What amps, and why?
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Bronze Member Username: ShikeNewton, Iowa USA Post Number: 15 Registered: Apr-07 | Alright, a while ago in a thread I had a conversation about amps started up and my curiosity is getting the better of me. So I come seeking knowledge once more. First off, in terms of sound quality which is usually more important, the amp or the pre-amp? Next, why does one select certain amps over others? What is responsible for the difference in sound? For example, what would be the biggest difference between something like Audiosource and some of the ones like NAD, Rotel, etc? Also, with these differences in sound how is it that they are being produced accurately? Is it simply a difference of attack and decay, or is there actual difference in terms of frequency response? What brands would be best for accurate production on a small budget (not integrated)? I've heard H/K as a suggestion, but I just want to look a bit more. For example, how does Audiosource perform? I heard it "lacks excitement", but I am overall at a loss as to what is actually meant by that. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6817 Registered: Dec-04 | Drew, manufacturers generally keep the sound of an amp in-line with a company house sound. A Mac will sound like a Mac, full and warm. A Rotel will sound like, well, a Rotel. Sharp, accurate and punchy. A Nad will give full sound, good bass and recessed upper registers. Classe amps are rather like a Rotel on steroids, with muscle development everywhere. These are generalizations, and MHO. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1749 Registered: May-05 | A lot of things make one amp better than another. Better parts used, higher tolerances, better regulation of incoming and out going power, and so on. These can and most often lead to better sound quality. Then there's build quality. I wouldn't buy an amp just because it sounds great. It also has to be built well. What's the point in having a great sounding amp if it needs repair/replacement too often? Then there's manufacturer's support. A good amp should be worthy of regular maintenence, and not disposable. The manufacturer should support the product enough to have parts available for a very long time. They should also be able to bring the amp back up to or exceed original specs for a very long time. McIntosh, Bryston, and Naim are a few companies who are very well known for being able to do this. While this isn't cheap, its far more cost effective to have your McIntosh amp serviced every 15 years than it is to replace it at the same time intervals. Some of the differences in sound quality can be due to attack and decay times, favoring certain frequencies over others, the amp's ability to handle complex loads such as impedence swings and phase shifts induced from the speakers, distortion in its very many forms induced by amplification, and so on. In some cases, speakers can influence the sound quality of an amp very much. If the speakers are demanding too much from the amp, the amp will perform poorly. If the speakers are a good match to the amp, they will both perform very well together. Pre-amplification has a lot to do with it. Some people put far to much thought into the amp and make the pre-amp an after thought. The pre-amp does far more than source switching and volume control. In a couple auditions I've heard far more improvements changing pre-amps than in changing amps. This isn't across the board, but from my experience I wouldn't put any less thought in the pre-amp than the amp. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6834 Registered: Dec-04 | Stu, if you include Classe with Bryston, Naim and Mac, that seems a likely crowd. The whole thing has to work together, Drew, and componants from a single manufacturer is a highly recommended way to start. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10251 Registered: May-04 | . " .. . in terms of sound quality which is usually more important, the amp or the pre-amp?" It would depend upon which is the weaker in its individual application. There are reasons given for every component being at the top of the system hierarchy but they only really matter within the context of a single system - yours. A system is called a system due to the interplay of several components and, if one component is weak, then the final outcome will suffer. As a general rule consider each successive component in the signal flow to be less important than the preceding component. Of course that disposition to source first/everything second is not good advice if you unwisely choose an amplifier not well suited to driving the speakers desired. The argument would be that building from the front of the system would typically preclude such irrational choices in amplifiers and speakers. Unfortunately, reality trumps many a theory. Be prepared to meet the one overriding concept of any subjective decision making; if I give you one thing, I am very likely to take away two things to get you there. In other words, there is always a compromise which must be accepted. Knowing what you are willing to compormise in order to get to what is most important is the best route to follow when any monetary restrictions apply. References, references, and more references. " ... why does one select certain amps over others? What is responsible for the difference in sound? " There are many resons for choosing a component, not the least of which should be how it conforms to your expectations (read "references") within the context of your system. You are asking a question regarding system matching and it is dificult to give strict answers that satisfy all concerend. This is a question normally best left to a very good dealer, as the bulk of their job is to find out what the potential buyer might want and/or need (called qualifying the client), which is done by asking intelligent questions before specifc equipment is propsed. The lesser part of the dealer's job is the actual demonstration of equipment which might suit those needs and/or desires (called going into the stockroom to find what fits). Even as a newbie your task is to provide the dealer with as much information regarding your perceived needs and desires as possible. Dealers are quite familair with the client who hasn't a clue, but they prefer someone with some sort of reference for what they, the client, might prefer. I usually suggested to many potential clients that they go hear some live music before making a decision in order to get an idea what they were aiming for. A scattershot "I'll know it when I hear it" leaves the dealer with nowhere to begin and nowhere to proceed since you might change your mind about what sounds "good" within a demonstration. Knowing where you would like to arrive makes the journey of getting there far simpler (which is known as customer satisfaction) with fewer wrong turns (which is called less expensive). Any truly good dealer knows how to deal with any budget constraint, or lack there of, and give appropriate advice as the client requires a deeper understanding of where they are heading. Components are usualy deemed "better" by way of designs chosen, parts implemented, adherence to a reference for a desired sound quality and longevity of satisfaction by all involved. A large part of what makes a component "better" is the talent and effort that stands behind it. Talent is not an easily defined term by way of comparison, though most people can recognize the truly pedestrian against the truly spectacular (Randy Warren excepted here). This is made easier by recognizing a reference point from which to begin any discussion of sound quality and then determining how closely any one component adheres to that reference. It is not accomplished by strictly following the lead of reviewers who might have a reference out of synch with your own or might not have a reference at all. Not the answer you wanted but the best I think I have for the space and time alotted. To make things a bit easier, any circuit which produces gain or moves a signal from one input to another output is, in its most basic form, a modulated power supply. As such the quality of the power supply should be given sway over many other "features, advantages and benefits", if you want the best sound for the least amount of money. As a very general rule, if two amplifiers are apparently identical in most of their "specs", listen first to the heavier of the two and then listen for what is added and what is taken away when the lighter unit is inserted. Be prepared to find exceptions to every rule, though I warn you that if something appears to be too good to be true, it typical is. Otherwise, your question ask us to boil down several decades of experience into a neatly packaged blurb that paints with a broad brush all we know and suspect about audio. I doubt you will find a complete answer to your question until you begin to listen to music as compared to audio components. I suggest you spend some time listening to live music before you go listening to audio. Even if the answers to what makes a component better are not clear at this time, as you listen to more of both you will come to realize what is important to you. . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 1753 Registered: May-05 | Nuck, Are your feelings hurt because I didn't include Classe? Does it make you feel inferior?  For the record - Classe is also very good gear and IMO worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as McIntosh, Bryston, and Naim. There are some others which I didn't mention either, all due to a lack of space and energy - Conrad Johnson, McCormack, Pass Labs, Jeff Rowland, Halcro, Mark Levinson, and so on. Did I mention CLASSE? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6837 Registered: Dec-04 | thank you |
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Bronze Member Username: ShikeNewton, Iowa USA Post Number: 16 Registered: Apr-07 | Okay then, I have another question: If I were to upgrade something on my system for about $250, which would you think needs upgrading? Technics SU-G90 Pioneer 816-K (using it as a pre-amp) The speakers I'm currently using are Focal Chorus S 705s. The sound I like is something with short decay, high extension, and in short "impact". If this is unachievable at my current budget, what type of budget should I save up for? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6859 Registered: Dec-04 | for $250? Your room. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShikeNewton, Iowa USA Post Number: 17 Registered: Apr-07 | "for $250? Your room" I asked specific components, and if you read the last chunk I asked if it wasn't enough how much budget I would have to save up. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6871 Registered: Dec-04 | Well, Drew, what you ask for and what advise you get for free often differ. Would you like to advance your listening or not? This advise has carried well before, and will again. |
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Bronze Member Username: ShikeNewton, Iowa USA Post Number: 18 Registered: Apr-07 | "Well, Drew, what you ask for and what advise you get for free often differ. Would you like to advance your listening or not? This advise has carried well before, and will again." First, you haven't even MADE a proper suggestion. Upgrading . . . "your room" doesn't tell me exactly what to do. Do you mean in terms of accoustics? If that's the case it's probably lost on me for numerous reasons. One, since I use digital for all my music a pure digital EQ would further be stuited for actually ironing out accoustic issues (and would be cheaper). The second reason is, since I'm going to be moving into a dorm soon, it's pointless to bother with accoustic treatment (unless it's extremely easy to implement). Besides, if I don't even mention the dimensions of my room, nor the accoustic anomalties how can you consider it a real suggestion? For all you know, my room may be surprisingly good when it comes to accoustics (although I know that to not be the case for the most part >_>). |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6886 Registered: Dec-04 | Drew, we have been around the block a bit here, and trust me, $250 would be best spent on a few panels, for any room. And thanks for your admission ending your last post, everything is easier that way. Cheers! |
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Bronze Member Username: ShikeNewton, Iowa USA Post Number: 19 Registered: Apr-07 | "Drew, we have been around the block a bit here, and trust me, $250 would be best spent on a few panels, for any room. And thanks for your admission ending your last post, everything is easier that way" Okay, then a couple of final questions . . . 1) Would a digital EQ suffice like I thought? One with digital in and out, no DAC? 2) What panels would you suggest, why? What do I look for in them, etc. 3) How are they to install and move? Would it be hard to install them in a dorm or should I plan on losing my investement? You're the one that suggested it so . . . ^_^' Sorry for being such a PITA. EDIT: Also, will accoustic treatment really help me in getting the sound I'm seaking? I'm just curious is all . . . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6887 Registered: Dec-04 | Drew go to DIYaudio.com and look at some of the treatments there. A lot of stuff can be done on the cheap. Aren't you using the EQ in the soundcard software? I use it sometimes and click the 'what you hear' option. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6888 Registered: Dec-04 | https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/accessories/1664.html |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2069 Registered: Sep-04 | In my opinion, the best thing to do is to leave the $250 in your bank account and keep saving until you have enough to buy something really rather nice. In the meantime, do some investigation by reading reviews, observing threads on internet fora, and getting local dealership information. Ask your local dealers where they think things begin to get interesting. Don't mislead them into spending a huge amount of time with you: let them know you're investigating and are saving up for something good, but that you don't know what 'something good' actually means. A good dealer will offer to show you what you can get for various budgets and you can form an idea of the differences in your mind. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: LeonskiPost Number: 80 Registered: Jan-07 | Drew asked: First off, in terms of sound quality which is usually more important, the amp or the pre-amp? I go to balance and the idea that a chain (signal) is only as strong as the weakest link. If somewhere inline is a 'can and string', thats what you got! |
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