CD Player to match rest of system
|
New member Username: DwaynebToronto, ON Canada Post Number: 2 Registered: Feb-07 | I recently upgraded my amplifier and speakers, to a NAD C372 and Totem Hawks. I kept my older cd player, a NAD C521 BEE. While I very much enjoy the stunning improvement over my previous system, based on what I've read in this and related threads, I'm wondering whether I should upgrade the CD player as well. While most CD's sound great on the 521BEE, there are some that have either grainy vocals, harsh treble, or are "bright." Perhaps it's the cd's fault -- not the player. I don't know. Several excellent options have been discussed in this forum. My main question concerns whether there are any issues of "matching" that I should consider: should having a NAD amplifier and totem speakers have any bearing on my choice of CD player. I doubt it will be possible to audition each of the various combinations that I am considering: - NAD C542 (at $700, I'm hesitant to spend that much money on a $250 upgrade over the 521, especially as I suspect it is about to be updated); - Rega Apollo ($1200, seems to be a popular recommendation here); - NAIM CD5i (around $2k, I'm not sure how it would match with the NAD). - ARCAM (CD83, around $1200; CD192, around $2300). - NAD M5 (around $2k, also plays SACD). Are any of these players obviously good or bad matches for the NAD/Hawks? Are there others I should consider? - Thanks. |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1323 Registered: Nov-05 | Dwayne, no one can tell you what your ears will deem the best match for your system. I understand you cannot audition each of these units. Based on my ears, the Apollo was well worth upgrading from the C542 and combines well with our NAD components and B&W speakers. I also believe the 542 was worth the money over the 521, but that's me. |
|
New member Username: DwaynebToronto, ON Canada Post Number: 3 Registered: Feb-07 | Thanks, M.R. It's very helpful to know that the Apollo matches well with the NAD. Just to clarify, my comparison between the 542 and 521 is conditional on me already owning the 521: by all accounts the price difference between the machines is justified. I'm just not sure that the improvement over what I already have is worth the full price of the 542. |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1325 Registered: Nov-05 | Maybe not. In this game benefits can come in small increments, but often for large increments of cash. It's what each of us personally thinks is money well spent for musical appreciation. Unfortunately, most spouses tend to differ on this point. |
|
New member Username: DwaynebToronto, ON Canada Post Number: 4 Registered: Feb-07 | Bathroom renovation + associated line of credit is running interference for me (perhaps that should be counted as part of the price of the stereo). That said, I'll lose what remaining credibility I have if I buy a cd player that I will (too) soon want to upgrade. |
|
New member Username: DudywoxerScunthorpeUK Post Number: 8 Registered: Mar-06 | Then don't, if you have the budget go down to your Rega dealer and have a listen to the apollo, it lives with way more expensive machines. Then if you have 3x the cost of the apollo ask him to swap it over to a saturn. But only if you have the spare cash, cos the saturn does everything the apollo does, then much much more. I have had one for around 3 weeks now, and it is still getting better each time I play it. I tried it against various offerings from Ayre, Linn, Naim, Copland, Primare and Quad. I finished up with 3 choices, either of the rega's or the Quad depending on your budget they are all very, very good machines. A buddy who went to the dem's with me went the other way, he is changing his system and for around the same money got an apollo, brio3, and Rega R3's. And for the money that is one very good, very musically engaging system. As the guy in the shop said, hell we sell cables that cost more than that system. |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4511 Registered: Feb-05 | "apollo, brio3, and Rega R3's. And for the money that is one very good, very musically engaging system." Very well matched system! |
|
Bronze Member Username: StarbucksPost Number: 12 Registered: Feb-06 | Would you like to consider changing a better Interconnect that will helps to improve your sound quality? (i don't know what interconnect u are using now  ) |
|
New member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 4 Registered: Jun-07 | I did investigations 5 yrs. ago into wire quality. The research was done by an EMC (Electro-Magnetic Compatability) engineer with access to over $1,000,000 in HP equipment. He compared 5 different wire types. The differences between all were very small, and guess who came in 2nd. Home depot with their 14 AWG zip wire. I think this tells the whole story - wire brands area scam! |
|
Bronze Member Username: StarbucksPost Number: 16 Registered: Feb-06 | I have no ground to challenge those research or analysis as what I audit is by my own ears.hehe However, with the same system setup and different cables. immediately i can see the difference in the detail of the background music, clarity of the vocal,bass and also lively of the music. If have spent a sum in an expensive CDP and using a not so good cable. I think the CDP may not performance up to the optimum perfomance. Indirectly, not benefiting from the money spent earlier.... Anyway, just follow your ears. If a person can't see the difference using a home brand or branded cable...then my advise is not to spend that sum. :-) |
|
New member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 8 Registered: Jun-07 | Pls. recommend a cable. |
|
Bronze Member Username: StarbucksPost Number: 17 Registered: Feb-06 | You may just simply get a branded cable (Van DH, Audioquest, QED and etc) from your friends and compare with a home brand cable. Let's the music tell you. The point would like to stress here is..the cable price might not justify the sounds improvement. However, it does make a difference. |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 13 Registered: Jun-07 | Not to be impolite, but let someone answer these pointed questions: 1. an amp with distortion measured in a lab (the vendor's perhaps with questionable, massaged data). 2. same goes for the CD player with 16-bit resolution (20-bit and 24-bit gain you nothing because ultimately it has to be scaled to 16-bit format). Mathematical dithering is a farce. Take two players, one with dithering, and one without, and let the listeners judge. 3. speakers with a distorted frequency-distribution curve, whose owners don't even know how to position them in a room. How far do you place them from a wall (is 6' the answer?), or the corners? How far do you position the speakers apart?. Where is the optimal sitting/standing distance? How much of that music are you enjoying when the conversation is at 90 dB? Did you hear what the music said at those levels? 4. furniture, curtains, etc which interfere with the sound distribution pattern. 5. Connectors which are probably banana-plug, and don't make intimate contact with the speaker'serminalsl - speaker wire should always be screwed to the speaker's terminal. 6. And you're trying to tell me that wire is going to affect what I hear - maybe 30 AWG. |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 14 Registered: Jun-07 | Not to be impolite, but let someone answer these pointed questions: 1. an amp with distortion measured in a lab (the vendor's perhaps with questionable, massaged data). 2. same goes for the CD player with 16-bit resolution (20-bit and 24-bit gain you nothing because ultimately it has to be scaled to 16-bit format). Mathematical dithering is a farce. Take two players, one with dithering, and one without, and let the listeners judge. 3. speakers with a distorted frequency-distribution curve, whose owners don't even know how to position them in a room. How far do you place them from a wall (is 6' the answer?), or the corners? How far do you position the speakers apart?. Where is the optimal sitting/standing distance? How much of that music are you enjoying when the conversation is at 90 dB? Did you hear what the music said at those levels? 4. furniture, curtains, etc which interfere with the sound distribution pattern. 5. Connectors which are probably banana-plug, and don't make intimate contact with the speaker'serminalsl - speaker wire should always be screwed to the speaker's terminal. 6. And you're trying to tell me that wire is going to affect what I hear - maybe 30 AWG. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7592 Registered: Dec-04 | Eric, you want fries with that? Break it down, give us focus, give us links and examples of rooms. You will get answers, but not to the meaning of life, for heavens sakes! |
|
Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2201 Registered: Sep-04 | Dwayne, I'm not surprised you're getting the results you're getting. You have a classic mullet system. Great speakers on the end of a reasonable but limited amp fed a signal by an entry level CD player. Now I know that the source first principle doesn't fly quite as far with CD players as it did with record decks but the fact remains that if the signal is broken no amount of amplification is going to fix it, and your great speakers are simply going to reveal it. In my view the Apollo is the minimum you should be aiming at. It would be good for you to compare and contrast other CD players too of course, so you can choose the flavour you like. Hawks are excellent speakers but therefore they will reveal exactly what mistakes your electronics are up to. Eric, you wanted someone to answer pointed questions but you then came out with statements. The one rhetorical question you came out with was point 6. If you consider that you can hear the differences with things like minor changes in speaker positioning, furnishings, connections, then why shouldn't you hear the difference between similar gauge cables of different matallic make-up and possibly different configuration? Incidentally, you never use bare wire in a decent hifi system. Bare wire oxidizes more quickly than properly terminated wire, particularly with speaker wire since that tends to carry lots of current which accelerates the process. Metal purity and configuration also make very large differences to its electrical characteristics, RFI rejection and therefore its presentation. Regards, Frank. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7595 Registered: Dec-04 | Frank, I see no issue with fresh bare wire, as opposed to crimped wire. Kept clean(the inside crush does) I see no need for crimps.(they are crushed, too), and anana plugs. All of these work well, so long as we keep them tight.But of course, we need to keep them tight, agreed? |
|
New member Username: DwaynebToronto, ON Canada Post Number: 6 Registered: Feb-07 | Frank, I should have updated this discussion ages ago -- but thanks for the advice. I heard the description "Mullet System" and made sure it didn't apply to my system anymore. I auditioned the Apollo, but chose the NAD M5 in the end. I'm absolutely delighted with the system now. I would never have believed that the CD player could make such a difference. "Source First" still has a lot of merit. The amp will do fine for some time (it will have to). - Dwayne |
|
Silver Member Username: Sun_kingUK Post Number: 386 Registered: Mar-04 | NAD M5 - very nice. |
|
Bronze Member Username: StarbucksPost Number: 18 Registered: Feb-06 | Hifi is for us to listen using our own ears and not relying on the equipment statistic result. Listening to audio, we seek for our own requirement and satisfaction: whether the vocal is clear enough? whether the sound is warm enough or too warm ? whether music is detail? whether the soundstage is good? whether the music from the system is too fast or too slow? whether the treble, mid or bass mean you standard and etc. Can a Test Equipment tell u all this rather than using your own ears? Can a test equipment result comfort you without you listening to the sound? I believe a good hifi system rely so much on CDP, Amp, Interconnect and speaker cable which are the basic component. Then some people can comes in with a better power cable, power stabliser, jumper and etc. The point is whether the amount spend on the above are worth the improvement to the sound quality (example 10%-30% better than before or just 5%). Some may really marginal improvement only. But comes to the end, it also relying on HOW SENSITIVE are UR EARS and your spending power. N years ago, Minidisc is a fancy thing. A Sony report showed that the Minidisc that you record from a CD maintained the 100% quality or if there is difference also not within ur hearing ability. Then the report also attached many graph/statistic that illustrates the result from Tester Equipment. Last year I took my Minidisc Deck out and plug it to my hifi system via Audioquest Columbia. Gosh, the Minidisc quality is really out, not acceptable. But the statistic result saying the quality should be the same. Else is my Sony Minidisc Deck is not good enough, which I believe not. Eric, I don't know much about electronic terms and the technical part. I am just a pure listener to music and differentiate good and bad music using my ears, which is very subjective. But this is what everyone doing everday. Earlier I was using a so so interconnect. Then later I switch to Audioquest KingCobtra with the exactly same setup, position and everything. The first time, I turned on the music, I knew sounds has been upgraded. Then later I changed to Audioquest Columbia interconnect. Wow, the sounds get better but frankly speaking the improvement is not very significant. But a lover can still appreciate the improvement. Utimately, we listening to music, seeking a very wonderful voice that can melt our heart. Don't so particular about all those statistic and so on...get a chance to borrow a high grade quality interconnect and test it out with ur heart and ears. (at least u are financially safe if you can't hear the difference) One of my friend asked me why I need an expensive system and why not go for Altec Lansing. My friend said he heard no different. My advise to him is ..stay with ur Altec Lansing...dun go for Hifi...!!!! Cheers |
|
Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 437 Registered: May-06 | Eric, seems you're more interested in a confrontation than an information exchange. Just what is your point? #1. In your post is not a question. #2. In your post is not a question. #3. I am with Nuck on this one "Break it down, give us focus, give us links and examples of rooms. #4. By design, so is this Jeopardy where you give the answer and are we to respond in question format? #5. With some edit could be used in an adult movie. #6. Seems more like a prediction to me. I supppose Frank's answer was more useful, perhaps your re-re-re-posting versus editing got the best of me....since this is on at least one other thread. |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 18 Registered: Jun-07 | 1. Let's make things very clear from the onset; most of us are not electrical engineers or electrical designers, nor should we fool ourselves into thinking that we are. Of those invoved in this field, we for the most part fall into one of the following categories: a. the best of us are competent electrical engineers who are capable of performing a design, creating and reading schematics, and building, debugging, and supporting the equipment we designed. b. others are technologists or technicians who may be capable of doing similar as above, but are self-taught, or cannot perform to the same level of competentcy as above. c. others are capable of reading a schematic and constructing equipment, including changing electronic components, performing splices, adding shields, doing proper grounding, etc. d. while the majority of us are just simple "system integrators", capable of stringing a couple pieces of wire together, or those who go through the pretence of being a "system integrator", especially those, "talking the talk". So,the majority of us are invoved in connecting complex pieces of equipment together; we are not designing them. We are going through the pretence of system integrators, taking electronic equipment, attaching them together in an intelligent fashion, and then placing them in a setting where the best of their qualities will be realised. Your equipment comprises of: a. amps/preamps b. CD/DVD players c. speakers with cross-overs d. and probably more Now what kind of wire is in those gems: 16, .. ,28 AWG wire that you buy from Radio Shack. And you're using wire that costs $10/ft. to connect these pieces of electronics - something wrong with this logic? If you believe expensive wire is going to make an iota of difference in the complexity of the design cited above, well then it's your money. I've been working in electronics for 30 years, and in the world of audio (< 40 KHz), the main things that matter for simple interconnects are: a. teflon wire for a military environment b. multi-strand to increase current capacity while keeping wire AWG heat-resistant and more supple c. twisted shieded pair as required d. termination on the receiving end e. proper gauge wire "Oxygen is used in the formation and refinement of copper wire to remove impurities and improve conductivity. The vast majority of copper used in the production of speaker cables falls into three recognized copper grades: C11000 - (ETP) minimum 100% IACS, 0.02% to 0.04% oxygen (typical). C10200 - (OF) minimum 100% IACS, 0.001% oxygen. C10100 - (OFE) minimum 101% IACS, 0.0005% oxygen. ETP copper is used universally for electrical applications. OF and ETP must meet the same requirements for electrical conductivity. Because of excellent advances in copper wire manufacturing, ETP, OF and OFE copper conductivity will typically differ by less than 1%." |
|
Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1389 Registered: Nov-05 | Well Eric, these arguments have been going on in this forum and others for eons. You'll get those who'll agree with you and you'll get your detractors. And yes, you have made one thing clear from the onset i.e. you do have an opinion - and you are entitled to it. We all have opinions also, and they are mostly formed by using our ears. Nothing else really matters. If person A's ears dont hear what person B's ears hear - it's no big deal, we are different. But if person A has written data that tells person B he can't hear what the said data implies and person B insists he can, then he should be given the benefit of the doubt. Thousands of men, women and children have been killed or maimed based on facts or so called data collected by professionals in their field which was later proved wrong. Belief in one's self is what counts. |
|
Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 443 Registered: May-06 | I got to tell you Eric, I am not sure how one communicates with you. Let's take your last post in reverse. You present good meaningful information on wire. This is the 2nd post I have seen where you have. While in theory I think I agree with what you are trying to convey I do not understand 101% of anything. You also quote "ETP, OF and OFE copper conductivity will typically differ by less than 1%." By my math 0.02% is 4,000% higher or different than 0.0005%. Then again it could be a play on words where the intent is 0.000005 through 0.0002 are all less than one percent. For whatever reason further up in your post you become seemingly insulting with stating "pretense of system integrators" twice. It is no pretense for me. I sought out information on this forum, worked with a reputable dealer, and built a system using my ears. I do not even have to know how to connect an RCA to understand what I want from my system and to have different things put in it to where I find happiness in my final (well they are almost never final) "system design". Which leads me to my last part. Does a pilot have to be able to build his or her own plane to be an excellent pilot? Or how about a LASIK surgeon, do they have to be qualified in LASER technology to provide someone 20-20 vision? I do not have to know how to build an amp or speaker, solder a capacitor, install a cartridge, not even plug in an RCA, to be able to put together a system I get hours and hours of thorough enjoyment from. What is the relevance of the beginning of your post? |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7598 Registered: Dec-04 | Stunning. Absolutely stunning. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7599 Registered: Dec-04 | I checked again, and Eric is right. No difference between the Rotel 1072, Apollo, Classe trans/dac and the puter into the DAC. All 4 sources are exactly the same. Sufficient, Eric? Wanna try sommore? |
|
Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2205 Registered: Sep-04 | Eric System integrators are those people who take the theoretical and make it work. They're the ones with the real world experience and evidence of what really happens when various bits of kit are cobbled together with different bits of wire, and they often know better than the designers themselves how the kit reacts in these environments. The amount of wire, the coils in the speakers, the wound transformers, all of that has absolutely nothing to do with the wires used to connect equipment. Why is this? Simply becuase those wires have a purpose. Wound coils are used to act as inductorsto create magnetic fields (speakers) or to transfer electrical energy (transformers). After all, if you laid out that coil lengthwise but still had the ends connected, you wouldn't get the same effect would you? You'd just have a long length of wire getting warm. I wouldn't pretend to be an electrical designer or engineer. I do have a healthy disrespect for an awful lot of what goes on in the industry, but I also listen to the kit I put together and observe the changes that happen. I can't account for perceived differences due to cables or connections, but I won't discount it either. Empirical evidence has been the backbone of scientific endeavour for hundreds of years (think Isaac Newton and apples) but nowadays so many engineers depend on their measuring devices, they don't have the nonce to think objectively about the subject. Nuck, fresh bare wire has the potential to sound good. However the emphasis here is on the word 'fresh'. It doesn't take long for 'fresh' to become 'tarnished' or 'frayed'. Ordinary crimping guarantees a reasonably solid connection, usually with more of the actual wire in contact with the plug or spade than if screwed directly to the speaker terminals. If you crimp and solder the plug or spade, the solder flows into the air gaps, giving the wire less opportunity to degrade. Specialist crimping methods such as QED's Airloc apply huge pressure to squeeze the air out of the plug. In theory this is the best solution since solder is a poor conductor and the highest surface area of wire is in contact with the plug or spade. Both crimp and solder, and specialist crimping techniques should guarantee better longevity and better sonic results. Regards, Frank. |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 4942 Registered: Feb-05 | Excellent post Frank. |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 19 Registered: Jun-07 | Starbucks: If you can hear the difference to your satisfaction, then "mission accomplished". Nothing further need be said. |
|
Bronze Member Username: StarbucksPost Number: 20 Registered: Feb-06 | Eric: If you can't hear any difference is different interconnect, any white & red interconect that comes with a player will do. "Mission accomplished" as well and support to your "facts". |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 20 Registered: Jun-07 | 1. The lower the AWG number, the thicker the cable is, not the other way around. 2. Accordingly, any 12, 14, or 16 AWG sleeved cable will do the job nicely. 3. However, people are into "lower AWG wire" (thicker). Thicker cable, unless you have incredibly high power needs are an abuse of money, and add nothing to the performance of the system, regardless of what the salesman will tell you. 4. For the average home-user (I have a 100 watt integrated amp), 16 AWG does the job nicely, although I was abusive and bought some 14 AWG (it was at a price I couldn't refuse). 5. For my 25 watt integrated hybrid tube amp, I'm using 16 AWG. |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 21 Registered: Jun-07 | Nuck: 1. Generally, people want the answers to a question or two, but not an encyclopedia on audio; I don't have the time. 2. The general information I have provided took years to accumulate, and I don't have links to them. 3. Not to be impolite, but try doing some homework on your own. I've provided you with the areas to research, so start doing it. You'll learn more, and at the same time, get greater satisfaction in doing so. 4. I hope my reply was not rude, for that was not my intent! |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 31 Registered: Jun-07 | Starbucks: "You may just simply get a branded cable (Van DH, Audioquest, QED and etc) from your friends and compare with a home brand cable. Let's the music tell you. The point would like to stress here is..the cable price might not justify the sounds improvement. However, it does make a difference." Engineering analysis tells me you're wrong. Nonetheless, I'm going to take you up on your offer, and I'll be the 1st to apologise if I can detect a difference. At the same time, I will be upgrading my CD player to compare with my vintage ones. This should provide the ultimate tests. |
|
Bronze Member Username: StarbucksPost Number: 21 Registered: Feb-06 | Eric, I believe in what I am hearing and My Believe tell me that Engineering analysis may sometimes be wrong. There is another idea cross my mind. How about test interconnect from a single brand but different ranges. Take Audioquest as an example, different range such as CopperHead, KingCobra, Colorado and etc. (Rememeber to use a higher grade CDP and amp). I suppose u can't find difference as there are all Interconnect. But please do try out.....we will wait for your analysis. |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 33 Registered: Jun-07 | Nuck "Frank, I see no issue with fresh bare wire, as opposed to crimped wire. Kept clean(the inside crush does) I see no need for crimps.(they are crushed, too), and anana plugs. All of these work well, so long as we keep them tight.But of course, we need to keep them tight, agreed?" Ask any military engineer or tech, and only crimping is allowed for lugs.}} |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 34 Registered: Jun-07 | Starbucks "Eric, I believe in what I am hearing and My Believe tell me that Engineering analysis may sometimes be wrong. There is another idea cross my mind. How about test interconnect from a single brand but different ranges. Take Audioquest as an example, different range such as CopperHead, KingCobra, Colorado and etc. (Rememeber to use a higher grade CDP and amp). I suppose u can't find difference as there are all Interconnect. But please do try out.....we will wait for your analysis." Starbucks: If you were able to post your question in English, I might be able to answer it. A dictionary at your side always helps. |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 35 Registered: Jun-07 | Nuck "Eric, you want fries with that? Break it down, give us focus, give us links and examples of rooms. You will get answers, but not to the meaning of life, for heavens sakes!" Try asking specific questions - your remarks are as fluid as water. As for room sizes, ask an interior decorator or your girlfriend. |
|
Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 700 Registered: Apr-06 | "4. For the average home-user (I have a 100 watt integrated amp), 16 AWG does the job nicely, although I was abusive and bought some 14 AWG (it was at a price I couldn't refuse). 5. For my 25 watt integrated hybrid tube amp, I'm using 16 AWG." The power of your amplifier isn't the reason you get thicker wire... |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 36 Registered: Jun-07 | Starbucks: I apologise for copying your entire post, but I still don't know how to use this system (some Engineer huh?). Your original post is in bold quotes, while mine is in bold, italisized red. The intent of joining this forum was to learn and contribute where I thought I was competent or knowledgable enough to do so, and not to engage in confrontation of any sort, to which I am adverse. But I certainly do enjoy good dry humour, especially at my expense (excuse the Canadian spelling). Apparently, my presentation skills have been lacking and I have offended a great many people, the reason for which I don't have a clue. I can only conjecture that it's because I have challenged their conventional belief system or the equipment that they hold dear to their hearts. Or perhaps it's that because they want detail where detail is wanting. Challenging dogma is my intent, and I shall not waver from that stance; criticizing the equipment that people have chosen was not intentional, but rather coincidental, and if I have done so, so be it (no apologies). If you on the other hand criticize my meagre equipment, I am always glad to listen so long as you have the evidence to back your claims. Arrogant, unresearched, off-handed, and unsubstantiated diatribe only fortify and demonstrate your ignorance, and this forum seems to be a central depot for such. Now for my philosophy: 1.If I learned that I could improve the performance my audio system by a measly 1% by buying wire at say $10.00/ft. as opposed to $0.50/ft, I would jump at the oppolrtunity. The investment is too small to quivel with. 2.If I learned that I could improve the performance of my audio system by 1% by replacing polyprolene capacitors with polystyrene capacitors, I would effect the modification immediately. Again, the investment is too small to quivel with. 3.If I learned that I could improve the performance of my tube amplifier by buying Russian-made tubes at 4x the conventional cost, I think I might, depending on cost, forgo that opportunity - some tubes run $200 each. 4.If I learned that I could improve the performance of my audio system by exploring the advancements in CD players which have occurred in the last 15 years, I would do so, and in fact, am about to do so. For the curious, the contenders are the latest OppoDigital and the Cambridge 640, although the latter seems to have too few features for a ridiculous price (but that's for me and the salesman to hash out), while the former seems to contain everything but the kitchen sink, and seems to be too good for the money.. The ist one you probably never heard of, and that's a good sign that I'm on the track of a product to which the public is technologically ignorant (turns out that I could be completely wrong, but at least I'm willing to investigate). I think by now you get the general idea. Append any appelation you wish to my name (cheap, frugal, miserly, etc.), but don't insult me, for I have a venemous tongue. My goal is to increase the performance/value ratio. (I have a wife and five children, and money doesn't flow out of my butt). High-priced glossies don't impress me, but some specs do. That's why when I see $15,000 Krell, and a $10,000 Linn, I cringe. Incidentally, I did have the opportunity to A/B the Krell/Linn, and my $750 Intgrated NAD. My conclusion was that they both sounded didtinctly different, but one wasn't better than the other. And I would challenge ANYONE to say differently, because without the source material (i.e. the live performer), you haven't got a clue to what you were listening to. As for Starbucks, I couldn't agree more with that which he has stated. "Hifi is for us to listen using our own ears and not relying on the equipment statistic result. Listening to audio, we seek for our own requirement and satisfaction: whether the vocal is clear enough? whether the sound is warm enough or too warm ? whether music is detail? whether the soundstage is good? whether the music from the system is too fast or too slow? whether the treble, mid or bass mean you standard and etc. Can a Test Equipment tell u all this rather than using your own ears? Can a test equipment result comfort you without you listening to the sound? I believe a good hifi system rely so much on CDP, Amp, Interconnect and speaker cable which are the basic component. Then some people can comes in with a better power cable, power stabliser, jumper and etc. The point is whether the amount spend on the above are worth the improvement to the sound quality (example 10%-30% better than before or just 5%). Some may really marginal improvement only. But comes to the end, it also relying on HOW SENSITIVE are UR EARS and your spending power. N years ago, Minidisc is a fancy thing. A Sony report showed that the Minidisc that you record from a CD maintained the 100% quality or if there is difference also not within ur hearing ability. Then the report also attached many graph/statistic that illustrates the result from Tester Equipment. Last year I took my Minidisc Deck out and plug it to my hifi system via Audioquest Columbia. Gosh, the Minidisc quality is really out, not acceptable. But the statistic result saying the quality should be the same. Else is my Sony Minidisc Deck is not good enough, which I believe not. Eric, I don't know much about electronic terms and the technical part. I am just a pure listener to music and differentiate good and bad music using my ears, which is very subjective. But this is what everyone doing everday. Earlier I was using a so so interconnect. Then later I switch to Audioquest KingCobtra with the exactly same setup, position and everything. The first time, I turned on the music, I knew sounds has been upgraded. Then later I changed to Audioquest Columbia interconnect. Wow, the sounds get better but frankly speaking the improvement is not very significant. But a lover can still appreciate the improvement. Utimately, we listening to music, seeking a very wonderful voice that can melt our heart. Don't so particular about all those statistic and so on...get a chance to borrow a high grade quality interconnect and test it out with ur heart and ears. (at least u are financially safe if you can't hear the difference) One of my friend asked me why I need an expensive system and why not go for Altec Lansing. My friend said he heard no different. My advise to him is ..stay with ur Altec Lansing...dun go for Hifi...!!!!" Cheers" |
|
Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 703 Registered: Apr-06 | "Apparently, my presentation skills have been lacking and I have offended a great many people, the reason for which I don't have a clue." Statements such as this: "4. If you follow this avenue of thought, you might very well be on your way to becoming an Engineer, presuming you matriculate from Grade 12. 5. That's it for education today. Remember, study, study, study." Might have something to do with it. |
|
Bronze Member Username: StarbucksPost Number: 22 Registered: Feb-06 | "If you were able to post your question in English, I might be able to answer it. A dictionary at your side always helps." Hi Eric, English is my 3rd language. I believe anybody that know English can understand my English, even though a bit broken. If anyone of you can't understand, please let me know. I will repost it....Thanks. |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 39 Registered: Jun-07 | Stephen Munz: "The power of your amplifier isn't the reason you get thicker wire..." 1. That depends. Let's take an example. You have a 1,000 wpc amp (which if it's worth its salt should be able to play continuously at that power level, i.e. 25V at 40 amps DC into a 0.625 ohm load). When cranked, it puts out say 25V. That means 1,000W/25V = 40 amps. From the Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas for American Wire Gauge, the chassis wiring table says that you should be using 12 AWG wire in free air, which provides 41 amps. 2. The saving grace is that we never play a 1000 wpc amp at DC. and remember, that's per channel. 3. If we play at 100 wpc, then we can drop the wire AWG to 23, which is pretty sensible. 4. So unless we are playing at extremes, you're right, wire AWG doesn't matter much. |
|
Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 706 Registered: Apr-06 | Even with a 100wpc amp, there can be more than sufficient reason to need more than 16AWG wiring. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm While not everybody agrees with some of what Mr. Russell has to say about exotic wiring, he provides good information about wiring. You'll note, he doesn't even take into account the power of the amplifier, as generally speaking, even with a 1000 watt amplifier, you will rarely output 1000 watts of anything under most conditions. And of course nobody in their right mind would match a 1000 watt amplifier with 24 gauge wire.... |
|
Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 707 Registered: Apr-06 | Also of note while it is noted in the article, I think it requires due emphasis that a lot of speakers that are rated "8 Ohm" by manufacturers can dip to 3 ohms and below within the audible spectrum. Without complete measurements for every speaker on the market, the general consensus is better safe than sorry when it comes to thicker wire gauge, simply because it isn't price prohibitive to spend an extra 5-10 cents a foot for 12 or 14 gauge over 16. |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 42 Registered: Jun-07 | Stephen Munz: "Even with a 100wpc amp, there can be more than sufficient reason to need more than 16AWG wiring. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm While not everybody agrees with some of what Mr. Russell has to say about exotic wiring, he provides good information about wiring. You'll note, he doesn't even take into account the power of the amplifier, as generally speaking, even with a 1000 watt amplifier, you will rarely output 1000 watts of anything under most conditions. And of course nobody in their right mind would match a 1000 watt amplifier with 24 gauge wire...." Stephen: 1. Excellent article - worthy of keeping and intense study. 2. I almost always use 14 AWG, but now I know the reason why. 3. And as I stated, 23 AWG would be suitable for 100 wpc, although I woud never use it. 4. Just a side note which I may have already mentioned. I'm a military designer and now integrator. When doing harness design, wires are always crimped to spade lugs, we NEVER use solder, or a combination of solder and crimping. We've adapted this practice for about 15 yrs now. |
|
Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 709 Registered: Apr-06 | Why no solder? It can be useful in making an airtight connection between the spades and the copper wiring. |
|
Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 242 Registered: Dec-06 | Starbucks, Your english is fine. Eric's Napoleon complex is the problem. |
|
Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2215 Registered: Sep-04 | Eric, Yes I have heard of this and I have observed similar techniques used in some audiophile equipment. Stephen, the problem with solder is that you can't tell easily whether you've created a dry joint. Crimping guarantees the connection since there is a mechanical coupling, otherwise the wire would simply come away from the lug. In military applications, the wear rate is pretty high and maintenance is a relative surety. Therefore oxidation through ageing is unlikely to be an issue in these applications. In the domestic market, maintenance is almost unheard of and oxidation through ageing is a genuine issue. This is why crimp and solder techniques are prevalent, if not universal. Regards, Frank. |
|
Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 718 Registered: Apr-06 | Good to know Frank. |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomaccoCarp, ON Canada Post Number: 44 Registered: Jun-07 | To all: this post has been repeated and edited further down (too stupid to reference Post #). Feel free to copy and insert into areas that you deem appropriate, but forgo the temptation of attempting to demonstrate your wit and intellect with snide remarks. I have eaten crow, continue to eat it, posted this note with humility, and I hope, but certainly do not expect, that you will accept it in the manner in which it was written. As mentioned at the end of this piece, I am always short on appropriate words, but these are the best that I can come up with. That's it for my apology, or as some may refer to it, my meagre defense. You may choose to accept it, in which case I would be pleased (bury the hatchet, but preferrably not in my skull), or you can choose to reject it on your own personal grounds. If you reject it, I hope you will give it due future considerations. That's your choice, and I can't, nor am I about to try and change it. The intent of joining this forum was to learn and to contribute to areas where I thought I was competent or knowledgable enough to do so, and not to engage in confrontation of any sort, to which I am adverse. But I certainly do enjoy good dry humour, especially at my expense (excuse the Canadian spelling). Apparently, my presentation skills have been lacking and I have offended a great many people, the reason for which I don't have a clue. I can only conjecture that it's because I have challenged their conventional belief system or the equipment that they hold dear to their hearts. Or perhaps it's that because they want detail where detail is wanting. Challenging dogma is my intent, and I shall not waver from that stance; criticizing the equipment that people have chosen was not intentional, but rather coincidental, and if I have done so, so be it (no apologies). If you on the other hand criticize my meagre equipment, I am always glad to listen so long as you have the evidence to back your claims. Arrogant, unresearched, off-handed, and unsubstantiated diatribe only fortify and demonstrate your ignorance, and in some instances, this forum "appears" to be a central depot for such (perhaps I miss the humour most of the time). Now for my new-found philosophy, which I learned in this Forum: 1. If I learned that I could improve the performance my audio system by a measly 1% by buying wire at say $10.00/ft. as opposed to $0.50/ft, I would jump at the oppolrtunity. The investment is too small to quivel with. 2. If I learned that I could improve the performance of my audio system by 1% by replacing polyprolene capacitors with polystyrene capacitors, I would effect the modification immediately. Again, the investment is too small to quivel with. 3. If I learned that I could improve the performance of my tube amplifier by buying Russian-made tubes at a reasonable cost, I think I might, depending on cost - some tubes run $200 each. 4. If I learned that I could improve the performance of my audio system by exploring the advancements in CD players which have occurred in the last 15 years, I would do so, and in fact, am about to do so. For the curious, the contenders are the latest OppoDigital and the Cambridge 640, although the latter seems to have too few features for a ridiculous price (but that's for me and the salesman to hash out), while the former seems to contain everything but the kitchen sink, and seems to be too good for the money. The ist one you probably never heard of, and that's a good sign that I'm on the track of a product to which the public is technologically ignorant (turns out that I could be completely wrong, but at least I'm willing to investigate). And since i'm considering buying this product for audio only (couldn't care less about the video), would one of the forum members tell me how I can apparentlty get so much for so little. A former high-priced, glossy magazine salesman tells me that they can afford to do so because it's made in China (what isn't), and they sell direct on-line (so do many others). I think by now you get the general idea. Append any appelation you may wish to my name (cheap, frugal, miserly, etc.), but don't insult me, for I have a venemous tongue (that's not a threat). My goal is to increase the performance/value ratio of my audio system. (I have a wife and five children, and money doesn't flow out of my butt). High-priced glossies don't impress me, but some specs do. That's why when I see a $15,000 Krell, and a $10,000 Linn, I cringe. Incidentally, I did have the opportunity to A/B the Krell/Linn, and my $750 Integrated NAD (using the same speakers, forget which ones, but the total equipment cost was $100,000). My conclusion was that they both sounded distinctly different, and I'd definitely take the Krell/Linn setup, but not for the money (maybe if someone gave me a lobotomy, which some may argue I've already had). And I would challenge ANYONE to say differently, because without the source material (i.e. the live performer), you haven't got a clue to what you were listening to. The ONLY thing you can say is that I like Product A over Product B, over Product C, etc., but for the price differential, Product B wins hands-down. That's it for my apology. You may choose to accept it, in which case I would be very happy, or you can choose to reject it on your own personal grounds. If you reject it, I hope you will give it future consideration. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7607 Registered: Dec-04 | Fine, Eric, just join in with the rest of us. Ain't a lot of newbs here, my best suggestion is to check profiles. You will find a lot lot of varied kits here, and a lot of members with a lot of kits. That's why we are here, no? Relax, have a Scotch and what is on your stereo now! ps. Jan will pester you to death, y'all gotta get over that one. |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics