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New member Username: MeursaultPost Number: 1 Registered: May-04 | So I've enjoyed this forum for a while now, but I've never posted before. I'm in the planning stages of a new system and I'd like to see if you all could help. I have researched the usual suspects (Marantz, NAD, H/K, Elite, Yamaha), but I have yet to find a receiver that might fit what I want. This is what I'm looking for, in order of importance: 1) $700 or less (this is a must)-the cheaper the better 2) Ability to drive Magnepan MMGs well (also a must), no need for ear-splitting volume though 3) General "Musicality"--sounds good with MMGs, used for about 80/20 music/HT 4) Component Video conversion--Basically, I want only one video connection to my TV (preferably component, of course), even if my VCR and cable box only have RCA or S-Video outs 5) 6.1 Surround--no need for 7.1 The main problem is that I am going to get Magnepan MMGs and most companies (save for NAD) are pretty obscure about how their receivers handle 4 ohm loads. NAD receivers are pretty skimpy on the features, it seems. Yamahas are liberal with the features, but the load of the MMGs might present a problem for them. If Outlaw would hurry up with their replacement for the 1050, I have a feeling that that would be what I'm looking for, but alas... Anyway, I'm not sure if there is a receiver in my price range that can fit all of these requirements ($700 is the absolute upper limit, $600 is really what I want) and if someone who knows about these things knows for sure that such a receiver doesn't exist, just let me know. Thanks a lot for your help. Eventually, when I get my system in order, I will actually be able to contribute to the board rather than just reaping the benefits. |
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Unregistered guest | Jeff.....the 4ohm load is not your biggest concern here. Maggies are electrostatic speakers, no? 4 ohms purely capacitive. Hard for many cheap amps to drive. Good ones like NAD, H/K etc will have no trouble. Avoid Yamaha. My advice, take it home, hook it up and listen. And forget about specs please. They come very close to being "Nice to know" information. |
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Unregistered guest | Jeff.......why so hip on buying the Maggies? Just wondering what made them your "have to have" speaker. They have a huge soundstage(voices and instruments sound as though they are 10 feet high and 15 feet wide), as all electrostats do, and limited bass. Are you sure this is what you want? |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Though they are often confused with electrostatics due to the similarity in appearance, Maggies are not electrostatics, they are planar magnetics. In theory just a large conventional driver that has been flattened out and put inside a very thin frame. They are not the easiest speakers to drive due to their inefficiencies but they do not present the reactive load of a typical electrostatic speaker. They are revealing of the source though. What system did you hear these speakers playing on? My bet would be it wasn't driven by a reciever in your price range. You might want to rethink your priorities. If these speakers are a must have or my left ... will shrivel up then give up the video input requirement and go to the use market. Get something classy and retro that your friends will think is cool. Maui - Go listen to some Quads for an accurate soundstage and some Martin-logans for bass. |
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New member Username: MeursaultPost Number: 2 Registered: May-04 | Thanks for the comments. Looks like I might still have some work to do to find me a receiver. Mauimusicman--Thanks for the advice. I was just a little worried about trying out receivers with the 4 Ohm load. I didn't want to have to return a burned-up receiver that I tried out. As far as the Maggies--I have only really listened to the 1.6s, at a friend's house. I agree about the giant instruments to some degree, but I think the "little" MMGs may not have that same effect. Basically, I really liked how the Maggies rendered voices and brass, specifically, Willie Nelson's voice and Miles' trumpet. Bass is not such a huge concern for me, though it is nice of course and I do listen to hip-hop and rock. I have an apartment, so I don't want to wake the neighbors at all hours anyway. Basically, for the price, I am trying to shoot for a setup that is very good in some areas, even though it may be below-average (relatively speaking) in other areas. J Vigne--I heard the 1.6s on Outlaw separates. Very nice. And thanks for your honesty about the price range. It's good to hear, even though it's not good to hear. I have been eyeing some of the H/K receivers on E-Bay now. The refurb (with warranty) AVR-7200 dips down to *almost* reasonable for me, now and again. I would think that this would surely do the trick. |
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New member Username: MeursaultPost Number: 3 Registered: May-04 | Incidentally, I switched my post name to Meursault. I noticed a few Jeff's on the board and didn't want to add to the confusion. |
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Unregistered guest | J. Vigne, I sold hi end audio for a decade, i'm pretty familiar with most everything out there. Of course, there are hundreds of smaller companies, some making very good products I have not heard. Have heard many Magnaplaners....one of our salesmen had a thing for them. Nice, but the soundstage was un-natural to my ears. Best planer speakers I heard were the Accoustat's. Still haven't heard a speaker that can compete with Green Mountain's offerings. As a musician, these babies speak my language...the emotion of music. Mahalo (thanks) for your comments. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 560 Registered: Dec-03 | Jeff Meursault: Your observations of the various audio receiver brands is pretty accurate. For $700 or less, you are pretty much limited to an NAD as only NAD in that price range will drive a 4 ohm load. My local Maggie dealer won't even show Maggies with any receiver other than NAD or McIntosh (only $4K!), even though he is a big Yammie dealer. When I asked him about a Yamaha to drive my MMGs, he simply said that the Yamaha "just can't cut it." I can understand wanting MMGs--there simply isn't a better speaker for the money anywhere. Since saving a little cash is important, I do have a suggestion--I would recommend a factory refurbished NAD T752, which is an 80 wpc x 5 receiver (Sound & Vision tested it and concluded it did 92 wpc x 5 before clipping). The MMGs not only need a receiver comfortable with a 4 ohm load, they need a lot of power, too. Most receivers under $1K do not put out anything near their rated power because they are only rated two channels at a time, unlike NAD which rates their receivers with all channels active, so you are truly getting the power promised. I think you will find the 752 will have enough power to make your MMGs really sing. DMC Electronics is selling the 752 refurbs for $489, and they advertise they all have the latest firmware (www.dmc-electronics.com), so I think it would be a great choice for those wonderful speakers. Although you may feel you are limited on features by getting an NAD, I used to have a big Denon receiver and I found I never used most of the so-called features--they are mostly gimmicks. My NAD has everything I need and the sound is unmatched. Good luck! |
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New member Username: MeursaultPost Number: 4 Registered: May-04 | Thanks a lot, Hawk. The 752 for $200 less than my limit might make me forget I ever wanted those features. I still have a little while before I can actually start ordering my system so I am hoping that Outlaw will come out with a new receiver in the near future. I heard that the 1050 could drive the MMGs pretty well and if Outlaw can keep their current pace, I think that their next receiver should be pretty nice. We'll see. |
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Unregistered guest | Guys, How about him running his receiver as a pre through a Hafler or some other decently priced amp? Then he wouldn't have to worry about receiver power output, could get a lower priced receiver to compensate the exta amp, and won't have to worry about load. Just a thought. |
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New member Username: MeursaultPost Number: 5 Registered: May-04 | I had a look at the Hafler amps, but I think that I am looking for something a little more...tidy. Thanks for the heads up, though. Does anyone have an opinion on H/K and 4 Ohm loads or the Maggies in particular? I have the opportunity to get an AVR-630 for a little more than $600. This has all the features I want, and I like the H/K sound (and the look), from what I've heard, though I haven't heard it with Maggies. It is rated at 75W per in 7 channel and 90W in stereo with an 8ohm load. I figure that might translate to 110W/130W at least with 4Ohm. I e-mailed H/K, trying to find out, but they have yet to get back to me. I just don't want to be running in to the protection circuit all the time. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 581 Registered: Dec-03 | Jeff: We had this very discussion about 6 moths ago (I don't remember the thread) but it was learned the H/K does not do 4 ohm loads. Seems somebody named Paul wrote Polk about their 4 ohm LSi series and H/K was excluded as not being capable. Also, when I ordered my MMGs, the salesperson actually insisted I look on the back of the receiver to see if it supported 4 ohm speakers before she would even take my order. If you check out the H/K website, you can look on the back panel of the 630 and you will see it only supports 8 ohm speakers. |
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New member Username: MeursaultPost Number: 6 Registered: May-04 | I always knew that the back of the H/Ks only said "8 Ohm," but I thought this just might be to cover their butts. I heard back from H/K today, in response to my e-mailed question about 4 Ohm speakers, and the response was something like "All H/Ks can handle a constant 4 Ohm load, but some 4 Ohm speakers run a lot of the time at considerably less than 4 Ohms. If you hook up the receiver and it shuts off, it can't handle the speakers. Even if it can take the load and play your music, extended play on low-impendence speakers will shorten the life of the receiver, and it won't be covered under warranty in this case." Basically, sure the H/Ks will do it, but we can't tell you how well or for how long. That's a bummer, though, because the 630 refurbs on E-Bay are dipping into the $500 range. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 588 Registered: Dec-03 | The Maggies are not a constant 4 ohm load--indeed, their impedence will drop to 3.2 ohms at some frequencies. I would stick with the NAD. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | The problem here is a disconnect between the speaker manufacturers and the amplifier guys. To make the amplifier stable into a low impedance load requires dollars invested and therefore spent by the purchaser. It is easier and cheaper to design and far easier to market an amp that doesn't have to be stable at four Ohms and put a label on it that covers their rear (no pun intended). As HK stated their amps will usually drive four Ohms and sometimes even dip into two Ohms without going into protection. (See my remarks under "amplifiers" and "Harman Kardon".) But many manufacturers, you know the ones that market the 500 watt (combined, on a sunny day) recievers, find it easier to market a very poor product. On the other hand, the speaker manufacturer (who really just buys all the parts and screws them together, or pays somebody to even do that) knows speakers that play louder in the showroom sell faster. Four Ohm load means more power from the amp and more volume in the showroom. But all speakers vary their impedance load over their frequency range, some by as much as fifty Ohms minimum to maximum, and that leads to disaster in the home. My suggestion, not to argue the point with anyone, is ask the dealer of the Maggies if they have any experience with HK and what do they suggest (Outlaw?) as the best choice. Otherwise, buy the HK with a return policy and take it to the Maggie dealer and ask them to hook up the two so you can decide for yorself. Many times an amplifier can deal with the short term variations in impedance if you simply place a small whisper fan on top of its heat sinks. This heat is mostly what HK is referring to in their missive about shortening the life if the reciever. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 591 Registered: Dec-03 | J Vigne: You make some very good points and I agree with about the fact that most manufacturers are refusing to invest in quality parts to make their amps stable at 4 ohm loads. However, a few points need to be made. First, I called magnepan a year ago with the very question you suggest and they will not get into recommending specific brands or models. Furthermore, Magnepan recognizes that although many amps are now specifying a certain power at 4 ohms, 3 ohms and even 2 ohms, that is almost always for ONE CHANNEL ONLY! Due to their design, they can do one channel, but usually not two and certainly not three or more. It is very misleading to the consumer (Denon, Onkyo, to name a couple) as it leads the consumer to believe their amp is capable of driving low impedence speakers. But the fact remains that they can't. That is why the Magnepan salesperson will ask you to go to the back of your receiver to tell them whether it will drive a 4 ohm load--it is not only to cover the rear of the receiver maker, but ensures Magnepan that they aren't selling their products to someone who will abuse the speakers and then return them damaged at the end of the home trial period. So Magnepan is not going to sell the speakers without assurance that the receiver is capable of driving them without damaging them. You have suggested an Outlaw amp, and they are certainly good amps, but I do not believe the 7100 is a good choice for the MMGs. Although it has applications, the 7100 is too cold and too sterile sounding for the MMGs--the sound would be rather metallic sounding which is not very pleasant. The 755 and 770, on the other hand, are very fine amps that would make wonderful music with the MMGs. But, we lose sight of the fact that Mssr. Meursault is on a limited budget and has specified a budget about half the cost of a 755 (which would require a pre-pro on top of the cost of the amp). Thus, it appears to be way out of the budget. However, there is no quesiton that there are in number of good choices for amps when cost is not a serious concern. Outlaw would be only the first of many which I would recommend. The fact remains that most receiver manufacturers build their products expecting the use of relatively low quality speakers which are built with a more standard 8 ohm impedence. Low impedence speakers have traditionally been much higher priced speakers meant to be sold with high quality electronics. What Magnepan has done is break the traditional paradigm by offering speakers with very high end sound for a price that would challenge Best Buy. The difficulty lies in the fact that the MMGs are a low impedence design, thus requiring a higher level of electronics than their price would normally require. Trying to force their use with an unsuitable design merely exposes the speakers themselves to being damaged by the improper amp. We can debate for weeks whether this amp will work or that amp will work. The fact is each manufacturer will tell you what impedence they are comfortable having their amp drive, and I think it is the height of arrogance to ignore their recommendations. Dismissing the receiver manufacturer's recommended impedence as "just covering their rear ends" is only asking for real heartache sometime later. As an attorney, I have seen many people who have ignored the manfacturer's recommendations or warnings, and then they are surprised when something goes wrong and serious consequences have resulted. Truly incredible. |
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Unregistered guest | This is a good part of why vintage receivers (of the 70's or so) and amps intrigue me. That over-built, pre-cost cutting, transformers the size of a soup cans, can drive anything without sweating design. Not to mention a certain soul and warmth inherent in equipment of that era. Granted I'm curious about soundstage, clarity, and other dymanics of that vintage. But I've never heard anyone comment,"My Pioneer SX-1280 just wouldn't drive them..." It's more like,"My 40 watt Marantz 2240 that I inherited from my dad (ouch!) send my buddy's 120wpc Sony crawling home with its tail between its legs..." |