Do I have much to gain from changing recievers?
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Bronze Member Username: BranniganPost Number: 14 Registered: Feb-07 | Hi. I finally got my Athena ASF2.2's replaced after an almost unbearably long damage claim with dhl and now have them playing at long last. I like them but wonder if they might sound better with an HK3480-Z. The cymbals in many songs are almost painfully sharp sometimes but maybe I just need to adjust something, I'm not sure. The receiver I have now is a JBL DCR600-Z(5x 100w or 2x 75w). I cant find a link for it unfortunately but I remember the HK having better specs. Am I missing out on much or should I just keep what I have? Also curious if the player makes a difference in sound, or are the receiver and speakers all that matter? Thanks for any advice. |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Just a matte... Missouri Post Number: 2381 Registered: Dec-06 | Well you know what they say... "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link." |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 202 Registered: Jan-07 | Spanky, the self-appointed king of this forum, Jan Vigne, and his subjects maintain that specs are not important. They are wrong. They give you important entry information regarding the equipment. But you should always audition when possible. |
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Silver Member Username: Shane24Post Number: 131 Registered: Mar-07 | Jim, vigne and his subjects maintain that specs are very much paramount.. |
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Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 13891 Registered: Dec-03 | "Also curious if the player makes a difference in sound, or are the receiver and speakers all that matter?" They all do. Try it and hear for yourself. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10315 Registered: May-04 | . I believe I have stated several times on this forum that the only "specs" that are important when you begin assessing which component to choose are height, width, depth and weight. You need to know whether your new component will fit on the shelf you've planned and whether you will require a truck to bring home some new speakers (or even an amplifier if you've got enough cash). Other than that, the commonly found specifications given by most manufacturers on a web page are not going to tell you how a component, be it amplifier, CD player or speaker, will actually sound. So, please, ignore JBJ, you can see what type of in depth advice he has to offer. Helpful, wasn't he? I would not go by "specs" to judge whether one component is better than another. How specs are gathered seldom represents the real world conditions which components face and are somewhat akin to the old school of measuring horsepower and torque with the motor out of the car and disconnected from any exhaust system or accessory items. Yes, the system under test might manage something similar to what these liberally quoted measurements indicate, but more often than not, they are not very good guidelines for what performance you can reasonably expect from the equipment when it is assembled as a whole system. Read this thread; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/349962.html and the linked article to gain some insight into what "specs" leave out of the equation and why "specs" are never going to tell you the entire story of how a system of components will work together. There is no doubt that the more information you can gather on what component might best pair with another piece of equipment, the better off you will be. However, most of the imformation you find cannot be interpreted in isolation from the other components you might choose to own or the room they will go in or the intent you have for the system. However, no matter what specs you gather, they can still only provide a rough guide to how the system might come together. Only after years and years of correlating measurements with perceived sound quality, have experts in the field begun to put together a suggestion that if X is A then Y is B. If you don't have these years of experience and the knowledge they bring, you will likely have a difficult time judging sound quality from a manufacturer's spec sheet or a set of test measurements provided by a magazine or web site. The obvious solution to this is to rely on the experts you have available to you, which, in this case, are not forum members spouting off that they like component ABC or that specs matter. You can gain some insight into how systems work by paging through the archives of this forum, if you care to do some work. But you should not let yourself be told X is better than Z in all applications. In any instance, thinking thorugh the problem and its possible solutions in a logical manner will benefit you when first considering a new component. Tell me why you think the sound quality is not top notch now that you've spent some money improving your system. Which spec in particular did you think might indicate the HK would resolve this problem? . |
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Bronze Member Username: BranniganPost Number: 15 Registered: Feb-07 | Thanks for the responses. I suppose what I was hoping for was a suggestion from someone that happens to own the same Athena speakers that I do. From what I've gathered from my short experience on these forums they seem to be somewhat popular so I'm guessing someone here has gone through some trial and error that might benefit me. I've seen the words "bright" and "warm" among others used to describe receivers and have gotten the impression that a "warm" reciever will add balance to "bright" sounding speakers if that is indeed what I have. The HK seems to be a popular choice and I vaguely recall it being described as "warm", but admittedly this is all still greek to me at the moment. It was just my first and most obvious guess since I decided that surround sound isn't a priority. As far as players go, I always thought they just delivered a "pure" signal that was only affected once it got to the receiver. I noticed some settings on my panasonic DVDS52-S like "night sound" and "H-Bass" that make a huge difference so I was obviously wrong(lol). I'm really just asking if there are any glaring flaws in my setup and if there are a player and receiver commonly known to mesh well with the Athena ASF2.2's. I'm a noobie. Thanks you for your attention. |
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Bronze Member Username: BranniganPost Number: 22 Registered: Feb-07 | Oh, I forgot to answer Jan's question. There was no particular spec that I assumed would make any specific type of difference. I couldn't know that because I don't really know what the specs mean. I remember a lower "THD"(?) and a 20hz-20khz output or something like that. My receiver says 100hz-20khz and somewhat higher "THD". I don't pretend to really understand these specs to be honest, I just remember the HK being recommended in various threads and wondered if I was missing out on something. Anyhow, after messing around with some settings on my dvd player that I didn't know existed, it's sounding much better. Maybe it's also due to breaking the speakers in like the manual suggests. It may also be that particular song was particularly crisp or a combination of factors. Either way, the speakers sound good now and I'm pretty happy with them. I've just never heard perfect sound so I don't know what to listen for or whether or not it could be better. In short, I think I'm just nitpicking. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1187 Registered: Oct-04 | THD - Total Harmonic Distortion. This refers to how much of the sound reproduction is distortion - basically. So if the receiver is outputing a 20-Hz - 20Khz tone (which sounds like static), this stat refers to how much of the playback is distorted at the given output level. By having a higher percentage of distortion the manufacturer can quote a higher wattage level at which this occurred. As well, by eliminating the bass frequencies between 20 - 100Hz which are normally used, AND which suck up the most juice, the manufacturer can inflate the number of watts further. The average consumer looks at the number of watts and uses this to guide their purchase. Really these numbers mean nothing as a receiver with 10 watts per channel can be enough to drive many speakers at normal listening levels. Speakers with high sensitivity also don't need much power, such as Klipsch with 98-104 dB @ 1M. Compared to a speaker with a low sensitivity such as Totems with 85 dB @ 1M, the Klipsch require a small fraction of the power to achieve the same decibel (loudness) level. Athena speakers are quite sensitive and don't require a lot of power. An HK with 55W per channel will drive them well. The JBL you're currently using probably outputs 30W per channel if tested the same way as the HK. How loud can it drive the speakers.... Exactly. Basically you're wasting your time looking at stats, either it's a good unit or not. Either it has the features you want or not. Trust Jan's advice and buy a receiver that weighs the most within your budget and you'll be good to go. |
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Bronze Member Username: BranniganPost Number: 26 Registered: Feb-07 | I'm not positive, but I'll probably stick with what I have. It sounds good and gets as loud as I want it to. It's just curiosity making me want something more but I guess I don't really need it. What you said about my receiver being 30 watts in "HK watts" leads to another question. What "brand" of watts are the makers of various speakers using to measure the power handling of their speakers? HK watts or watered down "BRAND-X" watts? I'm guessing they're all different and equally meaningless. |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1188 Registered: Oct-04 | HK is one of the few who accurately measure. Others make sure the 100 watts a channel spec appears on their product although the unit will never produce anything close to it. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10324 Registered: May-04 | . "What "brand" of watts are the makers of various speakers using to measure the power handling of their speakers? HK watts or watered down "BRAND-X" watts? I'm guessing they're all different and equally meaningless." Nope, other than specs being largely unimportant, you've missed the point. There are no "watts" involved when the manufacturer suggests a minimum or maximum power handling spec. Since the amount of "watts" the speaker could safely handle will vary with frequency, duration and level there is no way for the manufacturer to say, "We put this many watts into the speaker and the unit blew up", or, "We put one less than that many watts into the speaker and it didn't blow up." Generically, the manufacturer of the individual drivers (woofer, midrange, tweeter, etc.) provide a power handling spec roughly determined by the size and construction of the driver's voice coil and surround and the sensitivity of the driver. It is all mathematics at that point. No one sits around destroying seakers to see just when they break. So, Andre, put your resume back in the drawer, there's no such job for you to apply to. Most speaker manufacturers are like any other producer of goods, they have multiples of what it takes to make their product work to use as test gear and they have multiples of the competition's products to use as a comparison. As long as you are happy with the sound you have right now, there is no reason to change anything. If you should, however, begin to think about a new receiver, you would be wise to look for a product that does list its power bandwidth (not its frequency response) to as wide a range as possible, with a minimum of 20-20kHz. Some companies believe a wider power bandwidth is beneficial to the sound of the amplifier and HK typically quotes 4-100kHz, or roughly five times the range at both extremes of what is considered normal frequency response for the human ear. Not all companies agree with this concept of amplifier design as it places more demands on the overall quality of the component which leads to higher manufacturing cost. Certainly, this requires a more durable power supply which means a heavier amplifier in most cases and therefore the generic recommendation to buy the heaviest amplifier you can manage with equivalent (or in some cases, non-equivalent) power ratings. In other words, if you are choosing between two amplifiers (which both might be rated at roughly the same wattage), buy the amplifier that weighs more. This is a very general statement that can have exceptions but will normally prove to be the best advice you can get until you listen to the components in question. As a general rule, this rule applies to most audio components you might consider. Sources do matter and not for the features they offer. "I've just never heard perfect sound so I don't know what to listen for or whether or not it could be better." As with many people who are considering what to own in audio components, I would suggest you go listen to live music. This should be your reference for "perfect sound" and you should find a wealth of information available to you even when playing with the seventh graders. Right, Andre? I would, suggest you minimze how much "feel" you get from the music and maximize how the music makes you feel. Do not make other audio systems your comparison for what you own. . |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 249 Registered: Jul-05 | There are also many factors to consider in your system as well. Cables, voltage regulation, interconnects, types of posts on speakers and receiver. And then the most important and overlooked is room acoustics and treaments. Try moving the speakers farther apart, adding a carpet, using some heavy shades. See my point? If the system you have now sounds good with the components then you can always try the add ons of the system and room to squeeze out extra imaging and performance. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1803 Registered: May-05 | As absurd as this may sound... Any chance the JBL receiver is actually designed/made by Harmon Kardon? The Harmon Group owns JBL and a host of other audio companies. I think they're all speaker companies, except Levinson and Lexicon. I highly doubt they'd put a JBL tag on a Levinson or Lexicon piece. I don't know the specifics of Harmon runs nor how independent its companies truly are. It seems to me like JBL wouldn't do their own R&D for a receiver without a strong influence from the Harmon Kardon division. It may sound stupid, but moving to a Harmon Kardon receiver may not really be a move at all. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10330 Registered: May-04 | . With a 100-20kHz frequency response spec and a "somewhat" higher THD spec, I'm guessing this is a home theater in a box or a compact system. |
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Bronze Member Username: BranniganPost Number: 27 Registered: Feb-07 | Well Stu Pitt, I bought the receiver from Harman Audio. All they have is HK, JBL, and Infinity. Whether they're all made the same way I don't know. I'd like to believe what you're suggesting, but it may be wishful thinking to believe I could get a receiver with 5x 100w "HK watts" for $181 when an actual HK receiver capable of 5 x 30w , the AVR-144-Z is about $100 more for apparently 70w less per channel. Then again, who knows. Maybe my receiver is just an unpopular model because it's supposed to be sold as whole system and there aren't any reviews of the receiver by itself. I hope so. Eric, good ideas. I think my room is pretty much ok for sound but I'll look into it. Jan,once again you come through with more help than I probably deserve. I feel like I'm starting to get a better idea of the way this stuff works. At this point I think I'll hang onto the receiver as it definitely gets loud enough. A friend of the family says he's willing to part with a cd player that's well above average in his eyes and I'm guessing this will make the biggest difference, assuming dvd players really sound as terrible as some seem to think on these forums. At the moment my dvd unit is an all purpose player. |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 205 Registered: Jan-07 | WHATCHUTALKINBOUT SHANE? The King has refuted your assertion. Told you. |
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Silver Member Username: RsxmanPost Number: 252 Registered: Jul-05 | Spanky I would suggest you look into getting a dedicated cd player, entry level like NAD or something that has the proper sound for the athenas. There really is no substitute for a dedicated CD player, especially with SACD and HDCD. I use to sell API products and I owned the towers you have now. The are sensitive enough to be run by any receiver but in almost all mass market receivers there is so much decoding, filtering and processing to just get sound that much of the power is lost in the travel to the speakers. Granted you dont have reference level speakers so it wouldnt make sense to go with High End seperates like Sunfire, McIntosh, NAD or Rotel but a good seperate amp like parasound or NAD entry level can make a world of difference in the sound quality and actually show you what a proper 60-100 watts delivered can really do for you. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10336 Registered: May-04 | . JBJ, weren't you asked once whether you're reading the same stuff everyone else is seeing? You got no clue, do you? What contribution have you made to this subject? I noticed a glaring absence from the technical stuff. All hat, no cattle. FOJBJ. . . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7087 Registered: Dec-04 | Even offering and being wrong, then corrected, is a worthwhile execise for the members and visitors, for gawd's sakes. But offer SOMETHING! Troll. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10340 Registered: May-04 | . What Nuck said! |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 211 Registered: Jan-07 | Jan and Nuck, sing the new alphabet song and go on your merry way. Just in case you have forgotten the lyrics: ABCDEFG,HIJKSOB |
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Gold Member Username: KanoBC Canada Post Number: 1189 Registered: Oct-04 | Your Sesame Street mentality has no place in an adult forum. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10348 Registered: May-04 | . What Kano said!!! Nayadayada!!! |
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Silver Member Username: Alright_boyPost Number: 216 Registered: Jan-07 | Kano, you have got to either be kidding or delusional. You seriously call this an adult forum? Well, I guess it all depends on your definition of adult. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10352 Registered: May-04 | . That was information? Come on, JBJ, give us some of that famous wiley wit and wisdom. All hat, no cattle. FOJBJ. |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Just a matte... Missouri Post Number: 2404 Registered: Dec-06 | I see your point there (I think) Jan. I learned a lot being there about what "live" sounds like (among other things). I think it'll help me with my decision on what to buy. As for Brannigan..I don't know what he'll decide. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 170 Registered: Dec-06 | Sheesh JimBob Idiotpants, 216 posts and you STILL haven't said anything of substance. You're either a politician or a 14 year old school girl. My guess is a schoolgirl given your sensitivity to the typed word. boohoo Butch up Sallie. |
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Silver Member Username: JawPost Number: 101 Registered: Mar-06 | Spanky, okeedokee |
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Bronze Member Username: BranniganPost Number: 28 Registered: Feb-07 | As for Brannigan..I don't know what he'll decide. I'll probably borrow a nice cd player from someone to see what it's like. If it's good I'll buy one most likely. |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Just a matte... Missouri Post Number: 2407 Registered: Dec-06 | Hey that's a good idea. Thanks for the idea.  |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 2024 Registered: Feb-04 | Spanky I would suggest you look into getting a dedicated cd player, entry level like NAD or something that has the proper sound for the athenas. There really is no substitute for a dedicated CD player, especially with SACD and HDCD. I use to sell API products and I owned the towers you have now. The are sensitive enough to be run by any receiver but in almost all mass market receivers there is so much decoding, filtering and processing to just get sound that much of the power is lost in the travel to the speakers. Granted you dont have reference level speakers so it wouldnt make sense to go with High End seperates like Sunfire, McIntosh, NAD or Rotel but a good seperate amp like parasound or NAD entry level can make a world of difference in the sound quality and actually show you what a proper 60-100 watts delivered can really do for you. I disgree with just about everything, but this thread is likely dead so it doesn't matter anymore. |
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Bronze Member Username: BranniganPost Number: 29 Registered: Feb-07 | It's not quite a dead thread. I just can't seem to catch the guy with the cd player at home so I haven't been able to test it out yet. I have a 3 paycheck month coming up not too far in the future and I may buy something nice for my speakers if I don't get a new video card instead. I'm undecided as of yet but if I can get a good cd player at the friend of the family price I may spend what's left to get a good receiver. Somebody said to get an entry level NAD and I saw one on audio advisor for $600 which is just barely within budget. I think it was 50w per channel but I'm guessing that number is deceiving considering the price. Again, I'm just going to try and borrow this cd player from my friend to see if it makes a difference before I do any spending but all advice is very welcome. |
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Bronze Member Username: BranniganPost Number: 30 Registered: Feb-07 | This is the one I was thinking about. NAD C 720BEE http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=NAC720BEE |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7224 Registered: Dec-04 | Spanky, save your dough. Sit tight and save a little more. You will get some guidance when you can make it a comfortable move. Granted you dont have reference level speakers so it wouldnt make sense to go with High End seperates like Sunfire, McIntosh, NAD or Rotel but a good seperate amp like parasound or NAD entry level can make a world of difference in the sound quality and actually show you what a proper 60-100 watts delivered can really do for you. Not sure where PG puts Rotel with sunfire, but the point is there. |
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