge people for downloads. The world would have moved on from CD and we could really have started to reap the benefits in the next couple of years, as the specialists really got to grips with the technology and the chipsets got cleverer and cheaper. As it is, in my view, neither SACD nor DVD-A will ever amount to much. They're dead, but just don't know it yet. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 527 Registered: Feb-05 | The quality of DVD-A and SACD is largely dependent on the quality of the recording, specifically the 2ch. to surround mix transfer.What the sound engineer does with the original two channel recording determines the final product. This is very crucial. Some recordings are suprisingly good and some are terrible,where the instruments and voices are placed the same and coming from all speakers,instead of a resembelance of a "soundstage" or at least somewhat of one. Having recently purchased Diana Krall's "the Girl in the Other Room"-SACD, I found it quite enjoyable even on my low fi HK equipment. This album is a good example of a decent remix. I very much agree though, these are probably doomed formats, religated to mostly to the audiophile community, which has not exactly embraced the two formats with open arms.Could HD DVD and Blu-Ray follow a similar fate?!! Only time will tell,most consumers are happy with 720p DVD,this is certain. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1198 Registered: Nov-04 | shane, consider this. the people looking for the extra quality that SACD and DVD-A bring to music attract the same crowd that looks into LPs and typically have above average equipment. for most of those people, any digital format is a shill compared to the LP anyway, in their opinion so they don't go for it. had sony done something to either blow away DVD-A or simply disappear like betamax then as said above we would see things change. but you also have to consider that people no longer sit down and listen to music as they used to. most music is heard either in the car or on headphones using an ipod or mp3 player. stereo systems are turning to HT systems and not many people care to pay an extra $100 on a player that plays a handful of albums in comparison to the CD. that said, both formats technically should sound better than an CD since they have higher sample rates, greater storage capacity, freq. range, yadayada. I would look on ebay for a used unit and see what you think. i personally like them. oh, and yea eric, blueray is destined to die since sony is backing it if not both. i see high-end AV formats to fare better than high-end audio ones. |
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Silver Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 528 Registered: Feb-05 | Your exactly right Chris,AV formats will most likely have a greater shelf life than audio. To be honest I really liked the DTS audio mixes the best. It's really a matter of preference. As a child during the 70's I grew up listening to LP,and still can appreciate it's warmth, a friend has a sizable collection of LP. Today I lean towards the optical disk as the ultimate source of good quality,low noise entertainment. I'm going to finnally convert to HDTV by the end of this year and buy an HDTV. The problem today is that Hollywood studios and record companies impede the progress of equipment manufacturers who now have the ability to see what the director saw or the recording engineer experienced as he gazed upon the maestro and they are scared. Meanwhile folks continue to download off Limewire which is very much like DVD-A and SACD recordings, ranging from crappy to very good quality. BTW I don't own an Ipod or MP3,have a factory crappy car stereo with 4 paper speakers and CD that gets the job done the 10min I listen to music in my car each day, and I don't listen to my system but a few hrs. week. I buy CD's cheap through a music club and rarely download from the net. |
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