I had a UPS backup in use for my desktop pc at home. Lightning hit the transformer 2 houses down and my computer and monitor were fried. Tv's and old integrated amp were fine. Process that info however you want.
Unless you live in an area which suffers from electric storms and the like, don't use a surge protector. Just go with a good ordinary multiway block. Surge protectors are designed to provide a nice steady supply. A HiFi (particularly and amplifier) tries to draw different amounts of current from the mains at a moment's notice. The two are at odds with each other, and in my experience the effect of a surge protector is to kill the life of the sound.
Just go with a cheap surge protector then Mike, better get insurance for your gear though as you may be soon replacing it. While an amplifiers power supply can and does vary in amounts of current and V supplied to it's outputs it CANNOT excede the amount allowed by it's fused power supply because it cannot produce more power than it consumes and the wall outlet it is connected will provide ,just ask any amplifier designer or electronics engineer and they will confirm this.Since a typical surge protector/line conditioner will allow up to 1800W @120V(USA) without any limitation the conviction that a sp/lc limits current or dynamics for that matter is completely unfounded. To believe otherwise at the least demonstrates a lack of understanding of electricity and electronics. The typical response time of a good line conditioner is in the single digit ns range far,far,far faster than the ability of a good human ear to detect which is about .25 seconds. This is not about "trusting your ears" it is about science and electronic design principles and the dangers of power fluctuations and spikes which are a widely known and scientifically proven phenomonon. Stryvn when lightning runs in a house/apt. it is a totally unpredictable event,sort of like an automobile crash where sometimes things happen that seem to "defy" the laws of physics. I have heard of it damaging two tv's in a house that weren't even on while another that was playing in another room was unharmed. Computers are also more sensitive than other equipment since they are constructed primarily of ic's,which are very sensitive to voltage fluctuations, rather than mostly discrete components(seperate capacitors,resistors,diodes etc.) that most audio equipment uses. Differing viewpoints for you to consider Mike, before for you plug your equipment into a garbage surge protector that will offer little more protection that plugging your gear directly into a wall-no protection.
I have heard from several people that their stuff sounded better when taken off the line conditioner and/or surge protector. I plug my gear into the wall outlet.
And I plug my insurance man's wallet every year. He's been out to my house and we both understand where the noise that I so treasure comes from. If anything happens to my dear setup, it's time for him to plug MY wallet.
I am not saying I am right or wrong but, I lose no sleep in this arrangement.
I don't really want to argue Frank we have been down this road before but the opinions of a few hi-fi elitists is not going to sway me due to the countless numbers of other people who are not audiophiles who report marked improvements(some dramatic) when using a sp/lc. Like I said the human ear cannot detect a break in sound of more than about .25 sec this is a quantum leap slower than a sp/lc would react to a transient surge. Most surges happen in the micro-second range,are contained and power is back to normal within a few micro-sec this is monumentally too fast for the human ear(brain) to detect even subliminally.
Eric, the point is not about what ocurrs during a spike. The point is what happens any time other than a during very large surge. I believe in protecting my equipment and in most cases in removing crud from the incoming AC but not everything I can place in line can perform to the same spec and many will adversely affect my system's performance.
Here in Southern California, we mostly have just cruddy power. Out in the deserts they can have some lightning, even in summer. (dry season) I can only speak to one power conditioner and that is the Panamax, which made a bigtime improvement to my stereo AND tv. Sound cleaner/out of a 'darker' background. I even had to slightly change the positions of the speakers to take advantage of the improved imaging. The TV, likewise was improved. While the effect was less dramatic than to the sound, it was also noted, even by my wife, who could generally doesn't care.
To protect your gear, some probably pretty spendy, it would be a good idea to get some protection. One good ZAP will take you out.
To protect your gear, some probably pretty spendy, it would be a good idea to get some protection. One good ZAP will take you out.
Reads kinda like a cndom add.
I am not going to sacrifice great sound for little payback. A ups for the gizmos, amp into the wall, let the torroid handle the peaks, or the insurance company.
Ask Mike Wodek if the conditioners can suck the life out of a system.
Asking Mike whether the Monster Cable conditioner was a wise choice would be more to the point. It has fancy lights that dance around, but once again Noel Lee has made some large cash off very little effort.
Actually Jan it's not the huge spikes that get your gear as these are rare, it is the constant small short duration transients that hurt your gear over the long haul. My point is that the belief that a conditioner somehow "slows" or impedes the sound doesn't hold water since the conditioner operates at a speed exponentially faster than any processor or dac and would not have any audible effect. Also Nuck a transformer cannot operate above it's maximum KVA or VA in the case of home audio type transformers for very long. We removed a 14.5KVA 600V 3ph transformer from a wall at work that had burned up. We opened this 150lb behemoth and the secondary windings were frayed since the core totally collapsed, overcurrent condition for to long destroyed it.
I have used a power conditioner with a 23kva rating (Isotek Titan) and it still affected the sound adversely. It's the best I've tried yet, but I'd still elect to plug an amplifier into the wall. As to source components, it depends on the system's earthing configuration (for example, a Naim system is star earthed to the earth point in the CD player).
You can spout numbers 'til doomsday, but I rely on my ears to judge whether you've spouted the right numbers or not.
ER - I understand your point here and I understand this situation to be very location and situation dependent even though all of our AC services are becoming increasingly more polluted with grunge as more and more devices get added on in every household, garage and vehicle that passes your home. But, if I remember correctly, many of the lower priced surge protectors still have problems with these constant low level surges, spikes and just plain crap coming in through our AC service.
First, the lower priced surge protectors are not set to re-direct to ground until a spike of fairly large voltage is present, which means they allow many of these small low level bursts through the line, and only an over/under voltage maintenance circuit will adjust for these conditions. That circuit is typically not found on low priced pieces. Or, alternatively, the circuit is set to clamp and then release and cannot immediately, within nano-to-microseconds as would be required by the spike's transient nature, clamp down again until the circuit has calmed down sufficiently to work a second time. In this case the "protection" against spikes and surges is unavailable as the circuit cannot react fast enough to the second, third and fourth blip in the line to adequately protect against a majority of line problems. Finally, any equipment that is not supplied with a dedicated (third pin) ground, i.e. a two pin AC plug which would include large numbers of consumer audio gear, discards almost all of this small surge level protection as the voltage cannot effectively be shunted to ground since ground and return are shared in the two conductor AC line. Remember, ER, in consumer audio we are not dealing with three phase systems where you might typically find a 150 Lb. transformer. The obvious and audible benefits of dedicated lines indicates most homes are not wired for maximum benefit to a serious listener. Neither are most surge protectors nor line conditioners.
I live in Tornado Alley and I have sold innumerable surge/line protection devices. I think for many listeners these are indispensable items since Americans hate to be inconvenienced by the inability to watch "American Idol" on their biggest TV. But, at the same time, I don't deny the adverse affects these units will likely have on truly high end equipment of any stripe. I always sold these sub $500 units with the guarantee that should they not provide an improvement in picture quality and sound quality, the client could return the unit no questions asked. I also sold these units knowing that particular client was not interested in many of the facets of "sound quality" that someone listening through more revealing equipment might consider essential.
mike, try looking at panamax or some of Adcom's or Rotel's older line condionters. i personally prefer to have the $5,000,000 replacement insurance that panamax offers with their conditioners. monster is junk.
If they work, as I hope mine (not panamax) does, no one would have to make a claim. I don't think our surge protector degrades the SQ, but I won't take the chance of not having it. Not after losing a rear pro Pioneer TV because I didn't have one.
Yes Jan I realize the 3ph industrial transformer is not really relevant here, I just using that to demonstrate that even something built like a tank can be destroyed realitively easy and quickly and even very robust built home audio equipment is still at risk. I haven't seen a sp/lc yet of poor or good quality that doesn't have a 3 prong plug. If your outlets aren't grounded then there is really no point in using one as this would defeat the whole purpose of a unit, and consumers must realize this with the purchase of one. I'll concede with you and Frank that an sp/lc may not be ideal for the highest end systems- tubes are a bit less sensitive to voltage fluctuations than ss equipment. For low- to mid fi equipment I still insist that they are a must especially if an expensive tv is involved. Although I've recomended the Monster units to a few posters in the past,to be honest I don't really care for them either- the amount of factory refurbished units available every year is good clue as to their ultimate quality. Any way I have enjoyed this discussion and wish you guys well.- E.R.
Jan, your quote below, is it in a NUTSHELL. I have a panamax 5510 w/isolation transformer and simply wouldn't be without it. This unit was at the KiloBuck level....does that improve your opinion? Some listeners either don't care/can't hear the real nuances and/or don't have equipment of that resolution. In any event, Nuck's cndom remark is absolutely TRUE. One good ZAP will take you out! I've had power supply related downtime caused by the power company, who fixed the broken stuff.
The REAL audio guys are kind of stuck, aren't they? I mean, you either protect, suffer some loss of quality or plug 'er in and hope for the best. Having lived in BOTH the Tornado Belt,-Chicago- and in Florida, the T-Storm capital of America, I'll opt for protection. Nothing ever seems to work the same, once the smoke has been let out.
Go Simon, Go....away.............
Jan Said:: I live in Tornado Alley and I have sold innumerable surge/line protection devices. I think for many listeners these are indispensable items since Americans hate to be inconvenienced by the inability to watch "American Idol" on their biggest TV. But, at the same time, I don't deny the adverse affects these units will likely have on truly high end equipment of any stripe. I always sold these sub $500 units with the guarantee that should they not provide an improvement in picture quality and sound quality, the client could return the unit no questions asked. I also sold these units knowing that particular client was not interested in many of the facets of "sound quality" that someone listening through more revealing equipment might consider essential.
The other alternative is to unplug your equipment whenever, and I mean whenever, a storm might occur. People used to complain that Dish and Direct TV would loose the signal during a severe storm. I used to suggest that if the weather was so bad their satellite lost transmission, they probably shouldn't be watching TV anyway.
Insurance won't always pay for replacement and as you said nothing ever works right after a direct hit. Unplug it from the wall. If lightning has travelled a few miles to get to your house a 1/32" gap in the switch is not going to stop 100,000 volts.
Well certainly sounds like a mixed discussion. I just got my equipment and used a HP surge protector. By the way the sound is awesome. I got an NAD M3, Splender 8e speakers and a Rega Appolo CD. Sounds amazing! The guy from the store said to never turn off the Rega CD player. The manual doesn't support that. He said it sounds better after it's been on a month! What do you guys think.
Frank, Nuck, and Jan convinced me, which I then physically proved to myself, that my Monster gear was bad medicine for my Sound Quality (SQ). I still think the voltage regulator and line conditioner protector do wonders for my video.
I like others have my amps going directly into seperate lines / outlets. My CD player, turntable, pre-amp, surround receiver, DVD player, and plasma TV are all protected. I did try my Panamax with my Carver amp and found it to degrade the sound as well. My soundstage and the layers of detail greatly expanded when I pulled my amps out of my Monster gear.
I know you are loving your new set up, but try moving the amp out of the protector into a different line / outlet and see if you hear any differences. Let us know.
Thanks Nuck I've conceded a sp/lc may not be ideal for high end systems. In fact tube based gear should probably be plugged straight into the wall since tubes can operate properly even with a considerable variation in AC input. At the risk of repeating myself I am "gonna stick to my guns" and still feel that a sp/lc is a must have for a low to mid-fi system, especially if a video source is involved. Perhaps one day we will all(Jan,Frank,Art,Kegger,Nuck,MR,Edster,Berny,John A,MW,Stu,myself and whoever else I left out will all jump on a thread at the same time that would great!So different schedules, anyway best of luck to you all and hopefully many good listening experiences ahead.
Gentlemen, While new to the thread, I feel compelled to remind folks of a few basics. First, the power supply portion of your audio equipment is NOT, even remotely, an audio component. As long as it receives a constant 60 HZ, sinusoidal wave form of the proper amplitude (120V or so) it doesn't care what it's plugged into. Check your wall outlet with a ocilloscope with your system at full volume. See any changes to the wave form that relate to the music? If "Yes", you've got problems no filter or conditioner can fix. If "No", perform the same test with the AC line conditioner in place. Put the o-scope on a spare outlet on the conditioner. See any deformation under max load? If "Yes", make sure the conditioner is rated to support at least twice your total amperage load. Four times is not excessive if your goal is "purism". To be absoloutly critical, use a dual trace o-scope. One probe before the conditioner and one on the conditioner. Overlay the traces and there is no question. If this test shows no evidence of wave deformation or voltage sag, your equipment is operating optimally and your ears aren't.
Second, while there are many good line conditioner/surge supressors available, don't waste a dime on anything without a UL 1449 Grade A, Class 1, Mode 1 rating. If the mfg can't document it, move on. Talk is cheap. Measurement and documentation separates the wheat from the chaff.
Third, most designs depend on Metal Oxide Varistors for their protective properties. Beware! These are sacrificial components! The more the unit protects your system, the less it protects your system. Eventually it doesn't protect your system!
The best soloution I've found is Surgex from New Frontiers Electronics. Go to their website and read the Knowledge Base Library. Let's all read ALL the papers there and then have an informed discussion.
TL - I don't happen to find your observation condescending but I do take issue with a few items. First, " ... the power supply portion of your audio equipment is NOT, even remotely, an audio component." I would heartily disagree, most especially in the case of any piece of equipment that applies gain to the audio signal and to a lesser extent any component which does rectification of the wave form entering the power supply, which would be almost every component in the system. In the case of a synchronous motor on a turntable, I would also disagree that the power supply portion of the incoming signal is not of importance.
In any gain stage, the output is essentially a modulated power supply. What you hear from your pre amp and power amp particularly is the result of the signal modulating of the power supply. If the power supply is starved for current by the surge protector or the incoming voltage is infected with FR or EM interference, the result will be a poorly modulated audio signal. As you point out aging MOV's in the line will ultimately affect the sound quality of the component downstream. Therefore, I would ask you to rethink your comments regarding the value of the power supply in relation to signal quality.
While I find your admonition regarding UL listings admirable and useful, I would hope no one is selling a high end component in the US without a UL rating.
Finally, let's have a count of who among us has a dual trace oscilliscope to hook to their system.
I thought so.
Otherwise, welcome to the forum TL. What's your background for coming here?
The whole debate of whether or not to use a power conditioner or surge protector to me is a matter of trade offs; not unlike any other component in our systems. One of the biggest factors is how good/bad the quality of power going into your system is.
In my house, I have problems I think are related to voltage. When things like the refridgerator, washing machine, vacuum cleaner turn on, the lights dim a little. While I can control most of those things in my apartment, I have no control (nor do I really want any) over what my landlord does downstairs. His washing machine going into the spin cycle will cause my bathroom light to dim a little.
If this is phenominon is occuring in the rest of the house, I think its pretty safe to say it happens to the outlet my stereo is plugged into. These 'Brown outs' (I think thats what they're called) supposedly have a very bad effect on anything electrical.
To my understanding, sugre protectors and most line conditioners don't protect against this. A while back, I bought an APC UPS for my computer to protect it. It does EMI and RFI filtering, and voltage regulation.
I also bought a few different Monster power conditioners (without voltage regulation) and tried them out on my stereo. They always made the sound worse. Dynamics were limited and my soundstage was closed in. On my TV, my picture always seemed a little unfocused and fuzzy. They claimed to improve picture quality.
Because I'm a little slow, it took me a little while to try the APC UPS with my stereo. My dynamics and soundstage were equal to what they were when plugged directly into the wall, and the little EMI and RFI I had were eliminated.
Every once in a while, I hear a beep from the UPS. I guess its letting me know its doing its job and earning its keep. It gives a single beep and a light goes on when its correcting the voltage. There's no change in the sound when this happens.
Living in the North East, we get our fair share of thunderstorms. This combined with the voltage problems in my house makes it well worth it for me to have the UPS. Even if it limited my sound quality a little (which to my ears doesn't), I wouldn't take it out of the system. If it killed my sound, I'd keep looking until I found an acceptable one.
I guess the trade off is either have a slightly less dynamic system or have it play to its potential and hope for the best.
If anyone here needs good power protection, try out an APC UPS. You can pick them up at any big box store. If it doesn't work out for you, you can always bring it back. They're a hell of a lot cheaper than the audiophile power conditioners and voltage regulators. Just make sure its power rating is a lot higher than your systems requirements.
Jan, Thanks for forgiving my bombast! Of course, you're entirely correct, the power supply of a piece of audio gear is critical to the performance of the unit. In fact, now that the audio world is tireing of bickering over the relative merits of Classes A, A-B, D, H, G and (sorta) T, the keen minds are now evaluating Power Factor Correction power supplies. The "oomphf" of a massive Linear PS with the effiency of a High-Speed Switching PS.....and....sitdown...immune to all but the most extreme line voltage fluxuations. My poorly made opening statement about the PS not being and audio component was to differentiate it from being part of the audio path. It is critical to the path but not part of it. After reading so much discussion of the degradation of sound due to a power supply accessory it seemed to beg clarification. Which I didn't. Sorry to all offended. In answer to the inquiry about my involvement in audio, I first sold hifi at a McIntosh/Klipsch/Yamaha/Advent/Dahlquist/Allison dealer in 1975. Moved into Pro Audio in 1979, Corporate Sound and Lighting in 1985 and have been doing Commercial systems since 1993. I stumbled into this group while researching old A/D/S amplifiers for my home. An eBay item.
I'm rather pleased that an audiophile neophyte such as myself could ask a rather simple question which has resulted in a long, detailed and quite spirited debate.
living in the north east i have to live with the fear of electronics frying. i have had a few routers fried among other things that were a nuisance to replace. i dont want to hook up a couple thousand dollars worth of equipment and have something fried because of a little distortion. i could unplug stuff but i have something called furniture which is annoying to move around to unplug things since the whole point of it is to hide wires and make things look nice. theres also something called limited time so when i want to listen to my music i dont want to spend more time than necessary just to turn the stuff on. i want SQ as much as any other guy here, but i have my limits on ridiculous steps for it.
Unplugging is 100% protection. If I lived in Florida, or some other T-Storm hotspot, I'd be tempted to just unplug the HOUSE on the way out the door. Here on the 'left coast', it is a little less predictable than the '4pm storm' I got used to in Florida but still, when some squall line is moving onshore and there MAY be some lightning, what do I do? Run home from work, 25 miles each way just to unplug stuff? My decidely Mid-Fi system was really helped by a power conditioner.
I want some 'double blind' data on conditioners 'choking the life' out of a system. And I don't mean just being able to tell that something has changed in your system. I mean, go to an unknown, hi-quality system.....listen for a while or a couple of days. Install or Uninstall (by 3rd party) a good Power Conditioner without telling the listener what was or wasn't done. Than compare. Better? Worse? No change? I know there are MANY people with MUCH better ears than I. However, I still see many ostensibly Hi-End review systems with Power Conditioners. These guys are convinced, or are they just shills?
No, they are not shills. High end equipment reviewers have access to high end AC products. They get to hear the results of more than a few of them each year and typically have the ability to live with several units for an extended period of time that would far exceed any reasonable audition period if the unit had been purchased from a dealer. When a "better" unit appears on their door step, they might easily have the luxury of sending back the one they had previously thought "best". With all these advantages along with industry price accomodation it would be unreasonable for most high end audio reviewers to not have very good and rightly expensive AC products.
Reviewers having access to all the latest/greatest makes perfect sense. So, what's a regular guy to do? I want to protect my stuff, minimize downtime and have the best bang/buck ratio. Heck, I could easily spend more on a CD player than my entire system is worth. I could spend more on a system then my HOUSE is worth. I would think that anyone with that kind of cash flow would be SERIOUSLY interested in the best....in terms of protection and sound quality available.
This is how Monster can sell stuff that in mid-fi on up systems, may actually degrade things. Some guy looks at 7 to 10 large for a complete system, from BigScreen to speakers and quivers at the thought of part of it going up in smoke.
If I didn't have a fortune in camera equipment, maybe I'd go for the Hi-Dollar power protection!
"This is how Monster can sell stuff that in mid-fi on up systems, may actually degrade things."
While Monster is one of best known ones that do this, they're not the only ones. A lot of supposed tweaks and gadgets can degrade sound. Some may improve one area, but at the cost of a lot of others.
My advice is experiment with stuff you can return without penalty. This can be stuff from big box stores or dealer demo gear that they'll let you borrow.
I'm an advocate of my APC UPS. But just because it works out well for me doesn't mean it won't for everyone or anyone else. Everyones ears, rooms, electricity, and systems are different.
I am pulling out the monster bar from the stereo this weekend, leaving just the tv and dvd on it. Everything else goes into one circuit, 20A in 12g wire to the panel. I have yet to decide on a 230-120 isolation XO.
